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On April 01 2015 12:12 Kingqway wrote:
Hey guys, I've decided to start playing after a long hiatus. I used to be master league, but everyone got really damn good while I was away and now im in the diamond land.
I'm particularly losing a big chunk of my TvZ's. I open up with proper build order timings, but I end up losing mid-late game. What are some go to builds that you guys are doing? I'm opening up 1 rax reaper into hellions, and then I'll poke and kill some drones if he decides to play greedy. Despite it all, if the game goes into late game I always lose.
My macro is probably bad, but I don't know how to tone down zerg and punish them hard for droning too hard. When do you guys start building widow mines, and what exactly am I supposed to do when I push out? I'll always have a back and forth game, but sometimes I'll just lose a big chunk of my marines to banelings, or he'll just continue to outmacro me. If he ends up getting a lot of mutas, I'm not sure how to pressure drop harass. A lot of questions, I know.
If you guys could just point out some good timings and what not, I'd be grateful. Also an idea of when my upgrades should be done.
EDIT: I prefer a bio-based build
So ... (First of all, I am Mid/High Diamond terran, so I might be wrong in some points! I do not play 3 CC Reaper Hellion either, I play gasless 3 CC Bomber style!)
The ''best'' (/standard) opener is now 1/2 reaper into 8/6 hellion. After your first hellions are out, you go deny creep spread and pressure the zerg. Hellions force Zergs to build lings instead of drones. If he is droning up then you can punish him pretty hard. Lets assume the zerg builds lings. You still pressure the front and deny creep. Most important of all, do NOT lose those hellions, or you will have trouble establishing your 3rd. At around 10:30, you go deny creep spread even more with medevacs, stim and hellions, but this shouldnt do any eco damage, so dont lose these units either. Your parade push of death with MMMM will start at around 11:00, since it is the timing where your production kicks in. In almost all TvZs, it is all about the 4th base of the zerg. If the zerg gets 80 drones and a 4th, and you dont kill it soon enough, you are basically dead unless you split pretty well or get a money shot with the widowmine. The terran wins the game if the 4th is killed unless he expanded elsewhere. This parade push play style can be very unforgiving since you need great multitasking and really good splits when he gets good connections.
Drops: Dropping after mutas is completely impossible UNLESS the mutas are extremely out of position (like attacking your base). But Dropping before mutas can work pretty nice, but the medevacs from doing 3 CC Reaper Hellion are pretty late, so do not even bother dropping, you need those marines anyway at the front, not in his base.
Splitting can be practiced by just doing the marine split challenge or Knalle Micro Map, just do it like every day for 30 mins, it should improve your splitting.
If you play a lot, then you will save more and more marines and not lose them to 4 banes. Just look at the map more and prespread everytime when an engagement is going to happen.
Upgrades: I might be wrong on this one, but 2/2 should finish at around 14:00-14:30. After 2/2, you have time to do better trades because the zerg's upgrades are later than yours.
I hope that this helped you out! GLHF
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Thanks for the info SBGamer. So i pretty much just contest his 3rd/4th and no real main-base pushes? That seems to be where I lose most my games. I will lose map control once he starts massing ling baneling and then I can't tell where he decides to grab his 4th. Or they will all-in me on a 2-base or 3-base.
I'll see what kind of timings I can pull off by 11 minutes. Until then, I still keep losing to mass ling baneling. Or just a roach all-in if i go 3cc.
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Just to add to SBGamer's, the first pair of Hellions should check the 3rd base, as that's usually the time for it (6:00~6:30). It helps to deduce some builds away, like whether Zerg is going to 2 base all in or not.
In TvZ, you almost never do main base push, if you do 'push the main base', you would have already won the game or base trade. The mid game battle is usually the Terran attacking Zerg's 4th.
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an important thing to understand about zerg is that to fight bio in the midgame zerg either needs 4 base/8 gas for constant baneling + mutalisk production or a massive 6 gas ling/bane ground army which means no spire which means he will be open to drops. a 6 gas zerg has to either kill you or transition because of the 3/3 bio timer and mules
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On April 02 2015 22:16 SBGamer wrote:
Drops: Dropping after mutas is completely impossible UNLESS the mutas are extremely out of position (like attacking your base). But Dropping before mutas can work pretty nice, but the medevacs from doing 3 CC Reaper Hellion are pretty late, so do not even bother dropping, you need those marines anyway at the front, not in his base.
I don't agree with this at all. Drops are great for killing small amounts of workers and opening windows to clear creep. What I see a lot of pro players do is sneak their drops around a little bit at a time. Every time they know where the mutas are, they send a medivac a little ways around the edge of the map, and when they lose track of the mutas, they unload the marines and wait until they know it's clear again.
Also, drops from 3OC hellion are by no means bad. 99% of the time you can drop with your first 2 medivacs (or the next 2) if you want to. Medivacs from a sharp, clean build come out around 10:30-10:45, and mutas arrive around 90 seconds to 2 minutes later. If you have enough marines to fight 10-15 mutas, and are on a map with a lot of cliffs you can evacuate to (that are much closer by air then by ground) then you are fine dropping with your first 4 medivacs, or more often, dropping with 2 and clearing creep with 2.
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Okay, this was a lot of helpful information. I'll be using it in my games and will give an update on the progress. Thank you everyone
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Someone please give me a tvp timing build (preferably macro oriented) in the current meta. It has to be bio as well. I'm sick of trying to beat the protoss death ball after their early shenanigans. I don't usually have problems defending their shenanigans, it's the death ball that comes after.
