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BurningRanger
Germany303 Posts
Now tbh, it was just pure luck that he had the MSC at the front of the natural instead of inbetween bases. Imo these early timings (like before 10minutes) are quite much all shut down by Photon Overcharge. You actually need an army strong enough to deal with his army AND one to take out a Nexus quickly at the same time. | ||
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Lock0n
United Kingdom184 Posts
On September 17 2013 00:17 Slydie wrote: Seeing all the tvp scv pull timings out there, is there an all-in scv-pull version of the standard 10-min medivac timing? I have been theorycrafting this could be at least as powerful as the pre-storm timing the pros do, as P dont get many sentries in current meta. I have been thinking of going 4 rax or adding ghosts. A 10-11 minute scv pull isn't going to work well because you won't be able to get medivacs as well as vikings, so even 1 collosus with forcefields can hold it. Also, nexus overcharge is still powerful against a medium sized army. You definitely won't be able to afford ghosts and starport that early, but a 4 rax ghost scv all in should work well as long as you are sure they are not making colossus. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
Is it just me or have Zergs mostly caught on to the 4M build (as described in the 4M guide). I'm getting rushed/cheesed with stupid amounts of lings and roaches really early pretty much every game and it's completely throwing off my build. Also I'm having some trouble with Proxy Stargate + 4 Gate. How is it possible to hold against Oracles, Void Rays, and Stalkers that early when going for a regular reaper expand? Bunkers die in milliseconds, oracles MELT marines... seems close to impossible. | ||
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Nimix
France1809 Posts
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On September 17 2013 06:02 Nimix wrote: ^ I tried the 2 reaper > reactored rax + tech labbed factory build a bit and liked it quite a bit. The early tanks are such a good safety bonus on the ladder. Not sure how tanks help against oracles and void rays... | ||
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Whatson
United States5357 Posts
On September 17 2013 08:31 DinoMight wrote: Not sure how tanks help against oracles and void rays... you're supposed to make marines out of your reactor rax and if you deflect the oracles shouldn't you be putting down an ebay anyways for turrets + Show Spoiler + He's probably talking about TvZ, but the build works for both scenarios | ||
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krooked
376 Posts
TvZ: What opening are you using? Scout for gas timings, know that if he gets gas he can go for a big speedling hit hoping you haven't finished your wall, so get it closed @ 5:55 if he gets gas. If you can see him continue mining gas after speed has started, expect a bust of some kind. If you can't see it you still have to expect it. Be aggressive with your scouting reapers (but keep them alive) and get your hellions out on the map early. Obviously you should get a bunker early on (cc first = bunker with the scv making the first depot). After you switch fact and rax, get tech lab and start stim + marauder (regardless of what you've scouted). Here is how I defend the different early attacks: 7RR: Repair on bunker and stop hellion production and get mines. Marauder should get in the bunker in time for this. banelingbust: Escape your bunker units just before the baneling hits, continue making hellions and kite with them. After you hold, make 8 hellions and punish him. Keep going as normal if you don't outright win with this. Ling/baneling/roach bust: This is probably the hardest one to play against. Scan him at around 7 minutes and look for double evo @ natural. If you see roach warren or no evos, get suspicious. Mass bunker (build several in natural and 1-2 on top of ramp). Make mines and place two right outside your wall (close enough so that individual zerglngs can't tick them off) and the rest behind your wall. Last second bunker escape and pull scvs after you've taken out the banes. Some zergs like to do weird timings, so always look if he takes a third or not. I get suspicious if I don't see an early third. TvP: proxySG/4G is hard to hold, the answer is bunkers and turrets. If you recognize his build, get 1 turret per mineral line, at your production and bunker up with pre pulled scvs. I don't face this at ladder often but this has won me the game, might be better ways to stop it though, not sure. | ||
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B1itZZ
United Kingdom70 Posts
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Juice!
