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(Apologies in advance if this is the wrong thread.)
Bronze/Silver Terran player here. I am losing my mind to early game Reaper harassment and I would appreciate any advice on how to deal with it while incurring minimum (or, ideally, zero) worker casualty. Please free to assume I'm a total idiot when it comes to SC2, i.e., pls spare no details.
Generally speaking, I'm just not sure how to protect my workers against a reaper and losing 3+ workers against a 12/12 Reaper FE just seems like a hopeless situation (I have been following this build in an effort to improve macro: 12 Rax / 15 Gas / 19 CC build). If I put marines around my main mineral line in response to the initial reaper (who will already have 2 or so kills by this point), my opponent usually has the reaper go after another SCV that's constructing something. And the reapers are so damn fast that it just feels hopeless =(
Here's an example of a game where I end up losing a handful of SCVs to a single reaper in the opening minutes: http://ggtracker.com/matches/5928368.
I elected not to put a bunker up because I didn't scout 2-rax - I have been facing better players lately (i.e., Gold - Diamond) and, based on a small sample size, it seems they tend to cheese more frequently than my Bronze/Silver brethren - hence the scouting) - in any case, I'm pretty sure one bunker can't cover a mineral line so I'd appreciate any tips on early-game micro.
P.S. I know I totally screw up my build in this particular game but that is something else for me to work on =) The focus of my question is reaper defense.
What you can do is also go 12 rax 12 gas reaper, and get two reapers. Scout with one, and keep one at home, if you mess up the defence you can bring back the scouting reaper.
Being in bronze league, your build order isn't particularly important and having two reapers will give you just a little bit of early game safety in order to get into the early mid-game stage.
Try something like:
-12 rax -12 gas -15 reaper/OC -reaper again -expand/reactor
Don't expect something like that to work forever though, because as your skill improves you will be particularly vulnerable to 1-1-1 builds. Making more than one reaper cuts a lot into your tech timing and also your marine count. But it will keep you alive in the meantime.
(Apologies in advance if this is the wrong thread.)
Bronze/Silver Terran player here. I am losing my mind to early game Reaper harassment and I would appreciate any advice on how to deal with it while incurring minimum (or, ideally, zero) worker casualty. Please free to assume I'm a total idiot when it comes to SC2, i.e., pls spare no details.
Generally speaking, I'm just not sure how to protect my workers against a reaper and losing 3+ workers against a 12/12 Reaper FE just seems like a hopeless situation (I have been following this build in an effort to improve macro: 12 Rax / 15 Gas / 19 CC build). If I put marines around my main mineral line in response to the initial reaper (who will already have 2 or so kills by this point), my opponent usually has the reaper go after another SCV that's constructing something. And the reapers are so damn fast that it just feels hopeless =(
Here's an example of a game where I end up losing a handful of SCVs to a single reaper in the opening minutes: http://ggtracker.com/matches/5928368.
I elected not to put a bunker up because I didn't scout 2-rax - I have been facing better players lately (i.e., Gold - Diamond) and, based on a small sample size, it seems they tend to cheese more frequently than my Bronze/Silver brethren - hence the scouting) - in any case, I'm pretty sure one bunker can't cover a mineral line so I'd appreciate any tips on early-game micro.
P.S. I know I totally screw up my build in this particular game but that is something else for me to work on =) The focus of my question is reaper defense.
What you can do is also go 12 rax 12 gas reaper, and get two reapers. Scout with one, and keep one at home, if you mess up the defence you can bring back the scouting reaper.
Being in bronze league, your build order isn't particularly important and having two reapers will give you just a little bit of early game safety in order to get into the early mid-game stage.
Try something like:
-12 rax -12 gas -15 reaper/OC -reaper again -expand/reactor
Don't expect something like that to work forever though, because as your skill improves you will be particularly vulnerable to 1-1-1 builds. Making more than one reaper cuts a lot into your tech timing and also your marine count. But it will keep you alive in the meantime.
I'm not sure it's really reactionnary, because you have to choose to not make an armory which is a choice you make before any templar archive can be scouted in a normal 1 gate expand into colo build.... or am I wrong?
