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On March 10 2015 06:27 Plaxis wrote:
In a TvT I scout after my first depot and see gas taken and no rax in his main. How do I tell the difference between a proxy reaper and a proxy marauder? As far as I know, to defend a proxy marauder I need to put a bunker at my ramp, but for a proxy reaper I need a bunker near my mineral line. Is this right? Thanks
Actually, you only need the bunker in the mineral line if you are going gasless expand versus proxy reaper. If you have a gas, you simply pull 3-4 SCVs to fight with the first couple of Marines and get a Factory ASAP for Hellions, then transition normally.
First step is to scout near your base as you leave. For example, if you're playing on Overgrowth, check behind the natural mineral lines before you head to the other side. You are only looking for a proxy first of all, then their Factory/gas timing, all of which you can tell with a slightly delayed scout, so check around your base for the proxy first, and you can eliminate proxy Marauder. Reason being that proxy Marauder gets demonstrably worse due to unit speed the further the rax is from you, whereas Reapers are fast enough to make even mid-map proxies not too bad.
You can also try to count SCVs and gas mined in his main. Proxy Reaper builds tend to feature double proxied rax as well as requiring more gas overall, so check the SCV count, gas mined, and Orbital timing. A substantially delayed Orbital off of something that looks for all other purposes like a normal gas build except no rax is a red flag for Reapers, particularly if there are less than 14 SCVs mining. A proxy Marauder build should have pretty much exactly the same SCV count as a non-proxy build, and no delayed OC. I believe with a 13/14-ish scout on a standard 2-player map should see more than 70 gas mined when you get there with a build going 12-gas or less, and about 50 mined for a slower gas play (i.e. not proxy).
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On March 10 2015 06:27 Plaxis wrote:
In a TvT I scout after my first depot and see gas taken and no rax in his main. How do I tell the difference between a proxy reaper and a proxy marauder? As far as I know, to defend a proxy marauder I need to put a bunker at my ramp, but for a proxy reaper I need a bunker near my mineral line. Is this right? Thanks
First off I would ask myself if I were you, why am I scouting so early? You are obviously scared of early aggression however scv scouting in tvt does not accomplish much in fact it actually puts you behind in the current meta let me explain why. (Side note, notice no terran pro player who is doing a gas first opening in tvt will scv scout.)
If you scout your opponent straight after your first depot you will arrive to see the gas timing of your opponent, if it is a standard gas first you have gained a small amount of information but it does not pay for the cost of your scv scout. The problem with scouting a gas first is that you still don't know what tech path your opponent is going and your scv has to leave before you will be able to find out, thus a wasted scout, sure you might feel safer but you shouldn't considering you just gave your opponent a lead in economy. However if you scout no barracks and you see a gas as you mentioned you know your opponent is doing a proxy. However this information becomes irrelevant if it is a reaper proxy as if it is a reaper proxy the first reaper will be appearing in approximately 20 seconds, besides a reaper proxy can be easily defended with no preparation (there are lots of guides for defending this build with no scouting). So really the only thing you are scouting for is proxy marauders, however proxy marauders don't actually hit until after your 2nd marine pops out if you are doing a standard early gas build, meaning that instead of wasting all of that mining time with your scouting scv you could have just sent out your first marine to scout around your base. A reaper from a proxy reaper build hits as soon as your marine pops out so don't worry about being out of position for that one.
Basicly you are trying to get information that is not yet relevant, you'll find it much easier to hold attacks if you just use that scv to mine instead of sending it to scout. If you do send it to scout your build order will be behind and you will be at a disadvantage to any opponent who is playing standard and does not send an scv scout just because in TvT it's near impossible to scout your opponents tech without a reaper or a scan at 5:30 - 6:00 which is one of the reasons why the gas first build is so popular in the current meta.
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Thank you Jazzman88 and 2d_Sparrow. I will try each of these and see how they go.
I usually scout because most of the tvt I lose is because I can't defend the initial push since I don't have exactly the right units to defend, so I want to know if it's gonna be a gas first or not by them to limit the amount of things I have to defend. Maybe if I clean up my build I can defend more, not sure. I usually go banshee first into expand or tank push.
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On March 12 2015 05:36 Plaxis wrote:
Thank you Jazzman88 and 2d_Sparrow. I will try each of these and see how they go.
I usually scout because most of the tvt I lose is because I can't defend the initial push since I don't have exactly the right units to defend, so I want to know if it's gonna be a gas first or not by them to limit the amount of things I have to defend. Maybe if I clean up my build I can defend more, not sure. I usually go banshee first into expand or tank push.
