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On June 27 2015 06:20 Obamarauder wrote: anyone know why dream takes 2nd gas at 6 minute when going hellion banshee?? every other terran gets 2nd gas at 5:00ish with hellion banshee
I'm assuming we are talking about TvZ here? Dream seems to never get cloak from what I've seen. He also does CC first pretty often which will forego the Reaper and needs less gas so a later geyser makes sense there as well.
no he still gets cloak, in almost every macro game vs Life in SSL he goes 6 minute gas and gets cloak here's an example
it seems like by taking 2nd gas 1 minute later so he'll get his 3rd cc earlier. To make up for the lack of early gas he takes his natural gases sooner so he doesnt delay stim/upgrades. not 100% if this is the reason tho thats why i asked
I see. Yeah I've studied his CC first into cloakless banshee off of one gas into 3CC much more closely than this. I would think you are absolutely correct in stating that he just wants to optimize the economic focus of the build.
On June 27 2015 06:20 Obamarauder wrote: anyone know why dream takes 2nd gas at 6 minute when going hellion banshee?? every other terran gets 2nd gas at 5:00ish with hellion banshee
I'm assuming we are talking about TvZ here? Dream seems to never get cloak from what I've seen. He also does CC first pretty often which will forego the Reaper and needs less gas so a later geyser makes sense there as well.
it seems like by taking 2nd gas 1 minute later so he'll get his 3rd cc earlier. To make up for the lack of early gas he takes his natural gases sooner so he doesnt delay stim/upgrades. not 100% if this is the reason tho thats why i asked
I see. Yeah I've studied his CC first into cloakless banshee off of one gas into 3CC much more closely than this. I would think you are absolutely correct in stating that he just wants to optimize the economic focus of the build.
I suppose its more of a personal preference than anything else. Regardless opening with cloak forces spore crawlers as is is. The thing that dream does is usually add the third cc before the starport which makes it a lot more economic.
I think he's just trying to hit that midgame bio-timing at little bit faster before life has 80 drones on 4 base gas economy
On June 27 2015 06:20 Obamarauder wrote: anyone know why dream takes 2nd gas at 6 minute when going hellion banshee?? every other terran gets 2nd gas at 5:00ish with hellion banshee
I'm assuming we are talking about TvZ here? Dream seems to never get cloak from what I've seen. He also does CC first pretty often which will forego the Reaper and needs less gas so a later geyser makes sense there as well.
it seems like by taking 2nd gas 1 minute later so he'll get his 3rd cc earlier. To make up for the lack of early gas he takes his natural gases sooner so he doesnt delay stim/upgrades. not 100% if this is the reason tho thats why i asked
Actually after just watching this game he most definitely cancels cloak.
On June 27 2015 06:20 Obamarauder wrote: anyone know why dream takes 2nd gas at 6 minute when going hellion banshee?? every other terran gets 2nd gas at 5:00ish with hellion banshee
I'm assuming we are talking about TvZ here? Dream seems to never get cloak from what I've seen. He also does CC first pretty often which will forego the Reaper and needs less gas so a later geyser makes sense there as well.
it seems like by taking 2nd gas 1 minute later so he'll get his 3rd cc earlier. To make up for the lack of early gas he takes his natural gases sooner so he doesnt delay stim/upgrades. not 100% if this is the reason tho thats why i asked
Actually after just watching this game he most definitely cancels cloak.
These are likely just adjustments made on the fly and not necessarily staples of his TvZ in general. Regardless, I think committing to banshee's is almost always best with the cloak upgrade.
On June 27 2015 06:20 Obamarauder wrote: anyone know why dream takes 2nd gas at 6 minute when going hellion banshee?? every other terran gets 2nd gas at 5:00ish with hellion banshee
I'm assuming we are talking about TvZ here? Dream seems to never get cloak from what I've seen. He also does CC first pretty often which will forego the Reaper and needs less gas so a later geyser makes sense there as well.
it seems like by taking 2nd gas 1 minute later so he'll get his 3rd cc earlier. To make up for the lack of early gas he takes his natural gases sooner so he doesnt delay stim/upgrades. not 100% if this is the reason tho thats why i asked
Actually after just watching this game he most definitely cancels cloak.
These are likely just adjustments made on the fly and not necessarily staples of his TvZ in general. Regardless, I think committing to banshee's is almost always best with the cloak upgrade.
Dream does get banshees without cloak pretty often as I stated before. His CC first into banshee into 3CC off of one gas is certainly a go to build of his see Dream vs Life Game 7 of SSL semis.
That really wasn't the point to the other poster though. It is more of unadvisable to pull timings from a game where something wonky happens like canceling cloak last minute. He does get cloak enough where you can find a game to get timings from when he doesn't cancel cloak.
I barely play Bio in TvZ because i don't know how to. However i've been reading the "TvZ: A modern guide" and I understand that you have to push around 11.30 ish to clean creep and harass zerg's fourth, right?. That way, Mutas won't be harassing @ your base and things like that because you force Z to stay @ home. However, i've watched some vods and i've noticed that some pros start their attack around 14ish mins. Why is that?
When going Mech, how do I deal with Z that try to take all the map and expand everywhere?.
Also, how should I play mech? Turtling until my 2-2 is ready? or try to be aggressive with hellions runbies?
About TvP:
What's better, going for 5 rax before third, or going for a fast third ?
