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Gold Terran here who is looking to try something different from his usual one-base 1-1-1 openers in TvT.
(At the time of my previous post in this threadm, I was in silver - the marine hellion elevator which was recommended to me was one of the builds which helped me get to gold!)
Three questions:
1) What is the safest fast expand build (i.e., CC-first, 15 Gas FE or Reaper FE) in terms of having the most units out to defend 1-base pushes (namely, marine hellion elevator & banshee)? I'd like to try my hand at more macro-oriented builds but am concerned about being able to hold off aggressive 1-base openers. (It would be particularly helpful if folks can recommend pro games from which I could plagiarize fast expand builds that are good in the current meta)
2) In the current meta, is it a bad idea to go CC-first on 2p maps?
3) What is our target infrastructure on 3-base? This question isn't specific to fast expand openers - just a general question; at the moment, my TvTs rarely get to this point =P
Based on some spawning tool research re: question # 2, it seems that we should aim for: - 1 tech-labbed factory - 1 reactored starport - 5-7 barracks: 1 techlabbed / 4 reactored if opponent is going marien tank OR 5 tech-labbed / 2 reactored if opponnet is going mech
Does this look correct? This is based off only a handful of games (mostly those of Polt/Taeja) so sample size is not great. In particular, I was surprised that pros rarely got more than 1 factory when going bio tank. Again, I may have looked at games that were outliers.
On June 23 2015 04:01 dchaudh wrote: Gold Terran here who is looking to try something different from his usual one-base 1-1-1 openers in TvT.
(At the time of my previous post in this threadm, I was in silver - the marine hellion elevator which was recommended to me was one of the builds which helped me get to gold!)
Three questions:
1) What is the safest fast expand build (i.e., CC-first, 15 Gas FE or Reaper FE) in terms of having the most units out to defend 1-base pushes (namely, marine hellion elevator & banshee)? I'd like to try my hand at more macro-oriented builds but am concerned about being able to hold off aggressive 1-base openers. (It would be particularly helpful if folks can recommend pro games from which I could plagiarize fast expand builds that are good in the current meta)
2) In the current meta, is it a bad idea to go CC-first on 2p maps?
3) What is our target infrastructure on 3-base? This question isn't specific to fast expand openers - just a general question; at the moment, my TvTs rarely get to this point =P
Based on some spawning tool research re: question # 2, it seems that we should aim for: - 1 tech-labbed factory - 1 reactored starport - 5-7 barracks: 1 techlabbed / 4 reactored if opponent is going marien tank OR 5 tech-labbed / 2 reactored if opponnet is going mech
Does this look correct? This is based off only a handful of games (mostly those of Polt/Taeja) so sample size is not great. In particular, I was surprised that pros rarely got more than 1 factory when going bio tank. Again, I may have looked at games that were outliers.
1) the safest is probably reaper expand cause it doesn't die immediatly to anything and the scout allows you to adapt in time. 12 rax 15 gaz is safe too but it's much harder to defend proxy reapers with this build. Gaz first allows you to expand decently fast too actually if you don't go for anything too gaz heavy.
For all these builds, scouting is critical and you need to adapt to what your opponent is doing, the goal being to hurt is economy each time you can in the early game.
Last, the third CC timing is important too and you should take it very fast, esp. if you went for gaz first (to catch up in economy if your opponent went for a faster 2nd CC)
2) don't CC first on any map, it can be punished too easily. It's imply not worth the risk. (if gold league hasn't changed I suppose there are still a lot of proxy chesse going, am i right?)
3) when you're actually on 3 saturated bases, you do add a 2nd facto after your 5th baracks. Don't be mislead by pro games where the game is decided mid game with extremely agressive play. Real late game is rare in pro TvT unless it's mech vs mech. If it goes late game you will need a 2nd factory, and prolly a 3rd, and also more startports once your 4th is taken (when it goes to ultra late game, the game is decided in the air).
You also need 2 techlab on your 2nd and 3rd rax cause you want to research stim and shield at the same time. So even in bio vs bio you have 2 techlabs.
On June 23 2015 04:01 dchaudh wrote: Gold Terran here who is looking to try something different from his usual one-base 1-1-1 openers in TvT.
(At the time of my previous post in this threadm, I was in silver - the marine hellion elevator which was recommended to me was one of the builds which helped me get to gold!)
Three questions:
1) What is the safest fast expand build (i.e., CC-first, 15 Gas FE or Reaper FE) in terms of having the most units out to defend 1-base pushes (namely, marine hellion elevator & banshee)? I'd like to try my hand at more macro-oriented builds but am concerned about being able to hold off aggressive 1-base openers. (It would be particularly helpful if folks can recommend pro games from which I could plagiarize fast expand builds that are good in the current meta)
2) In the current meta, is it a bad idea to go CC-first on 2p maps?