They can still go for an early push even if they don't go gas first, TvT is a very aggressive match up. Even more reason not to waste mining time for your scvs. Imo the time you want to scout is when you do your pressure, e.g banshees, widow-mine drop, hellion marine elevator etc.
All early game aggression is defend-able with the gas first build, just make sure to wall off your front and scout around your base with your first marine and you will be able to defend 100% of the time unless you make a critical error.
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How does one play against Avilo mech when going Bio(He just never leaves his base untill 200/200 at 3/3)?
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On March 13 2015 23:01 t0ssboy wrote:
How does one play against Avilo mech when going Bio(He just never leaves his base untill 200/200 at 3/3)?
air transition.
Just because of that I don't find any good examples/guides or games.
Just do an air transition into skyterran and kill him.
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I just wondered if there are any viable TvP builds where you rush to Ghosts after your fast expansion. Is there a Stim and Ghost timing which can work to kill the Protoss?
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Ok I feel like this may have been asked, but I just ran into it the other day and I was baffled.
I'm not sure how long mass raven/PF in TvT has been around but I had no idea what to do against it. I felt like after my initial pressure, which was a banshee harass with a few pokes at the front, I was ahead. I triple expanded and tried to keep his side of the map scouted. But he slipped past me and expanded on the far side in 4 places with PFs and then went mass raven.
With all the PFs, turrets, and ravens I couldnt force my way in to break him and I ended up losing all my production to autoturrets...
Also, I'm asking this now bc I first saw it while watching Dragon stream and he seemed to do it often while playing troll games.
Should I have made ghosts to EMP the ravens? Or just transition into my own raven/viking army?
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On March 18 2015 04:40 Corrrrr wrote:
Ok I feel like this may have been asked, but I just ran into it the other day and I was baffled.
I'm not sure how long mass raven/PF in TvT has been around but I had no idea what to do against it. I felt like after my initial pressure, which was a banshee harass with a few pokes at the front, I was ahead. I triple expanded and tried to keep his side of the map scouted. But he slipped past me and expanded on the far side in 4 places with PFs and then went mass raven.
With all the PFs, turrets, and ravens I couldnt force my way in to break him and I ended up losing all my production to autoturrets...
Also, I'm asking this now bc I first saw it while watching Dragon stream and he seemed to do it often while playing troll games.
Should I have made ghosts to EMP the ravens? Or just transition into my own raven/viking army?
It's actually not super difficult to lose to this troll strategy if you are not careful, but when I've played someone trolling with it, or Ketroc and his disciples. I just send a marine to every base on the map, make sure PF's can't morph, and then just relax, macro, and throw units at him until he dies while making sure that bases don't land.
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How do I counter oracles. Protoss are stomping me jsut because i can't stop his oracles from taking like 15 kills every game.
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Open reaper into reactor expand. Get a factory and pump out 2 marines at a time and a few widow mines(2 to 4 usually), while getting a starport. The reaper scout should either see a stargate in his base or if you suspect he is proxying one based on gas gathered and the amount of pylons, then send it around the map to those possible proxy locations. Keep Marines and a few widow mines in each mineral line, widow mines 1 shot oracles. You will often see pros hide the widow mines near refineries to make them harder to see. When you clean up the oracles then drop him with the marines and mines, or drop the mines and push the front with the marines to force him to properly split his forces. When you push out though get a few turrets if you think he may make more oracles or if he still has some around the map.
Basically well placed widow mines 1 shot oracles, followed by turrets when you want to push out. I didn't mention it but obviously you will want to add more barracks at some point but I'm not sure of the exact timing since I play mech TvP. I use this opening though and if I scout oracles I almost never lose much.
If you just scout normal macro play then you go for an attack as soon as you have 2 mines and your first medivac should be popping. I usually drop the mines at the back while pushing the front with however many marines I've made. Against protoss who don't multitask well it often does solid damage.
If you try this build though fast blink timings can be trouble, if you scout it early enough get a techlab on the factory and make some tanks with extra bunkers. If they don't have detection widow mine drops can do a lot of damage but he may still be able to kill you if you don't have enough back home.
Maybe someone higher level than me can give you different advice, but I have had success with this against oracles and protoss in general.
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On March 20 2015 13:28 00Zarathustra wrote:
How do I counter oracles. Protoss are stomping me jsut because i can't stop his oracles from taking like 15 kills every game.
I think there's a replay of Bbyong just destroying Hero's oracle opening at the last IEM, maybe check that replay out and steal that build.
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On March 13 2015 23:01 t0ssboy wrote:
How does one play against Avilo mech when going Bio(He just never leaves his base untill 200/200 at 3/3)?