So I know it might be funny but how do you stop proxy tempest ? I am top 3 master on eu and I lose to it everytime. I stop the first oracle and then what ? It can be really though to know if he's producing more voidrays, going for blink or teching to tempest. Also if I go factory into mines, the oracle just detects them and its 0% cost efficient. And if I go 3 rax, I find myself unable to reach the tempest and the protoss is just free to shoot at me with revelation. I feel bad because it's like everyone is saying it's a bad strategy but i don't know how to stop it.
I played against this once a long time ago (like when pigbaby was in wcs am) and I basically just attacked his base with my bio because his tempests were positioned in an area of dead space. I just abused the immobility of the tempests by running around all over the place (meanwhile my natural was getting wrecked). After a while both of our economies were horrible but I just grouped the marines I had with my initial force and killed his tempests.
So I know it might be funny but how do you stop proxy tempest ? I am top 3 master on eu and I lose to it everytime. I stop the first oracle and then what ? It can be really though to know if he's producing more voidrays, going for blink or teching to tempest. Also if I go factory into mines, the oracle just detects them and its 0% cost efficient. And if I go 3 rax, I find myself unable to reach the tempest and the protoss is just free to shoot at me with revelation. I feel bad because it's like everyone is saying it's a bad strategy but i don't know how to stop it.
I played against this once a long time ago (like when pigbaby was in wcs am) and I basically just attacked his base with my bio because his tempests were positioned in an area of dead space. I just abused the immobility of the tempests by running around all over the place (meanwhile my natural was getting wrecked). After a while both of our economies were horrible but I just grouped the marines I had with my initial force and killed his tempests.
This is a decent idea, but it doesn't really get at the question in the best way. Honestly on KSS the best way to defeat a proxy tempest is to react immediately to a proxy immediately. I made a longer comment about this on the previous page which is worth checking out, but likely if you don't deny the oracle/tempest immediately you almost certainly will lose the game outside of a big mistake from the Protoss player.
What are the responses FlaSh goes for when he opens with his gas first hellion-reaper opening?
I know he normally goes for double banshee when he sees standard but if he sees gas first, he makes viking-raven and position his widow mine in banshee path
When does he determine if he gets blue flame or tank?
Thanks for the Reaper build order for Terran v Terran Alucen-Will. I freaking love it. I feel really confident in playing TvT this way. Much better for me than the ultra-aggressive openers where I get nothing done and end up really far behind. Been having a lot of success switching up the build a little bit too. Aka getting a widow mine when I scout a banshee and keeping up reactored marines instead of going for hellions.
On June 29 2015 22:17 Grizvok wrote: Thanks for the Reaper build order for Terran v Terran Alucen-Will. I freaking love it. I feel really confident in playing TvT this way. Much better for me than the ultra-aggressive openers where I get nothing done and end up really far behind. Been having a lot of success switching up the build a little bit too. Aka getting a widow mine when I scout a banshee and keeping up reactored marines instead of going for hellions.
Yeah, modern TvT in Korea has really moved slightly more heavily into the reaper/hellion openers with slightly delayed banshee's/medivac drops based on scouting/early game damage. It's a bit more refined way to play the game because it gives you safety from 2 rax reaper/proxy 8/8/8/or proxy marauders and early hellion timings that have become common with a lot of Terran's cutting marines for earlier tech/gas timings.
I like Cure's variation that I linked at the bottom: He actually gets an 11 gas in the game and 13 barracks which delays the reaper slightly and gets the tech as the same time as the normal 12 gas timing (w/no reaper). Furthermore it still gets the reaper out by the time your opponents get to your base if he opens 12 barracks/reaper which is the standard timing in all mu's in HOTS.
Reapers have become very common to open with because they don't delay gas timings that heavily, they provide safety from all-in's and they make the follow-up tech timing attack (the normal timing for medivac/banshee attacks is around 6-7 minutes) safer.
Overall I think the strongest opening is the 1/1/1 reaper with a banshee follow-up. Banshee's are still incredibly cost-efficient in almost every single game I see at the highest level.
Of course that Build that Flash uses w/ the typical reaper expand is the most economic opening. One thing I've noticed from him and reality is that given their information with the initial scout, they will often instead make a banshee if their opponent opens economically or delays their tech. This is a personal choice however, getting a banshee does delay your air dominance in the midgame, which is particularly important if you are trying to transition into the 3 mech base opening (which cuts siege tanks in favor of air dominance). Check Flash v MMA/Flash v INnoVation for these openings
On June 28 2015 05:03 Barracuda8 wrote: A few questions about TvZ and TvP
I barely play Bio in TvZ because i don't know how to. However i've been reading the "TvZ: A modern guide" and I understand that you have to push around 11.30 ish to clean creep and harass zerg's fourth, right?. That way, Mutas won't be harassing @ your base and things like that because you force Z to stay @ home. However, i've watched some vods and i've noticed that some pros start their attack around 14ish mins. Why is that?
When going Mech, how do I deal with Z that try to take all the map and expand everywhere?.
Also, how should I play mech? Turtling until my 2-2 is ready? or try to be aggressive with hellions runbies?
About TvP:
What's better, going for 5 rax before third, or going for a fast third ?
This question has a few layers to it and I can answer over the next couple days in more length.
Quickly, Regarding TvP: This is just subjective depending on what you scouted from your opponent and whether or not the map is easy to abuse medivac harass off 2 bases. Getting 5 rax before your third base gives you an earlier timing. Cure became known for this style during his run in the gsl s3 last year, along with his game against Trap at RBBG D.C.
