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On May 31 2015 00:22 Ty2 wrote:
how can you use air superiority to your advantage? In mech vs. mech TvT when I'm able to get a higher viking count and at some point Terran decides to give up air control I have free reign of the skies. I don't know how to abuse it yet though. Are there any ideas? I thought about using medivacs to load hellbats, maybe banshees and ravens. It feels like it takes a long time though to get a 2nd starport with a tech lab ready. When you realize you have air control and the opposing Terran won't attempt to contest it, when do you stop making vikings and start transitioning into medivacs? Just whenever you realize Terran isn't going to make anymore air units? When do you start making more starports? After the 5th factory? Does it vary depending on what playstyle you're going for? What is the micro behind hellbat drops+army attack. Do you simply boost the medviacs and try to drop them near Siege tanks/marine lines? Are there various playstyles of mech? Are there any exemplary VODs I can watch? When engaging a siege tank line with hellbat/siege tank, do you siege your own tanks when they're in range of the enemy Siege tanks after the hellbats take the first hits or do you leave them unsieged and continue attacking in non siege mode? What do you do against Thors? Some terrans in response to 1 or 2 banshees or lack of air control in general start to pepper Thors into their army composition. Are there any cons/pros to Thors that I can abuse or need to be wary of?
When you have air control, the biggest thing you have is line of sight for your tanks, that's the deciding advantage : you can have good positionning without constantly using scan, and thus have your tanks hit his tanks freely. You have also the possibility to set a pretty efficient contain and take a decisive economy advantage.
You're not forced to switch tech at all, but a few banshees can help getting rid of his tanks. Ravens are of course critical and you should add them at some point. BC are nearly useless, unless your opponent starts massing thors and static D. Just add a couple of starports with techlabs and you should be fine.
If you see your opponent stopped wikings, stop them too, 1 viking vs 0 is as good as 10 viking vs 0 if you see what I mean...
I'm not sure about dropping hellbats, this move is usually meant to counter bio tank more than pure mech, if anything just land the vikings...
Good recent mech vs mech vod is Proleague 2105 round 3 week 3 Dream vs Reality :
reality has air advantage, but one drop at his nat puts his viking out of position, an engagement follows at Dream 4th and dream has his viking and reality doesn't. Dream with his viking has better vision, he can siege before Reality and anihilates his army (see how viking are landed to help kill the tanks). Reality's air army finally comes, but it's too late, it has not ground units under it and is useless. Air advantage won the game, even if it wasn't the guy with the most vikings that had the air advantage for the decisive battle...
Hope this helps.
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When going mech I find that games are typically decided by macro, positioning and scouting for air switches. Upgrades are typically less important compared to when you use bio. That said is it better to
a) Go for fast double upgrades
b) Go for delayed double upgrades (ie prioritise army size over upgrades, then go for double upgrades).
c) Go for +1 attack from one armoury, then double upgrades after that.
d) Only go for +3 attack from a single armoury (then upgrade armour afterwards).
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Ok....has this occurred to anyone else...
Say for example, you scout oracle play or 2 base muta or something of the sort. "No problem" you think, "Ebay is already up so I can just put down 2 turrets" BT, BT. Bam you're safe.
So a bit later the mutas or oracle show up and you get ready to group your SCV around your turrets....but wait. There are no turrets. Because they were never actually built.
Even though you made sure the silhouette was green and the building place-down SFX played (the clunk sfx). And all you can think of is "Wait a minute...I remember putting them down few moments ago..." while your SCV all get pwned and then lose the game.
Anyone else? Or am I just going crazy? This has occurred like maybe 3 times over the last week.
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On June 02 2015 01:23 Gaskal wrote:
Ok....has this occurred to anyone else...
Say for example, you scout oracle play or 2 base muta or something of the sort. "No problem" you think, "Ebay is already up so I can just put down 2 turrets" BT, BT. Bam you're safe.
