EPT[G] An Overview of the Zerg Match-ups - Page 3
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syriuszonito
Poland332 Posts
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Glon
United States569 Posts
On March 05 2013 06:41 syriuszonito wrote: Didnt read it all but looks really solid. One thing I would disagree is defense agains 9/10pools with 14p (isnt 15p/16h standard btw?). If you make your queen first and then lings you can actually get the queen in time to save the hatchery without the need to pull any drones This does NOT work on the pro level. EVERY pro does NOT go queen first (unless for some reason they didn't scout it). And, generally, it's either 14p/15h OR 15p/15h. You don't take a hatch on 16. Read it  | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
On March 03 2013 03:03 Glon wrote: Versus a mutalisk player (you are not going for mutalisks), your goal should be to establish a third base and get infestors onto the field. Typically, as soon as the infestor player scouts the spire, he/she will place two spores at his third, one at his main and natural, and another between his natural and third. Keep in mind that, after getting 5-6 infestors, the infestor player must wait until he gets up hydralisks in order to push out across the maps (because mutalisks can split up to avoid being fungaled en mass), so remember not to put out across the map too early. In the mean time, prepare to defend yourself against zergling/mutalisk harass. I asked the question on the Q/A Pro thread, but didnt get any answer. So I try there (i feel like the Q/A pro thread is more designed for hots questions anyway) I dont have huge problem defending mulalisks. The biggest problem I see is that my opponent usually deny all map control i could have until i have infestors + hydralisks. But when I go out, my opponent generally already has a saturated 4th, and his production facilities just overwhelm me. If i try to go out before, with less hydras/infestors, it's runby everywhere, or lose everything to mutalisks + zerglings surround. Sometimes, my opponents just outgreed me. Taking a fast 4th without even building any spines. But as I can go out of my base, I don't know that I could kill him right now... I dont want to play mutalisks in ZvZ, so I wonder, what is the best way to deal with this situation. Stuck on 3 base, no map control... It will be even harder in HOTS so I need to fix it at least on WoL I guess. ^^ Mid master zerg EU here. | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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theonlyshaft
United States581 Posts
 <3 | ||
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Glon
United States569 Posts
On March 05 2013 17:03 Insoleet wrote: I asked the question on the Q/A Pro thread, but didnt get any answer. So I try there (i feel like the Q/A pro thread is more designed for hots questions anyway) I dont have huge problem defending mulalisks. The biggest problem I see is that my opponent usually deny all map control i could have until i have infestors + hydralisks. But when I go out, my opponent generally already has a saturated 4th, and his production facilities just overwhelm me. If i try to go out before, with less hydras/infestors, it's runby everywhere, or lose everything to mutalisks + zerglings surround. Sometimes, my opponents just outgreed me. Taking a fast 4th without even building any spines. But as I can go out of my base, I don't know that I could kill him right now... I dont want to play mutalisks in ZvZ, so I wonder, what is the best way to deal with this situation. Stuck on 3 base, no map control... It will be even harder in HOTS so I need to fix it at least on WoL I guess. ^^ Mid master zerg EU here. In HotS, it's really, REALLY hard to not go muta versus a muta player if you don't have a third up and established. Generally, the non-muta going player MUST rely on pure infestor/ling/spores for his defense. Rewatch the GSTL match between Leenock and Violet - here, Violet does and excellent job harassing with infestors while relying on only zerglings/infestors/spore colonies for defesnse at home. Later, once Violet has a 3 base economy more or less established, he adds on Hydralisks and a roach warren. All in all, it's still very difficult to NOT go mutalisk in HotS. However, do remember that it IS possible on maps where the third is not far away from your natural (meaning that it is easier for you to get defense/creep spread over there). On maps where the third is far away from your natural, you're much better off either just going for mutalisks yourself OR all inning. Hope it helped. | ||
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Yoinhell
Canada49 Posts
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FoShao
United States256 Posts
on topic, this is a nice overview | ||
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syriuszonito
Poland332 Posts
On March 05 2013 12:27 Glon wrote: This does NOT work on the pro level. EVERY pro does NOT go queen first (unless for some reason they didn't scout it). And, generally, it's either 14p/15h OR 15p/15h. You don't take a hatch on 16. Read it Hm its really common to build a pool on 15 and make 2 drones then hatch but not wanna argue about it. About the queen first then lings - I DONT know if it works on pro lvl or not but I am pretty sure that none of pro lvl players will read this guide and on lower lvl it DOES work and it gives you are a better economy obviously as you DONT have to pull drones and you DO get the queen faster. | ||
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crbox
Canada1181 Posts
On March 05 2013 12:27 Glon wrote: This does NOT work on the pro level. EVERY pro does NOT go queen first (unless for some reason they didn't scout it). And, generally, it's either 14p/15h OR 15p/15h. You don't take a hatch on 16. Read it its either 15/15 or 15/16 not 14/15 lol 16 hatch after 15p is pretty common edit: 14/15 is more common in zvp if you expect your opponent to be cheesy and canon rush. | ||
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Glon
United States569 Posts