- This game was quite significant in that it showed the incredible power of the 2 base 5 rax marauder/mine/medivac style that is has become more or less the standard way to play the modern macro game in Korean TvP. (Now Korean progamers even play the whole game vikingless, something Maru/Polt revolutionized).
To be clear: if your opponent is going to turtle on 2 bases-get your 3rd before your 4th + 5th rax, if you can do damage off 2 base v 2 base, get 5 rax before your 3rd.
Here's a couple common build orders top level Korean progamers used in these situations: (from my log)
3rd base off 3 rax into scv pull (the old standard build made famous by Flash/INnoVation, etc)
2. Standard Reaper Scout into 3 base timing push SCV pull (Flash vs Parting, Proleague Finals, Homestory Cup X. Merry Go Round) -10 Supply Depot (1) -12 Barracks (1) -12 Refinery -15 Orbital Command Upgrade (1) -15 Reaper -1 off gas -17 Command Center (2) -17 Reactor on Barracks (1) *All SCVs off Refinery -18 Supply Depot (2) -20 Marines *@300 Minerals - Barracks (2 & 3 ), 3 SCVs back on Refinery -26 Supply Depot (3) -27 Orbital Command Upgrade (2) -30 Tech Lab on Barracks (2) -31 -Supply Depot (4) -35 Marauder (1) -42 Stimpack, or Concussive Shells
Notes: Marauder (1) is used for stopping Stalker kiting as Terran's army moves across the map, keep the Marauder in front to tank, making any Stalker micro pointless.
If a Stargate is scouted, at any point, cut Marines to build an Engineering Bay immediately and move out with the first Marauder.
Retreat once Protoss uses Photon Overcharge after Marauder (1) poke, and attack again once it runs out or when Stimpack finishes, if researched before Concussive Shells.
Note: This was considered the ‘Standard’ TvP build in the previous meta. The goal of this build is to hit the protoss before he can get a large, upgraded colussus count. The timing to move out is around 15:00 with +1/+1. Only pull scv’after denying protoss third base without significant bio loss. (note this is considered an “all in,” as there are no transitions.) This build should be used primarily on maps with shorter rush distance that make CC first options too risky.
vods:
Here's is Cure's Variation of the 5 rax style off 2 base
8. Cure’s aggressive 2 base Marauder+Mine+Medivac (Redbull Battlegrounds D.C. Cure vs Trap) -10 Supply Depot -11 Barracks -11 Refinery -15 Orbital Command -15 Reaper, and pull 2 SCVs out of the Refinery ***You should now have 1 SCV mining gas @100% Reaper, start Reactor on Barracks @400 Mins, start 2nd Command Center -18 Supply Depot ————Above is Reaper FE -19 2nd Barracks -22 3rd Barracks, and put 2 SCVs back into the Refinery ***You should now have 3 SCVs mining gas ***You can start an optional Bunker here if you feel unsafe @100% 2nd Barracks, start Tech lab and 2nd Refinery @100% Tech lab, start Stimpack Research @100% 3rd Barracks, start Tech lab and begin constant double Marauder production @100 Gas, start Combat Shields ***Push out when your Stimpack/Combat Shields are 80% done (@8:00ish) with around 15 Marines and 7 Marauders with reinforcements rallied aggressively.
***You should have around 30 SCVs at home, and can now start a Factory at home for a standard Medivac follow-up.
***Attack your opponent’s natural when your Stimpack and Combat Shields finish (@8:50ish) with these 15 Marines and 7 Marauders.
(first game is basic bio aggression. Second game focuses on drops vs robo openings)
Cure vs Trap Redbull Battlegrounds D.C.(Casted link)
Cure vs San Proleague 2015:
(Note: Cure goes up to 5 rax and gets out medivacs+widow mines before he moves out. His first slight pressure is just for map control and mild containment.This is distinctly different than hearts stim timing, which is focused on moving out much earlier immediately after stim completion and before medivacs come out. Also cure focuses heavily on constant marine production before adding tech labs+marauders. This is done to prevent early blink stalkers/early oracles from doing damage. Also note how cure uses widow mines to split up the protoss army and weaken the front of the protoss natural.)
One quick aside: why the 2 base medivac/marauder/marine is so good: the fundamental goal of a protoss player in PvT is to tech to colossus and fight with their maxed out army. the weakness that this strategy has is that gateway units are weak to Bio units until that point. Furthermore, with only 2 bases protoss players are often limited in gas which is required to tech to robo/templar tech. What Cure realized in fall of last year is that because widow mines were buffed against shields, and marauders/Medivacs > blink stalkers, you can trade cost effectively off 2 bases against a protoss players and force them to waste gas making stalkers which delays their tech timings. Furthermore what makes this so effective is that marauder/mine/medivac straight up beats blink stalkers in a head on engagement.
so you get into a situation where your army beats your opponents army, you can trade cost effectively, and you also don't delay your late game timing at all.
I'd like to type more now but I'm exhausted and I need to work in the morning.
Newish to SC2 (about a month now) and naturally gravitate towards Terran. I used to play a lot of BW, but this is obviously a different beast.
I'm stuck in gold now. I was platinum for a bit in the old map pool, but this new map pool really seems to be difficult for me (or I'm just still weak and have a more difficult league this time). Anyway, not too worried about league as I learn. Trying to get my APM up (135 or so now), not hunt so much for hot keys, fix up multitasking, etc... Any general tips for someone at this stage would help.