So a bit later the mutas or oracle show up and you get ready to group your SCV around your turrets....but wait. There are no turrets. Because they were never actually built.
Even though you made sure the silhouette was green and the building place-down SFX played (the clunk sfx). And all you can think of is "Wait a minute...I remember putting them down few moments ago..." while your SCV all get pwned and then lose the game.
Anyone else? Or am I just going crazy? This has occurred like maybe 3 times over the last week.
it sometimes happens when the place where you want to build the turrets is blocked by other scvs.
If you build a turret in your mineral line you have to also check if the turret is actually building. It has happened to me too that I built a turret in my mineral line and didn't check if it is building and then lost because the turret got canceled due to the scvs.
If you notice it you just have to try again building the turret.
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On May 29 2015 15:44 Gwavajuice wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2015 12:14 Danglars wrote:
New go-to map bans for Terran 1v1? Preference for defeating early game cheese. No map has to be banned in regard of early game cheese, they're all reasonnably defendable, even Inferno pools horizontal position is ok. It's minor factor compated to other cheese defense basics, like scouting and build order for example...
I wasn't asking for cute comments reminding us all that vetoes on map don't trump player skill and execution. I'm looking for the veto choices and justifications from top terrans.
They're all reasonably defendable, hey that's good news. Sadly, I'm not asking for the current state of terran on this season's ladder map pool. I'm looking for the pros/cons of bans with a preference for making blink plays worse, etc.
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On June 02 2015 03:17 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2015 15:44 Gwavajuice wrote:On May 29 2015 12:14 Danglars wrote:
New go-to map bans for Terran 1v1? Preference for defeating early game cheese. No map has to be banned in regard of early game cheese, they're all reasonnably defendable, even Inferno pools horizontal position is ok. It's minor factor compated to other cheese defense basics, like scouting and build order for example... I wasn't asking for cute comments reminding us all that vetoes on map don't trump player skill and execution. I'm looking for the veto choices and justifications from top terrans. They're all reasonably defendable, hey that's good news. Sadly, I'm not asking for the current state of terran on this season's ladder map pool. I'm looking for the pros/cons of bans with a preference for making blink plays worse, etc.
On May 29 2015 12:14 Danglars wrote:
New go-to map bans for Terran 1v1? Preference for defeating early game cheese.
Well you clearly indicated you were talking about bans because early game cheeses, which are not the one factor imho to ban a map in the current map pool (there is no heavy rain or yeonsu today)
Sorry I couldn't help you more.
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On June 02 2015 03:44 Gwavajuice wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2015 03:17 Danglars wrote:On May 29 2015 15:44 Gwavajuice wrote:On May 29 2015 12:14 Danglars wrote:
New go-to map bans for Terran 1v1? Preference for defeating early game cheese. No map has to be banned in regard of early game cheese, they're all reasonnably defendable, even Inferno pools horizontal position is ok. It's minor factor compated to other cheese defense basics, like scouting and build order for example... I wasn't asking for cute comments reminding us all that vetoes on map don't trump player skill and execution. I'm looking for the veto choices and justifications from top terrans. They're all reasonably defendable, hey that's good news. Sadly, I'm not asking for the current state of terran on this season's ladder map pool. I'm looking for the pros/cons of bans with a preference for making blink plays worse, etc. Show nested quote +On May 29 2015 12:14 Danglars wrote:
New go-to map bans for Terran 1v1? Preference for defeating early game cheese. Well you clearly indicated you were talking about bans because early game cheeses, which are not the one factor imho to ban a map in the current map pool (there is no heavy rain or yeonsu today) Sorry I couldn't help you more. No, in fact that's the plain meaning of the word preference. Amongst the world of reasons why you ban maps, I would favor the possible cheese-related ones. I don't want to turn this into a vocab lesson, I'm just interested if there's a common preference amongst terrans that occasionally read this thread. If you banned at random or didn't ban at all, feel free to not respond at all.