Belgium295 Posts
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EJK
United States1302 Posts
On September 18 2013 01:53 Juice! wrote: Why does eeeevery terran in TvT go marine tank again? and how do you stop this without doing the same thing? Mech is pretty viable. You expand off of 2 factories, have a raven + viking defence and you can safely take a 3rd against bio pressure and if at any point in the aggression they overstep, you can roll over and kill them. Also hellbat drops are JUST AS STRONG with the blue flame upgrade, they just don't start with it, which is ok | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On September 18 2013 01:59 Smurfett3 wrote: Mech is pretty viable. You expand off of 2 factories, have a raven + viking defence and you can safely take a 3rd against bio pressure and if at any point in the aggression they overstep, you can roll over and kill them. Also hellbat drops are JUST AS STRONG with the blue flame upgrade, they just don't start with it, which is ok Easiest way to go mech is to open 1-1-1 either in slight pressure or defensive structure depending on his opener (defend if he did a similar 1-1-1, pressure if he FE'd), go up to 3 Factories on 2 base, take your third, go up to 5 Factories, and play a Hellion/Hellbat/Tank focused style with air control and eventual Hellbat moving companies of Medivacs. No need to build 2 Factories before expanding. Really, Viking/Hellion should be a sufficient defense versus any early pressure as long as you scout correctly, and you only need 1 Factory for the production to be constant enough. Plus, as soon as the natural is taken, you can grab more gas and just go up to 3 for the Tanks and Blue-Flame. I would recommend either a 13-gas 1-1-1 with Vikings and Reactored Hellions or a 15-gas Reactor expand into Viking/Hellion after scouting. | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
I'm going to start testing this at Masters level but has anyone else used this yet? | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On September 18 2013 03:40 Pirfiktshon wrote: Has anyone tried a 4 M vses Bio Tank? Just curious. The reason I ask is because Bio tank relies on numbers very rarely do they have a Raven unless you open with banshee. ( IE Don't go banshee when going this build ) SO you will 1. Spread Mines at expansions 2. Spread Mines about a scan apart throughout map in walking paths 3. Use mines in the Main fight. I'm going to start testing this at Masters level but has anyone else used this yet? The problem I initially see with this is that your army has no staying power, TvT is often back and forth and without tanks to stall your opponent's army it only takes one mistake where your opponent gets into a good position with their tanks for you to lose the game. I dont think the mines will delay your opponent from moving out enough, they could even just run a couple marines in front of their army to negate WM hits and move across the map unimpeded. I also can't really see mines working in big engagements, it seems likely to me they'd all be killed off without hitting much (unless your opponent doesn't split or target fire at all). That being said, please try it out and tell us how it works! These are just my inital thoughts and oftentimes things work much different in practice than they do in theory. | ||
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Nimix
France1809 Posts
Not sure how tanks help against oracles and void rays... Sorry my answer was unclear, I was talking about TvZ and the build Supernova used quite a lot :D | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
 I do see what you are saying though. Its kind of like well I will build 3 tanks for home but then its pretty much negating the production of the mines. I will see how this works | ||
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Kuroud0
18 Posts
You know another build that works better than the other? Somebody said to me to do some push with 2 rax and then expand and after that do the normal 10 min timing push with 1-1 but idk the exact build of this it would be great if someone can tell me the build order. Thanks  | ||
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klup
France612 Posts
Is it safe to do it if you scout a 4:20 expand from protoss in reaction of your CC first? (Obviously it's not safe if protoss do not expand) How protoss can scout this compared to classic CC first with no quick third? If protoss react to your CC first with a 3 nexus on his own do you think with such a build you will have a macro advantage compared to protoss? I feel that this is very good since protoss can scout it only very late with an obs. and it's very hard to differentiate this one from a classic cc first. | ||
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TeeTS
Germany2762 Posts
On September 18 2013 18:03 klup wrote: Hi guys, I wanted your opinion on opening CC first ,2 rax , quick 3rdCC of Taeja vs sOs game 1 of DH bucarest. Is it safe to do it if you scout a 4:20 expand from protoss in reaction of your CC first? (Obviously it's not safe if protoss do not expand) How protoss can scout this compared to classic CC first with no quick third? If protoss react to your CC first with a 3 nexus on his own do you think with such a build you will have a macro advantage compared to protoss? I feel that this is very good since protoss can scout it only very late with an obs. and it's very hard to differentiate this one from a classic cc first. If protoss scouts this early enough and takes a 3rd, you should have a godlike lategame like Taeja does. Because this game will go relatively even into it. | ||
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Bulugulu
Israel250 Posts
On September 18 2013 18:03 klup wrote: Hi guys, I wanted your opinion on opening CC first ,2 rax , quick 3rdCC of Taeja vs sOs game 1 of DH bucarest. Is it safe to do it if you scout a 4:20 expand from protoss in reaction of your CC first? (Obviously it's not safe if protoss do not expand) How protoss can scout this compared to classic CC first with no quick third? If protoss react to your CC first with a 3 nexus on his own do you think with such a build you will have a macro advantage compared to protoss? I feel that this is very good since protoss can scout it only very late with an obs. and it's very hard to differentiate this one from a classic cc first. If he scouts it and goes 3 nexus I don't think you have an advantage macro-wise. As far as super early 4:20 expo from toss, you should be able to defend 2 base pushes that come after that. Also the protoss can't really allin you in reaction to this cause they'll scout you too late for that, which is why the build is good. | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
Just a side note if you are comfortable with your Micro / Macro you can do a really nice split push once he takes his 3rd. By distracting him either with the drop first or attacking his 3rd first depending on where his army is posturing. | ||
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