The issue is, I feel like mechanically I'm outplaying a lot of the players in the league I'm in, but still losing a lot of games. I seem faster, more aware, better at multitasking, etc.., but I guess I'm just a bit lost with terran, especially in the late mid game to late game. I'm playing bio vs zerg and toss right now and trying to make that work.
Vs Zerg: I find I have a good enough handle on early game. Most at this level prefer the roach/hydra game because I think it's less micro. I find that kind of match is pretty even for me most of the time with mmm, but then as we transition to late I get stomped a lot. They either throw in ultra or overwhelm once they get 4 base. Upgraded roach/hydra seem to trounce mmm, or if they don't on the first wave, their production wins out. Tried to add in some tanks and am now thinking of some raven.
Vs. Toss: As I said, I'm trying to figure out a drop heavy bio style to keep them on their toes. I guess I need more practice, because I find that it plays out much like vs Zerg. If I don't win early or mid, I get stomped late by 4+ colossus armies. Vikings I guess, but I spend a lot trying to be aggro with medivac + mm drops. If they fend those off, I get lost mid/late.
My general impression right now is that terran is to be played aggressively and you HAVE to do damage from beginning to end and keep them contained somewhat. Whereas, zerg and toss are trying to get to late game where terran runs out of options (haven't tried a mech game yet, one thing at a time). Watching pro games, I see a very similar trend. The good terrans even seem to lose when zerg get to 4+ base and toss to 3+. So, I've really been concentrating on an aggressive game with multiple attack angles. If I sit back too passively, I almost always get stomped.
On July 03 2015 06:16 AbsoSC2 wrote: Vs Zerg: I find I have a good enough handle on early game. Most at this level prefer the roach/hydra game because I think it's less micro. I find that kind of match is pretty even for me most of the time with mmm, but then as we transition to late I get stomped a lot. They either throw in ultra or overwhelm once they get 4 base. Upgraded roach/hydra seem to trounce mmm, or if they don't on the first wave, their production wins out. Tried to add in some tanks and am now thinking of some raven.
advice from a zerg player who used to do a lot of roach/hydra-
it's not exactly true that "upgraded roach/hydra trounces MMM". roach/hydra is designed to hit very specific timings, usually first a 1/1 roach push to limit your economic development and then a massive 2/2 roach/hydra that ideally should be ending the game or destroying the third CC from zerg's perspective. the longer you produce and upgrade your MMM the better position you're in. you generally want a few tanks in key positions depending on the map, for example on cliffs that can hit 2-3 locations, and more marauders than usual to counter roaches (but obviously not just mass marauder if you've scouted hydra followup). after zerg's 2/2 timing passes and you start getting closer to maxing out and getting your own 3/3 you should be able to win straight up with bio medivac as long as you aren't taking ridiculous fights
you don't always have to defend your third base immediately against roach/hydra, if you can't take a good fight it's okay to evacuate and lift while repositioning your army and continuing to produce, and this is also a great time to drop him because usually zerg wants to have almost all of their army pushing you and will have to rely on spawning eggs at home to defend, which is bad for him. if you have good multitasking like you claim you should be able to constantly have double medivacs flying around and doing damage to him as long as his army is on the map and you really shouldn't lose them unless you get flanked by hydras somehow. when zerg is playing roach/hydra he actually has to commit a fairly significant chunk of army to pull back and defend 2-3 medivac drops because if he sends too few units he just bleeds out his entire defense at home and you immediately start doing damage. this combined with the lack of mutas is why drops are incredibly potent against roach/hydra
if you find you're unable to keep up as you get past the 15 minute mark and have fully upgraded bio, your macro might be the problem. you're right when you say that terran generally wants to be aggressive in the midgame and can't just sit back if you're playing bio. if you feel contained by zerg and all you're doing is sitting back and defending against an army that isn't a massive allin (for example no upgrades or no lair tech for zerg) then you're probably going to lose because he's just going to take more bases and more gas while you're sitting around with your thumb up your ass. without vipers or infestors zerg should be terrified to fight maxed 3/3 bio, and he shouldn't be able to attack you while also rushing up to hive and extra bases at home. deny or harass his fourth base and make him feel like he has to force a big fight and win so he charges into a bad position where you can trade well and start counter-dropping
if you do end up in a lategame scenario where he has his hive tech and you're both maxed out and expanding, play the mobility game. roach/hydra is nowhere near as fast as ling/muta. it's hard enough for zerg to defend fifth and sixth bases with standard ling/bane/muta, so if you spread out a roach/hydra player you should be able to really put the heat on him. zerg needs four bases minimum to play the lategame with any composition and as the game continues he will need to keep expanding past that. scan a lot or scout with drops in the lategame so you can see any crazy tech swaps coming like mass ultra or mass muta, and dealing with those should be the same as if he were playing ling/bane/muta, just scout and prepare
On July 03 2015 06:16 AbsoSC2 wrote: Newish to SC2 (about a month now) and naturally gravitate towards Terran. I used to play a lot of BW, but this is obviously a different beast.
I'm stuck in gold now. I was platinum for a bit in the old map pool, but this new map pool really seems to be difficult for me (or I'm just still weak and have a more difficult league this time). Anyway, not too worried about league as I learn. Trying to get my APM up (135 or so now), not hunt so much for hot keys, fix up multitasking, etc... Any general tips for someone at this stage would help.