3) What is our target infrastructure on 3-base? This question isn't specific to fast expand openers - just a general question; at the moment, my TvTs rarely get to this point =P
Based on some spawning tool research re: question # 2, it seems that we should aim for: - 1 tech-labbed factory - 1 reactored starport - 5-7 barracks: 1 techlabbed / 4 reactored if opponent is going marien tank OR 5 tech-labbed / 2 reactored if opponnet is going mech
Does this look correct? This is based off only a handful of games (mostly those of Polt/Taeja) so sample size is not great. In particular, I was surprised that pros rarely got more than 1 factory when going bio tank. Again, I may have looked at games that were outliers.
1) the safest is probably reaper expand cause it doesn't die immediatly to anything and the scout allows you to adapt in time. 12 rax 15 gaz is safe too but it's much harder to defend proxy reapers with this build. Gaz first allows you to expand decently fast too actually if you don't go for anything too gaz heavy.
For all these builds, scouting is critical and you need to adapt to what your opponent is doing, the goal being to hurt is economy each time you can in the early game.
Last, the third CC timing is important too and you should take it very fast, esp. if you went for gaz first (to catch up in economy if your opponent went for a faster 2nd CC)
2) don't CC first on any map, it can be punished too easily. It's imply not worth the risk. (if gold league hasn't changed I suppose there are still a lot of proxy chesse going, am i right?)
3) when you're actually on 3 saturated bases, you do add a 2nd facto after your 5th baracks. Don't be mislead by pro games where the game is decided mid game with extremely agressive play. Real late game is rare in pro TvT unless it's mech vs mech. If it goes late game you will need a 2nd factory, and prolly a 3rd, and also more startports once your 4th is taken (when it goes to ultra late game, the game is decided in the air).
You also need 2 techlab on your 2nd and 3rd rax cause you want to research stim and shield at the same time. So even in bio vs bio you have 2 techlabs.
This is mostly correct except researching stim and shields at the same time is very situational. When I play banshee, I put my barracks on the tech lab of the starport after a banshee, raven, and 2 vikings and just research stim then, which puts me even with any player who doesn't open with a 3 rax stim build. You can usually organize some swap like this and only stick with one tech lab, but if you only start researching once you finish barracks 2 and 3 then you probably want 2 tech labs.
What's also not quite right is the comment about the 3rd CC. If you go a gas first build that expands before around 6:30 ish (like raven or banshee or some hellion drop builds) then you don't need to take a fast 3rd cc at all against a fast expand player. If your expansion is later than 7 minutes against a fast expand then you can go up to 3OC but it's a major gamble and you are effectively giving away any chance at strong attacks for the next 5-7 minutes.
Something that you definintely shouldn't do is plant the CC overly fast--if you don't have map control then you are very vulnerable to doom drops or losing a base.
2nd factory goes down after you take gases on your third and start +2, so you don't have any major gas expenditures left to plan for. You can go up to a total of 7-8 barracks once you have 3 full bases mining (if you take a late third at around 15 minutes then you'll probably never have enough money until your fourth starts mining.)
Lategame bio vs bio it's not really worth it to get extra starports unless you end up in a split map situation. You do need them vs mech, however, unless you are playing against pure hellbat/tank.
I'm also working on nailing down some 13 gas expand builds (which Maru really likes). I feel like the amount you are behind economy-wise is quite small while being able to hold off one base builds much more effectively. Yet you have lots of early mid-game opportunities to do some damage and even out the economy.
I'm sort of lost in TvT though at the moment but that could potentially be attributed to the fact that I'm just getting back into playing consistently again after a month or two of inactivity. The match up has always been pretty crazy and actually one of my favorites despite how difficult it is. I think I had my most success going for the gas first Raven two medivac two tank drop that was popular at like the beginning/middle of 2014 but I sort of switched it out for the gas first marine hellion elevator which honestly I don't think is all that strong anymore. I can hit the 6:30 minute benchmark fine but usually the opponent has enough out to defend my drop and I'm left being really far behind. I'm working on the 13 gas builds as I've said but haven't really brought it out into ladder games yet as I've only recently been working on hitting the build order crisply.
My mechanics probably just need work. I'm Diamond but really want the Master title.
[B] 1) What is the safest fast expand build (i.e., CC-first, 15 Gas FE or Reaper FE) in terms of having the most units out to defend 1-base pushes (namely, marine hellion elevator & banshee)? I'd like to try my hand at more macro-oriented builds but am concerned about being able to hold off aggressive 1-base openers. (It would be particularly helpful if folks can recommend pro games from which I could plagiarize fast expand builds that are good in the current meta)
15 gas is alright but it can still insta-lose to gas-first marine hellion elevator if the other terran has good micro.
Flash uses this build below for his mech openers. It practically hard-counters marine-hellion-elevator and cloakshee but you don't have opportunity to play aggressive yourself. Since you want to go for more macro though I doubt that's a concern.
On June 23 2015 08:48 Grizvok wrote: You never CC first in TvT. Ever.
