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Canada8159 Posts
On April 27 2015 08:15 Nicoff1 wrote:Hello there, Platinum Terran on EU here, who is having long time issues with TvP, especially on engaging the Protoss Army. http://ggtracker.com/matches/5949229Here's one example of a game going horribly wrong, i feel like i'm quite ahead and decide to scv pull on three bases. Any help is appreciated, i know the theory of how to engage a Protoss but i feel most of the time i'm really cost ineffective and end up losing solely because of awful fights. Thanks a lot.
Keep the reaper alive, it's key in scouting mid game options out of the Protoss.
You weren't that far ahead, if at all. The Protoss was only a minute behind on his third base, and had superior upgrades to your bio. As for the SCV pull, you only pulled 13 SCVs which definitely isn't enough. You're going to want to pull 30+ in a situation like this, and focus more on your macro. You were floating 2k minerals at the start of the engagement, imagine having 20 more marauders for the push.
Some other notes, try getting your 5 rax up much earlier, you were on 3 barracks until 11:52, and at that time you only drop your fourth. The 5th one comes much later at 13:55, and on a 3 base SCV pull this is around the time you want to be hitting the Protoss. You make a second starport, but you don't use it until much later to build vikings. A scan revealed that your opponent had 3 colossus and a few void rays, you'll want at least 14 vikings vs this while you only had 11 for the first engagement.
Another thing, you idled/delayed the push for a bit. Your units were just outside of his base waiting to go in, and in that time, the Protoss finished their +2 weapons and charge on their zealots. Had you not waited, i'm almost convinced that the fight would have ended in your favor.
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On April 26 2015 13:23 dchaudh wrote:
What are good heuristics/rules of thumb for figuring out how many production facilities AND research facilities can be supported on 2 bases? 3 bases? This would be for a marine-heavy bioball strategy so relevant production facilities are barracks (some reactored, some w/ techlab) and reactored starport(s); relevant upgrades are stim/shield/concussive/attack/armor.
Unfortunately, SC2Calc doesn't take research into account. Moreover, I'd prefer to rely on something that more experienced players use in-game as there are always factors that the simple income/spending model doesn't consider.
For example: these are (most likely) wrong but these would be the types of heuristics I was hoping someone might know of: e.g., 1 e-bay on 2 bases, 2 e-bays + armory on 3-bases. The ideal rules would ofc need to consider production facilities also but that might be overcomplicating it.
I know there are builds/videos that go up until the 10 minute mark but it would be helpful to have a few simple rules of thumb to follow in case *@?! hits the fan at some point in the early/early-mid game and I need to adjust on the fly.
a single saturated base provides roughly 600minerals and 250-300gas per 1minute production cycle (this excludes the cost of constant supply depots being made), which translates to roughly 3facilties and about 12 cargo worth of units per minute
2ebays equal roughly 1facility.
you often combine 4cargo of minerals with 8cargo of gas unless you play bio which is more mineral heavy, which leaves you with some spare gas.
mineral heavy: can mass these easily and leave you with spare gas
marines
marauders
hellions
hybrid: can produce these without leaving either minerals or gas left.
ghost
mines
vikings
gas heavy: cannot exceed half your mineral income due to gas constraints
siege tank
thor
medivac
banshee
battlecruiser
gas extreme: eats up gas at extreme rates, taking up almost the entire gas production of a base but only 1/6th the mineral income
raven
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Thanks Pursuit and Meavis - I appreciate the thought-out responses.
A couple follow-up questions:
On April 27 2015 06:26 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2015 13:23 dchaudh wrote:
What are good heuristics/rules of thumb for figuring out how many production facilities AND research facilities can be supported on 2 bases? 3 bases? This would be for a marine-heavy bioball strategy so relevant production facilities are barracks (some reactored, some w/ techlab) and reactored starport(s); relevant upgrades are stim/shield/concussive/attack/armor.
