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On September 12 2013 23:51 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2013 05:12 saaaa wrote:On September 12 2013 02:59 Faust852 wrote:
Any tips against Mass phenixes-Colossi compo in TvP ? I feel like I can't do anything once he reachs a good 150 army supply. it sounds dumb but mass viking beat it.. you need 2 starport pumping vikings and you should be fine against it Did that, 3 bases vs 3 bases. He kept harassing me with shit ton of phenix killing my economy even with turets in my minerals lines. With I go, he had like 15 phenix and 10 colossi, I pumped on 2 starports from the very beginning but It was like I had no ground army and I wasn't even able to kill all of the colossi 
First of all.. 10 colossi is a ton. You should attack him before that. If he keeps harassing your mineral lines add another turret to each mineral line, the damage shouldn't be too great but it's unavoidable. A good way to avoid it is being out on the map forcing him to use the phoenix defensively.
As soon as you see phoenix in play it's almost certainly phoenix colossus, add a second reactor starport( you can make the reactor on your fact) and make constant vikings out of both starports. Check to see he is in fact continuing to make colossus every once in a while and poke him, but don't drop since phoenix will just crush your drops. Just posture around the map without committing unless he makes a huge error, since with phoenix you won't be able to retreat from a fight.
Once you have 20ish vikings attack him. The colossus count should be 6ish at this point. Shift click the colossus and kite with your army, making sure not to take colossus fire while they are all still alive. Your army will just get decimated if you engage with everything. If he has stalkers in his army as well so you can't just shift-click the colossus effectively, you can kite his army and wear it down before engaging. The vikings outrange the phoenix by alot after all..
Don't drop with your first 4 medivacs and dont lose them snice you'll need them for this timing.
And upgrade your vikings of course.
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Post the replay.
And 10 collosi? You're practically fucked no matter what then.
And you shouldn't be going pure Viking, marauder Viking works better.
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On September 13 2013 00:27 Bulugulu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2013 23:51 Faust852 wrote:On September 12 2013 05:12 saaaa wrote:On September 12 2013 02:59 Faust852 wrote:
Any tips against Mass phenixes-Colossi compo in TvP ? I feel like I can't do anything once he reachs a good 150 army supply. it sounds dumb but mass viking beat it.. you need 2 starport pumping vikings and you should be fine against it Did that, 3 bases vs 3 bases. He kept harassing me with shit ton of phenix killing my economy even with turets in my minerals lines. With I go, he had like 15 phenix and 10 colossi, I pumped on 2 starports from the very beginning but It was like I had no ground army and I wasn't even able to kill all of the colossi First of all.. 10 colossi is a ton. You should attack him before that. If he keeps harassing your mineral lines add another turret to each mineral line, the damage shouldn't be too great but it's unavoidable. A good way to avoid it is being out on the map forcing him to use the phoenix defensively. As soon as you see phoenix in play it's almost certainly phoenix colossus, add a second reactor starport( you can make the reactor on your fact) and make constant vikings out of both starports. Check to see he is in fact continuing to make colossus every once in a while and poke him, but don't drop since phoenix will just crush your drops. Just posture around the map without committing unless he makes a huge error, since with phoenix you won't be able to retreat from a fight. Once you have 20ish vikings attack him. The colossus count should be 6ish at this point. Shift click the colossus and kite with your army, making sure not to take colossus fire while they are all still alive. Your army will just get decimated if you engage with everything. If he has stalkers in his army as well so you can't just shift-click the colossus effectively, you can kite his army and wear it down before engaging. The vikings outrange the phoenix by alot after all.. Don't drop with your first 4 medivacs and dont lose them snice you'll need them for this timing. And upgrade your vikings of course.
Kas played against this style today. it was kas vs. macsed in the ATC. check it out
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Hi guys i am experiencing some serious trouble with mass muta play i was wondering if it was a good idea to incorporate thors in my late game army 4M to deal with those pesky mutas. My mines get always sniped and my marine numbers are really reduced because of banelings. what are you thought on that someone has tried it yet????