What you're looking for before you pull is for the protoss player to be teching to Collosus and taking a third base. If they do those two things, you can pull regardless of your situation with the armoury or not. The main thing to point out is that rarely does terran get full 2-2 upgrades.
The two main counters to pulls are templars, and simply cancelling or surrendering the third base.
Going collosus into fast templar is a strategy that has other weaknesses that can be exploited. It was popular for a bit on ladder a couple of months ago. What is more worrying is when Protoss cancels the third and camps their natural. When they do this they can get a high enough stalker and collosus count to go for a counter all-in which is much stronger and usually has 2-2 when the terran is 1-1 or 2-1.
In general though, protoss players have gotten quite good at avoiding fights with terran in open areas, and as such the SCV pull as a strategy is not seen as often in the pro scene anymore. Even if all the stars align, the onus is on the protoss player to take the correct engagement, not the terran. Terran has much less control in dictating where and how the battle will occur, because third bases are optional for protoss and the natural is obviously quite easily defendable.
On April 16 2015 06:04 NotTrulyEvil wrote: What variation of the 2-3 base scv pull is the best in TvP? Seems like there is a lot of versions, with 3rd, without, with ghosts etc. I'd appreciate vods
What is the best way to hold a 2 base baneling bust with cc first?
I am just doing a standard hellion-banshee build w/cc first
I opened
14 cc 16 barracks-Bunker in natural and wall off 17 gas Factory after 2 barracks starport w/2nd gas
By the time his bust hits I only have a few marines + maybe 2 hellions and he just busts straight through my wall, even if I put down bunkers at the last minute and micro my marines well.
Is it even worth making a bunker in my natural if I'm just going to lose it + the marines inside anyway?
I have a couple questions about other matchups awell:
TvT
If I open Bio-tank in TvT and I spot a turtle mech player (Mass turrets to prevent drops, etc)
What is the best transition to make? Should I try to make the same switch to mech and just be behind, or is it worth it to try to tech to raven/viking before my opponent? I lose a lot of TvT's by getting caught in tech transitions
CC first is more vulnerable to that kind of attack, while giving marginal economic benefits. I'd only CC on maps with in-base naturals.
If you insist on doing it, you need to be scouting quite a bit. This is difficult to do without a reaper, but there are some tells. Gas in the natural, no third, no third queen by 5:45, or 6-8+ zerglings being made. You probably won't get into the main with an SCV to scout how much gas has been mined. If by 6:00-6:30 your opponent doesn't have a third base you are forced to spend a scan to figure out his situation with gas. CC first is not the best build for gathering scouting information and as such has a lot of holes in terms of what defences you can know to make.
If you determine a baneling bust coming off of two bases, don't even bother trying to hold the natural with a CC first. 2-3 bunkers at your ramp should be fine, and once your banshee gets out you can re-take map control.
---
Against a super turtle mech player the best thing to do is to have a tonne of low gas bio units, with minimal medivacs, and do an extremely fast tech to 3-3 air. Only stay one base ahead of the mech player. Mkae sure you have more gas income than he does and you should win.
You have to scan how much production they have, if they are at 7-8 factories on 3 bases, they likely won't be going super heavy on the air and you have to expect a 200/200 timing attack.
If they are getting tanks and ravens at the same time, you can make air units faster than them.
On April 18 2015 04:57 Thaniri wrote: CC first is more vulnerable to that kind of attack, while giving marginal economic benefits. I'd only CC on maps with in-base naturals.
If you insist on doing it, you need to be scouting quite a bit. This is difficult to do without a reaper, but there are some tells. Gas in the natural, no third, no third queen by 5:45, or 6-8+ zerglings being made. You probably won't get into the main with an SCV to scout how much gas has been mined. If by 6:00-6:30 your opponent doesn't have a third base you are forced to spend a scan to figure out his situation with gas. CC first is not the best build for gathering scouting information and as such has a lot of holes in terms of what defences you can know to make.
If you determine a baneling bust coming off of two bases, don't even bother trying to hold the natural with a CC first. 2-3 bunkers at your ramp should be fine, and once your banshee gets out you can re-take map control.