The issue is, I feel like mechanically I'm outplaying a lot of the players in the league I'm in, but still losing a lot of games. I seem faster, more aware, better at multitasking, etc.., but I guess I'm just a bit lost with terran, especially in the late mid game to late game. I'm playing bio vs zerg and toss right now and trying to make that work.
Vs Zerg: I find I have a good enough handle on early game. Most at this level prefer the roach/hydra game because I think it's less micro. I find that kind of match is pretty even for me most of the time with mmm, but then as we transition to late I get stomped a lot. They either throw in ultra or overwhelm once they get 4 base. Upgraded roach/hydra seem to trounce mmm, or if they don't on the first wave, their production wins out. Tried to add in some tanks and am now thinking of some raven.
Vs. Toss: As I said, I'm trying to figure out a drop heavy bio style to keep them on their toes. I guess I need more practice, because I find that it plays out much like vs Zerg. If I don't win early or mid, I get stomped late by 4+ colossus armies. Vikings I guess, but I spend a lot trying to be aggro with medivac + mm drops. If they fend those off, I get lost mid/late.
My general impression right now is that terran is to be played aggressively and you HAVE to do damage from beginning to end and keep them contained somewhat. Whereas, zerg and toss are trying to get to late game where terran runs out of options (haven't tried a mech game yet, one thing at a time). Watching pro games, I see a very similar trend. The good terrans even seem to lose when zerg get to 4+ base and toss to 3+. So, I've really been concentrating on an aggressive game with multiple attack angles. If I sit back too passively, I almost always get stomped.
Thoughts?
Yes, this is quite an astute observation. You might compare Terran in Sc2 slightly to BW Protoss where for example in PvT you have the initiative in the early/midgame. The same is true for TvP and TvZ in sc2 for Terran. Typically if the Zerg player gets to 4 base vs 3 base in TvZ and the Protoss gets a maxed our army in TvP, you are in a very rough situation.
TvZ bio is a very mechanically demanding MU (a bit like the sk terran comp in BW) and you need to be continually pressuring the zergs 4th/3rd expansions, trying to deny mining and hitting your upgrade timings ASAP
TvP has become extremely aggressive in korean meta due to the strength of mines/medivac harass. Generally most Terran's in the matchup try to win the game before the protoss gets a maxed army on 3-4 bases.
On June 28 2015 05:03 Barracuda8 wrote: A few questions about TvZ and TvP
I barely play Bio in TvZ because i don't know how to. However i've been reading the "TvZ: A modern guide" and I understand that you have to push around 11.30 ish to clean creep and harass zerg's fourth, right?. That way, Mutas won't be harassing @ your base and things like that because you force Z to stay @ home. However, i've watched some vods and i've noticed that some pros start their attack around 14ish mins. Why is that?
When going Mech, how do I deal with Z that try to take all the map and expand everywhere?.
Also, how should I play mech? Turtling until my 2-2 is ready? or try to be aggressive with hellions runbies?
About TvP:
What's better, going for 5 rax before third, or going for a fast third ?
This question has a few layers to it and I can answer over the next couple days in more length.
Quickly, Regarding TvP: This is just subjective depending on what you scouted from your opponent and whether or not the map is easy to abuse medivac harass off 2 bases. Getting 5 rax before your third base gives you an earlier timing. Cure became known for this style during his run in the gsl s3 last year, along with his game against Trap at RBBG D.C.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aO6jMyLfeHQ - This game was quite significant in that it showed the incredible power of the 2 base 5 rax marauder/mine/medivac style that is has become more or less the standard way to play the modern macro game in Korean TvP. (Now Korean progamers even play the whole game vikingless, something Maru/Polt revolutionized).
To be clear: if your opponent is going to turtle on 2 bases-get your 3rd before your 4th + 5th rax, if you can do damage off 2 base v 2 base, get 5 rax before your 3rd.
Here's a couple common build orders top level Korean progamers used in these situations: (from my log)
3rd base off 3 rax into scv pull (the old standard build made famous by Flash/INnoVation, etc)
2. Standard Reaper Scout into 3 base timing push SCV pull (Flash vs Parting, Proleague Finals, Homestory Cup X. Merry Go Round) -10 Supply Depot (1) -12 Barracks (1) -12 Refinery -15 Orbital Command Upgrade (1) -15 Reaper -1 off gas -17 Command Center (2) -17 Reactor on Barracks (1) *All SCVs off Refinery -18 Supply Depot (2) -20 Marines *@300 Minerals - Barracks (2 & 3 ), 3 SCVs back on Refinery -26 Supply Depot (3) -27 Orbital Command Upgrade (2) -30 Tech Lab on Barracks (2) -31 -Supply Depot (4) -35 Marauder (1) -42 Stimpack, or Concussive Shells
Notes: Marauder (1) is used for stopping Stalker kiting as Terran's army moves across the map, keep the Marauder in front to tank, making any Stalker micro pointless.
If a Stargate is scouted, at any point, cut Marines to build an Engineering Bay immediately and move out with the first Marauder.
Retreat once Protoss uses Photon Overcharge after Marauder (1) poke, and attack again once it runs out or when Stimpack finishes, if researched before Concussive Shells.
Note: This was considered the ‘Standard’ TvP build in the previous meta. The goal of this build is to hit the protoss before he can get a large, upgraded colussus count. The timing to move out is around 15:00 with +1/+1. Only pull scv’after denying protoss third base without significant bio loss. (note this is considered an “all in,” as there are no transitions.) This build should be used primarily on maps with shorter rush distance that make CC first options too risky.
