EPTThe HotS Terran Help Me Thread - Page 346
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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chambertin
United States1704 Posts
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On March 23 2015 11:11 chambertin wrote: does proxy mara work against toss at all well? does msc shut it down completely? Basically. Also, add to that the fact that Marauders can't shoot up and therefore can't deny any MSC movements by zoning means that you have a clock. Plus, unless you are Flash, Innovation, or Taeja, relying on your opponent to not scout and underprepare for your build is suicidal. Imagine Protoss goes Oracle->Blink. Proxy Marauder rolls over and dies without a fuss. | ||
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chambertin
United States1704 Posts
On March 23 2015 11:34 Jazzman88 wrote: Basically. Also, add to that the fact that Marauders can't shoot up and therefore can't deny any MSC movements by zoning means that you have a clock. Plus, unless you are Flash, Innovation, or Taeja, relying on your opponent to not scout and underprepare for your build is suicidal. Imagine Protoss goes Oracle->Blink. Proxy Marauder rolls over and dies without a fuss. i feel bad even asking..... pretty silly i guess. thanks for the response anyway. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
Oracles clear mineral lines in seconds, Colossi clear bio in seconds, storms are worse than Colossi and OH MY GOD I HATE PROTOSS. Zealots are so good when it comes to drops because they beat bio when un-micro'd and they beat workers and oh my god Protoss. Seriously I need tips on how to deal with Protoss in TvP. Specifically I'm starting to realize that a Protoss deathball simply can't be engaged. Stalkers and Colossi are too cost-efficient against bio unless there's like one Colossi and you somehow outmass Protoss. I need advice. A go-to strategy, a safe and staple TvP build/strategy that is safe against Oracles and where I can have a fighting chance at actually taking games against the insanely cost-efficient protoss units. This feels like ZvP all over again except this time I can't drone hard to out-mass the Protoss. This match up, I swear. http://drop.sc/395007 I just want tips. ); | ||
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
On March 23 2015 18:31 Incognoto wrote: How do you even deal with Protoss? I swear to god I hate everything about TvP. Oracles clear mineral lines in seconds, Colossi clear bio in seconds, storms are worse than Colossi and OH MY GOD I HATE PROTOSS. Zealots are so good when it comes to drops because they beat bio when un-micro'd and they beat workers and oh my god Protoss. Seriously I need tips on how to deal with Protoss in TvP. Specifically I'm starting to realize that a Protoss deathball simply can't be engaged. Stalkers and Colossi are too cost-efficient against bio unless there's like one Colossi and you somehow outmass Protoss. I need advice. A go-to strategy, a safe and staple TvP build/strategy that is safe against Oracles and where I can have a fighting chance at actually taking games against the insanely cost-efficient protoss units. This feels like ZvP all over again except this time I can't drone hard to out-mass the Protoss. This match up, I swear. http://drop.sc/395007 I just want tips. ); Is it me or are you asking teh same question every 2 weeks? lol I feel your pain  Can't watch replays right now, all I can say is switching from Polt's 3 rax build to mine drops builds was teh best idea for me, it's really a cool build on nowadays meta, and there are plenty of replays to learn from : - Proxy version : Maru vs Patience game 1 IEM Katovice, INnoVation vs sOs in SPL 2015 round 1 on overgrowth and I think Maru vs Zest on King sejong in SPL 2015 round 1??? - standard version : INno vs terminator GSL 2015 season 1 ro 16 game one, Dream vs super in NSSL ro8 game 2 and 3, plus I think in the 2014 hot6x cup Bbyong and skyhigh in their group stage matches against protoss (vs parting zest and classic) Here is a very cool guide explaining some of the game above : link! Beside this, what I can tell you is stalkers + colo is easy to kill unless you got severly outmacroed or got behind at the start of the game. Just add your second starport quickly enough and hit him hard.Don't be afraid to get 15-20 vinkings if necessary. Your real enemies are 3/3 chargelots and storm because of the micro and the difficulty to engage them properly. But even then the idea of the match up remains the same, hit his economy, hit it constantly, trade armies each time you think it's cost efficient, slowly build an advantage that will allow you to crush him late game. Here's your new mantra : Protoss is not a death ball, Protoss is a punching ball. Good luck | ||
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Wein
Brazil452 Posts
They just put a ton of cannons and defend defend defend. I cant do damage, i cant engage head to head, i cant drop... | ||
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captkroger
United States5 Posts
Not sure if this is the right spot for this, but will anyone please tell me what I'm doing wrong in this TvP game? I got to the late game and then never could finish off my opponent. I got enamored with nukes, but i dont know if that was the main reason I let it slip away, or if it was just walking through too many storms. Any help would be appreciated. This was a very frustrating one. Thanks. http://drop.sc/394996 | ||
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2d_Sparrow
New Zealand34 Posts