Whatever you do, don't build BCs. I can't remember the last time I've seen him lose to BCs. Ravens are just too cost and supply-efficient vs BCs.
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On March 20 2015 13:28 00Zarathustra wrote:
How do I counter oracles. Protoss are stomping me jsut because i can't stop his oracles from taking like 15 kills every game.
You don't, you just get better about placing turrets in the right places and placing marines.
Generally: 2 turrets in the mineral lines and 1 turret covering production facility.
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About mass raven: The BC's are actually countered by vikings, and ravens help you win the viking war.
About Oracles: It takes 6 marines to kill an oracle. Then you rape it. With 5 marines all marines die. A good thing to do is to rally your marines to your SCV-line in earlygame. As soon as you have built 6 marines you have good temporary defence.
Also about oracles: If you scout after your first barracks is done you can get into his base and if you see: cybernetics core just done and he doesnt do all three of these: Mothershipcore on nexus, warpgate research on cybernetics core and gateway production: Then he has something hidden and more often than not that is a stargate. Because stargate is reeeaally heavy on gas.
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I need help in tvt vs mech. I play pure bio the reason being that I want my macro and mechanics to improve so my fundamentals are sound. I don't want to get to plat doing tank timings every game. Unfortunately tank timings are what I lose to  They usually transition into mech or in one case ravens.
Here are some replays: http://drop.sc/394933 http://drop.sc/394932 http://drop.sc/394931
I was pretty tired when I was playing these games so I my macro may not have been the best...
Also, do you guys use the "L" key to lift your buildings or do you rebind it?
Thanks
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United States696 Posts
On March 21 2015 06:06 Gamegene wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2015 13:28 00Zarathustra wrote:
How do I counter oracles. Protoss are stomping me jsut because i can't stop his oracles from taking like 15 kills every game. You don't, you just get better about placing turrets in the right places and placing marines. Generally: 2 turrets in the mineral lines and 1 turret covering production facility.
you shouldn't say you don't because you can, also you don't need 2 turrets in your mineral line only 1 just in the middle and move you scv to the other side the oracles at, also have marine near or in mineral line as well till your ready to move out. no need to waste 200 extra minerals on turrets when 1 turret in each mineral line will do. also yea 1 turret covering you production if your having a hard time defending it but some times not need if you get enough marines out. think of like this you use the 200 minerals for turrets then you have less marines to defend or push later or even makes your push later/ weaker because you invested in to much defense.
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there's no guarentee that you'll either A kill the oracle (it walks into a mine) or B get a punish on the opponent for choosing to make oracles... or that your opponent will even make the damn things in the first place.
sure you CAN do it but generally speaking you don't
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When playing mech in TvZ at what time do you claim your 3rd? Given that you do not scout any bust or large roach attack.
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So I need a few clarifications on how to play in some very specific situations :
- My first concern is about the standard CC first into 3CC in TvZ:
I never feel like I am getting an advantage with this build .Wheter the zerg has an easier time allining me or just has an easier time macroing because the pressure is just non existent. The helions just doesn't really accomplish anything beside scouting. So my question is : Do you play that build while embrassing the total greedy part (no scan, ebay before barracks etc..) or do you still try to play while investing ressources into information knowing that it just put you behind in the long run ? Also do you think that a build that gives damage potential is always beter in TvZ ? (hellbatt pushes, banshee, ...) .
-Still in TvZ, How do you play vs someone who spends his gas in an extreme way in the midgamee, like a lot of mutas or a lot of baneling? In some case they even stay on something like 65-70 drones to do so. It's a situation in wich I feel that I have to be defensive because the zerg when maxed out will not have the best composition. But even if i say that, i know from experience that being defensive vs a zerg just never work out for me. So what is the best attitude for you ?
-Last question, this time in TvT, let's say it's an even game, Bio vs Mech, I play bio.
The general problem I have is this one : Some mech player just choose to be 99% safe, they play with a 13-15 minutes third, they just mass tanks and start very early on Ravens with rings of turrets in the entire main (aka Nodoomdrop). Obviously the answer is to abuse that by having a really abusive economy on your side but : Do you think you can still max with bio or do you have to begin the transition into air earlier ? It's situationnal in some ways but in general if i don't max, i can't really prevent them from taking an earlier 4th .. And if i do i am stuck and forced to give him units to free supply for air as well and it doesn't seems worth it. So what's your attitude vs those strategy ?
I am GM on NA and High master on Eu and I know I am very far from being good at this game but I can handle technical answer with timings, Bo's if needed
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EPT