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Hi! Gold Terran here with some questions about reaper expand. Since my main concern is macro, I'd like to have a build I can use in all three matchups. I always open 12/12 Reaper expand, no problems here. However, I'm not sure how to follow up my expansion. Against Zerg and Terran, a 1-1-1 follow seems to be the better option, since Hellions are great against Zerg and I am not able to win midgame TvT without tanks. However, since my mechanics aren't good enough to properly widow mine drop, I find 3-rax followup better against Protoss.
What do you guys think? Should I follow up with 3-rax in every matchup or 1-1-1? I know it probably doesn't matter since I'm gold and if I was good enough I could win with any build, but I really want your opinion on this one.
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I would say cheese/all in could be factor in vetoing expedition lost.
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On June 02 2015 03:17 Danglars wrote:
I wasn't asking for cute comments reminding us all that vetoes on map don't trump player skill and execution. I'm looking for the veto choices and justifications from top terrans.
They're all reasonably defendable, hey that's good news. Sadly, I'm not asking for the current state of terran on this season's ladder map pool. I'm looking for the pros/cons of bans with a preference for making blink plays worse, etc.
Expedition Lost I really dislike. Haven't played a single map on it, the destructible rocks that give players a straight shot into the other's main make defending roach pushes annoying. "Oh, he bunkered up? Whatever I'll just go through rocks"
Vaani is one that a lot of players like. I'm wary of it because it's so easy to bane bust up that first small ramp. Once that's down and lings start flooding in, its practically insta GG because of the base layout (access to main and natural in one swoop). Other maps you can at least save the main and lose the natural, but if you get bane busted on Vaani you're fucked. Exact same reason why vetoed Nimbus as well when it was in map pool, only this is worse than Nimbus because your expo is parked on low ground rather than high.
Inferno Pools might have a huge map spawn but it's also a 4 player map so you can get blind all-in'ed occasionally without being able to scout it in time. It's even worse if it's blink because of how ridiculously far your ramp is from where the stalkers blink in.
Those are the only maps I can think of that make certain all-ins easier for other races
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On June 02 2015 12:55 Gaskal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2015 03:17 Danglars wrote:
I wasn't asking for cute comments reminding us all that vetoes on map don't trump player skill and execution. I'm looking for the veto choices and justifications from top terrans.
They're all reasonably defendable, hey that's good news. Sadly, I'm not asking for the current state of terran on this season's ladder map pool. I'm looking for the pros/cons of bans with a preference for making blink plays worse, etc. Expedition Lost I really dislike. Haven't played a single map on it, the destructible rocks that give players a straight shot into the other's main make defending roach pushes annoying. "Oh, he bunkered up? Whatever I'll just go through rocks" Vaani is one that a lot of players like. I'm wary of it because it's so easy to bane bust up that first small ramp. Once that's down and lings start flooding in, its practically insta GG because of the base layout (access to main and natural in one swoop). Other maps you can at least save the main and lose the natural, but if you get bane busted on Vaani you're fucked. Exact same reason why vetoed Nimbus as well when it was in map pool, only this is worse than Nimbus because your expo is parked on low ground rather than high. Inferno Pools might have a huge map spawn but it's also a 4 player map so you can get blind all-in'ed occasionally without being able to scout it in time. It's even worse if it's blink because of how ridiculously far your ramp is from where the stalkers blink in. Those are the only maps I can think of that make certain all-ins easier for other races
These busts are only scary the first 7 minutes and those are pretty easy to scout and hold imo (dem hellions). I think Terran has an advantage so you should play it 
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Hi guys. I haven't played sc2 in ages. I was masters terran at one point though.
To get back into the game,I'm looking for good general builds and good cheese builds to learn.
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Hi guys. I haven't played sc2 in ages. I was masters terran at one point though.
To get back into the game,I'm looking for good general builds and good cheese builds to learn.