I'm also working on nailing down some 13 gas expand builds (which Maru really likes). I feel like the amount you are behind economy-wise is quite small while being able to hold off one base builds much more effectively. Yet you have lots of early mid-game opportunities to do some damage and even out the economy.
I'm sort of lost in TvT though at the moment but that could potentially be attributed to the fact that I'm just getting back into playing consistently again after a month or two of inactivity. The match up has always been pretty crazy and actually one of my favorites despite how difficult it is. I think I had my most success going for the gas first Raven two medivac two tank drop that was popular at like the beginning/middle of 2014 but I sort of switched it out for the gas first marine hellion elevator which honestly I don't think is all that strong anymore. I can hit the 6:30 minute benchmark fine but usually the opponent has enough out to defend my drop and I'm left being really far behind. I'm working on the 13 gas builds as I've said but haven't really brought it out into ladder games yet as I've only recently been working on hitting the build order crisply.
My mechanics probably just need work. I'm Diamond but really want the Master title.
You can open cc first in TvT but it's a BO loss to 11/11 reapers or 8/8/8 proxy reaper.
I've tried some cc first in TvT recently and I like to open with my cc on the high ground next to my production so I can defend against a proxy reaper opener. If you open on the low ground you just straight up lose w/o scouting info.
I think the build works much better on 4 player maps or against players who are unlikely to cheese; If you open cc first against a common reaper opener into mech or a gas first raven/viking opener it can give you a huge advantage in the midgame. A good example is Cure vs INnoVation from GSL ro8 last year on KSS. Largely Cure was just meta-gaming Inno, but because of the incredibly early orbital there was nothing Innovation really could have done.
I think even a cc first opening against a gas first banshee can be very solid if you place turrets well. '
here's a link to the game (this whole series was really fantastic)
Overall though, I think its just better to opener reaper: CC first just isn't worth the risk in most situations, even at a professional level where players know each other's play styles well.
So I know it might be funny but how do you stop proxy tempest ? I am top 3 master on eu and I lose to it everytime. I stop the first oracle and then what ? It can be really though to know if he's producing more voidrays, going for blink or teching to tempest. Also if I go factory into mines, the oracle just detects them and its 0% cost efficient. And if I go 3 rax, I find myself unable to reach the tempest and the protoss is just free to shoot at me with revelation. I feel bad because it's like everyone is saying it's a bad strategy but i don't know how to stop it.
I've had a GM do this to me but he kept me pinned with it though I was able to get out vikings and Stimmed marines by the time I had Stimmed marines he already had 2 colo. Game didn't end well LOL He was to cost efficient in trades in the beginning to where I couldn't break out at any point. So the game spiraled out of control. My only thought was to get Ravens afterward like 1-2 and try to get some type of critical mass of vikings / marines and marauder but nothing working per say hahaha
Edit: If anyone does have really good advice on this I would definitely like to know as well
I don't believe this build is beatable if you don't deny the initial oracle/proxy with 6 marines: Once your opponent has the tempest out there is really nothing you can do because you can't base trade and lift buildings and you can't win a head on fight against tempest with just mines/marines.
The way to beat this build is to just scout early and play very defensive against super fast oracle proxies. If you deny the initial oracle it's easy to build an ebay and just kill the proxied stargate before your opponent has the time to follow up with more oracles or transition into a fleet beacon/tempest.
The reason this build is so strong is that it forces the Terran into an immediate and correct response based on limited scouting information. Dream had no idea that an oracle would ever be followed up by tempest (which is honestly a fairly reasonable assumption in high level Korean play).
Simple answer: 6 marines ASAP, don't let the tempest ever come out and allow yourself get to that point.
I do think this build is also very strong because it really hits at one of the vulnerabilities that Terran players have in the MU: the lack of complete scouting information and how it forces your hand to defend. Because You can not immediately know what the Protoss is doing, you have to guess correctly in many situations like this. This is one of the most practical examples of why people complain about the design of protoss (and I'm inclided to agree slightly.)
Even Flash said the issue with the TvP MU is not the Colossus or the asymmetric nature of Protoss unit design, but the options/and scouting information that Terran players require in the early/mid game.
Classic is a very smart player to select the builds that he did on KSS and Cactus Valley.
That build accounted for some free ladder wins for some protoss using this build. I'm so mad at Rotterdam for coming up it. If you're reading this Kevin you've unleashed something terrible on all the terrans.
On June 23 2015 04:01 dchaudh wrote: Gold Terran here who is looking to try something different from his usual one-base 1-1-1 openers in TvT.
(At the time of my previous post in this threadm, I was in silver - the marine hellion elevator which was recommended to me was one of the builds which helped me get to gold!)
Three questions:
1) What is the safest fast expand build (i.e., CC-first, 15 Gas FE or Reaper FE) in terms of having the most units out to defend 1-base pushes (namely, marine hellion elevator & banshee)? I'd like to try my hand at more macro-oriented builds but am concerned about being able to hold off aggressive 1-base openers. (It would be particularly helpful if folks can recommend pro games from which I could plagiarize fast expand builds that are good in the current meta)
2) In the current meta, is it a bad idea to go CC-first on 2p maps?