Here's is Cure's Variation of the 5 rax style off 2 base
8. Cure’s aggressive 2 base Marauder+Mine+Medivac (Redbull Battlegrounds D.C. Cure vs Trap) -10 Supply Depot -11 Barracks -11 Refinery -15 Orbital Command -15 Reaper, and pull 2 SCVs out of the Refinery ***You should now have 1 SCV mining gas @100% Reaper, start Reactor on Barracks @400 Mins, start 2nd Command Center -18 Supply Depot ————Above is Reaper FE -19 2nd Barracks -22 3rd Barracks, and put 2 SCVs back into the Refinery ***You should now have 3 SCVs mining gas ***You can start an optional Bunker here if you feel unsafe @100% 2nd Barracks, start Tech lab and 2nd Refinery @100% Tech lab, start Stimpack Research @100% 3rd Barracks, start Tech lab and begin constant double Marauder production @100 Gas, start Combat Shields ***Push out when your Stimpack/Combat Shields are 80% done (@8:00ish) with around 15 Marines and 7 Marauders with reinforcements rallied aggressively.
***You should have around 30 SCVs at home, and can now start a Factory at home for a standard Medivac follow-up.
***Attack your opponent’s natural when your Stimpack and Combat Shields finish (@8:50ish) with these 15 Marines and 7 Marauders.
(Note: Cure goes up to 5 rax and gets out medivacs+widow mines before he moves out. His first slight pressure is just for map control and mild containment.This is distinctly different than hearts stim timing, which is focused on moving out much earlier immediately after stim completion and before medivacs come out. Also cure focuses heavily on constant marine production before adding tech labs+marauders. This is done to prevent early blink stalkers/early oracles from doing damage. Also note how cure uses widow mines to split up the protoss army and weaken the front of the protoss natural.)
One quick aside: why the 2 base medivac/marauder/marine is so good: the fundamental goal of a protoss player in PvT is to tech to colossus and fight with their maxed out army. the weakness that this strategy has is that gateway units are weak to Bio units until that point. Furthermore, with only 2 bases protoss players are often limited in gas which is required to tech to robo/templar tech. What Cure realized in fall of last year is that because widow mines were buffed against shields, and marauders/Medivacs > blink stalkers, you can trade cost effectively off 2 bases against a protoss players and force them to waste gas making stalkers which delays their tech timings. Furthermore what makes this so effective is that marauder/mine/medivac straight up beats blink stalkers in a head on engagement.
so you get into a situation where your army beats your opponents army, you can trade cost effectively, and you also don't delay your late game timing at all.
I'd like to type more now but I'm exhausted and I need to work in the morning.
Thank you so much, This is a great answer.
I watched that vid from Day9 and that aggression is incredible. It happens the same with Maru and Dream. I watch them a lot. I use to get my 3 cc before my 4th and 5th rax. }
I usually open with widow mine drop every tvp. I poke toss natural with 6-8 marines to force Overcharge and i drop 2 widow mines. Straight after that i build my 2 and 3 rax while my fac and starports are building techlabs. I don't usually open with 3 rax because i feel more vulnerable against some cheese (blink, dts, oracles, etc). When I open with 1-1-1 i feel a bit safer due to widow mines
So should i pull scv's at 15 mins only if i open with 3 rax?. It doesn't work if i open with a drop?
Sorry of the question is a bit naive.
Also, i'd appreciate a lot if you or someone else could aware me a bit about tvz (questions are above).
On June 28 2015 05:03 Barracuda8 wrote: A few questions about TvZ and TvP
I barely play Bio in TvZ because i don't know how to. However i've been reading the "TvZ: A modern guide" and I understand that you have to push around 11.30 ish to clean creep and harass zerg's fourth, right?. That way, Mutas won't be harassing @ your base and things like that because you force Z to stay @ home. However, i've watched some vods and i've noticed that some pros start their attack around 14ish mins. Why is that?
When going Mech, how do I deal with Z that try to take all the map and expand everywhere?.
Also, how should I play mech? Turtling until my 2-2 is ready? or try to be aggressive with hellions runbies?
About TvP:
What's better, going for 5 rax before third, or going for a fast third ?
This question has a few layers to it and I can answer over the next couple days in more length.
Quickly, Regarding TvP: This is just subjective depending on what you scouted from your opponent and whether or not the map is easy to abuse medivac harass off 2 bases. Getting 5 rax before your third base gives you an earlier timing. Cure became known for this style during his run in the gsl s3 last year, along with his game against Trap at RBBG D.C.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aO6jMyLfeHQ - This game was quite significant in that it showed the incredible power of the 2 base 5 rax marauder/mine/medivac style that is has become more or less the standard way to play the modern macro game in Korean TvP. (Now Korean progamers even play the whole game vikingless, something Maru/Polt revolutionized).
To be clear: if your opponent is going to turtle on 2 bases-get your 3rd before your 4th + 5th rax, if you can do damage off 2 base v 2 base, get 5 rax before your 3rd.