Unfortunately, SC2Calc doesn't take research into account. Moreover, I'd prefer to rely on something that more experienced players use in-game as there are always factors that the simple income/spending model doesn't consider.
For example: these are (most likely) wrong but these would be the types of heuristics I was hoping someone might know of: e.g., 1 e-bay on 2 bases, 2 e-bays + armory on 3-bases. The ideal rules would ofc need to consider production facilities also but that might be overcomplicating it.
I know there are builds/videos that go up until the 10 minute mark but it would be helpful to have a few simple rules of thumb to follow in case *@?! hits the fan at some point in the early/early-mid game and I need to adjust on the fly. It all depends on playstyle ect. Here are a few general rules to help you figure out what works for you. 1 Base Greed= None 1 Base Eco= 1 Rax 1 Base Aggressive= 1 Rax 1 Fact 1 Port 2 Base Greed= 1 Rax, 1 Rax 1 Fact 2 Base Eco= 3 Rax 1 Port 2 Base Aggressive = 5 Rax 1 Fact 1-2 Port3 Base Early (not fully saturated) = 5 Rax 1-2 Fact 1-2 Port 3 Base Later (fully saturated, potentially taking 4th) = 8 Rax 1-2 Fact 1-2 Port edit2: Generally speaking, 1 Tech Lab Rax then the rest Reactors in TvT, 2 Reactor Rax then the rest Tech Labs in TvP, 1 Tech lab Rax then 4 Reactor Rax then the rest Tech Lab Rax in TvZ. Factory is 1 Reactor 1 Tech Lab in TvZ, 1 Reactor in TvP (if you want to play widow mines, otherwise none), and all tech lab in TvT. Starport = Always Reactor (unless adding more than 1-2 for an air transition). edit: You need an additional Starport vs Collosi earlier, usually on 2 base, and in super late game I"ll add on even more rax (sometimes as many as 11->13) depending on how often I'm trading my army (general rule of thumb, less trading = more production). About Upgrades; Upgrades have a high up-front cost but a very low cost / time. For example, +1 attack costs 100/100 but has a research time of 160. This means that you're only spending 37.5/37.5 per minute on the upgrade. Comparatively, you spend 120/0 and 200/50 per minute on marines and mauraders one at a time respectively, and 133.33/133.33 per minute on medivacs. The cost of upgrades over time is almost negligible, only the upfront cost is important. Typically, starting upgrades on 2 bases is reccommended, and then researching them nonstop until they're complete.
On April 28 2015 19:41 Meavis wrote:
a single saturated base provides roughly 600minerals and 250-300gas per 1minute production cycle (this excludes the cost of constant supply depots being made), which translates to roughly 3facilties and about 12 cargo worth of units per minute
2ebays equal roughly 1facility.
you often combine 4cargo of minerals with 8cargo of gas unless you play bio which is more mineral heavy, which leaves you with some spare gas.
mineral heavy: can mass these easily and leave you with spare gas
marines
marauders
hellions
hybrid: can produce these without leaving either minerals or gas left.
ghost
mines
vikings
gas heavy: cannot exceed half your mineral income due to gas constraints
siege tank
thor
medivac
banshee
battlecruiser
gas extreme: eats up gas at extreme rates, taking up almost the entire gas production of a base but only 1/6th the mineral income
raven
1) Just to confirm, is it possible to constantly produce marines/medivacs/tanks from 5 rax (4-reactored, 1-tech lab), 1 factory and 1 reactored starport off of 2 saturated bases? Or does this assume no e-bay/armory upgrades? I found myself short on both resources when trying this out (let alone being able to save up for a third)?
2) Generally speaking, is it okay to research both armor/attack upgrades in parallel (i.e., from 2 e-bays) when I'm still in process of saturating my second base? (I assume that stim/combat shield/+1 attack are must-have for a timing push - the real question is whether or not to throw down a second e-bay as this has implications for when we can get to +2/+2 or +3/+3.) Or would that be investing too heavily in tech at the expense of econ/army?