3) What is our target infrastructure on 3-base? This question isn't specific to fast expand openers - just a general question; at the moment, my TvTs rarely get to this point =P
Based on some spawning tool research re: question # 2, it seems that we should aim for: - 1 tech-labbed factory - 1 reactored starport - 5-7 barracks: 1 techlabbed / 4 reactored if opponent is going marien tank OR 5 tech-labbed / 2 reactored if opponnet is going mech
Does this look correct? This is based off only a handful of games (mostly those of Polt/Taeja) so sample size is not great. In particular, I was surprised that pros rarely got more than 1 factory when going bio tank. Again, I may have looked at games that were outliers.
1) the safest is probably reaper expand cause it doesn't die immediatly to anything and the scout allows you to adapt in time. 12 rax 15 gaz is safe too but it's much harder to defend proxy reapers with this build. Gaz first allows you to expand decently fast too actually if you don't go for anything too gaz heavy.
For all these builds, scouting is critical and you need to adapt to what your opponent is doing, the goal being to hurt is economy each time you can in the early game.
Last, the third CC timing is important too and you should take it very fast, esp. if you went for gaz first (to catch up in economy if your opponent went for a faster 2nd CC)
2) don't CC first on any map, it can be punished too easily. It's imply not worth the risk. (if gold league hasn't changed I suppose there are still a lot of proxy chesse going, am i right?)
3) when you're actually on 3 saturated bases, you do add a 2nd facto after your 5th baracks. Don't be mislead by pro games where the game is decided mid game with extremely agressive play. Real late game is rare in pro TvT unless it's mech vs mech. If it goes late game you will need a 2nd factory, and prolly a 3rd, and also more startports once your 4th is taken (when it goes to ultra late game, the game is decided in the air).
You also need 2 techlab on your 2nd and 3rd rax cause you want to research stim and shield at the same time. So even in bio vs bio you have 2 techlabs.
This is mostly correct except researching stim and shields at the same time is very situational. When I play banshee, I put my barracks on the tech lab of the starport after a banshee, raven, and 2 vikings and just research stim then, which puts me even with any player who doesn't open with a 3 rax stim build. You can usually organize some swap like this and only stick with one tech lab, but if you only start researching once you finish barracks 2 and 3 then you probably want 2 tech labs.
What's also not quite right is the comment about the 3rd CC. If you go a gas first build that expands before around 6:30 ish (like raven or banshee or some hellion drop builds) then you don't need to take a fast 3rd cc at all against a fast expand player. If your expansion is later than 7 minutes against a fast expand then you can go up to 3OC but it's a major gamble and you are effectively giving away any chance at strong attacks for the next 5-7 minutes.
Something that you definintely shouldn't do is plant the CC overly fast--if you don't have map control then you are very vulnerable to doom drops or losing a base.
2nd factory goes down after you take gases on your third and start +2, so you don't have any major gas expenditures left to plan for. You can go up to a total of 7-8 barracks once you have 3 full bases mining (if you take a late third at around 15 minutes then you'll probably never have enough money until your fourth starts mining.)
Lategame bio vs bio it's not really worth it to get extra starports unless you end up in a split map situation. You do need them vs mech, however, unless you are playing against pure hellbat/tank.
Yeah nothing is more situationnal than TvT, that's why it's hard to make a definitive guide about, if not impossible.
For stim/shield, if you go raven, banshee, 2 vikings stim and then shield isn't your shield kind of late? It's not an upgrade I personnaly like to delay too much and it seems banshee-> raven -> viking x 2 -> stim -> shield gives you shield at something like 13'45, or am I wrong?
For the 3CC I should have been more precise, I didn't mean an ultra fast 3rd, but starting it around 8:30-9:30 is really not a gamble and is kinda standard. Of course I should have made more clear that it was an in base 3rd CC that you only put on the third when you have enough army to be safe.
Anyway, TvT has a huge versatility, I just think that in gold league, 1-1-1 into 2nd and 3rd rax with tech labs into 3rd CC is generally a good call...
I've been going gasless 1 rack expo into 3 racks -> double gas -> double medivacs with stim (and +1 if you get an Ebay to defend banshees). I'm in diamond league btw.