Here's a couple common build orders top level Korean progamers used in these situations: (from my log)
3rd base off 3 rax into scv pull (the old standard build made famous by Flash/INnoVation, etc)
2. Standard Reaper Scout into 3 base timing push SCV pull (Flash vs Parting, Proleague Finals, Homestory Cup X. Merry Go Round) -10 Supply Depot (1) -12 Barracks (1) -12 Refinery -15 Orbital Command Upgrade (1) -15 Reaper -1 off gas -17 Command Center (2) -17 Reactor on Barracks (1) *All SCVs off Refinery -18 Supply Depot (2) -20 Marines *@300 Minerals - Barracks (2 & 3 ), 3 SCVs back on Refinery -26 Supply Depot (3) -27 Orbital Command Upgrade (2) -30 Tech Lab on Barracks (2) -31 -Supply Depot (4) -35 Marauder (1) -42 Stimpack, or Concussive Shells
Notes: Marauder (1) is used for stopping Stalker kiting as Terran's army moves across the map, keep the Marauder in front to tank, making any Stalker micro pointless.
If a Stargate is scouted, at any point, cut Marines to build an Engineering Bay immediately and move out with the first Marauder.
Retreat once Protoss uses Photon Overcharge after Marauder (1) poke, and attack again once it runs out or when Stimpack finishes, if researched before Concussive Shells.
Note: This was considered the ‘Standard’ TvP build in the previous meta. The goal of this build is to hit the protoss before he can get a large, upgraded colussus count. The timing to move out is around 15:00 with +1/+1. Only pull scv’after denying protoss third base without significant bio loss. (note this is considered an “all in,” as there are no transitions.) This build should be used primarily on maps with shorter rush distance that make CC first options too risky.
Here's is Cure's Variation of the 5 rax style off 2 base
8. Cure’s aggressive 2 base Marauder+Mine+Medivac (Redbull Battlegrounds D.C. Cure vs Trap) -10 Supply Depot -11 Barracks -11 Refinery -15 Orbital Command -15 Reaper, and pull 2 SCVs out of the Refinery ***You should now have 1 SCV mining gas @100% Reaper, start Reactor on Barracks @400 Mins, start 2nd Command Center -18 Supply Depot ————Above is Reaper FE -19 2nd Barracks -22 3rd Barracks, and put 2 SCVs back into the Refinery ***You should now have 3 SCVs mining gas ***You can start an optional Bunker here if you feel unsafe @100% 2nd Barracks, start Tech lab and 2nd Refinery @100% Tech lab, start Stimpack Research @100% 3rd Barracks, start Tech lab and begin constant double Marauder production @100 Gas, start Combat Shields ***Push out when your Stimpack/Combat Shields are 80% done (@8:00ish) with around 15 Marines and 7 Marauders with reinforcements rallied aggressively.
***You should have around 30 SCVs at home, and can now start a Factory at home for a standard Medivac follow-up.
***Attack your opponent’s natural when your Stimpack and Combat Shields finish (@8:50ish) with these 15 Marines and 7 Marauders.
(Note: Cure goes up to 5 rax and gets out medivacs+widow mines before he moves out. His first slight pressure is just for map control and mild containment.This is distinctly different than hearts stim timing, which is focused on moving out much earlier immediately after stim completion and before medivacs come out. Also cure focuses heavily on constant marine production before adding tech labs+marauders. This is done to prevent early blink stalkers/early oracles from doing damage. Also note how cure uses widow mines to split up the protoss army and weaken the front of the protoss natural.)
One quick aside: why the 2 base medivac/marauder/marine is so good: the fundamental goal of a protoss player in PvT is to tech to colossus and fight with their maxed out army. the weakness that this strategy has is that gateway units are weak to Bio units until that point. Furthermore, with only 2 bases protoss players are often limited in gas which is required to tech to robo/templar tech. What Cure realized in fall of last year is that because widow mines were buffed against shields, and marauders/Medivacs > blink stalkers, you can trade cost effectively off 2 bases against a protoss players and force them to waste gas making stalkers which delays their tech timings. Furthermore what makes this so effective is that marauder/mine/medivac straight up beats blink stalkers in a head on engagement.
so you get into a situation where your army beats your opponents army, you can trade cost effectively, and you also don't delay your late game timing at all.
I'd like to type more now but I'm exhausted and I need to work in the morning.
Thank you so much, This is a great answer.
I watched that vid from Day9 and that aggression is incredible. It happens the same with Maru and Dream. I watch them a lot. I use to get my 3 cc before my 4th and 5th rax. }
I usually open with widow mine drop every tvp. I poke toss natural with 6-8 marines to force Overcharge and i drop 2 widow mines. Straight after that i build my 2 and 3 rax while my fac and starports are building techlabs. I don't usually open with 3 rax because i feel more vulnerable against some cheese (blink, dts, oracles, etc). When I open with 1-1-1 i feel a bit safer due to widow mines
So should i pull scv's at 15 mins only if i open with 3 rax?. It doesn't work if i open with a drop?
Sorry of the question is a bit naive.
Also, i'd appreciate a lot if you or someone else could aware me a bit about tvz (questions are above).
Thank you once again for your great answer .
The basic point of doing an scv pull is hitting an upgrade timing where your opponent has no templar tech (storms remove a lot of the point of doing the scv pull.) So if you are able to get in a position where you think your opponent won't be able to hold an scv pull, go for it.
Also there is a video linked in the above post that goes a lot more in depth about it.
For TvZ I'll use a few Flash games to give you an example of a good way to play the macro game:
here's a game in proleague against Byul earlier this year.