The idea would be to get thor with the second factory with techlab u use to research drilling claw
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On September 13 2013 03:36 saaaa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 00:27 Bulugulu wrote:On September 12 2013 23:51 Faust852 wrote:On September 12 2013 05:12 saaaa wrote:On September 12 2013 02:59 Faust852 wrote:
Any tips against Mass phenixes-Colossi compo in TvP ? I feel like I can't do anything once he reachs a good 150 army supply. it sounds dumb but mass viking beat it.. you need 2 starport pumping vikings and you should be fine against it Did that, 3 bases vs 3 bases. He kept harassing me with shit ton of phenix killing my economy even with turets in my minerals lines. With I go, he had like 15 phenix and 10 colossi, I pumped on 2 starports from the very beginning but It was like I had no ground army and I wasn't even able to kill all of the colossi First of all.. 10 colossi is a ton. You should attack him before that. If he keeps harassing your mineral lines add another turret to each mineral line, the damage shouldn't be too great but it's unavoidable. A good way to avoid it is being out on the map forcing him to use the phoenix defensively. As soon as you see phoenix in play it's almost certainly phoenix colossus, add a second reactor starport( you can make the reactor on your fact) and make constant vikings out of both starports. Check to see he is in fact continuing to make colossus every once in a while and poke him, but don't drop since phoenix will just crush your drops. Just posture around the map without committing unless he makes a huge error, since with phoenix you won't be able to retreat from a fight. Once you have 20ish vikings attack him. The colossus count should be 6ish at this point. Shift click the colossus and kite with your army, making sure not to take colossus fire while they are all still alive. Your army will just get decimated if you engage with everything. If he has stalkers in his army as well so you can't just shift-click the colossus effectively, you can kite his army and wear it down before engaging. The vikings outrange the phoenix by alot after all.. Don't drop with your first 4 medivacs and dont lose them snice you'll need them for this timing. And upgrade your vikings of course. Kas played against this style today. it was kas vs. macsed in the ATC. check it out
Thank you all 
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On September 13 2013 06:08 SSVnormandy wrote:
Hi guys i am experiencing some serious trouble with mass muta play i was wondering if it was a good idea to incorporate thors in my late game army 4M to deal with those pesky mutas. My mines get always sniped and my marine numbers are really reduced because of banelings. what are you thought on that someone has tried it yet????
The idea would be to get thor with the second factory with techlab u use to research drilling claw
Yes, adding Thors for high muta numbers are preferable. After some point, critical amount of mutas can snipe individual widow mines if target fired.
Something else that you can do vs mass mutas is to clump up widow mines together. So if they force target fire an individual mine with overseer support, the other clumped up mines will be able to get their shots in. The bad thing about clumping up mines is that it really fucks up against baited ling numbers.
So you always have to take that into consideration.
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On September 13 2013 06:08 SSVnormandy wrote:
Hi guys i am experiencing some serious trouble with mass muta play i was wondering if it was a good idea to incorporate thors in my late game army 4M to deal with those pesky mutas. My mines get always sniped and my marine numbers are really reduced because of banelings. what are you thought on that someone has tried it yet????
The idea would be to get thor with the second factory with techlab u use to research drilling claw
how many mutalisks are we talking about? if its like 30 plus then yeah a few thors are good to have because if the zerg player loses focus for even a second then a volley or 2 can take out a sizeable amount just like that. You can punish inattention by killing 20-25 clumped up mutas.
NOTE: if you should happen to land a killer blow on his muta fleet, do not take it as a sign to move out. take it as a sign to take advantage of an opportunity to double expand or attack in multiple places. What im trying to say that the game is NOT over if you happen to land a lethal hit on his muta fleet
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Does anyone have any insight on the SCV pull thats popular in TvP? I've been seeing it alot agains collosus and even a few times against HT. What timing are you trying to hit, when do you know when its ok to go? What are you scouting for exactly to know when it ok to do? Is There a follow up to it if it doesnt kill them ( I'm assuming if they hold you're dead anyways but you never know)? I usually see alot of terran hitting with 2-3 ghosts, when are they throwing down the ghost academy? is it always a neccesisty to get a ghost academy when doing this pull against just collosus? And last question i have is should i focus on kill their army or just denying bases?
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On September 14 2013 05:24 ff7legend wrote:
Does anyone have any insight on the SCV pull thats popular in TvP? I've been seeing it alot agains collosus and even a few times against HT. What timing are you trying to hit, when do you know when its ok to go? What are you scouting for exactly to know when it ok to do? Is There a follow up to it if it doesnt kill them ( I'm assuming if they hold you're dead anyways but you never know)? I usually see alot of terran hitting with 2-3 ghosts, when are they throwing down the ghost academy? is it always a neccesisty to get a ghost academy when doing this pull against just collosus? And last question i have is should i focus on kill their army or just denying bases?
To keep things simple, in a standard game, Terran gets a 3rd base at around 10 minutes at the standard stim/medivac push. This forces the protoss to make collosus to survive, and means the protoss needs to take a 3rd by 11/12 minutes to avoid falling behind. This normally leaves a window in which Terran has a SCV all in timing between 13-15 minutes with around 4 medivacs and 6-10 vikings, where Terran should be 30 or so supply ahead. With perfect macro and no losses, it's possible to max at 14 minutes and in an ideal world hit before storm.
Adding 1 round of ghosts (3 techlabs) into the composition means that even if the opponent went 2 collosus into high templar, you can outmicro and emp their templars. If they do not have any templar, you can emp their sentries. The two main ways a Protoss holds a scv all in is either to have perfect forcefields with collosus doing aoe, or good storms. To get ghosts in time, you need an earlier 4th gas (a standard build only requires 3 gas before 3rd), and you get the ghost academy at around 11 minutes - as gas allows without sacrificing medivac timing. Getting ghosts means you need to hit at 1/1 upgrades (no armory) instead of 2/1 upgrades without ghosts.