For TvZ i'm using dreams CC first on 4 player maps and 11 reaper on 2 player maps
For TvP I'm using standard Maru's 1-1-1 expand + widow mine drop with heavy drop play and reaper expand into 3 rax 9 min med stim timing
TvT I'm using 12 gas 13 rax into 1-1-1 banshee play into 3 cc or 3 rax depending what my opponent does or what kind of damage i do
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On June 02 2015 23:42 Pirfiktshon wrote:Show nested quote +Hi guys. I haven't played sc2 in ages. I was masters terran at one point though.
To get back into the game,I'm looking for good general builds and good cheese builds to learn. For TvZ i'm using dreams CC first on 4 player maps and 11 reaper on 2 player maps For TvP I'm using standard Maru's 1-1-1 expand + widow mine drop with heavy drop play and reaper expand into 3 rax 9 min med stim timing TvT I'm using 12 gas 13 rax into 1-1-1 banshee play into 3 cc or 3 rax depending what my opponent does or what kind of damage i do
Hi, i'm also coming back after 2~ish years off...can you elaborate a bit more on those builds? because im totally lost...
Like, in TvZ, whats the followup to the cc first? 3rax? and the 11reaper opener? Is that a macro oriented build or a build thta relies on putting pressure early/mid?
For TvP, whats maru's standart 1-1-1? I mean gas timings, when to put down a cc, etc...
Or could anyone link me to some builds so i can read/learn about them? Thanks in advance!
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On June 03 2015 04:57 Sif_ wrote:
Hi, i'm also coming back after 2~ish years off...can you elaborate a bit more on those builds? because im totally lost...
Like, in TvZ, whats the followup to the cc first? 3rax? and the 11reaper opener? Is that a macro oriented build or a build thta relies on putting pressure early/mid?
For TvP, whats maru's standart 1-1-1? I mean gas timings, when to put down a cc, etc...
Or could anyone link me to some builds so i can read/learn about them? Thanks in advance!
Dream's CC first is, as the name suggests, a macro oriented opening that is fairly safe. It allows for cloak banshee off 1 gas with 3 CC behind it, which is why he is so fond of it. It can be used for defending a roach timing or pressuring the zerg. You can transition into either mech or bio afterwards.
11 reaper I think is the proxy reaper. If the zerg opened hatch first then you can even try to sneak a bunker into the main and
rally the reapers there. With micro and increasing amounts of reapers you can even snipe queens & force out spine crawlers.
Maru loves his mine drops in TvP but it's more the manipulating of what the protoss is reacting to that gives him such a great ability to find windows to do damage. Stay on one gas, reactor after 1 reaper, factory at 100 gas (2 mines) and starport at 100 gas (1 medevac).You drop 2 mines + 4 marines in main (save the medevac and 1 mine if you can) while running 6 marines up into the natural to kill probes or snipe mothership core.
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On June 03 2015 10:32 Gaskal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2015 04:57 Sif_ wrote:
Hi, i'm also coming back after 2~ish years off...can you elaborate a bit more on those builds? because im totally lost...
Like, in TvZ, whats the followup to the cc first? 3rax? and the 11reaper opener? Is that a macro oriented build or a build thta relies on putting pressure early/mid?
For TvP, whats maru's standart 1-1-1? I mean gas timings, when to put down a cc, etc...