---
Against a super turtle mech player the best thing to do is to have a tonne of low gas bio units, with minimal medivacs, and do an extremely fast tech to 3-3 air. Only stay one base ahead of the mech player. Mkae sure you have more gas income than he does and you should win.
You have to scan how much production they have, if they are at 7-8 factories on 3 bases, they likely won't be going super heavy on the air and you have to expect a 200/200 timing attack.
If they are getting tanks and ravens at the same time, you can make air units faster than them.
Thanks for the help--Is it worth it producing a few tanks to have some defense?
I've had it happen to me where I try to transition to air but get caught off guard when my opponent decides to move out with their mech army and I only have a few tanks and marines. I find it frustrating to play against because I have no way of harassing with drops (due to turret rings) and I can't be sure whether or not its worth it to transition directly into air or move into a partial siege-tank/raven/viking army.
Do you know of an example game that I could look at?
Against zerg all-ins, I only make tanks vs roaches. Hellions and banshees are fine at dealing with zerglings and banelings.
Losing to the pushout is exactly why you need to keep an eye on his composition. Massing ground units, while only having one or two starports means that they will EVENTUALLY come to attack you. Against compositions like that I will get 5 barracks, 3 factories, and make very few medivacs. The 3 factories allow you to have a tank count large enough to slow down their push in order to send 2-3 waves of your army at them.
Unfortunately I dont save my own replays so I can't show you what I do >>. TvT these days don't tend to look like what you're describing in the korean scene so I can't think off the top of my head any recent games like that.
On April 18 2015 05:32 Thaniri wrote: Against zerg all-ins, I only make tanks vs roaches. Hellions and banshees are fine at dealing with zerglings and banelings.
Losing to the pushout is exactly why you need to keep an eye on his composition. Massing ground units, while only having one or two starports means that they will EVENTUALLY come to attack you. Against compositions like that I will get 5 barracks, 3 factories, and make very few medivacs. The 3 factories allow you to have a tank count large enough to slow down their push in order to send 2-3 waves of your army at them.
Unfortunately I dont save my own replays so I can't show you what I do >>. TvT these days don't tend to look like what you're describing in the korean scene so I can't think off the top of my head any recent games like that.
Thanks again. What you're alluding to is that its likely better to just to make my own tank comp and try to trade effectively before I transition into air?
On April 17 2015 14:49 Thaniri wrote: What you can do is also go 12 rax 12 gas reaper, and get two reapers. Scout with one, and keep one at home, if you mess up the defence you can bring back the scouting reaper.
Being in bronze league, your build order isn't particularly important and having two reapers will give you just a little bit of early game safety in order to get into the early mid-game stage.
Try something like:
-12 rax -12 gas -15 reaper/OC -reaper again -expand/reactor
Don't expect something like that to work forever though, because as your skill improves you will be particularly vulnerable to 1-1-1 builds. Making more than one reaper cuts a lot into your tech timing and also your marine count. But it will keep you alive in the meantime.
In order to keep safe from reaper harass, could I simplify by doing the 12/12 Reaper FE build (as you suggest) but with the following plan for scouting instead: (i) sending an SCV scout as soon as I start my barracks (ii) keeping the first (and the second) reaper at home for defense (iii) scanning at the 6-7 minute mark to get the info that would've come from scouting with the reaper
Or would I miss out on key scouting info/times? Just trying to strike the right balance between optimal and APM-friendly =P
On April 18 2015 05:32 Thaniri wrote: Against zerg all-ins, I only make tanks vs roaches. Hellions and banshees are fine at dealing with zerglings and banelings.
Losing to the pushout is exactly why you need to keep an eye on his composition. Massing ground units, while only having one or two starports means that they will EVENTUALLY come to attack you. Against compositions like that I will get 5 barracks, 3 factories, and make very few medivacs. The 3 factories allow you to have a tank count large enough to slow down their push in order to send 2-3 waves of your army at them.
Unfortunately I dont save my own replays so I can't show you what I do >>. TvT these days don't tend to look like what you're describing in the korean scene so I can't think off the top of my head any recent games like that.