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On April 29 2015 03:41 dchaudh wrote:
Thanks Pursuit and Meavis - I appreciate the thought-out responses.
A couple follow-up questions:
1) Just to confirm, is it possible to constantly produce marines/medivacs/tanks from 5 rax (4-reactored, 1-tech lab), 1 factory and 1 reactored starport off of 2 saturated bases? Or does this assume no e-bay/armory upgrades? I found myself short on both resources when trying this out (let alone being able to save up for a third)?
2) Generally speaking, is it okay to research both armor/attack upgrades in parallel (i.e., from 2 e-bays) when I'm still in process of saturating my second base? (I assume that stim/combat shield/+1 attack are must-have for a timing push - the real question is whether or not to throw down a second e-bay as this has implications for when we can get to +2/+2 or +3/+3.) Or would that be investing too heavily in tech at the expense of econ/army?
In all honesty you can barely afford to produce units out of 5 Rax 1 Fact 1 Port if you have perfect macro, let alone upgrades. I'll break it down for you here.
2 base (~18+ on minerals, 6 on each gas) income- ~1350m/min ~460g/min
+2 MULES (~320m/min)= ~1670m/min ~460g/min
4 Reactor Rax Producing Marines = 960m/min 0g/min
1 tech lab Rax Producing Marines = 120m/min 0g/min
1 Tech Lab Factory Producing Tanks = 200m/min 167g/min
1 Reactor Starport Producing Medivacs = 267m/min 267g/min
total production cost = 1547m/min 434g/min
So you're pretty much right at your total mineral income after including the cost of Depots. A little under your gas income though. I'd keep in mind that the cost over time of upgrades is really, really small as I explained before, it's only the up front cost that seems 'expensive'. You also wont have perfect macro generally while being aggressive. I usually get 1 upgrade at a time with a setup similar to this. Also keep in mind that if you're producing constantly out of 5 rax 1 fact 1 port without taking a third you're relying on doing serious damage to your opponent or winning the game outright.
Here's a game with a similar production setup-
https://www.youtube.com/embed/5qNY6aoKVO0
edit: Fixed income on MULEs. Everything should be correct now.
As for your second question about upgrades, it really depends on the game. As a general rule of thumb, double upgrades while still saturating your second base is 'greedy' and should only be done after you have decent unit production up (like 3 rax starport or equivalent) or if you think / know your opponent is playing passive.
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On April 29 2015 05:02 Pursuit_ wrote:In all honesty you can barely afford to produce units out of 5 Rax 1 Fact 1 Port if you have perfect macro, let alone upgrades. I'll break it down for you here. 2 base (~18+ on minerals, 6 on each gas) income- ~1350m/min ~460g/min +2 MULES (~320m/min)= ~1670m/min ~460g/min 4 Reactor Rax Producing Marines = 960m/min 0g/min 1 tech lab Rax Producing Marines = 120m/min 0g/min 1 Tech Lab Factory Producing Tanks = 200m/min 167g/min 1 Reactor Starport Producing Medivacs = 267m/min 267g/min total production cost = 1547m/min 434g/min So you're pretty much right at your total mineral income after including the cost of Depots. A little under your gas income though. I'd keep in mind that the cost over time of upgrades is really, really small as I explained before, it's only the up front cost that seems 'expensive'. You also wont have perfect macro generally while being aggressive. I usually get 1 upgrade at a time with a setup similar to this. Also keep in mind that if you're producing constantly out of 5 rax 1 fact 1 port without taking a third you're relying on doing serious damage to your opponent or winning the game outright. Here's a game with a similar production setup- https://www.youtube.com/embed/5qNY6aoKVO0edit: Fixed income on MULEs. Everything should be correct now. As for your second question about upgrades, it really depends on the game. As a general rule of thumb, double upgrades while still saturating your second base is 'greedy' and should only be done after you have decent unit production up (like 3 rax starport or equivalent) or if you think / know your opponent is playing passive.
