EPTThe HotS Terran Help Me Thread - Page 354
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dchaudh
58 Posts
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On May 24 2015 04:04 dchaudh wrote: Does anyone have replays of TvTs in which one player holds off the opponent's 2 rax reaper / mass reaper with a fast-expand type build? I looked on spawning tool but did not find any replays classified as 2 rax reaper or mass reaper. Ealry reapers is an all too common strategy at the Silver/Gold level and it would be great to be able to see any relevant replays. Define 'Fast-Expand' build. Any variation of 1 Rax FE will struggle to some extent vs 2 rax reaper. I would reccommend trying a gas first build (Probably the 6 marine / 3 hellion / medivac build) from this guide, which would still get you a relatively early expansion and be much safer. | ||
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dchaudh
58 Posts
So I guess any replays which demonstrate how to hold off a 2 rax reaper or mass reaper would be helpful... P.S. I took a look at the site and none of the builds really address how to deal with early reapers (i.e., from 2 rax reaper or mass reaper builds) - did I miss something obvious? The reapers start to be a real nuisance beginning at 4:30-5:00 which is well before we can have a tank or banshees out P.P.S. Here is a replay where reaper harass prevents me from starting my expo at ~6:30 or so - the harass also ends up picking off my units one by one as they're produced - so by the time he drops in my base, I don't really have much to defend (my banshee is in his base but wouldn't have been of much use anyways against his marines + medivac). My opponent was particularly good for a fellow silver. Be warned: I'm not a good player by any means: https://sc2replaystats.com/replay/1636989 | ||
Jer99
Canada8160 Posts
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dchaudh
58 Posts
On May 24 2015 07:21 Jer99 wrote: Can you post a replay? I updated my original post to include a replay | ||
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Jer99
Canada8160 Posts
That's longer than it takes for a marine to finish, so right from the start you are already behind by over a full marine production cycle. The reaper got to your base before your marine was finished. Another note, you made a reactor before having a significant number of marines out. In a situation like this where you scout him continuously making reapers, you need to make marines non-stop, start hellion production ASAP and get the starport down as well for a counter. Here are the keys to take away from this game:
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dchaudh
58 Posts
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Jer99
Canada8160 Posts
On May 24 2015 08:09 dchaudh wrote: Okay, thanks for reviewing - I will look up gas-first replays on spawning tool so I can benchmark my build execuition (e.g., the late barracks). Yes, lapse on my part to not start making marines right away. Next time, I'll wait until his reapers are dead before making add-ons. Here's a replay using the 6 marine, 3 hellion elevator strategy. The benchmarks in that game are near optimal; study it, practice it yourself in SALT, and then use it on ladder | ||
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dchaudh
58 Posts
On May 24 2015 09:40 Jer99 wrote: Here's a replay using the 6 marine, 3 hellion elevator strategy. The benchmarks in that game are near optimal; study it, practice it yourself in SALT, and then use it on ladder tyvm for the replay. those are indeed absurdly fast times! is it okay to not scout in TvT (as per the replay)? i would imagine that scouting would likely push these times back a bit (but the result would still be well before the times that I achieved in my game). just wondering if i'm wasting mining-time by sending out a scout; given bronze/silver/gold leaguers propensity to wall very quickly (at the expense of scv production), i usually send out the scv that builds the 10 depot so i can see their gas timings. | ||
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Jer99
Canada8160 Posts
On May 24 2015 11:11 dchaudh wrote: tyvm for the replay. those are indeed absurdly fast times! is it okay to not scout in TvT (as per the replay)? i would imagine that scouting would likely push these times back a bit (but the result would still be well before the times that I achieved in my game). just wondering if i'm wasting mining-time by sending out a scout; given bronze/silver/gold leaguers propensity to wall very quickly (at the expense of scv production), i usually send out the scv that builds the 10 depot so i can see their gas timings. If you do choose to scout, it would push your build back by 10 seconds max, which in itself is significant enough in a drop build. What i recommend is to just scout with your first hellion; your first hellion is literally the fastest possible factory unit that can be made in a game, and therefore you can be aggressive with it in its scouting and patrolling across the map, which is somewhat showcased in that replay (save killing off the reaper). What i recommend is to rally marines to common reaper locations, send your first hellion to their natural, and up their ramp to scout what they're doing, and engage the drop after your 6 marines and 3 hellions are done. Without a scout, it's still safe to go gas first into a barracks. If they proxy a marauder, you'll have enough marines to deal with it with some SCVs pulled' with a reaper first, you don't even have to pull SCVs to fend off the reaper, your two marines will be plenty. If they continue to produce marines, not to worry. With the 6 marine, 3 hellion build, you'll have constantly made marines to fend off that cheddar, and hellions to pick off the straggling reapers. IMO it's the safest opening as of now for TvT. It has the offensive potential, the defensive warding, and the transition potential into what you want to do. | ||
