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[G] An Overview of the Zerg Match-ups

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Glon
Profile Joined December 2010
United States569 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-04 20:08:47
March 02 2013 18:03 GMT
#1
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    1.0      Zerg versus Terran .........................................................................................................................................................................
      1.1      Defending the Two Barracks Play ..................................................................................................................
      1.2      Defending Hellion/Banshee Agression ..........................................................................................................
      1.3      The Standard Macro Game ..............................................................................................................................
      1.4      The Late Game ....................................................................................................................................................
      1.5      Creep Spread .......................................................................................................................................................
      1.6      VODs ......................................................................................................................................................................
    2.0      Zerg versus Zerg ............................................................................................................................................................................
      2.1      Opening 1: Fast Spawning Pool ....................................................................................................................
      2.2       Opening 2: Standard 14 Pool .........................................................................................................................
      2.3      Hatchery First ......................................................................................................................................................
      2.4      The Mid Game .....................................................................................................................................................
      2.5      Composition Counters/Fights ..........................................................................................................................
      2.6      Creep Spread .......................................................................................................................................................
      2.7      VODs ......................................................................................................................................................................
    3.0      Zerg versus Protoss .....................................................................................................................................................................
      3.1      The Macro Game .................................................................................................................................................
      3.2      The Late Game Engagement ...........................................................................................................................
      3.3      Creep Spread ........................................................................................................................................................
      3.4      VODs .......................................................................................................................................................................

Preface
    This guide is meant to be accessable to all levels of players. Whether you're a bronze zerg trying to gain a better understanding of the game or a masters level player looking to polish and standardize your play, this guide will improve your skill and understanding of the game. Keep in mind that there are only general, or *standard*, strategies discussed in this guide, and that it is impossible to discuss every aspect of Starcraft II. Give it a read, improve your play, and good luck!

Zerg versus Terran Top
    In Zerg vs Terran, overlord placement can be tricky, map depending. However, most maps allow players to move their first 2 overlords out across the map to helpful positions. For more information, we would suggest watching some player's stream for overlord placement hints.

The Basics
    Almost all builds in Zerg Versus Terran start off with a 15 hatchery. To deal with 2 barracks play, it is heavily suggested to scout on 15 supply with a drone. Both drones are generally from your main mineral line at the same time, one building the hatchery at your natural and the other moving across the map to scout your opponent. Alternatively, some players opt to go for a earlier scout, sent as early as 12 supply, because they feel insecure holding off 2 barracks play. Each player should make their own choice for each map, depending on how confident they are on holding off this early cheese.

    The Basic Build
    • 15 hatchery
    • 16 spawning pool
    • 2 queens when pool finishes

      If you would like to tech
    • 17-21 gas
    • Speed @ 100
    • At Next 150 gas, 2 evolution chambers
    • Start 1/1. Get rest of gasses, expand.

      If you would like to take a fast third
    • 2 more queens (queen 3/4). Move initial 2 queens after inject to front of natural to begin creep spread (Queen 3/4 will be injecting)
    • Take third immediately when minerals available (should be ~ when Queen 3/4 are at 50-75% complete)
    • Take 2 gasses at same time as taking third (do not delay)
    • Generally, players gas progression is: Ling Speed, 1/1, start lair (2 more gasses), lair finishes (last 2 gasses)

    I did not bother to put in exact supply counts since your build order will depend on what your opponent does. If you have to build more lings, delay these timings in order to get out more drones and not be mineral starved.

Defending the Two Barracks Play
    The very first thing any Zerg must do is identify that it is a 2 barracks play. With the 15 scout, move into the opponents main base:

    • If you see 1 barracks building at the top of your opponent's ramp, it's usually not a 2 barracks play (but still could be). Generally, the terran will take his natural expansion at the 3:08 mark - if this is not seen, start getting suspicious. Send a drone to the watchtower, just to check. Another clear giveaway is if the Terran sends more than 1 SCV to "scout." If so, you're probably being 2 barracks rushed.
    • If you see 2 barracks building, you've identified the build.
    • If you see no barracks building (and no gas), keep in mind that your opponent can be doing 1 of 3 things: proxy 2 barracks, proxy 1 barracks to pressure, and finally command center first. The proper thing to do here is to search with both your scouting drone and 1 drone from your main for barracks play - if you can't find any quickly in the most likely spots - move one of your drones to a watchtower or a position in front of your base where you can see pressure coming.

    OK, so now we you've identified the 2 barracks play. Great - good for you - you should be ok. Keep 1 drone in front of your natural, checking for bunkers. Keep in mind that Zerg player's don't want to over pull drones - and should mine as much money as possible before sending all of their drones to defend. When you see the first bunker building, pull ~5 drones. 2 bunker rushes generally happen in stages:

    Stage 1
    2/3 SCV + 1 marine versus ~ 6/7 drones. This is the initial poke by Terran, aimed at getting up an initial bunker (if this bunker goes up, chances are the game is lost). Here, the goal is to stick 2 drones on his marine, the rest killing SCVs. Ideally, the goal should also be to kill the building bunker, however, if you can't, stay calm and proceed to stage 2.

