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What is the most defensive anti 1-1-1 build out there?
I am tired of dying/taking damage from various 1-1-1 into expand attacks. I typically encounter the following
1. Marine/widow mine drop
2. Cloak banshee into some follow up attack
3. Marine/hellion elevator attack.
4. Tank/Viking/Marine attack.
I typically go rax-factory-CC in main-starport. I also always place a turret in my mineral line in order to protect against banshee or mine drop.
Problem is I have not found any consistent way of not taking damage or dying early game. If I go Raven first I die against viking/tank/marine attack since he got the air advantage. If I go tank/marine/viking I take damage from well microed banshees and run out of scans. If I go reactor hellion/viking/marines I take damage from any elevator attack where he uses a tank.
So what is the best build in order to avoid taking damage early game from various 1-1-1 attacks? My micro is typically weaker than my opponents and my chances of winning increases the longer the game goes on.
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On March 08 2015 03:21 MockHamill wrote:
What is the most defensive anti 1-1-1 build out there?
I am tired of dying/taking damage from various 1-1-1 into expand attacks. I typically encounter the following
1. Marine/widow mine drop
2. Cloak banshee into some follow up attack
3. Marine/hellion elevator attack.
4. Tank/Viking/Marine attack.
I typically go rax-factory-CC in main-starport. I also always place a turret in my mineral line in order to protect against banshee or mine drop.
Problem is I have not found any consistent way of not taking damage or dying early game. If I go Raven first I die against viking/tank/marine attack since he got the air advantage. If I go tank/marine/viking I take damage from well microed banshees and run out of scans. If I go reactor hellion/viking/marines I take damage from any elevator attack where he uses a tank.
So what is the best build in order to avoid taking damage early game from various 1-1-1 attacks? My micro is typically weaker than my opponents and my chances of winning increases the longer the game goes on.
Best anti-1-1-1 defensive build is a defensive 1-1-1 build with gas-first into Reactor rax, Tech Lab fact, and Tech Lab port. Get Marines, Tanks, a single Raven, then a couple Vikings.in order to defend both ground pushes and doom drops. Expand and transition into the build of your choice.
Specifically versus each of your cases:
1. Marine/widow mine drop: this is generally not a very good TvT build, as anti-Banshee detection is common and mine splash doesn't kill SCVs. Split the SCVs, take out the Mines with Raven+Marines, and you're good.
2. Cloak banshee into pressure/timing: you have to zone the Banshee with your Raven/Marine squad until Vikings hit. Turrets can help, but don't sacrifice building Tanks/Vikings to get one up, as the follow up then kills you. Use single Marines to see if he's coming by ground or not, and be on guard for the doom drop.
3. Elevator attack: Tank in the production area not too far from the mineral lines is a good anchor point, keep producing Marines and make sure your reaction time is quick enough to reposition as they come in, and you should hold.
4. Tank/Marine/Viking attack: use the PDD on the Raven to protect your Vikings if necessary, use Tanks to hold everything else back. Again, using single Marines to check for what's coming by ground is very good here. Since you went gas-first, your Tank/Marine count should be very similar off of equal bases. Don't do something dumb and you can hold.
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On March 08 2015 05:01 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2015 03:21 MockHamill wrote:
What is the most defensive anti 1-1-1 build out there?
I am tired of dying/taking damage from various 1-1-1 into expand attacks. I typically encounter the following
1. Marine/widow mine drop
2. Cloak banshee into some follow up attack
3. Marine/hellion elevator attack.
4. Tank/Viking/Marine attack.
I typically go rax-factory-CC in main-starport. I also always place a turret in my mineral line in order to protect against banshee or mine drop.
Problem is I have not found any consistent way of not taking damage or dying early game. If I go Raven first I die against viking/tank/marine attack since he got the air advantage. If I go tank/marine/viking I take damage from well microed banshees and run out of scans. If I go reactor hellion/viking/marines I take damage from any elevator attack where he uses a tank.