Awesome, this helps a lot. In particular, it makes me realize that (i) I'm implicitly doing a 2-base all-in because of how many production facilities I get prior to putting down my third base, and that (ii) I'm effectively playing greedy because I start getting double upgrades way way too early (by the 6-7 min mark, lol).
Thanks again sir
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Hey TL! I just saw a terran player on Pili's stream who did a reaper expand into a bunker block on pili's natural. The Terran finished the bunker and then delayed Pili's expansion for a long time using the reaper combined with the bunker.
I believe that the terran also salvaged the bunker after, regaining 75 minerals.
So this cost 25 minerals LESS than an engineering bay block, and seems to be alot more effective. How come more terran players do not do this on ladder?
What are the downsides to doing a bunker block compared to an engineering bay block?
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On April 30 2015 11:27 AkashSky wrote:
Hey TL! I just saw a terran player on Pili's stream who did a reaper expand into a bunker block on pili's natural. The Terran finished the bunker and then delayed Pili's expansion for a long time using the reaper combined with the bunker.
I believe that the terran also salvaged the bunker after, regaining 75 minerals.
So this cost 25 minerals LESS than an engineering bay block, and seems to be alot more effective. How come more terran players do not do this on ladder?
What are the downsides to doing a bunker block compared to an engineering bay block?
Engineering Bay has 850 health and builds in 30s, Bunker has 400 health and builds in 40s. Plus with a bunker the Protoss can have every combat unit attacking it while with an engineering bay block they need to keep one unit (Stalker or MsC) at home to deal with the reaper.
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On April 30 2015 14:51 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2015 11:27 AkashSky wrote:
Hey TL! I just saw a terran player on Pili's stream who did a reaper expand into a bunker block on pili's natural. The Terran finished the bunker and then delayed Pili's expansion for a long time using the reaper combined with the bunker.
I believe that the terran also salvaged the bunker after, regaining 75 minerals.
So this cost 25 minerals LESS than an engineering bay block, and seems to be alot more effective. How come more terran players do not do this on ladder?
What are the downsides to doing a bunker block compared to an engineering bay block? Engineering Bay has 850 health and builds in 30s, Bunker has 400 health and builds in 40s. Plus with a bunker the Protoss can have every combat unit attacking it while with an engineering bay block they need to keep one unit (Stalker or MsC) at home to deal with the reaper.
You don't have to keep the reaper in the bunker, but i suppose that makes sense, although the zealot may be lost. Also, note that terran buildings have armor on them when they finish, but not when they are in construction. So, that means that the bunker and engineering bay health difference is slightly less than 350.
The time is a valid point though, and there may not be enough time to complete the bunker.
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Is there some sort of a Ghost nuke build for every matchup that I can do for fun? I want to:
-Get ghosts and nukes super fast and harass with them (Not a whole lot of Ghosts. I don't want my army to revolve around them. I want to have a small number to annoy the enemy and nuke his base)
-Have some sort of an economy and army going on while doing this
-Not lose completely terribly every game
Anyone know a general build order or strategy I can use to do this?
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On May 01 2015 05:18 Adrenalinz wrote:
Is there some sort of a Ghost nuke build for every matchup that I can do for fun? I want to:
-Get ghosts and nukes super fast and harass with them (Not a whole lot of Ghosts. I don't want my army to revolve around them. I want to have a small number to annoy the enemy and nuke his base)
-Have some sort of an economy and army going on while doing this
-Not lose completely terribly every game
Anyone know a general build order or strategy I can use to do this?
If you want to open nukes it's irrelevant which build you use because your build is terrible anyway.
You just need a barrack with techlab, a ghost academy and possibly a starport for dropplay, so barrack,gas,ghost academy, factory, starport is probably best.
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Is it possible to not play tank in TvT ? I HATE the tank wall vs tank wall where the first who get bored and attack lose the game.