On March 23 2015 18:31 Incognoto wrote: How do you even deal with Protoss? I swear to god I hate everything about TvP. Oracles clear mineral lines in seconds, Colossi clear bio in seconds, storms are worse than Colossi and OH MY GOD I HATE PROTOSS. Zealots are so good when it comes to drops because they beat bio when un-micro'd and they beat workers and oh my god Protoss. Seriously I need tips on how to deal with Protoss in TvP. Specifically I'm starting to realize that a Protoss deathball simply can't be engaged. Stalkers and Colossi are too cost-efficient against bio unless there's like one Colossi and you somehow outmass Protoss. I need advice. A go-to strategy, a safe and staple TvP build/strategy that is safe against Oracles and where I can have a fighting chance at actually taking games against the insanely cost-efficient protoss units. This feels like ZvP all over again except this time I can't drone hard to out-mass the Protoss. This match up, I swear. http://drop.sc/395007 I just want tips. ); Just watched your replay, and I too have been having similar problems vs protoss and I have an answer which will give you a higher win rate as it is what I am currently doing also in TvP. One quick note before I get into everything else is that you scouted his double gas with your scv and you still went straight across the map with your repear, make sure to scout around your base first before returning to the protoss base, it's more important you know what the protoss is building off of his 2 gas before scouting the expansion timing. But yeah onto how to win... I wouldn't say Protoss has a current meta on ladder at the moment, literally every game you go into could be any different strategy, you almost never vs the same opener twice in a row as you do in most other non-mirror match ups. Sure early robo is "standard" but not many Protoss actually use this build just because it is soo easy to win games with more aggressive builds or to do game ending damage with pressure builds. Taking all this into account the best build you can do is a build that aims to end the game with a mid game timing. Just look up any of the TvP builds that hit with a strong force at around 13:00 and that's what your aiming for. Your goal is to not take any damage at all, to perfectly build scvs and production facilities, if you do all of this you will most likely win games if not you will trade evenly. Also to note is the advantages P has over T and T has over P. Protoss can build workers much faster meaning their economy will ramp faster in the early game. Protoss also has amazing defensive structures and units which means that early game pressure by Terran players is very risky as the Protoss player WILL have the clear advantage as long as they position their units correctly, which is why you sometimes see pro or semi pro Protoss players lose in the early game, generally it's not a lack of units or disadvantage it is more likely that they just make more mistakes due to nervousness which is much less common on ladder, thus making it harder for Terran to pressure. Protoss also has a production advantage, they can choose when they want to build their army and where. Whereas Terran must always be building units, meaning that if Terran is distracted and forget a building timing or forget to produce units, they are behind in the game. Terrans advantages are pretty much all in the mid game, terrans units (with medivacs and upgrades) are much stronger than a standard protoss gateway army, which is why Protoss tries to tech up so quickly every game. It is also why the death ball seems unbeatable vs bio, it's because it is unless you get a full 360 surround. Terran bio is only good in the mid game in order to win the late game you need ghost viking but I'll mention this briefly in a bit. Contrary to popular belief mules are not actually a game winner for terran, in fact in the early - mid game terrans economy is often times less than the other races as it takes Terran longer to build standard workers, in order for it to be higher you need to commit to late game and build lots of orbitals for more mules, but until then terran actually has an economic disadvantage to make up for their late game economy advantage. This is one of the reasons why Terran players are going for mine drops at the moment, because it means that they stunt the advantage Protoss has over their economy. However if you do these drops at the cost of your own economy, either through making macro mistakes or losing units because your over committing then you are still behind. Remember Protoss can defend much easier than terran can so in an early game scenario where both players are aggressive Protoss is more likely to come out on top. With all this information in mind it is no wonder why most Terran players are doing 13:00 bio pushes before protoss can fully set up their death ball, which is really the only viable choice Terran has vs Protoss at the moment. Sure you could just play defensive go straight to ghost viking and build a billion orbitals but Terrans defensive structures late game are shocking, the only good structure Terran has to defend is the planetary which takes a very long time to build and also costs gas, it also takes up a wide space so it is no ideal for positioning. This coupled with the fact that protoss can warp in 20 units anywhere on the map at any time means that you are at a hugeee defensive disadvantage coming into the late game, which is why most terran players opt to go for the early mid game pushes. Bunkers are not good for defending bases as they cost supply to defend, you NEED that supply for your army. Yes you can use them to stop pushes, but bunkering up every base and having lots of units just waiting to defend is not efficient. So after all of this again my advice is to find a push build order around 13:00 you like and practice it, practice taking as little damage as possible from protoss, practice never missing any scv production, practice getting your buildings down at the perfect time every game. Don't worry about dealing early game damage for now, that is something to do once you have mastered macro, that is how you will win, don't get distracted. Goodluck. | ||