So what is the best build in order to avoid taking damage early game from various 1-1-1 attacks? My micro is typically weaker than my opponents and my chances of winning increases the longer the game goes on. Best anti-1-1-1 defensive build is a defensive 1-1-1 build with gas-first into Reactor rax, Tech Lab fact, and Tech Lab port. Get Marines, Tanks, a single Raven, then a couple Vikings.in order to defend both ground pushes and doom drops. Expand and transition into the build of your choice. Specifically versus each of your cases: 1. Marine/widow mine drop: this is generally not a very good TvT build, as anti-Banshee detection is common and mine splash doesn't kill SCVs. Split the SCVs, take out the Mines with Raven+Marines, and you're good. 2. Cloak banshee into pressure/timing: you have to zone the Banshee with your Raven/Marine squad until Vikings hit. Turrets can help, but don't sacrifice building Tanks/Vikings to get one up, as the follow up then kills you. Use single Marines to see if he's coming by ground or not, and be on guard for the doom drop. 3. Elevator attack: Tank in the production area not too far from the mineral lines is a good anchor point, keep producing Marines and make sure your reaction time is quick enough to reposition as they come in, and you should hold. 4. Tank/Marine/Viking attack: use the PDD on the Raven to protect your Vikings if necessary, use Tanks to hold everything else back. Again, using single Marines to check for what's coming by ground is very good here. Since you went gas-first, your Tank/Marine count should be very similar off of equal bases. Don't do something dumb and you can hold.
Thanks for the help! Can you please give an exact build order for this (without supply depots since those are given). Please also include how many marines I should produce before getting the reactor on the rax.
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On March 07 2015 22:13 t0ssboy wrote:
How does one hold a proxy 2 rax reaper when going gas first?
Short answer, pull SCV's to keep your combat units until you hit a critical mass of marine / hellion. Long answer can be found in the OP in TheDwf's Post
It's actually easiest to hold off with gas first IMO.
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On March 08 2015 05:19 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2015 05:01 Jazzman88 wrote:On March 08 2015 03:21 MockHamill wrote:
What is the most defensive anti 1-1-1 build out there?
I am tired of dying/taking damage from various 1-1-1 into expand attacks. I typically encounter the following
1. Marine/widow mine drop
2. Cloak banshee into some follow up attack
3. Marine/hellion elevator attack.
4. Tank/Viking/Marine attack.
I typically go rax-factory-CC in main-starport. I also always place a turret in my mineral line in order to protect against banshee or mine drop.
Problem is I have not found any consistent way of not taking damage or dying early game. If I go Raven first I die against viking/tank/marine attack since he got the air advantage. If I go tank/marine/viking I take damage from well microed banshees and run out of scans. If I go reactor hellion/viking/marines I take damage from any elevator attack where he uses a tank.
So what is the best build in order to avoid taking damage early game from various 1-1-1 attacks? My micro is typically weaker than my opponents and my chances of winning increases the longer the game goes on. Best anti-1-1-1 defensive build is a defensive 1-1-1 build with gas-first into Reactor rax, Tech Lab fact, and Tech Lab port. Get Marines, Tanks, a single Raven, then a couple Vikings.in order to defend both ground pushes and doom drops. Expand and transition into the build of your choice. Specifically versus each of your cases: 1. Marine/widow mine drop: this is generally not a very good TvT build, as anti-Banshee detection is common and mine splash doesn't kill SCVs. Split the SCVs, take out the Mines with Raven+Marines, and you're good. 2. Cloak banshee into pressure/timing: you have to zone the Banshee with your Raven/Marine squad until Vikings hit. Turrets can help, but don't sacrifice building Tanks/Vikings to get one up, as the follow up then kills you. Use single Marines to see if he's coming by ground or not, and be on guard for the doom drop. 3. Elevator attack: Tank in the production area not too far from the mineral lines is a good anchor point, keep producing Marines and make sure your reaction time is quick enough to reposition as they come in, and you should hold. 4. Tank/Marine/Viking attack: use the PDD on the Raven to protect your Vikings if necessary, use Tanks to hold everything else back. Again, using single Marines to check for what's coming by ground is very good here. Since you went gas-first, your Tank/Marine count should be very similar off of equal bases. Don't do something dumb and you can hold. Thanks for the help! Can you please give an exact build order for this (without supply depots since those are given). Please also include how many marines I should produce before getting the reactor on the rax.