My observations: - The build is super tricky, if not borderline suicidal, to pull off on small 2 player maps. - Proxy reapers are hard to hold. - On the bigger, 4 player maps, it can work, and pretty well even. You have to be on top of your scouting to know what's coming (if you have to rush out a wall, get turrets, place your marines to deny elevators/drops). But you do have a high marine count quickly to repel most attacks, and when you get to the ~10min stim/+1/medivac push, it can be enough to win right then and there. - Be wary of early tank attacks. If your scan indicated it's a possibility, I suggest putting an SCV on patrol outside of their base to see it coming from afar, and then to go catch the push mid map with your marines (+ some SCVs if you feel like you need them). Never let them siege up near your base. - Playing vs banshee + helions openings can be tricky too. Don't let banshees nibble down on your marine count, shield them from the banshee by putting them near a turret, and only go for the banshee when you are confident you'll get it. Marines are able to deal with helions in small numbers, but don't wait too long to wall off (depots + bunker). - It flows nicely into marine/tank play, just add a 3rd, some raxes and you're all set !
Anyway, I think it's a nice build to have in your repertoire and be able to whip it out every once in a while (especially if you play bo3+ series with clan mates for example) !
Edit: also, it's loads of fun playing out the old WoL gasless expand again. I feel like Bomber ! :-D
I play 15 gas expand in 100% of my tvts at master level. If you scout and react correctly you can defend everything with this build. Just scv scout in the beginning to rule out proxy builds and scan his base once your natural CC finishes. If he opened gas first and you don't see cloak research with your scan get out a tank asap because he will probably do a hellion marine elevator. Vs banshees get a raven out and save up a scan. Don't forget the bunker at your natural. From there on you can build your 3rd and transition either into bio or mech.
On June 24 2015 21:13 LoneYoShi wrote: I've been going gasless 1 rack expo into 3 racks -> double gas -> double medivacs with stim (and +1 if you get an Ebay to defend banshees). I'm in diamond league btw.
My observations: - The build is super tricky, if not borderline suicidal, to pull off on small 2 player maps. - Proxy reapers are hard to hold. - On the bigger, 4 player maps, it can work, and pretty well even. You have to be on top of your scouting to know what's coming (if you have to rush out a wall, get turrets, place your marines to deny elevators/drops). But you do have a high marine count quickly to repel most attacks, and when you get to the ~10min stim/+1/medivac push, it can be enough to win right then and there. - Be wary of early tank attacks. If your scan indicated it's a possibility, I suggest putting an SCV on patrol outside of their base to see it coming from afar, and then to go catch the push mid map with your marines (+ some SCVs if you feel like you need them). Never let them siege up near your base. - Playing vs banshee + helions openings can be tricky too. Don't let banshees nibble down on your marine count, shield them from the banshee by putting them near a turret, and only go for the banshee when you are confident you'll get it. Marines are able to deal with helions in small numbers, but don't wait too long to wall off (depots + bunker). - It flows nicely into marine/tank play, just add a 3rd, some raxes and you're all set !
Anyway, I think it's a nice build to have in your repertoire and be able to whip it out every once in a while (especially if you play bo3+ series with clan mates for example) !
Edit: also, it's loads of fun playing out the old WoL gasless expand again. I feel like Bomber ! :-D
There are just so many better builds than that to be honest.
On June 24 2015 21:13 LoneYoShi wrote: I've been going gasless 1 rack expo into 3 racks -> double gas -> double medivacs with stim (and +1 if you get an Ebay to defend banshees). I'm in diamond league btw.
My observations: - The build is super tricky, if not borderline suicidal, to pull off on small 2 player maps. - Proxy reapers are hard to hold. - On the bigger, 4 player maps, it can work, and pretty well even. You have to be on top of your scouting to know what's coming (if you have to rush out a wall, get turrets, place your marines to deny elevators/drops). But you do have a high marine count quickly to repel most attacks, and when you get to the ~10min stim/+1/medivac push, it can be enough to win right then and there. - Be wary of early tank attacks. If your scan indicated it's a possibility, I suggest putting an SCV on patrol outside of their base to see it coming from afar, and then to go catch the push mid map with your marines (+ some SCVs if you feel like you need them). Never let them siege up near your base. - Playing vs banshee + helions openings can be tricky too. Don't let banshees nibble down on your marine count, shield them from the banshee by putting them near a turret, and only go for the banshee when you are confident you'll get it. Marines are able to deal with helions in small numbers, but don't wait too long to wall off (depots + bunker). - It flows nicely into marine/tank play, just add a 3rd, some raxes and you're all set !
Anyway, I think it's a nice build to have in your repertoire and be able to whip it out every once in a while (especially if you play bo3+ series with clan mates for example) !
Edit: also, it's loads of fun playing out the old WoL gasless expand again. I feel like Bomber ! :-D
There are just so many better builds than that to be honest.
Yes. In my opinion, it's best to either open gas first banshee, or open reaper expand 1/1/1 defensive opening for most situations.
the 15 gas reaperless opener is decent but in most situations sub optimal to reaper openers (reapers can kite marines).
At least for me personally, I either open gas first banshee (most of the time), or I do a reaper expand into either generic mech play or a 2 base focused bio/tank push.
I can respond with a few refined builds if you'd like.
On June 24 2015 21:13 LoneYoShi wrote: I've been going gasless 1 rack expo into 3 racks -> double gas -> double medivacs with stim (and +1 if you get an Ebay to defend banshees). I'm in diamond league btw.