    Stage 2
    Multiple SCVs (depends how many Terran pulls) + 4/6 marines versus everything. For this push, pull all but 2 drones from your main to the natural. Immediately when your hatchery finishes, build a spine crawler at the back of the base, so the Terran player cannot snipe it before it becomes useful. If there is enough money, build a queen at your natural (depends on if you panicked in Stage 1 and over pulled drones + your drone micro in Stage 1 - how well did you pull hurt drones back?) Otherwise, pump out zerglings and wait for your Terran friend to overextend. Generally, there is a timing when you have 8-10 zerglings (+ all of your drones) and the bunker is not done for the Terran player yet that you may choose to use and try to break the terran player - you judge whether your micro is good enough compared to your opponents to see if it is possible exploit this timing. If able to manage to clean up the bunker/SCVs, forcing the marines back, this is a winning position for the game, and move down to stage 4. Otherwise, your goal is to defend your spine crawler and get it into position, continually making zerglings.

    Stage 3
    This is the runbye stage. Generally, players try to run 8 lings by their opponents bunker in order to pick off or stop the Terran from reinforcing. Try to pick a path around the bunker that gives the least amount of hits to the Terran. This tactic is then transitioned into a 'crunch' manuever, where you now have ~6 lings on the other side of his bunker, and are able to pull everything in a more effective way to kill the bunker, ect. Try to engage when your hatchery is at ~400 health -- you don't want to engage too soon, because that would mean losing out on a potentially larger force. However, keep in mind that your opponent may choose to just focus your hatchery when you engage - so you want some amount of breathing room to clear out his forces.

    Stage 4
    Assuming that you aren't dead, the bunker rush has now been held off. Even if you have lost 5-6 drones, remember that you have also killed an equivalent amount of SCVs from the Terran player - plus you have had more mining time and more bases are established! The most important thing to do here is to scout whether he is expanding, getting gas for a cheeky follow up all-in, or is throwing down 2 more barracks for a follow up all-in play. Generally, simply scouting whether or not your opponent has gotten another command center is most important - if he has, play normally (but keep in mind that your opponent will be able to poke with ~12 marines in a couple of minutes) with a huge advantage. If he hasn't, throw down spines (but keep droning), maybe get an extra queen or 2. Defend the all in (this should be relatively easy once you spot the lack of command center), and you've won the game.

Defending Helion/Banshee Aggression
    Perhaps one of the most common strategies used for aggression in the mid game is the combination of helions and banshees to harass the Zerg while the Zerg is still trying to establish an economy and teching up to lair. If the Zerg player chooses to go for a 2 base tech build, defending helion banshee play shouldn't be a problem - the Zerg will have speed lings out and lair tech soon to come in order to defend the helions. However, in general, whenever you see a helion/banshee composition come out:

    • 1 spore per base (yes, even the main)
    • 1 spore between your natural and your third (helps when jumping between bases)
    • I prefer to get 1 spine at my third (Helps if you under make zerglings, ect)
    • Make ~16 zerglings and 1-2 extra queens

    Position zerglings to stop helions from entering your natural or third - They're there to prevent runby's, not to chase helions. Basically, the goal is to defend without losing drones until either the Terran loses his units in a mistake or until lair tech is out. Remember to split any zerglings - if the Terran player dives with his helions, split the zerglings, pull the drones back, and move the queens/zerglings in. Queens should be focusing down banshees - they are the most dangerous units - while zerglings take care of helions. Most player's prefer to not get up roaches unless facing multiple factories, which requires that you not get caught out of position, and not chase helions off of creep.

The Standard Macro Game
    We will add all in builds at a later time, however for now let's just look at the standard macro game. Options for the zerg range from what we have discussed above, however here we're going to go more in depth into the strategy of such compositions. Let it be known right now - we will not be discussing roach/hydra play: it very rarely works if both players are of equal skill level and at relatively equal economic/army situations, period. So, for now, let's focus on what compositions Zerg can have in the mid game: Infestor ling or mutalisk/baneling/zergling. We will leave out roaches for now - however note that many players get at least a few roaches to help versus early game helions and to supplement their mid game army.

    The Mutalisk mid game
    Generally, this style is filled with harassment, multitasking, and counter attacks. As the mutalisk player, you would rather cut off an army in the middle of the map, wait to macro up a lot more units, then crush it. Drops shouldn't be too much of a problem, and can be swatted aside easily. In engagements, target groups of banelings at marines and mutalisks to focus down tanks (or, if it's a mech composition, stick to the counter attacks until you have teched to brood lords). In general, the goal should be to overwhelm, and capitalize on any terran mistake or opening that allows you to swoop in and kill a base/get an excellent engagement.

    The Infestor Mid Game
    This style requires the Zerg player to be very conscious of positioning. Being caught out of position just once can cost the Zerg player the game - resulting in one/two lost bases or several infestors lost. Remember that while infestors are strong, they rely on being pocketed in a safe place out of enemy fire. Remember as well, when using an infestor based composition, your goal should be cost efficiency, not necessarily overwhelming your opponent with units but having good trades with him that allow you to pull ahead after each engagement. Also keep in mind that it is usually not good to fall into the "infested terran trap." Be careful not to blow all of your infestor energy on infested terrans - generally, this will be for a kill move at an opponent's base where he cannot simply retreat and wait for the infested terrans to time out (because his base would die). Also, keep in mind that fungals can be very powerful, even against mech compositions. If you can take engagements slowly, doing as much damage with fungal as possible before the fight even happens, you will be much more successful.

