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Hi everyone high masters NA here having some problems with TvT Mech vs mech. I used to play mech quite a lot in WoL but since HoTs came out all I've been playing is tank marine and bio. It seems to me that upgrades don't matter as much as having a lot of siege tanks and positioning.
For example you can have the upgrade lead but if you don't have good positioning or your opponent does something sneaky and out positions you your upgrades really don't matter. What I want to know is a good solid mindset to have in mech vs mech rather than rush 3 orbital double armory and just camp until maxed and then camp some more until someone makes a mistake.
When is it safe in the game to start teching to sky terran, and what parts of sky terran should you focus on first? I was purely making BC viking and it seems like seeker missles >.When I make ravens sometimes I make too many and then get rolled by thor/widow mine/viking.
Any tips or insight would be greatly appreciated.
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On August 26 2013 05:15 KingofGods wrote:
In Bomber vs. Taeja when he went gas first he went 12 gas. Is that standard? I've always went 11 gas.
11 gas is a little bit pointless since you have 100gas but your rax isn't finished yet + you cut scv production. 12gas 13rax is better.
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Despite the "defenders advantage" I feel like the aggressor has the advantage in TvT. You absolutely need to be sieged up regardless of whether you are playing bio or mech and at any point they can use the mobility of medivacs to circumvent wherever you are defending. If you try to defend possible drop locations with a portion of your forces you won't have enough to defend the front.
Anyone else feel the same way?
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On August 26 2013 09:05 KingofGods wrote:
Despite the "defenders advantage" I feel like the aggressor has the advantage in TvT. You absolutely need to be sieged up regardless of whether you are playing bio or mech and at any point they can use the mobility of medivacs to circumvent wherever you are defending. If you try to defend possible drop locations with a portion of your forces you won't have enough to defend the front.
Anyone else feel the same way?
Because supply counts in TvT are so erratic, the best way to tell which player has the advantage is how many bases are behind their siege line. TvT doesn't have attacks so much as a push to hold a specific area, and whoever holds the most area is ahead. Instead of deciding to go attack with all your army on the natural, you think more about securing the area in front of the natural so then you can kill it. So yeah, whoever is furthest forward on the map has the advantage unless their army is considerably smaller.
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What is a good mix of add ons for your barracks in TvZ assuming they are playing muta ling bling?
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Most pros have all reactors with the exception of the initial tech lab upgrading stim and combat shield until they get their forth up then they will add 3-4 more tech labbed raxes because that is about the time when the zerg will be transitioning into ultras. If you watch Bombers games in the recent WCS finals for example, his standard production cycle is 15 marines (7 raxes with reactor, 1 with tech lab), 3 widow mines (2 factories, 1 with tech lab and 1 with reactors) and 2 medivacs (1 reactored starport)
Personally I like to sprinkle in some marauders because when you split, the banes will always go after marauders (which is advantageous for you)
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On August 26 2013 09:31 A Wild Sosd wrote:
What is a good mix of add ons for your barracks in TvZ assuming they are playing muta ling bling?
as the other guy said, 8 raxx is standard. 4 reactors, 1 techlab, and the other 3 naked while zerg is on lair. keep dick on his hive timing then throw down 3 extra techlabs before his ultra switch. personally I like getting an extra techlab as soon as raxx 6-8 are done. so that's x2 marauder x10 marine production. the extra marauder with concussive shells really helps me split vs speedbanes and something to tank friendly widow mine damage
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On August 26 2013 10:07 KingofGods wrote:
Most pros have all reactors with the exception of the initial tech lab upgrading stim and combat shield until they get their forth up then they will add 3-4 more tech labbed raxes because that is about the time when the zerg will be transitioning into ultras. If you watch Bombers games in the recent WCS finals for example, his standard production cycle is 15 marines (7 raxes with reactor, 1 with tech lab), 3 widow mines (2 factories, 1 with tech lab and 1 with reactors) and 2 medivacs (1 reactored starport)
Personally I like to sprinkle in some marauders because when you split, the banes will always go after marauders (which is advantageous for you)
If you watch Bomber play, he also has a lot of naked barracks after 5 or 6 or so, that produce marines until they need to add on tech labs for ultras. So he usually has maybe 5 reactored rax, 1 techlabbed, and 3-4 more naked barracks.
Slightly related: in Bomber's TvZ games he generally went for standard reactor hellion --> 3CC play, but added on 3 tanks with the factory after swapping it off the reactor, and then began widow mine production, not in time to really help with the initial 2/2 push but there in time to help with the reinforcement. He also usually turtled almost utterly until 2/2 was done around 14:30, except for maybe 1 singular drop. What are the advantages/disadvantages of this style as opposed to the more standard style of no siege tanks, and light (hopefully) noncommittal pressure from 1/1 to 2/2, when most terrans pile on the pressure and try to break the 4th.