My observations: - The build is super tricky, if not borderline suicidal, to pull off on small 2 player maps. - Proxy reapers are hard to hold. - On the bigger, 4 player maps, it can work, and pretty well even. You have to be on top of your scouting to know what's coming (if you have to rush out a wall, get turrets, place your marines to deny elevators/drops). But you do have a high marine count quickly to repel most attacks, and when you get to the ~10min stim/+1/medivac push, it can be enough to win right then and there. - Be wary of early tank attacks. If your scan indicated it's a possibility, I suggest putting an SCV on patrol outside of their base to see it coming from afar, and then to go catch the push mid map with your marines (+ some SCVs if you feel like you need them). Never let them siege up near your base. - Playing vs banshee + helions openings can be tricky too. Don't let banshees nibble down on your marine count, shield them from the banshee by putting them near a turret, and only go for the banshee when you are confident you'll get it. Marines are able to deal with helions in small numbers, but don't wait too long to wall off (depots + bunker). - It flows nicely into marine/tank play, just add a 3rd, some raxes and you're all set !
Anyway, I think it's a nice build to have in your repertoire and be able to whip it out every once in a while (especially if you play bo3+ series with clan mates for example) !
Edit: also, it's loads of fun playing out the old WoL gasless expand again. I feel like Bomber ! :-D
There are just so many better builds than that to be honest.
Yes. In my opinion, it's best to either open gas first banshee, or open reaper expand 1/1/1 defensive opening for most situations.
the 15 gas reaperless opener is decent but in most situations sub optimal to reaper openers (reapers can kite marines).
At least for me personally, I either open gas first banshee (most of the time), or I do a reaper expand into either generic mech play or a 2 base focused bio/tank push.
I can respond with a few refined builds if you'd like.
I would really like a Reaper expand into 1-1-1 build order to work with. I think defensive economic play to start TvT really suits my style so I can get into the mid game on even footing or with a slight edge. I feel when I get to the mid game in TvT my play really picks up as I thoroughly enjoy marine-tank wars. I'm more of a bio player all around and stick with that in all match ups so the 2-base marine-tank push variation would be nice. I love mapping out dedicated plans now so I assume you posture up looking for doom drop potential and do a soft contain while getting up your own third?
On June 24 2015 21:13 LoneYoShi wrote: I've been going gasless 1 rack expo into 3 racks -> double gas -> double medivacs with stim (and +1 if you get an Ebay to defend banshees). I'm in diamond league btw.
My observations: - The build is super tricky, if not borderline suicidal, to pull off on small 2 player maps. - Proxy reapers are hard to hold. - On the bigger, 4 player maps, it can work, and pretty well even. You have to be on top of your scouting to know what's coming (if you have to rush out a wall, get turrets, place your marines to deny elevators/drops). But you do have a high marine count quickly to repel most attacks, and when you get to the ~10min stim/+1/medivac push, it can be enough to win right then and there. - Be wary of early tank attacks. If your scan indicated it's a possibility, I suggest putting an SCV on patrol outside of their base to see it coming from afar, and then to go catch the push mid map with your marines (+ some SCVs if you feel like you need them). Never let them siege up near your base. - Playing vs banshee + helions openings can be tricky too. Don't let banshees nibble down on your marine count, shield them from the banshee by putting them near a turret, and only go for the banshee when you are confident you'll get it. Marines are able to deal with helions in small numbers, but don't wait too long to wall off (depots + bunker). - It flows nicely into marine/tank play, just add a 3rd, some raxes and you're all set !
Anyway, I think it's a nice build to have in your repertoire and be able to whip it out every once in a while (especially if you play bo3+ series with clan mates for example) !
Edit: also, it's loads of fun playing out the old WoL gasless expand again. I feel like Bomber ! :-D
There are just so many better builds than that to be honest.
Yes. In my opinion, it's best to either open gas first banshee, or open reaper expand 1/1/1 defensive opening for most situations.
the 15 gas reaperless opener is decent but in most situations sub optimal to reaper openers (reapers can kite marines).
At least for me personally, I either open gas first banshee (most of the time), or I do a reaper expand into either generic mech play or a 2 base focused bio/tank push.
I can respond with a few refined builds if you'd like.
I would really like a Reaper expand into 1-1-1 build order to work with. I think defensive economic play to start TvT really suits my style so I can get into the mid game on even footing or with a slight edge. I feel when I get to the mid game in TvT my play really picks up as I thoroughly enjoy marine-tank wars. I'm more of a bio player all around and stick with that in all match ups so the 2-base marine-tank push variation would be nice. I love mapping out dedicated plans now so I assume you posture up looking for doom drop potential and do a soft contain while getting up your own third?
Thanks in advance.