Playing defensive in TvT is quite hard and I don't think there is a best build to defend everything, its very important to scout and react, check gases and addons, save some scans, keep kap control and vision of important points.
A good thing to do is go gas first (12 gas 13 rax) and rush for a raven, you take 2nd gas after you start your fact and get a reactor while you get your starport, you can also take your gas a little earlier and get a reaper.
Taking from what Jazzman told you:
If he has 2 gases and a tl its a banshee, get raven, viking and marines.
If he laso has a reactor, a second tl or both its a marine/tank/viking (or banshee attack) get your raven and then switch fact/port for tank/viking production
If there is no 2nd gas its hellions (there can be a reactor but not always) delay your raven and get 1 tank and 1 viking (you can then get the raven or get a banshee yourself)
WM drops are uncommon, just do the changes for the hellion attack (tanks and vikings) pull your SCV to minimize damage (you can sacrife an SCV to detonate the mine) and the use a scan.
Always remember that defenders advantage exist in TvT, however be careful of getting contained (this is why having map vision is important)
As for reactor get it when you can afford it , in a general way prioritize raven>tanks>vikings>marines (can change depending on enemy build)
If theres something wrong with my response someone correct me, TvT is a complicated MU after all.
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On March 07 2015 22:13 t0ssboy wrote:
How does one hold a proxy 2 rax reaper when going gas first?
Hellions are definitely your friend. Pull scv's as well to either tank damage/attack the Reapers or to repair a hellion.
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On March 08 2015 05:19 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2015 05:01 Jazzman88 wrote:On March 08 2015 03:21 MockHamill wrote:
What is the most defensive anti 1-1-1 build out there?
I am tired of dying/taking damage from various 1-1-1 into expand attacks. I typically encounter the following
1. Marine/widow mine drop
2. Cloak banshee into some follow up attack
3. Marine/hellion elevator attack.
4. Tank/Viking/Marine attack.
I typically go rax-factory-CC in main-starport. I also always place a turret in my mineral line in order to protect against banshee or mine drop.
Problem is I have not found any consistent way of not taking damage or dying early game. If I go Raven first I die against viking/tank/marine attack since he got the air advantage. If I go tank/marine/viking I take damage from well microed banshees and run out of scans. If I go reactor hellion/viking/marines I take damage from any elevator attack where he uses a tank.
So what is the best build in order to avoid taking damage early game from various 1-1-1 attacks? My micro is typically weaker than my opponents and my chances of winning increases the longer the game goes on. Best anti-1-1-1 defensive build is a defensive 1-1-1 build with gas-first into Reactor rax, Tech Lab fact, and Tech Lab port. Get Marines, Tanks, a single Raven, then a couple Vikings.in order to defend both ground pushes and doom drops. Expand and transition into the build of your choice. Specifically versus each of your cases: 1. Marine/widow mine drop: this is generally not a very good TvT build, as anti-Banshee detection is common and mine splash doesn't kill SCVs. Split the SCVs, take out the Mines with Raven+Marines, and you're good. 2. Cloak banshee into pressure/timing: you have to zone the Banshee with your Raven/Marine squad until Vikings hit. Turrets can help, but don't sacrifice building Tanks/Vikings to get one up, as the follow up then kills you. Use single Marines to see if he's coming by ground or not, and be on guard for the doom drop. 3. Elevator attack: Tank in the production area not too far from the mineral lines is a good anchor point, keep producing Marines and make sure your reaction time is quick enough to reposition as they come in, and you should hold. 4. Tank/Marine/Viking attack: use the PDD on the Raven to protect your Vikings if necessary, use Tanks to hold everything else back. Again, using single Marines to check for what's coming by ground is very good here. Since you went gas-first, your Tank/Marine count should be very similar off of equal bases. Don't do something dumb and you can hold. Thanks for the help! Can you please give an exact build order for this (without supply depots since those are given). Please also include how many marines I should produce before getting the reactor on the rax.