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On August 26 2013 04:24 vaderseven wrote:
1 rax fe is not a good build unless you mean with gas for a reaper or reactor. cc first and 1 gas 1 rax are good.
I do always get gas at 14/15. So it's Rax, Gas, CC, Supply, Bunker. Just hard to hold and I wonder if it is worth it. I never get the reaper. I tried that and doing the micro for scouting just always made me me scvs or drop buildings late. So for now I skip it and concentrate on my side of the map. Get 2 to 4 marines and then get the reactor.
Still bad? Seems like once you put the reactor on you aren't making anything for so long that the other guys are racing ahead and just rush me.
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On August 26 2013 12:24 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 09:31 A Wild Sosd wrote:
What is a good mix of add ons for your barracks in TvZ assuming they are playing muta ling bling? as the other guy said, 8 raxx is standard. 4 reactors, 1 techlab, and the other 3 naked while zerg is on lair. keep dick on his hive timing then throw down 3 extra techlabs before his ultra switch. personally I like getting an extra techlab as soon as raxx 6-8 are done. so that's x2 marauder x10 marine production. the extra marauder with concussive shells really helps me split vs speedbanes and something to tank friendly widow mine damage
Ooooooooh just keep the rax naked. I mean sometimes I do do this, but usually I just blindly make the techlabs befopre I need them.
I made the mistake of going up to 7 reactors 1tl really fast once, I killed his 3rd while he was taking his fourth, and tried to hold area and push with mine marine, but then like 10 ultras came out. Eventually he pushed me to my nat, and I couldn't make enough marauders in time, and I just rolled over and died
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It's painful when you destroy zerg's bases but then ultras get into your production facilities and you can't reproduce even with 4k 2k in the bank. I know the answer is to "trade more". But, I mean, you can't just throw your army into banelings just so you can free up supply and reproduce on the same stuff. I dislike being punished because my units aren't dying fast enough lol.
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On August 26 2013 16:03 KingofGods wrote:
It's painful when you destroy zerg's bases but then ultras get into your production facilities and you can't reproduce even with 4k 2k in the bank. I know the answer is to "trade more". But, I mean, you can't just throw your army into banelings just so you can free up supply and reproduce on the same stuff. I dislike being punished because my units aren't dying fast enough lol.
lately ive been experimenting with building a planetary near the choke between my natural and third (after im maxed and starting to bank). This way when I lose my army i have a defensive position to fall back on. I also have some extra production facilities there, forming a semi-wall to protect the planetary.
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On August 26 2013 16:03 KingofGods wrote:
It's painful when you destroy zerg's bases but then ultras get into your production facilities and you can't reproduce even with 4k 2k in the bank. I know the answer is to "trade more". But, I mean, you can't just throw your army into banelings just so you can free up supply and reproduce on the same stuff. I dislike being punished because my units aren't dying fast enough lol.
This is seriously the most annoying thing with playing terran. I've lost so many games because Ive let the opponent win an engagement too close to my base. Protoss obviously dont have this problem, and zerg gets their reinforcement from many different places across the map (which of course has its disadvantages at times but seldom will lose you the game straight up).
Extremely annoying.
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On August 26 2013 07:41 terranimbastimamove wrote:
Hi everyone high masters NA here having some problems with TvT Mech vs mech. I used to play mech quite a lot in WoL but since HoTs came out all I've been playing is tank marine and bio. It seems to me that upgrades don't matter as much as having a lot of siege tanks and positioning.
For example you can have the upgrade lead but if you don't have good positioning or your opponent does something sneaky and out positions you your upgrades really don't matter. What I want to know is a good solid mindset to have in mech vs mech rather than rush 3 orbital double armory and just camp until maxed and then camp some more until someone makes a mistake.
When is it safe in the game to start teching to sky terran, and what parts of sky terran should you focus on first? I was purely making BC viking and it seems like seeker missles >.When I make ravens sometimes I make too many and then get rolled by thor/widow mine/viking.
Any tips or insight would be greatly appreciated.
You usually get the gut feeling when you can transition into sky terran. This often occurs when the game have stabilized and you are on at least 4 bases. I would say that sky terran works the same way as a huge siege line. Try to create a contain with BC/Viking and a few ravens but also build missile turrets with range upgrade under your sky army. The turrets helps a lot against his sky fleet but also works as detection against those mines.