You could always just do a raven opener, either like Bomber was doing in most of his TvTs for most of the latter half of 2014 (raven into 3OC with reasonably timed stim and extra barracks, but no opportunity for pressure) or you can do a generic raven expand into some kind of push with 2 tanks and a couple vikings at around 8:30 (it's also possible to do a similar build out of banshee) which I used to like because it avoids most of the infuriating aspects of TvT like dying to random builds or losing one specific unit and therefore losing the game and arrives very quickly at a tank/marine base. If you do this you do have the potential to lose to reaper pressure openers if you skip a hellion (or accept a later expansion if you do get a blind hellion) and you can lose to a well-microed gas first marine hellion medivac build.
On June 24 2015 21:13 LoneYoShi wrote: I've been going gasless 1 rack expo into 3 racks -> double gas -> double medivacs with stim (and +1 if you get an Ebay to defend banshees). I'm in diamond league btw.
My observations: - The build is super tricky, if not borderline suicidal, to pull off on small 2 player maps. - Proxy reapers are hard to hold. - On the bigger, 4 player maps, it can work, and pretty well even. You have to be on top of your scouting to know what's coming (if you have to rush out a wall, get turrets, place your marines to deny elevators/drops). But you do have a high marine count quickly to repel most attacks, and when you get to the ~10min stim/+1/medivac push, it can be enough to win right then and there. - Be wary of early tank attacks. If your scan indicated it's a possibility, I suggest putting an SCV on patrol outside of their base to see it coming from afar, and then to go catch the push mid map with your marines (+ some SCVs if you feel like you need them). Never let them siege up near your base. - Playing vs banshee + helions openings can be tricky too. Don't let banshees nibble down on your marine count, shield them from the banshee by putting them near a turret, and only go for the banshee when you are confident you'll get it. Marines are able to deal with helions in small numbers, but don't wait too long to wall off (depots + bunker). - It flows nicely into marine/tank play, just add a 3rd, some raxes and you're all set !
Anyway, I think it's a nice build to have in your repertoire and be able to whip it out every once in a while (especially if you play bo3+ series with clan mates for example) !
Edit: also, it's loads of fun playing out the old WoL gasless expand again. I feel like Bomber ! :-D
There are just so many better builds than that to be honest.
Yes. In my opinion, it's best to either open gas first banshee, or open reaper expand 1/1/1 defensive opening for most situations.
the 15 gas reaperless opener is decent but in most situations sub optimal to reaper openers (reapers can kite marines).
At least for me personally, I either open gas first banshee (most of the time), or I do a reaper expand into either generic mech play or a 2 base focused bio/tank push.
I can respond with a few refined builds if you'd like.
I would really like a Reaper expand into 1-1-1 build order to work with. I think defensive economic play to start TvT really suits my style so I can get into the mid game on even footing or with a slight edge. I feel when I get to the mid game in TvT my play really picks up as I thoroughly enjoy marine-tank wars. I'm more of a bio player all around and stick with that in all match ups so the 2-base marine-tank push variation would be nice. I love mapping out dedicated plans now so I assume you posture up looking for doom drop potential and do a soft contain while getting up your own third?
Thanks in advance.
You could always just do a raven opener, either like Bomber was doing in most of his TvTs for most of the latter half of 2014 (raven into 3OC with reasonably timed stim and extra barracks, but no opportunity for pressure) or you can do a generic raven expand into some kind of push with 2 tanks and a couple vikings at around 8:30 (it's also possible to do a similar build out of banshee) which I used to like because it avoids most of the infuriating aspects of TvT like dying to random builds or losing one specific unit and therefore losing the game and arrives very quickly at a tank/marine base. If you do this you do have the potential to lose to reaper pressure openers if you skip a hellion (or accept a later expansion if you do get a blind hellion) and you can lose to a well-microed gas first marine hellion medivac build.
Yeah I did the meta gas first Raven into two tank two medivac drop with turrets for a while. I actually really liked the build. I'm just looking for something different I guess....more economic and reactive.
On June 24 2015 21:13 LoneYoShi wrote: I've been going gasless 1 rack expo into 3 racks -> double gas -> double medivacs with stim (and +1 if you get an Ebay to defend banshees). I'm in diamond league btw.
My observations: - The build is super tricky, if not borderline suicidal, to pull off on small 2 player maps. - Proxy reapers are hard to hold. - On the bigger, 4 player maps, it can work, and pretty well even. You have to be on top of your scouting to know what's coming (if you have to rush out a wall, get turrets, place your marines to deny elevators/drops). But you do have a high marine count quickly to repel most attacks, and when you get to the ~10min stim/+1/medivac push, it can be enough to win right then and there. - Be wary of early tank attacks. If your scan indicated it's a possibility, I suggest putting an SCV on patrol outside of their base to see it coming from afar, and then to go catch the push mid map with your marines (+ some SCVs if you feel like you need them). Never let them siege up near your base. - Playing vs banshee + helions openings can be tricky too. Don't let banshees nibble down on your marine count, shield them from the banshee by putting them near a turret, and only go for the banshee when you are confident you'll get it. Marines are able to deal with helions in small numbers, but don't wait too long to wall off (depots + bunker). - It flows nicely into marine/tank play, just add a 3rd, some raxes and you're all set !