Play with it. Do some tests in a custom map, and try different timings and see how much you end up with using different orders. Ideally, the structure is something like: gas-rax-fact-gas/reactor-starport-techlab-techlab -> produce whatever you need.
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If you play mech which 3rd base should you take on Catellena
a)The one on high ground near your main or
b) The one nearer the edge of the map
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I lost some TvTs lately because, after initial build order, I do not know how to set up my production properly. I typically go 15 gas 1-1-1 expand with marines/hellion/medivac. Often after my push (or defense, if opponent goes one base pressure) I am often lost how to proceed.
My question is: What is the infra structure I want to have in TvT when I go Bio/Tank when I am on 2 base and on 3 base, for both, against mech and against Bio/Tank?
Can you guys give me a guideline in which order I should set up my buildings (ebays, rax, facts, gas)? Of course i have to adjust to what opponent is doing, I just would like to know a "standard" way to go, assuming there is no immediate pressure incoming and me and my opponent came out equally out of early game.
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Northern Ireland461 Posts
On March 08 2015 21:38 hiho wrote:
I lost some TvTs lately because, after initial build order, I do not know how to set up my production properly. I typically go 15 gas 1-1-1 expand with marines/hellion/medivac. Often after my push (or defense, if opponent goes one base pressure) I am often lost how to proceed.
My question is: What is the infra structure I want to have in TvT when I go Bio/Tank when I am on 2 base and on 3 base, for both, against mech and against Bio/Tank?
Can you guys give me a guideline in which order I should set up my buildings (ebays, rax, facts, gas)? Of course i have to adjust to what opponent is doing, I just would like to know a "standard" way to go, assuming there is no immediate pressure incoming and me and my opponent came out equally out of early game.
https://terrancraft.wordpress.com/2013/06/24/understanding-convergent-points-part-1/
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On March 08 2015 21:38 hiho wrote:
I lost some TvTs lately because, after initial build order, I do not know how to set up my production properly. I typically go 15 gas 1-1-1 expand with marines/hellion/medivac. Often after my push (or defense, if opponent goes one base pressure) I am often lost how to proceed.
My question is: What is the infra structure I want to have in TvT when I go Bio/Tank when I am on 2 base and on 3 base, for both, against mech and against Bio/Tank?
Can you guys give me a guideline in which order I should set up my buildings (ebays, rax, facts, gas)? Of course i have to adjust to what opponent is doing, I just would like to know a "standard" way to go, assuming there is no immediate pressure incoming and me and my opponent came out equally out of early game.
hellion siege tank widow mine
medivac viking
marine count
cc stays in main or not
prioritizing units or scvs
ebay timing
additional barracks timing
upgrade timing
scouting vs missing a unit for defense
bunker front yes/no
there's alot more going on with this build then "marines/hellion/medivac"
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37023 Posts
Just played a TvT where my opponent used a strategy I have never seen or played against before.
1. I opened 1 rax dual CC
2. He went straight for ghost academy on 1 base.
3. Dropped me with 4 ghosts, sniped my hellions and my marines and began harassing me like crazy.
4. Rest of his money went into marauders and widow mines.
5. I lost before I even knew what happened.
Anyone ever deal with this before?
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Im pretty sure that is RuFFs build, he used something like that against ForGG. In that game ForGG just defended first ghost and pretty much just won.