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tokicheese
Canada739 Posts
I have been doing a Reaper FE build into mine drop I can hold 90% of the all ins that I face but I just can't close out a game. Even if I do a ton of damage with the mine drop I just can't keep up. In this game I got 6 worker kills and then 4 for a total of 10 more because he had 0 detection. He went blink but didn't attempt to attack and backed off. I don't really know when to attack a Toss because I just get shit on whenever I do. If I go early OC kills me and if I go to late I just get destroyed by warp in after the fight. I can kill the first army usually and then get steam rolled by zealot reinforcements. I attacked around half way into the game and killed his 3rd but he still had a 4th and he held the fight. I just don't understand how I can do damage. Does my micro just suck? Or am I picking all the wrong times to fight? http://sc2replaystats.com/replay/1640963 Thanks for any help | ||
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
On May 25 2015 17:41 tokicheese wrote: So I really cannot figure out TvP. Right now my winrate is 21% in TvP 77% and 61% in TvZ. I think part of it is that I psyche myself out when going into TvP. I have been doing a Reaper FE build into mine drop I can hold 90% of the all ins that I face but I just can't close out a game. Even if I do a ton of damage with the mine drop I just can't keep up. In this game I got 6 worker kills and then 4 for a total of 10 more because he had 0 detection. He went blink but didn't attempt to attack and backed off. I don't really know when to attack a Toss because I just get shit on whenever I do. If I go early OC kills me and if I go to late I just get destroyed by warp in after the fight. I can kill the first army usually and then get steam rolled by zealot reinforcements. I attacked around half way into the game and killed his 3rd but he still had a 4th and he held the fight. I just don't understand how I can do damage. Does my micro just suck? Or am I picking all the wrong times to fight? http://sc2replaystats.com/replay/1640963 Thanks for any help Hi, fellow diamond here who used to struggle against P and found out how to deal with them. First, there are several things that are not optimal in your build in my opinion. Your SCV scout is off : it's too early and you miss the second pylon in his main, which is (along with the gaz timing) the main thing your scv is looking for. prefer a 13 or 14 scout. Second I don't see why you don't build your 2nd CC in your nat, it's an unecessary loss of time. Moreover with a 13 scout, you can keep your reaper around your base and find his drone (and proxies when they exist). Then, you build a bunch of marines that have absolutely no use. and only drop with 2 mines when you could have pressured his nat with marines. Your scv production is off, even if you kill 11 of his workers (usually a game ending advantage) you're still behind and have 39 scv at 10 minutes when you should have 50 at the very least. Why blue flame? Why start stim and shield so late? etc. Second, your mindset is not good, you're overly defensive you overreact on the 3 gate blink, you put planetary + bunkers on the third and stay iddle in your base for too long, which is a shame because not only you often have a better army, but also your engagements are pretty decent. You do a few drops here and there, but it's always one thing at a time when you should really use drops to put his army out of position and make multipronged attacks. in the end by being so defensive you hurt yourself more than him and that's how you let him win this game. In conclusion, you're totally in a lack of confidence syndrom, which you will only break by getting a better build and learn to use it perfectly. To fix the build you can check for example this article, it's the standard mine drop play in the current meta. (you'll copy Maru when you'll be hyper confident, not before  )It will imho fix your mindset too, because when executed well, this build is agressive enough to keep the Protoss in the ropes until you beat him eventually. Practice it, work on the marco and the strategy that goes with it and you'll be fine. Good luck. | ||
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dchaudh
58 Posts
On May 24 2015 17:32 Jer99 wrote: If you do choose to scout, it would push your build back by 10 seconds max, which in itself is significant enough in a drop build. What i recommend is to just scout with your first hellion; your first hellion is literally the fastest possible factory unit that can be made in a game, and therefore you can be aggressive with it in its scouting and patrolling across the map, which is somewhat showcased in that replay (save killing off the reaper). What i recommend is to rally marines to common reaper locations, send your first hellion to their natural, and up their ramp to scout what they're doing, and engage the drop after your 6 marines and 3 hellions are done. Without a scout, it's still safe to go gas first into a barracks. If they proxy a marauder, you'll have enough marines to deal with it with some SCVs pulled' with a reaper first, you don't even have to pull SCVs to fend off the reaper, your two marines will be plenty. If they continue to produce marines, not to worry. With the 6 marine, 3 hellion build, you'll have constantly made marines to fend off that cheddar, and hellions to pick off the straggling reapers. IMO it's the safest opening as of now for TvT. It has the offensive potential, the defensive warding, and the transition potential into what you want to do. I just played a game in which I did