If the protoss delays their tech by committing to either stargate/early blink/mass gateway/DT/immortals or gets greedy with early third (before 9 mins), then Terran can go for a 2 base SCV all in hitting at 12-13 minutes instead of a 3 base all in.
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Just so you guys know, On Yeonsu,
If in TvP/TvT ure building your first depo on top of your ramp (to scout any attempt for proxy inbase)
Theres a good chance the probe/Scv of the opponent will be able to make in your base before your scv will scout it.
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On September 14 2013 07:53 Lock0n wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2013 05:24 ff7legend wrote:
Does anyone have any insight on the SCV pull thats popular in TvP? I've been seeing it alot agains collosus and even a few times against HT. What timing are you trying to hit, when do you know when its ok to go? What are you scouting for exactly to know when it ok to do? Is There a follow up to it if it doesnt kill them ( I'm assuming if they hold you're dead anyways but you never know)? I usually see alot of terran hitting with 2-3 ghosts, when are they throwing down the ghost academy? is it always a neccesisty to get a ghost academy when doing this pull against just collosus? And last question i have is should i focus on kill their army or just denying bases? To keep things simple, in a standard game, Terran gets a 3rd base at around 10 minutes at the standard stim/medivac push. This forces the protoss to make collosus to survive, and means the protoss needs to take a 3rd by 11/12 minutes to avoid falling behind. This normally leaves a window in which Terran has a SCV all in timing between 13-15 minutes with around 4 medivacs and 6-10 vikings, where Terran should be 30 or so supply ahead. With perfect macro and no losses, it's possible to max at 14 minutes and in an ideal world hit before storm. Adding 1 round of ghosts (3 techlabs) into the composition means that even if the opponent went 2 collosus into high templar, you can outmicro and emp their templars. If they do not have any templar, you can emp their sentries. The two main ways a Protoss holds a scv all in is either to have perfect forcefields with collosus doing aoe, or good storms. To get ghosts in time, you need an earlier 4th gas (a standard build only requires 3 gas before 3rd), and you get the ghost academy at around 11 minutes - as gas allows without sacrificing medivac timing. Getting ghosts means you need to hit at 1/1 upgrades (no armory) instead of 2/1 upgrades without ghosts. If the protoss delays their tech by committing to either stargate/early blink/mass gateway/DT/immortals or gets greedy with early third (before 9 mins), then Terran can go for a 2 base SCV all in hitting at 12-13 minutes instead of a 3 base all in.
Wow, very detailed. Thank you.
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timing for scv pull if they open storm? or one colo into storm first?
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On September 16 2013 11:01 jae7cho wrote:
timing for scv pull if they open storm? or one colo into storm first?
Look at the post above you...
I wouldn't recommend SCV-pulling vs storm...
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Hi!
This is for TvT. This weekend at dreamhack bucharest we saw a few different reaper expands into 1/1/1 for tvt. We saw double reaper expand for supernova vs innovation and we saw single reaper expand for taeja vs mma during the sc2L grandfinal. Can anyone explain in which instances you'd want only one reaper and when you would want 2 reapers? Is it dependant on what you see with your scouting scv? What are each of your follow up options for you factory/port production for each build?
Another TvT question. I also noticed a 15 gas 2 marine reactor expand opening into 1-1-1. What strengths does this build have over single or double reaper expand if any?
last TvT question. Do both of these builds have the capacity to deal with the various siege/raven follow ups after a gas first cloakshee opening? Which build is better at dealing with gas first cloakshee in general? Is either build better at dealing with gas first widow mine/marine drop? Is either build better at defending gas first marine hellion medivac?
I would love someone with greater knowledge to help shed some light on these questions. thanks
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They are both safe in their own ways. Reactor expand gets you more units faster. Whilst reapers can get you great scouting info. With proper micro you can do some damage with two reapers vs two marines as you will win that fight and can harass the scvs freely whilst the reactor is building.
Edit - the above applies to 12/12 rax/gas reactor.
I think 15 gas reactor gets you a faster cc as you don't cut scvs
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EDIT: Found some posts in this thread answering my question.
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Seeing all the tvp scv pull timings out there, is there an all-in scv-pull version of the standard 10-min medivac timing? I have been theorycrafting this could be at least as powerful as the pre-storm timing the pros do, as P dont get many sentries in current meta. I have been thinking of going 4 rax or adding ghosts.
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MKP used to do a ghost timing which was awesome in WoL but is very weak vs fast colossi builds and probably not strong enough to deal with photon cannon.
Id stick to what the pros do as hitting them whilst they're teching is the key to this pull. If you hit before they start investing in tech they will have extra funds for gw units to help defend.
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Hi, does the staircase view on ggtracker is accurate? I am getting bronze - base 1 in TvZ, yet master on 2nd and 3rd base.
My 1 base mineral income time is 4:40, using Innovation CC First :O
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EPT