On March 07 2013 02:25 crbox wrote: its either 15/15 or 15/16 not 14/15 lol 16 hatch after 15p is pretty common edit: 14/15 is more common in zvp if you expect your opponent to be cheesy and canon rush. Really? I 14p/15h ~ half my games in ZvZ. Allows for ~5 second faster lings when vs a 10 p. And in response to the guy who said queen first: This guide is meant to propel people to a very high level. Obviously it does not cover more than a hair over the essentials, but the principles will remain true no matter what level you are. Therefore, I choose to give strategies that work on the highest level (and also at any) so that people can trust that the guide is universal. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On March 07 2013 07:20 Glon wrote: Really? I 14p/15h ~ half my games in ZvZ. Allows for ~5 second faster lings when vs a 10 p. And in response to the guy who said queen first: This guide is meant to propel people to a very high level. Obviously it does not cover more than a hair over the essentials, but the principles will remain true no matter what level you are. Therefore, I choose to give strategies that work on the highest level (and also at any) so that people can trust that the guide is universal. Just wanted to throw in yeah 15 pool 16 hatch is common I do it, I see pros like idra do it all the time in zvz/zvp. I rarely see 14 pool 15 hatch. | ||
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achristes
Norway653 Posts
On March 05 2013 05:10 Glon wrote: 14 gas/14 pool is NOT considered standard in either matchup. In ZvP, it's a coin-flip all in that will put you behind if you try to macro out of it. In ZvZ, if you're looking to go for speed/bane pressure, either a 10 pool/10 gas OR a 14 pool /15 gas /hatchery is much more standard. 14/14 has lost it's place as a conventional build order. I don't agree about the 14/14 in ZvZ. I use it to pressure greedy openings such as 15 hatch, and if they went completely overboard (hatch, gas, pool) then the hatchery is going down 100% of the time putting me waay ahead. If they don't go hatch first it can still be used for general harass (killing drones, lings, queens) and you can easily morph 1-2 banelings if you think you can break him. As an allin 14/14 is outdated, but as a general pressure build it's excellent IMO. (Or maybe I am being old fashioned and refuse to believe that there exists better builds for this...) | ||
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IceBergZ
Malaysia176 Posts
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Glon
United States569 Posts
On March 07 2013 19:05 achristes wrote: I don't agree about the 14/14 in ZvZ. I use it to pressure greedy openings such as 15 hatch, and if they went completely overboard (hatch, gas, pool) then the hatchery is going down 100% of the time putting me waay ahead. If they don't go hatch first it can still be used for general harass (killing drones, lings, queens) and you can easily morph 1-2 banelings if you think you can break him. As an allin 14/14 is outdated, but as a general pressure build it's excellent IMO. (Or maybe I am being old fashioned and refuse to believe that there exists better builds for this...) Again, I have built a guide that can build up a player to the semi-professional level (or damn well near it). You don't see pros go 14/14 on any regular basis - and I don't even think at all since 14 pool / 15 gas / 15 hatch is much more popular for coinflip all ins. If it works for you - great! But it won't work consisantly on higher levels, what this is supposed to entail | ||
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Glon
United States569 Posts
On March 07 2013 22:16 IceBergZ wrote: any pdf for this so I can print I can work on that for you | ||
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Glon
United States569 Posts
On March 07 2013 22:16 IceBergZ wrote: any pdf for this so I can print Ok just checked- converting it to a PDF would take A LOT of manual work, so it's a no sorry. I would suggest printing from TL (I would just take screenshots and print from there) | ||
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Crushgroove
United States793 Posts
Edit: Converting to PDF would be easy peasy.... I can do it if you want. | ||
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Glon
United States569 Posts
On March 09 2013 01:20 Crushgroove wrote: Amazing and valuable contribution, Job well done. Kudos. Edit: Converting to PDF would be easy peasy.... I can do it if you want. No, it isn't - you have to change scripts/other stuff. The TvZ guide took the TL Editors 3 days of manual work to convert it - not going to ask them to change this one to PDF. Just print from here, sorry ;( | ||
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DawN883
Sweden558 Posts
"Perhaps one of the most common strategies used for aggression in the mid game is the combination of helions and banshees to harass the Zerg while the Zerg is still trying to establish an economy and teching up to lair. If the Zerg player chooses to go for a 2 base tech build, defending helion banshee play shouldn't be a problem - the Zerg will have speed lings out and lair tech soon to come in order to defend the helions. However, in general, whenever you see a helion/banshee composition come out: 1 spore per base (yes, even the main) 1 spore between your natural and your third (helps when jumping between bases) I prefer to get 1 spine at my third (Helps if you under make zerglings, ect) Make ~16 zerglings and 1-2 extra queens Position zerglings to stop helions from entering your natural or third - They're there to prevent runby's, not to chase helions. Basically, the goal is to defend without losing drones until either the Terran loses his units in a mistake or until lair tech is out. Remember to split any zerglings - if the Terran player dives with his helions, split the zerglings, pull the drones back, and move the queens/zerglings in. Queens should be focusing down banshees - they are the most dangerous units - while zerglings take care of helions. Most player's prefer to not get up roaches unless facing multiple factories, which requires that you not get caught out of position, and not chase helions off of creep." You should maybe add that simcity with evolution chambers can really put a dent in a lot of hellion aggresion. As terran I can say that too many times zerg players (even master zergs sometimes!) skips building two evolution chambers to make chokepoints and just focuses on massing lings, which sometimes just get roasted. | ||
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