This is his standard build in the MU:
You can see his first 2 medivacs pop at around 11:00 minutes and instead of clearing creep he does a drop in the main base. This pulls a large part of his opponents army out of position and forces a bunch of unwanted lings from the zerg. After dealing with a runby he rallies the rest of his army to the 4th base and kills it off.
You can choose to do either (clear creep or do a drop).
The thing about TvZ bio vs mutalingbane is that you really need to be constantly pressuring your opponent with bio, always reinforcing, trying to deny expansions, etc. If you let your opponent get map control with mutalisks/ling runby's it starts to delay the Terran timings and you start losing economy (TvZ is a game of cost-efficiency and economy primarily)
Also, you need to learn to use widow mines well to get the most from the matchup.
here's a nice standard build for the MU (bio):
6. Flash’s New Age TvZ (Mashup, 2015 Proleague games)
Standard Macro Bio Game: FlaSh vs Byul, Merry Go Round, Proleague 3/3/15
-13 (scv scout, you must scout with an scv to prevent being all-inned with all cc first builds, Flash has learned this after many losses) -14 cc -16 Barracks -17 Gas -18 depot -After Barracks completion, marine production (x2) -with barracks completion, bunker in natural and wall off with depots immediately. -reactor on barracks -factory -27 CC out of site @ 400 minerals -swap reactor onto factory, hellion production -2nd gas -Tech lab on Barracks, stim -double ebay -double gas -after 6 hellions complete, Swap factory off reactor, reactor -Add 2 barracks (one on reactor) -Starport when money allows -immediately after starport, 2x barracks -@100% starport, swap with factory reactor -reactor on factory, widow mine production
@11:00 and with 2 first medivacs, fill with marines and move out with upgrade advantage. In this game flash kills a ton of lings/drones and moves into a solid midgame position. -@around 150 supply army, add second factory and tech lab w/drilling claws, produce 3 thors (max with this while producing 2x mines from original factory)
Notes: Flash has clearly taken notes from SKT1 Dream’s mechanical style. His macro game is 6x REACTORED barracks + 1x Tech lab for stim/combat shields/concussive shells. What is unqie to this build is that flash adds in a new twist: he dedicates one hotkey + 1 medivac to constant mine drops while playing his standard macro game 3/3 timing push. What is VITAL to this composition is keeping track of mutalisk positioning on the map. Flash executes this strategy nearly flawlessly and cuts apart Byul’s drone count while pushing his outer base with his heavily upgrade marine/medivac army. Another nice thing about this build is that he uses thors instead of marauders to tank baneling hits in fights, without removing the anti-air capabilities that marines also have to deal with heavy-mutalisk oriented compositions. I believe flash produces 6 hellions instead of 4 with the fundamental acknowledgement that he lacks a lot of the typical creep clearing potential that more marauder heavy strategies have (think Polt’s TvZ).
Regarding Mech, even many top level Progamers don't do a great job denying expansions and gas income. Here's a Flash game that I liked though which shows a more active way to play the macro game:
What to do in TvT when my oppenent do somekind of doom drop- drop his marines and tanks behind mineral lines and slowly kill me because i cant engage. This realy makes me hate this matchup. I play bio, do banshee build, after that I know I must do marines maruders and tanks but I dont realy know how to use them. I can def only and wait to fail engage of my enemy but this is not happend often and its lame. If I try attack his base well he usally too have tanks so moving across the ramp is not a thing.
I dont want to play mech btw.
Also what is best thing/time to know when to drop or not drop in TvT
If you are playing Marine/tank vs marine/tank you do not want Marauders. If you play vs a meching opponent then yes you do want Marauders.
There is no magic time to drop or not drop. Your decision needs to be based on opportunity. If you can get in a good position with a drop and trade well then do it. Sieging up a mineral line is nice but the real killer is when you get a good sieged position where you are able to get on top of his production facilities and absolutely cripple his ability to produce any units and to immediately kill the ones that come out. Killing add-ons even is huge in TvT which are probably the first things I target when I have a strong position. I like to aim for tech labbed factories immediately and halt any tank production. This is damage you can do almost instantly. Sure killing the entire factory is "better" but in that time you can probably kill a few addons which evens out AND you are guaranteed to get something because of the hit points of an addon vs an entire building.
To protect against doom drops work on your map awareness specifically the usage of spotter Marines. Also I'm a firm believer in the sensor tower being underused in bio vs bio games. Mech players love them but they can have huge connotations in TvT where both players go bio. Not only does it help you see actual enemy movements but in and of itself it helps to deter huge drops because your opponent expects you to be ready and is less likely to commit.
Back in the days SelecT (I think it was him) made a vod showing why MULEs had to be launched on the furthest mineral patches. It avoids the micro move of moving the MULE away before it wastes its last 30 mineral by dying just before the end of its last trip and it gives the same amount of minerals. Another advantage imho being that it deplets minerals patches with more harmony, instead of having the closest patches dying too fast. Day[9] even mentionnned this in one of his daylies, saying that any terran should follow SelecT's advice.
Yet, 3 (4?) years later I still see most pros drop mules on close patches. From what I tested, dropping a MULE on a close patch (and micro'ing it way) may give you a temporary advantage of less than 15 mins/minute, and it's only temporary because it doesn't allow you to drop mules faster, so in the end it's still 270 minerals every 89 seconds or so.
Did I miss something or is it like when pro zerg (like Life) use the extractor trick to get at 11/10 supplies : it's useless but they still do it because it's not something they pay much attention to?
EPT
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