In the last week, I played at least 30 TvT matches (70% win rate). Most went marine/tank into tank/viking/marine. And I usually win after a long boring game of siege/unsiege, crawling forward. I'm so bored of this matchup that I'm seriously thinking to stop playing starcraft.
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On May 04 2015 12:41 Oleum wrote:
Is it possible to not play tank in TvT ? I HATE the tank wall vs tank wall where the first who get bored and attack lose the game.
In the last week, I played at least 30 TvT matches (70% win rate). Most went marine/tank into tank/viking/marine. And I usually win after a long boring game of siege/unsiege, crawling forward. I'm so bored of this matchup that I'm seriously thinking to stop playing starcraft.
It sounds like you need to mess around and let loose, rather than try to win. I know you want to win, and you want to have fun, but sometimes when you get to a certain limit (like the situation you're in) where it can be beneficial in the long run to just mess around with a fun build rather than trying to win. After all, you're playing this game to have fun.
So, if you're bored, I suggest you devote some of your TvTs to a special build. I asked here for a ghost+nuke build (If you scroll up 3 posts, you will see my post) and I did that simply for fun. I have a thing called "Ghost Nuke Fridays" where I try to get ghosts and nukes every friday, for at least one game. I get to experiment and have fun. My winrate drops, but when I win, the games are exhilarating. And every week I get to add or remove parts of my strategy. I watch it grow, it's like a mini project.
You don't have to do ghosts, that's not the point. The point is that you are experimenting with something new and something that belongs to you (even if it means taking a hit to your MMR) in order to revitalize your passion for this game.
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On May 04 2015 12:41 Oleum wrote:
Is it possible to not play tank in TvT ? I HATE the tank wall vs tank wall where the first who get bored and attack lose the game.
In the last week, I played at least 30 TvT matches (70% win rate). Most went marine/tank into tank/viking/marine. And I usually win after a long boring game of siege/unsiege, crawling forward. I'm so bored of this matchup that I'm seriously thinking to stop playing starcraft.
Just play the game of flying medibus if you don't want to rely on careful positioning. Rarely do any TvT's deteriorate to marine / tank walls staring eachother down these days...
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On May 04 2015 12:41 Oleum wrote:
Is it possible to not play tank in TvT ? I HATE the tank wall vs tank wall where the first who get bored and attack lose the game.
In the last week, I played at least 30 TvT matches (70% win rate). Most went marine/tank into tank/viking/marine. And I usually win after a long boring game of siege/unsiege, crawling forward. I'm so bored of this matchup that I'm seriously thinking to stop playing starcraft.
What league are you playing? It seems to me that we haven't seen tank wall vs tanks wall with bio since WoL when medivacs were slow... Nowadays games are much more dynamic and maps usually give enough path to run a round a sieged army...
Maybe post a replay so we can figure out better what you're talking about?
If it can help, try to watch and copy Bomber's heavy marine style, just a few tanks and doom drops whenever it's possible. His games against polt (WCS NA) or MMA (blizzcon) were good examples if I rememeber correctly...
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Hey i'm just curious if anyone has 1 or 2 good cheeses for all matchups (hopefully they're basically the same). I need some good cheeses when I'm playing the same person multiple times lol.
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TvZ: on what information do I decide to go hellbats instead of widowmines and vice versa? I watched flashs stream today and he was varying these two units from game to game but I couldnt find out WHY he was doing it?
On May 06 2015 01:03 GingerAle wrote:
Hey i'm just curious if anyone has 1 or 2 good cheeses for all matchups (hopefully they're basically the same). I need some good cheeses when I'm playing the same person multiple times lol.
8-8-8 reaper or 11-11?
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On May 06 2015 01:39 SonGoku wrote:
TvZ: on what information do I decide to go hellbats instead of widowmines and vice versa? I watched flashs stream today and he was varying these two units from game to game but I couldnt find out WHY he was doing it?