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2d_Sparrow
New Zealand34 Posts
On March 22 2015 11:49 Nesnow wrote: So I need a few clarifications on how to play in some very specific situations : - My first concern is about the standard CC first into 3CC in TvZ: I never feel like I am getting an advantage with this build .Wheter the zerg has an easier time allining me or just has an easier time macroing because the pressure is just non existent. The helions just doesn't really accomplish anything beside scouting. So my question is : Do you play that build while embrassing the total greedy part (no scan, ebay before barracks etc..) or do you still try to play while investing ressources into information knowing that it just put you behind in the long run ? Also do you think that a build that gives damage potential is always beter in TvZ ? (hellbatt pushes, banshee, ...) . -Still in TvZ, How do you play vs someone who spends his gas in an extreme way in the midgamee, like a lot of mutas or a lot of baneling? In some case they even stay on something like 65-70 drones to do so. It's a situation in wich I feel that I have to be defensive because the zerg when maxed out will not have the best composition. But even if i say that, i know from experience that being defensive vs a zerg just never work out for me. So what is the best attitude for you ? -Last question, this time in TvT, let's say it's an even game, Bio vs Mech, I play bio. The general problem I have is this one : Some mech player just choose to be 99% safe, they play with a 13-15 minutes third, they just mass tanks and start very early on Ravens with rings of turrets in the entire main (aka Nodoomdrop). Obviously the answer is to abuse that by having a really abusive economy on your side but : Do you think you can still max with bio or do you have to begin the transition into air earlier ? It's situationnal in some ways but in general if i don't max, i can't really prevent them from taking an earlier 4th .. And if i do i am stuck and forced to give him units to free supply for air as well and it doesn't seems worth it. So what's your attitude vs those strategy ? I am GM on NA and High master on Eu and I know I am very far from being good at this game but I can handle technical answer with timings, Bo's if needed 1. No 3CC does not give you an auto eco win :p but it does give you some advantages. The biggest of those is that because you have an early economy and an earlier push it means that Zerg will have less defensive advantages in the form of creep spread. Meaning that if you slow push or rally push zerg will actually have a harder time defending than they would normally this doesn't mean you can just push across and win the game, the disadvantage zerg takes in defense is made up for in unit production. So it's really up to you how you want to play, depending on your play style. 2. Again it isn't an auto win for zerg to spend all of their gas early on units, it means that their later game growth is stunted so you have to keep this in mind when playing, if you focus on upgrades and making a heavier unit composition, e.g more marauders and mines if lots of banelings or more thors if lots of mutas then by the time your 3-3 is done you will have a clear advantage. Of course zerg can mitigate this advantage by spreading creep, so it's your job to try to safely keep the creep back, while not trading cost inefficiently (which is what the zerg wants you to do). It's tricky but you'll get there. Just think about your goals in the game, don't waste units, you have a clear timing advantage. One tip to stop yourself getting caught out while clearing creep is to always have a small group of units (3-4) out in front of your army to scout for the zerg army, as well as having units positioned all over the map. Zerg doesn't want to fight off creep, just as you don't want to fight on it, so keep the bulk of your army off creep and just send a few units to kill creep when you scan. 3. I used to play around with just going pure bio, ramping eco, then doing a very fast air switch. However I think the best way to play this out is to contain on 2 bases, focus on lots of tanks (3 factory) bunker up outside, create turret rings around their base, contain them as long as possible. They only way for them to trade is to seeker tanks, which you can stop by picking them up in medis as long as you spread the tanks out you won't take any damage. The Terran player won't have enough gas to keep making air units, and then once you have a strong contain and a booming economy start trading away bio and transitioning to air. BC are even fine in this situation as long as you're on 3-4 base eco as yomato will trade really well with their low air unit count. Also they will need lots of ground to break out so again BCs + you have turrets outside their base so again BCs. I think the tricky part to this is that you have to make sure to match your opponents army, which may mean taking a later third just so you can maintain the contain. gl though! | ||
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2d_Sparrow
New Zealand34 Posts
On March 22 2015 01:35 MockHamill wrote: When playing mech in TvZ at what time do you claim your 3rd? Given that you do not scout any bust or large roach attack. As soon as possible, your main goal is to keep your hellions alive and scouting at the front. You can move your command center over as early as 8:30 - 9:00 as long as your scouting. If your opponent looks to be putting on aggression just pick up and move back, as simple as that. Generally you want to be as greedy as you possibly can get away with. | ||