Thanks again. What you're alluding to is that its likely better to just to make my own tank comp and try to trade effectively before I transition into air?
You likely won't trade effectively, he'll have more tanks and hellbat drops onto you are going to cause a lot of trouble.
All you want to do is to make sure that you force him to turn around with his army. This can be done by either doing enough damage to his army to convince him to turn around, or to run 40 supply of bio at one of his bases.
The quicker you catch him out on the map, the better. Having marines spotting is super important.
On April 17 2015 14:49 Thaniri wrote: What you can do is also go 12 rax 12 gas reaper, and get two reapers. Scout with one, and keep one at home, if you mess up the defence you can bring back the scouting reaper.
Being in bronze league, your build order isn't particularly important and having two reapers will give you just a little bit of early game safety in order to get into the early mid-game stage.
Try something like:
-12 rax -12 gas -15 reaper/OC -reaper again -expand/reactor
Don't expect something like that to work forever though, because as your skill improves you will be particularly vulnerable to 1-1-1 builds. Making more than one reaper cuts a lot into your tech timing and also your marine count. But it will keep you alive in the meantime.
In order to keep safe from reaper harass, could I simplify by doing the 12/12 Reaper FE build (as you suggest) but with the following plan for scouting instead: (i) sending an SCV scout as soon as I start my barracks (ii) keeping the first (and the second) reaper at home for defense (iii) scanning at the 6-7 minute mark to get the info that would've come from scouting with the reaper
Or would I miss out on key scouting info/times? Just trying to strike the right balance between optimal and APM-friendly =P
That works out fine. Remember the first marine comes out at 3:08, so your SCV can stay in his base until that time. If there is a marine, great, go home. If it's gas first, you have a free scout, and if there is no marine you can hang around until 3:30 when the reaper will spawn.
Obviously if its a gas first or marine opening you don't have to keep your reapers at home anymore.
How can I deal with the first scouting overlord thats sits on the highground near the choke of the natural on almost every map? These rock towers or else things are made for these overlords and i cant kill them until i have starport tech which is too late. There are several timing pushes that leave my base too early to wait for a viking, moreover the zerg can see when my wall is open or what it consists of.
i have no idea how to best react, pull scvs is bad, but you have to do sth. Focus probe or pylon wont help, pull 8 scvs to cancel the warpgate, i think is neither an option, so what to do?
would also be cool if i find someone who would practice 5-10 games with me, if needed more, so i can defend it after that!
pls watch replay, i got so many replys which didn't help at all cause ppl didnt watch the source of my problem described, thx for the help http://drop.sc/396459
EDIT: forgot replay: http://sc2rep.ru/down.php?id=16128 Hey, so I played this TvP the other night and all in all did a pretty poor job of, well, everything... but I read through the thread's OP and found the bit about "carefully trading away marines and marauders for ghosts" if you max out and have a low ghost/viking count with a superior economy versus Protoss.
I feel like at the moment I hit about 150 supply I could have a-moved and won the game, but that Protoss army with colossi and my lack of vikings makes me uncertain of that. Is this what I should have done at this moment?
At 14 minutes in I'm maxed, so I guess at this point I should be doing "suicide drops" with my units to free up supply and maybe do some more damage to the Protoss player's economy until I have a strong enough Ghost/Viking count to take his army on?
I felt like I secured a huge lead for myself with a faster third and early economic damage, and then pissed it all off into the wind by letting the game go on too long and then losing my entire army in a bad position. I could've done a better micro/macro job but I want to fix the glaring decision making errors first, been out of the game for about a year before this latest stint.
On April 18 2015 23:35 graNite wrote: How can I deal with the first scouting overlord thats sits on the highground near the choke of the natural on almost every map? These rock towers or else things are made for these overlords and i cant kill them until i have starport tech which is too late. There are several timing pushes that leave my base too early to wait for a viking, moreover the zerg can see when my wall is open or what it consists of.
overlord scouting is an essential part of zerg strategy which is why you normally cannot just "deal with it." if you want to kill it that badly commit to lifting your barracks, you don't just get to deny scouting for nothing
On April 18 2015 23:35 graNite wrote: How can I deal with the first scouting overlord thats sits on the highground near the choke of the natural on almost every map? These rock towers or else things are made for these overlords and i cant kill them until i have starport tech which is too late. There are several timing pushes that leave my base too early to wait for a viking, moreover the zerg can see when my wall is open or what it consists of.