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On March 09 2015 02:12 Seeker wrote:
Just played a TvT where my opponent used a strategy I have never seen or played against before.
1. I opened 1 rax dual CC
2. He went straight for ghost academy on 1 base.
3. Dropped me with 4 ghosts, sniped my hellions and my marines and began harassing me like crazy.
4. Rest of his money went into marauders and widow mines.
5. I lost before I even knew what happened.
Anyone ever deal with this before?
Sounds like the work of a mad genius to me.
But really, 1 base Ghost was a thing before the snipe nerf.
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I have seen one base hellion nuke rush which can be awkward to deal with I guess. As for the ghost dropping. Tank viking and marines should deal with it well. The viking can zone the medivac or just land and attack with the tank since ghosts arent effective vs either.
Followup tank push should closeout the game or at least five a lead.
Realising its coming is the hard part though
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On March 09 2015 02:12 Seeker wrote:
Just played a TvT where my opponent used a strategy I have never seen or played against before.
1. I opened 1 rax dual CC
2. He went straight for ghost academy on 1 base.
3. Dropped me with 4 ghosts, sniped my hellions and my marines and began harassing me like crazy.
4. Rest of his money went into marauders and widow mines.
5. I lost before I even knew what happened.
Anyone ever deal with this before?
Sounds like you just laddered vs Crank. Or MMA with Crank telling him what to do while drunk.
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On March 09 2015 02:12 Seeker wrote:
Just played a TvT where my opponent used a strategy I have never seen or played against before.
1. I opened 1 rax dual CC
2. He went straight for ghost academy on 1 base.
3. Dropped me with 4 ghosts, sniped my hellions and my marines and began harassing me like crazy.
4. Rest of his money went into marauders and widow mines.
5. I lost before I even knew what happened.
Anyone ever deal with this before?
Ruff does it, just need to get a bunker or two and get to tanks. But be careful because if you do that Ruff usually builds a bunch of stim marauders and nukes so you unsiege. It's very allin though
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37023 Posts
On March 09 2015 03:18 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 02:12 Seeker wrote:
Just played a TvT where my opponent used a strategy I have never seen or played against before.
1. I opened 1 rax dual CC
2. He went straight for ghost academy on 1 base.
3. Dropped me with 4 ghosts, sniped my hellions and my marines and began harassing me like crazy.
4. Rest of his money went into marauders and widow mines.
5. I lost before I even knew what happened.
Anyone ever deal with this before? Ruff does it, just need to get a bunker or two and get to tanks. But be careful because if you do that Ruff usually builds a bunch of stim marauders and nukes so you unsiege. It's very allin though
What unit composition am I supposed to try to get after my tanks hold off his pressure?
Also, when I watched the replay, he was expanding towards the end so it wasn't a complete all-in, so I'm guessing there's a follow-up that I need to be ready for regarding mid-late game, but not sure what I'm going up against.
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This ghost thing is so expensive and comes late, I am pretty sure if you play normally and reactor out marines/hellions and get a raven you should just have more stuff than him?
I need an opinion on the following:
If I go very fast 3 cc for example in TvZ, and I cant fly out the third yet, should I constantly produce 3 scvs and have the natural oversaturated with up to 35, then instantly saturate the third once it is landed, or should I cut scvs when I have 2 base saturation to add earlier production and resume scv production once the third is landed?
Because what sometimes happes is that I have enough scvs for 3 base and my production is finishing then my money is suddenly high, if I cut scvs to start production earlier and then resume scvs during the time they are building I have unit production up sooner which means I can fly out third sooner and defend it better.
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In a TvT I scout after my first depot and see gas taken and no rax in his main. How do I tell the difference between a proxy reaper and a proxy marauder? As far as I know, to defend a proxy marauder I need to put a bunker at my ramp, but for a proxy reaper I need a bunker near my mineral line. Is this right? Thanks
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EPT