Or could anyone link me to some builds so i can read/learn about them? Thanks in advance! Dream's CC first is, as the name suggests, a macro oriented opening that is fairly safe. It allows for cloak banshee off 1 gas with 3 CC behind it, which is why he is so fond of it. It can be used for defending a roach timing or pressuring the zerg. You can transition into either mech or bio afterwards. 11 reaper I think is the proxy reaper. If the zerg opened hatch first then you can even try to sneak a bunker into the main and rally the reapers there. With micro and increasing amounts of reapers you can even snipe queens & force out spine crawlers. Maru loves his mine drops in TvP but it's more the manipulating of what the protoss is reacting to that gives him such a great ability to find windows to do damage. Stay on one gas, reactor after 1 reaper, factory at 100 gas (2 mines) and starport at 100 gas (1 medevac).You drop 2 mines + 4 marines in main (save the medevac and 1 mine if you can) while running 6 marines up into the natural to kill probes or snipe mothership core.
not a terran player but 11 reaper certainly doesn't have to be proxied. you go 11 rax in base and make 3 reapers to harass queens and add DPS to the reaper/hellion army
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Hi, i'm also coming back after 2~ish years off...can you elaborate a bit more on those builds? because im totally lost...
Like, in TvZ, whats the followup to the cc first? 3rax? and the 11reaper opener? Is that a macro oriented build or a build thta relies on putting pressure early/mid?
For TvP, whats maru's standart 1-1-1? I mean gas timings, when to put down a cc, etc...
Or could anyone link me to some builds so i can read/learn about them? Thanks in advance!
Maru's standard 1-1-1 you can watch from the small vod thread for exact timings that one I just kinda wung it though I should actually look and take notes like the others for good play though TvP hasn't been a real problem for me...
This is to be by no means a bible but these are notes i have pulled from games as a general rule of thumb to learn the builds and the 11 rax reaper is in base at wall off.....
cc first
14 cc
15 rax
17 ref
scv that finishes rax builds bunker at front
21 fact
2 marines then reactor
3rd cc 5:20
fact finishes build starport add 2nd ref
scout with hellions first 2
medivac with starport then viking
armory 7 ish
2 ebay
2 more refineries at 8
8:30 attack with hellbat and marine and add 2 rax at the same time
start stim plus +1/+1
add 2 more rax
get combat shield as soon as stim finishes
drop 3rd when feel safe
add factory when you land your 3rd
move out when you have 1/1
research drilling claws when 2nd fact finishes with techlab
and start thors if they went heavy muta
more widow mine if they went heavy bane
tanks if they went roach
drop wehre possible to pull army out of position
crush 4th
end
reaper pressure build
11 rax 11 gas
2 reaper
19 cc
3rd reaper
factory when you can afford it
reactor on rax after third reaper is done
3rd cc
5:45 go back to base with reapers based off of timing with speedlings
make starport moment fact is completed
techlab on rax switch with starport
techlab on rax start stim asap
8 hellions
2nd refinery 7 min
7:30 start 2 ebay
take nat refineries
8 mins make 2 rax lift factory and make 2nd reactor
9 mins add 2 more rax
make factory on techlab from starport
lift starport and make reactor
50% ebay done add armory
as soon as stim is done start combat shield
have 2 rax with techlab rest with reactor
conc shells
13 mins add 3 rax ** when 3rd is saturated
research drilling claws after 2+2+ i started
adjust factory unit according to zerg comp
15 mins start 4th
3 rax total with techlab and 5 rax with reactor
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On June 02 2015 07:55 Saeldran wrote:
Hi! Gold Terran here with some questions about reaper expand. Since my main concern is macro, I'd like to have a build I can use in all three matchups. I always open 12/12 Reaper expand, no problems here. However, I'm not sure how to follow up my expansion. Against Zerg and Terran, a 1-1-1 follow seems to be the better option, since Hellions are great against Zerg and I am not able to win midgame TvT without tanks. However, since my mechanics aren't good enough to properly widow mine drop, I find 3-rax followup better against Protoss.
What do you guys think? Should I follow up with 3-rax in every matchup or 1-1-1? I know it probably doesn't matter since I'm gold and if I was good enough I could win with any build, but I really want your opinion on this one.
Hi.