On some maps openings 12 rax 13 gas marine reaper will let you deny the overlord from getting into the sweet spot, but other than that there isn't a good way to prevent it before starport tech unfortunately.
Guys I need some serious help, I thought I was improving a lot. I was playing with macrobuilds like polt 3CC +2/+2 and 14 CC based builds. But I recently played vs a master friend and he manhandled me so much.
I just don't know how he outplayed me so much. I won't even know how to start trainning to beat him. Also he isTHe one Ill play on the National Finals of my country's tourney. I though I just needed better micro but just watch my games and you willl see when the battle comes he just haves more banelings than I have marines!!!
On April 19 2015 06:46 CapnAmerica wrote: EDIT: forgot replay: http://sc2rep.ru/down.php?id=16128 Hey, so I played this TvP the other night and all in all did a pretty poor job of, well, everything... but I read through the thread's OP and found the bit about "carefully trading away marines and marauders for ghosts" if you max out and have a low ghost/viking count with a superior economy versus Protoss.
I feel like at the moment I hit about 150 supply I could have a-moved and won the game, but that Protoss army with colossi and my lack of vikings makes me uncertain of that. Is this what I should have done at this moment?
At 14 minutes in I'm maxed, so I guess at this point I should be doing "suicide drops" with my units to free up supply and maybe do some more damage to the Protoss player's economy until I have a strong enough Ghost/Viking count to take his army on?
I felt like I secured a huge lead for myself with a faster third and early economic damage, and then pissed it all off into the wind by letting the game go on too long and then losing my entire army in a bad position. I could've done a better micro/macro job but I want to fix the glaring decision making errors first, been out of the game for about a year before this latest stint.
I watched the game. I'm a high GM protoss player. Your main problems are gas mining/too much army movement/bad composition.
There are some minor problems like you getting turrets when you scouted robo + 3 gates and only getting 1 mine with your first push instead of 2 but these are much smaller then the problems I will address.
Gas mining: As soon as your third is up get the gas, its really important if you want to afford double upgrades/vikings/ghosts eventually and even marauders cost gas. This is why your army ends up being mostly marines and you can't afford vikings. Despite him being on 2 base you dont really get an advantage because of it. Why? Because you dont mine the gas that a third base gives you and on top of that once you do get the gas you have 5 scvs not mining on various geysers. This is HUGE. Also, the added minerals of the third base aren't really used because you don't trade with the protoss (not that I think you should do this) but if you are playing a very bio heavy style you need to be doing 2-3 prong aggression. I would recommend you just focus on teching and building your composition better for now at your level.
Too much army movement: this ties in to the first point quite a lot more than you would expect. It's also very counter-intuitive because moving your army is really good right? Technically it's good to always be active with your units but in your case you are moving out at times when you dont need to. You also lack vision that can allow you to be more comfortable leaving your army at home. Here are some things I would do differently in that game: leave one marine at each of the protoss' thirds, one marine at the watchtower and keep a group of medivacs stationed outside the protoss base (but not using them until the protoss moves out).
Army composition: Since protoss is on 2 base AND staying at home there is no reason to be aggressive. Take points from above in 'gas mining' and build a strong composition. This includes a lot of vikings/marauders and a few ghosts. In this particular game if you teched properly most masters terrans would advise you to do a big timing when you max with a few ghosts. Work out how many vikings you should have for certain collossus counts.
One extra point: NEVER move into the toss third like you did. EVER. This goes for any race. It is extremely risky to move in like you did. A much better way to deal with this base would be to send a small group of units behind the probe line. This also has the added effect of possibly bringing the protoss army out of position and enabling you do to a drop in the main. Or, you could have done the reverse and dropped first, bringing the protoss army out of position and then killing the nexus.
EPT