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Yeah, if you watch Polt and Taeja's series from WCS America I think you can see the sort of PF/turret crawl they began in preparation for going sky.
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On August 26 2013 16:03 KingofGods wrote:
It's painful when you destroy zerg's bases but then ultras get into your production facilities and you can't reproduce even with 4k 2k in the bank. I know the answer is to "trade more". But, I mean, you can't just throw your army into banelings just so you can free up supply and reproduce on the same stuff. I dislike being punished because my units aren't dying fast enough lol.
Trade mineral heavy marines for gas heavy banes/mutas. Watch the Zerg try to go Hive while spending thousands of gas per minute on units. Profit.
If you have 4k Minerals in the bank then he should have a large gas bank to spend on Hive tech.
Deny him that ability.
4M vs Muta/Ling/Bling is not about killing bases. Its about limiting the gas of a Zerg so the he can only spend it on units to stay alive. When you get that +3/+3 upgrades he should either not have a Hive or just have finished the Hive and have no gas bank.
+3/+3 Marines shred all of lair tech and he will be trying to invest a shit ton of gas into Hive tech at the same time. Its a double bonus. He has less gas to spend on the critical banes/mutas at the same time you have stronger marines.
Or you be punished because your units weren't dieing fast enough and the Zerg was able to bank gas behind a single wave of Lair tech gas units.
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How do you practice your builds? Get better at builds? I currently either start up a custom game against the ai on super easy and just go for it. But this isn't a great way either, because I don't scout because I know they won't have anything and most of the time I just focus on buildings and forget about making marines? Is there a better way to practice?
An a separate topic, does anyone have the replays from WCS. I want to try to learn the 3 bunker build Bomber did. Because of his win I am going to try to stick with Terran. I lose out to Protoss so much that I was thinking of jumping ship.
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Ok I looked at the replay. You did hold that proxy pretty well but there is a really cool way of holding a proxy 2 gate. Just let those gates finish, wall in and lift your main to your natural and have some SCVs repairing your wall from the outsite and it's pretty much gg right there 
However, after you held that push you did go for a counter which I like but when you see that there is no expo down I don't think you have to try kill him right now. Scout for a hidden base and back home to secure your own natural instead, you are already ahead at this point.
At 14:00 you can actually stim and kill his army or at least kill his natural but you w8 a little too long before attacking but at least you killed his third. At this point you would have been far ahead if you would have built your third at your natural instead of at your third (it wouldn't have been denied in this case). Your drop did a sick amount of damage at the same time but unfortunately you forgot about this medivac for the rest of the game :/
You took an unnecessary engagement at 17:30 where you lost all the vikings for nothing but you denied his third again shortly after. At this point I think you should focus on saturating your third and build a 4th base.
At 22:00 a base race starts and unfortunately you lose :/
I think that the right decision here would be to deny his natural, third and fourth and then back home to defend. Fly your third to safety and gather as many units as you can in your main and let him destroy your natural while you are backing home to sandwich him. Also when you are gonna engage him in the end, lower all depots and lift all the building so he can't forcefield you that easily.
GL in the future
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On August 26 2013 07:52 wag_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 05:15 KingofGods wrote:
In Bomber vs. Taeja when he went gas first he went 12 gas. Is that standard? I've always went 11 gas. 11 gas is a little bit pointless since you have 100gas but your rax isn't finished yet + you cut scv production. 12gas 13rax is better.
11gas is better if you plan on going reactor without marine (i.e. gas first reactor hellion or gas first into reactor rax marine / hellion / medivac push), otherwise rallying your 11th SCV will get you to the same spot just as fast with a slightly better economy.
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On August 27 2013 05:10 mygodsnameiskyle wrote:
How do you practice your builds? Get better at builds? I currently either start up a custom game against the ai on super easy and just go for it. But this isn't a great way either, because I don't scout because I know they won't have anything and most of the time I just focus on buildings and forget about making marines? Is there a better way to practice?
An a separate topic, does anyone have the replays from WCS. I want to try to learn the 3 bunker build Bomber did. Because of his win I am going to try to stick with Terran. I lose out to Protoss so much that I was thinking of jumping ship.
I personally looked at proffessional builds, wrote them down on a sticky paper, attached it onto my monitor, practiced them A LOT vs very easy AI, first not microing my units and just focusing on macro, later adding in multitasking. The more builds you practice, the easier/faster the process takes.  Don't forget to look at the benchmarks of pros doing the same builds
Of course, start at 1 build/matchup and train your mechanics with these, there's no point in knowing 50 builds but having really bad mechanics so you don't actually hit the benchmarks of the builds ^^
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EPT