Against terrans I would suggest you read : TLStrategy's article about TvT openers even if the focus is more on the gaz first builds, the concepts are the same when it comes to how to scout, how to adapt. TvT is very versatile and there are many roads you can take to get in the mid game with an advantage. if you open reaper for example, you can follow with a 8 marine 6 helion 1 medivac push, , you can also go for banhsee if your oponent went gaz first into banshee, you can play defensive, you can go mech, you can go bio etc... check WCS 2015 S2 qualifiers ForGG vs Soul to have some good examples of reaper openings plays.
Against Zerg, going into 1-1-1 is not the standard nowadays, but more an agressive opener for a hellions/hellbats push support with medivacs or banshees. The standard macro build is reaper(s) -> reactor hellions stim -> 3rd CC -> 2 extra rax or 2 EB -> starport raxes 4,5, 6+ into big bio mine push. There are plenty of small variations to do this, you can for example check how INnoVation does it
Against Protosses, reaper into 3 rax is not done anymore, as it was a very specific build aimed to counter 2 bases blink all ins, when maps were crap and widow mines weak. If you really don't want to go for mines, go 2 rax -> facto. 3 raxes delays your medivac too much and also your 3rd CC (because of mass marine production). But really, you should try the mine drop, it's not that hard, you just need to practice, and your opponents should not be very good at defending it. Check this article. Just practice it, you will have very good surprises.
Last, against both P and Z, if you're not confident in your multitask (reaper does require multitasking) maybe you should try CC first builds. They are very powerful, esp in gold league where your opponents have bad macro, they will give you a huge eco advantage that will secure the win if you don't do anything stupid.
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On June 03 2015 12:44 Pirfiktshon wrote:Show nested quote +Hi, i'm also coming back after 2~ish years off...can you elaborate a bit more on those builds? because im totally lost...
Like, in TvZ, whats the followup to the cc first? 3rax? and the 11reaper opener? Is that a macro oriented build or a build thta relies on putting pressure early/mid?
For TvP, whats maru's standart 1-1-1? I mean gas timings, when to put down a cc, etc...
Or could anyone link me to some builds so i can read/learn about them? Thanks in advance! Maru's standard 1-1-1 you can watch from the small vod thread for exact timings that one I just kinda wung it though I should actually look and take notes like the others for good play though TvP hasn't been a real problem for me... This is to be by no means a bible but these are notes i have pulled from games as a general rule of thumb to learn the builds and the 11 rax reaper is in base at wall off..... cc first 14 cc 15 rax 17 ref scv that finishes rax builds bunker at front 21 fact 2 marines then reactor 3rd cc 5:20 fact finishes build starport add 2nd ref scout with hellions first 2 medivac with starport then viking armory 7 ish 2 ebay 2 more refineries at 8 8:30 attack with hellbat and marine and add 2 rax at the same time start stim plus +1/+1 add 2 more rax get combat shield as soon as stim finishes drop 3rd when feel safe add factory when you land your 3rd move out when you have 1/1 research drilling claws when 2nd fact finishes with techlab and start thors if they went heavy muta more widow mine if they went heavy bane tanks if they went roach drop wehre possible to pull army out of position crush 4th end reaper pressure build 11 rax 11 gas 2 reaper 19 cc 3rd reaper factory when you can afford it reactor on rax after third reaper is done 3rd cc 5:45 go back to base with reapers based off of timing with speedlings make starport moment fact is completed techlab on rax switch with starport techlab on rax start stim asap 8 hellions 2nd refinery 7 min 7:30 start 2 ebay take nat refineries 8 mins make 2 rax lift factory and make 2nd reactor 9 mins add 2 more rax make factory on techlab from starport lift starport and make reactor 50% ebay done add armory as soon as stim is done start combat shield have 2 rax with techlab rest with reactor conc shells 13 mins add 3 rax ** when 3rd is saturated research drilling claws after 2+2+ i started adjust factory unit according to zerg comp 15 mins start 4th 3 rax total with techlab and 5 rax with reactor
Thank you so much!
Gonna hop on tonight and practise these
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EPT