Thanks
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On April 04 2015 11:55 NexT_SC2 wrote:
Someone please give me a tvp timing build (preferably macro oriented) in the current meta. It has to be bio as well. I'm sick of trying to beat the protoss death ball after their early shenanigans. I don't usually have problems defending their shenanigans, it's the death ball that comes after.
Thanks
http://imbabuilds.com/hots-terran/hots-tvp/tvp-hearts-stim-timing/
Here you go  It is a very early Combatshield-Stim push with a lot of marauders and marines. This delays your factory, meds and upgrades, but that should not be a problem, since the push is hard to hold.
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On April 04 2015 11:55 NexT_SC2 wrote:
Someone please give me a tvp timing build (preferably macro oriented) in the current meta. It has to be bio as well. I'm sick of trying to beat the protoss death ball after their early shenanigans. I don't usually have problems defending their shenanigans, it's the death ball that comes after.
Thanks
Personally I'm having a blast with the Reaper FE into factory/starport and then fast widow mine drops. It is just a very rewarding style that takes it to the Protoss early and keeps up the drop aggression basically all game. Probably the most "meta" build out there at the moment.
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Personally I'm having a blast with the Reaper FE into factory/starport and then fast widow mine drops.
Wow I remember doing a widow mine drop build back when HotS first came out and Yoda won IEM with widow mines.
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On April 04 2015 21:34 NexT_SC2 wrote:Show nested quote +Personally I'm having a blast with the Reaper FE into factory/starport and then fast widow mine drops. Wow I remember doing a widow mine drop build back when HotS first came out and Yoda won IEM with widow mines.
Go check out Maru vs Zest from pro league last week in the ace match of KT vs Jin Air..
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How do I play against Hydra Roach? I lose wether I play Bio or Mech. And I always lose very hard to it. Even if I have ecconomic advantage.
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On April 06 2015 17:47 00Zarathustra wrote:
How do I play against Hydra Roach? I lose wether I play Bio or Mech. And I always lose very hard to it. Even if I have ecconomic advantage.
Full Bio wins against Roach Hydra on even upgrades (with high medevac count)
That means, it depends on the opening you do. If you go Bomber's gasless 3 CC you have 2/2 upgrades and maxout ready at 13:30. This dominates roach hydra players completely. But almost no one does this build, so I assume you are playing standard 3 CC Reaper Hellion. The upgrades from 3CCRH are later than the upgrades from the zerg (except 3/3). This playstyle has 2 major timings: 1-1 Roach and 2-2 Roach Hydra, both are really strong timings, and when you play with such delayed upgrades, then you should build tanks. 1 Tank against 1-1 Roach is enough, against 2-2 you want to have around 5 tanks and a good amount of medevacs and maraudermarine. Then you will hold it easy. After this, the zerg is usually dead, since u have even upgrades, and full bio crushes that. You have now 2 styles you can play after you held the attack. Full Bio or Bio Tank. Probably Bio tank, since you already have it as a production cycle. A good decision would be attacking right after the 2-2 rh attack, before he gets a lot of vipers.
Dropping or doing anything aggressive (except before 10min reaper hellion pressure) is not recommended, against Roach Hydra you need to play defensive.
Roach Hydra gets countered pretty easy, which is why it is not used much anymore.
Also, a side note: Roach Hydra 2-2 completely destroys 1-1 Full Bio, so you are dead with a low tank count, even with eco advantage
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I just watch Polt played the WCS and I'm using his old TvZ style (Polt's FE 1/1/1 Opening into 3 Command Centers)
Do you know why he don't make early marauders any more and favor more hellbat timing or banshee? Is his old build still viable ?
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On April 07 2015 07:06 FunkyPak wrote:I just watch Polt played the WCS and I'm using his old TvZ style ( Polt's FE 1/1/1 Opening into 3 Command Centers) Do you know why he don't make early marauders any more and favor more hellbat timing or banshee? Is his old build still viable ?
This strategy guide was writen when you had to research an upgrade to transform helions into hellbats. This has been patched around april-june 2014 or something. Now you jut need an armory to transform hellions into hellbat therefore the hellbat push builds are much potent than back in 2013. That's why you see them more.
The variety of this pushes is wide though : you can go more or less heavy on marines, add medivacs or banshees, or marauders. You can go 1 rax 2 facto, 1 rax 1 facto 1 spatio or, like Polt did twice in the WCS finals, 3 rax one fact and hit with stim shield + hellbats.
If you really want to go hellbat marauders, QXC had a build like this, he used it against Scarlett on Overgrowth IEM san jose qualifiers : discussion of the build and replay on reddit
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How do I stop 8/8/8 if I started gas first?
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Just try to stay alive until you get hellions out. You will have a ridiculous scv lead so it's acceptable to lose some.
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On April 10 2015 12:39 00Zarathustra wrote:I got to hellions but there where to many reapers: Here is the rep: http://drop.sc/395915
Check OP please, you have a link to TheDwf's excellent post
About your replay, things I didn't like :
- your scout is late, why even bother scouting at this timing? scouting with the 13th drone would have given you the warning you needed.
- why is your barrack so far away from your CC? stay packed, if you're spread out, it's much easier to attack you.
- waiting at the cliff with 1 marine and 3 scv is counter productive, it would be the bigest luck ever if you could get a surround that way. Have all your scv in your mineral line, and rally marines there too, only move when reapers are attacking, don't chase them when the run away, don't loose mining time and wait until you have enough marines and hellions to counter attack
- your bunker is too late and not in a convenient spot
- keeping your marines alive and having constant production is the key as explained by TheDwf (really check his post)
last (cherry on the cake), try to not abandon your initial build : if you manage to defend this and build a starport at the same time, a banshee in his mineral line will win you the game.
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EPT