Anyway, I think it's a nice build to have in your repertoire and be able to whip it out every once in a while (especially if you play bo3+ series with clan mates for example) !
Edit: also, it's loads of fun playing out the old WoL gasless expand again. I feel like Bomber ! :-D
There are just so many better builds than that to be honest.
Yes. In my opinion, it's best to either open gas first banshee, or open reaper expand 1/1/1 defensive opening for most situations.
the 15 gas reaperless opener is decent but in most situations sub optimal to reaper openers (reapers can kite marines).
At least for me personally, I either open gas first banshee (most of the time), or I do a reaper expand into either generic mech play or a 2 base focused bio/tank push.
I can respond with a few refined builds if you'd like.
I would really like a Reaper expand into 1-1-1 build order to work with. I think defensive economic play to start TvT really suits my style so I can get into the mid game on even footing or with a slight edge. I feel when I get to the mid game in TvT my play really picks up as I thoroughly enjoy marine-tank wars. I'm more of a bio player all around and stick with that in all match ups so the 2-base marine-tank push variation would be nice. I love mapping out dedicated plans now so I assume you posture up looking for doom drop potential and do a soft contain while getting up your own third?
Thanks in advance.
You could always just do a raven opener, either like Bomber was doing in most of his TvTs for most of the latter half of 2014 (raven into 3OC with reasonably timed stim and extra barracks, but no opportunity for pressure) or you can do a generic raven expand into some kind of push with 2 tanks and a couple vikings at around 8:30 (it's also possible to do a similar build out of banshee) which I used to like because it avoids most of the infuriating aspects of TvT like dying to random builds or losing one specific unit and therefore losing the game and arrives very quickly at a tank/marine base. If you do this you do have the potential to lose to reaper pressure openers if you skip a hellion (or accept a later expansion if you do get a blind hellion) and you can lose to a well-microed gas first marine hellion medivac build.
Yeah I did the meta gas first Raven into two tank two medivac drop with turrets for a while. I actually really liked the build. I'm just looking for something different I guess....more economic and reactive.
Here's a common macro build that a lot of players use in Korea atm (Flash/Cure/Reality recently have been using it)
Here's the text pulled straight from my build order log.
4. Defensive Reaper Expand into 1/1/1 (Flash vs Taeja IEM Toronto 2014, Dream vs Maru)
-10 depot -12 Barracks -12 Gas -17 CC -Reaper, Reactor on Barracks -19 Factory -2 Marines from Barracks -Starport -2nd gas after starport starts -Drop ebay with 2nd gas, turrets in mineral lines -Swap reactor on Factory after 2 marines complete, hellion production -Viking -Tech lab on Barracks -Swap tech lab on starport -Raven from starport
-Keep reaper alive for scouting. Be careful of mass reaper strategies; If scouted drop a bunker near mineral line and keep marines alive.
Notes: I like this build on 4 player maps with easy expansions, 2 player maps with shorter rush distances make a less economical build more desirable. Even going straight for banshee is incredible effective because of what it forces from your opponent, and the safety you get by going for the banshee. It does however, require a great deal of attention to micro.
Note: In the game, flash’s turrets finish EXACTLY as taeja’s banshee arrives. Hitting this timing is crucial to this build being effective
The weakness of this build is that you delay your tank/ground army. YOU MUST BE VERY CAREFUL OF 2 BASE BIO/TANK PUSHES. (FLASH VS MMA, proleague 2015)
vods: This is the original use of this build that incorporates the reaper vods2: - a more modern variation vods3: - the most up to date variation that Cure used against reality in proleague recently.
On June 27 2015 06:20 Obamarauder wrote: anyone know why dream takes 2nd gas at 6 minute when going hellion banshee?? every other terran gets 2nd gas at 5:00ish with hellion banshee
I'm assuming we are talking about TvZ here? Dream seems to never get cloak from what I've seen. He also does CC first pretty often which will forego the Reaper and needs less gas so a later geyser makes sense there as well.
On June 27 2015 06:20 Obamarauder wrote: anyone know why dream takes 2nd gas at 6 minute when going hellion banshee?? every other terran gets 2nd gas at 5:00ish with hellion banshee
I'm assuming we are talking about TvZ here? Dream seems to never get cloak from what I've seen. He also does CC first pretty often which will forego the Reaper and needs less gas so a later geyser makes sense there as well.
no he still gets cloak, in almost every macro game vs Life in SSL he goes 6 minute gas and gets cloak here's an example
it seems like by taking 2nd gas 1 minute later so he'll get his 3rd cc earlier. To make up for the lack of early gas he takes his natural gases sooner so he doesnt delay stim/upgrades. not 100% if this is the reason tho thats why i asked
EPT