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2d_Sparrow
New Zealand34 Posts
On March 21 2015 12:59 NexT_SC2 wrote: I need help in tvt vs mech. I play pure bio the reason being that I want my macro and mechanics to improve so my fundamentals are sound. I don't want to get to plat doing tank timings every game. Unfortunately tank timings are what I lose to  They usually transition into mech or in one case ravens.Here are some replays: http://drop.sc/394933 http://drop.sc/394932 http://drop.sc/394931 I was pretty tired when I was playing these games so I my macro may not have been the best... Also, do you guys use the "L" key to lift your buildings or do you rebind it? Thanks If you're playing bio vs mech make sure to abusing your advantages, siege map control, deny bases, contain him on 2 base as long as possible. Don't engage into a sieged up army. You also shouldn't be making excuses for macro, as a bio player you NEED the most eco you can get, your advantage is in unit production and economy since you are more easily able to take more bases, it is something that the mech player is sacrificing to get a stronger army so you have to capitalize on it. Don't miss any scvs, if you do you are behind it is very important. I rebound mine to T and thors to A. | ||
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chambertin
United States1704 Posts
(full disclosure: I was going for a cheesy inbase 8rax Maru style... how would you hold playing standard anyway...) | ||
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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
On March 24 2015 13:47 chambertin wrote: um.... does anyone know what you're supposed to do if Toss drops pylon and gateway in your mineral line??? I pulled 4 scvs to the pylon but he just kept making more... (full disclosure: I was going for a cheesy inbase 8rax Maru style... how would you hold playing standard anyway...) Just pull 3 scvs to every pylon and don't bother with the gateway. If you are going reaper make sure to get that out because wasted money on pylons+gate and a reaper facing almost no defenses means you win. | ||
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SacredCoconut
Finland121 Posts
On March 22 2015 11:49 Nesnow wrote: So I need a few clarifications on how to play in some very specific situations : - My first concern is about the standard CC first into 3CC in TvZ: I never feel like I am getting an advantage with this build .Wheter the zerg has an easier time allining me or just has an easier time macroing because the pressure is just non existent. The helions just doesn't really accomplish anything beside scouting. So my question is : Do you play that build while embrassing the total greedy part (no scan, ebay before barracks etc..) or do you still try to play while investing ressources into information knowing that it just put you behind in the long run ? Also do you think that a build that gives damage potential is always beter in TvZ ? (hellbatt pushes, banshee, ...) . -Still in TvZ, How do you play vs someone who spends his gas in an extreme way in the midgamee, like a lot of mutas or a lot of baneling? In some case they even stay on something like 65-70 drones to do so. It's a situation in wich I feel that I have to be defensive because the zerg when maxed out will not have the best composition. But even if i say that, i know from experience that being defensive vs a zerg just never work out for me. So what is the best attitude for you ? Coming from some one who plays both zerg and terran. I'm most confident when i get to 2/2 on even game. 3cc pretty much skips to that. (i like reaper 3cc better though).. That point of the game takes lot of practice though, and its easier to just hellbat push and get game winning advantage. You don't have to be passive against that kinda zerg you just don't want to be too aggressive. Clear creep, trade small groups, have mines/units positioned in way that you can run awey, keep reinforcements home (so you have no units home against mutas/counter), take 4th base, and when 3/3 finishes start being more aggressive. | ||
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Infinite976
United States92 Posts
I'm curious the most effective cheeses/all-ins for the current meta. I'm not looking to enter late-game or even mid-game if avoidable. Can anyone please recommend the most effective early-game cheese/all-in for each matchup in your opinion? I've currently been doing: TvT-888 TvP-proxy WM TvZ-888 or marauder/hellbat all in Thanks in advance | ||
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SacredCoconut
Finland121 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany16103 Posts
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LoneYoShi
France1348 Posts
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mau5mat
Northern Ireland461 Posts
On March 25 2015 05:08 Infinite976 wrote: Hi guys, I'm curious the most effective cheeses/all-ins for the current meta. I'm not looking to enter late-game or even mid-game if avoidable. Can anyone please recommend the most effective early-game cheese/all-in for each matchup in your opinion? I've currently been doing: TvT-888 TvP-proxy WM TvZ-888 or marauder/hellbat all in Thanks in advance TvT - plethora of stuff you can do. TvZ - well executed 11/11 / 12/12 is the best I feel, 8/8/8 is good too. TvP - proxy mine, 999 reaper + proxy mine, 8/8 in-base proxy barracks. | ||
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Paljas
Germany6926 Posts
not that they are actually good, but they are hilarious. | ||
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