a marine hellion elevator which dropped in his base by about 6:45 (which is admittedly ~15 seconds slower than your replay) which did not at all hold up against the 9 reapers that my opponent had amassed by that point: https://sc2replaystats.com/replay/1642075 (In retrospect, I think I could have held his counter attack if I had started tank and marine production immediately after the add-ons completed but I'm not sure if I made a mistake with how I went about the elevator/drop itself.) In this particular game, should I have gone on the defensive after seeing so many reapers (assuming I scouted with the first hellion)? In-game, I elected not to scout with the first hellion bc i wanted to focus on getting as fast of a timing as possible (and multitasking would have delayed me, inevitably). Or was the issue that I engaged poorly with my forces? How would others have handled the elevator/drop differently if you were in my shoes? (It felt as though my opponent deflected it with ease.) | ||
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Jer99
Canada8160 Posts
On May 26 2015 06:55 dchaudh wrote: I just played a game in which I did a marine hellion elevator which dropped in his base by about 6:45 (which is admittedly ~15 seconds slower than your replay) which did not at all hold up against the 9 reapers that my opponent had amassed by that point: https://sc2replaystats.com/replay/1642075 (In retrospect, I think I could have held his counter attack if I had started tank and marine production immediately after the add-ons completed but I'm not sure if I made a mistake with how I went about the elevator/drop itself.) In this particular game, should I have gone on the defensive after seeing so many reapers (assuming I scouted with the first hellion)? In-game, I elected not to scout with the first hellion bc i wanted to focus on getting as fast of a timing as possible (and multitasking would have delayed me, inevitably). Or was the issue that I engaged poorly with my forces? How would others have handled the elevator/drop differently if you were in my shoes? (It felt as though my opponent deflected it with ease.) I've honestly never seen the 3 reactored barracks mass reaper strategy before. Judging from the replay, it would have been better to just pull back instead of committing to the attack, get a tank back at home, and a bunker, and just play the defensive game. He's invested so heavily into this aggressive build, and siege tanks will easily defend your mineral line from these mass reapers. If I were in your shoes, after seeing the 3 barracks, all the reactors, and such a high number of reapers, I would know it's a mass reaper strategy. I would save the hellions in the medivac along with 2 marines (the other marines will die to the reapers), bunker your mineral line (like you started), start constant siege tank production and abandon the natural (don't cancel the command center, just lift it into your main base). Eventually you will be able to take your natural, and from this point you'll be so far ahead in tech and economy that you can either win with a big push, or go for drops and slowly pick apart his economy. | ||
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dabosaur
Sweden95 Posts
 I'm having a bit trouble vs zerg these days especially versus early roaches. If I do a 1-3 reaper-cc-cc-hellion build and scout he's going roaches really early, do i want: 1. 3 rax(2 naked 1 techlab), 1 factory(reactor pumping wm) and late starport? 2. 3 rax(2 reactor 1 techlab), 1 factory(makes reactors) and faster starport? 3. 1/1/1 banshee with reactor on rax or factory? From seeing no gas with reaper I usually make 3 marauders blind. Is this delaying my production too much aswell? | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On May 27 2015 22:55 dabosaur wrote: Hi I'm having a bit trouble vs zerg these days especially versus early roaches. If I do a 1-3 reaper-cc-cc-hellion build and scout he's going roaches really early, do i want: 1. 3 rax(2 naked 1 techlab), 1 factory(reactor pumping wm) and late starport? 2. 3 rax(2 reactor 1 techlab), 1 factory(makes reactors) and faster starport? 3. 1/1/1 banshee with reactor on rax or factory? From seeing no gas with reaper I usually make 3 marauders blind. Is this delaying my production too much aswell? What timing of 'early' roaches are you talking about? Usually no gas means at earliest a 8-9 minute roach/bane or a ~10-11 minute roach / nydus or 1/1 speedroach timing. For timings earlier than that, a bunker with 1-2 mauraders and 2 widow mines (and a reactor factory pumping hellions) should be sufficient as long as you pull SCVs early. For a 8-10 minute roach / baneling, you'll need ~3 bunkers and a tank or banshee(s). For the 11 minute roach timing, ~3 bunkers and 1-2 tanks or ~4 widow mines is usually sufficient, but you need to keep constant defense until you're certain your opponent is pulling back or you can force him to pull back with a drop. 1/1/1 with Banshee is always going to be a better / more versatile defensive setup than early 3 rax, especially coming off of 3cc. 1 Banshee will basically shut down any pre 8 minute 2 base roach timing on it's own. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
On May 29 2015 12:14 Danglars wrote: New go-to map bans for Terran 1v1? Preference for defeating early game cheese. No map has to be banned in regard of early game cheese, they're all reasonnably defendable, even Inferno pools horizontal position is ok. It's minor factor compated to other cheese defense basics, like scouting and build order for example... | ||
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Ty2
United States1434 Posts
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KonanTenshi
Sweden210 Posts
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