I feel like Flash did that more on a "I feel like doing this right now" basis than anything else. Unless you really feel like using hellbat/bio over bio/mine, there's little reason not to produce mines over hellbats the longer the game goes, and there's certainly no unit cue that early in the game that tells you to keep making hellbat over mines (in bio macro games).
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On May 06 2015 01:39 SonGoku wrote:
TvZ: on what information do I decide to go hellbats instead of widowmines and vice versa? I watched flashs stream today and he was varying these two units from game to game but I couldnt find out WHY he was doing it?
I suppose theoretically, when Terran has mines, Zerg wants to send in small amounts of units to trigger them before trying to roll over the army, but when Terran is using hellbats, Zerg would prefer to hit all at once to try and maximise efficiency. Therefor if Terran is mixing it up, it makes it just that little bit more likely that Zerg will engage in a way that isn't optimal.
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Hi,
I struggle a lot against some cheese, and the core of the why is because i have so much difficulty to repair quickly my bunkers. Before all i'm master in each races, so the answer might be obvious but it's not and if you are master you probably understand why. Some cheese are very strong and come fast and you have to react instantly and perfectly.
Sometime it's ok like you see the roaches coming, so in the case i'm ok :
i put units in my bunker, i circle scv around, i click auto repair, i press Hold position.
But sometime i see it lastly, so i try to do react quickly, but :
- I have to burrow mines, split, fill bunker, pull scv, ... lot of work
- Most of the time as i'm faster with my kerboard i select scv and press repair on my bunker and then do the rest
BUT
Once they repaired it they stop repair and my opponent focus it and kill it fast.
OR
I click on auto repair even if i dont like clicking things ( no way to activate it without clicking ? ) but then they repair each other or supply depot beside, then my opponent will re-focus bunker and kill it while my scv repair other things...
So, here the question, what is for you, precisely, the good order of actions ? There is no other ways that circle then hold position then auto repair ( by clicking ) ?
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On May 10 2015 02:04 FlaShuuu wrote:
Hi,
I struggle a lot against some cheese, and the core of the why is because i have so much difficulty to repair quickly my bunkers. Before all i'm master in each races, so the answer might be obvious but it's not and if you are master you probably understand why. Some cheese are very strong and come fast and you have to react instantly and perfectly.
Sometime it's ok like you see the roaches coming, so in the case i'm ok :
i put units in my bunker, i circle scv around, i click auto repair, i press Hold position.
But sometime i see it lastly, so i try to do react quickly, but :
- I have to burrow mines, split, fill bunker, pull scv, ... lot of work
- Most of the time as i'm faster with my kerboard i select scv and press repair on my bunker and then do the rest
BUT
Once they repaired it they stop repair and my opponent focus it and kill it fast.
OR
I click on auto repair even if i dont like clicking things ( no way to activate it without clicking ? ) but then they repair each other or supply depot beside, then my opponent will re-focus bunker and kill it while my scv repair other things...
So, here the question, what is for you, precisely, the good order of actions ? There is no other ways that circle then hold position then auto repair ( by clicking ) ?
Ideally you have an scv or marine below the ramp granting vision. Since you're master, I'm assuming something went wrong with your build's scouting options so somehow they made it entirely crossmap before you scouted it. Maybe the reaper was busy scouting some other area/sniping drones and the roach warren was hidden.
Select SCVS -> Right Click Bunker -> Shift-HoldPositionKey -> Alt-RepairKey
*** SCVs surround bunker, holding position and repairing as they reach it.
Queueing up the hold command and AutoRepair before SCVs reach it frees you up to split/save/micro widow mines and other units.
Note: You can rally them back away after right click(/hold) to repair bunker to full then auto retreat a tiny bit and start repairing each other away from the front lines. This is obviously not fully applicable in most attacks where you'll be more focused on retreating injured scvs singly or as the situation demands. Just a good note in other matchups where you want them to repair each other back a pace and be ready to Right-Click+Hold. For me, its RClick->ShiftF
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EPT