The Late Game
    Currently, we would like to dissuade you from going for an ultralisk composition and sticking to it. While it can be very effective to go for ultralisks, then switch to brood lords, it is usually not effective to stick to ultralisks as the game goes later and later (unless you have a big lead, then it really doesn't matter what you do). Therefore, we will now go over what composition your late game army should look like:

    • 6-8 brood lords
    • ~10 infestors
    • 6-8 queens
    • Rest Corrupter/ling

    Keep in mind that a Zerg doesn't need as many brood lords in ZvT as in ZvP. The main threat to the brood lords are vikings, and tank splash combined with fungal takes care of marines easily (the marines will be held back, not able to get to the brood lords like stalkers can). Be sure not to be caught out of position, as this is how most players will lose their games. The other major threat is drop play - make sure to have 10-15 lings and 2-4 banelings supplemented by spines and spores at each of the outlying bases, but be careful to watch for dropships that run past these defenses to an inner base that may not be as well protected (spores and maybe leaving 1 infestor can take care of this). Other than that - focus your fungals on clumps of units, be careful not to waste all of your energy on infested terrans, and don't rush into anything you're unsure about - take the late game slow. Happy hunting

Creep Spread
    In ZvT, creep spread defines how well the matchup is going for the Zerg player. If creep is covering the map like a carpet, the Zerg player is 99% of the time dominating the game and is in good position to take it. If creep spread is constricted to just the pocket of the Zerg territory connecting the natural/third, then the Zerg player is likely in a bad spot and will have a very difficult time continuing the game into the later stages. Therefore, creep spread is a much higher priority here than in either of the other matchups. Make sure to pay attention to creep tumors and spread them as much as possible - the benefits of a great creep spread greatly enhances the chances of a Zerg player to win the game.

VODs
    [image loading] MarineKing vs. RorO on Cloud Kingdom from GSL 2013 Season 1. Bunker-rush from MarineKing with a great hold from RorO, into a beautiful roach/baneling all-in.

    [image loading] Ryung vs. Losira on Neo Planet S from GSL 2013 Season 1. Standard macro game with ultralisks, ling/baneling and infestors. Highlights good anti-drop management.

    [image loading] Leenock vs. GanZi on Whirlwind from Iron Squid Chapter II. Standard macro game with ultralisks and ling/baneling. The Terran played bio/medivac really marine heavy.


Zerg versus Zerg Top
    Before we even start discussing build orders: your first three Overlords must be sent across the map. This is one of the most important keys to playing ZvZ successfully, and it is essential to learn to do this automatically. In most cases, the first overlord should head towards your opponent's natural, the next one to your opponent's third (or some place near it that gives you as much vision as possible), and the third one to the middle of the map. Future overlords can be placed at your own discretion, but it may be a good choice to leave them near your base to avoid being picked off.

    There are 3 basic openers that can be done in the ZvZ matchup: these openers are fast pool (6,7,8,10,11), standard pool into expand, and hatchery first. There will be a outline for each standard opener mentioned which you can see below, followed by general strategy tips for each opener.

Opening 1: Fast Spawning Pool
    Opening with a 6 or 7 spawning pool is strongly discouraged, and while these two builds can work, they are as all-in as you can get with the lack of possible follow-ups availabe afterwards. Opening with a 10 or 11 spawning pool on the other hand is strongly encouraged.

    Build Order
    • 10 overlord
    • 11 drone
    • 11 spawning pool
    • 14 queen/6 lings

    At this point there are a few choices to be made. You can take one of your gases (like Life does, plan on aggression, usually all in) OR you can take the natural expansion.

    The next step is to harass with the first set of 6 lings. When these lings get to your opponents base, here are the courses of action that should be taken:
    If your opponent opened with a 14 pool, start focusing down his hatchery at the natural expansion. The point here is to either force a cancel on the natural's hatchery, or to kill drones if they are pulled in order to defend the building hatchery. Remember that you're looking to cause economic damage here to either help when you all in later (if you took speed) or to get ahead by taking a your own expansion.

    Follow-ups: The Trivial
    After the harassment has been done, it is time pull back to your natural. Generally, it is a good idea to get a spine - remember that your opponent will have more larva, and potentially more zerglings. In order to insure your safety, two queens should be blocking your ramp, and when possible it is important to morph 1-2 banelings for defense.

    Follow-ups: Moving into the Mid Game
    As a general guideline, if the initial harassment killed more than 2 drones and/or cancelled their hatchery, you are ahead at this point. If you forced a drone pull, but only killed 1-2 drones, everything is about even. Now if there was a drone pull, and none of them were killed and his hatchery remains standing, you are unfortunately far behind.

    • If you are Ahead of your Opponent: Going for two base mutalisks is suggested here. When the player that is ahead goes for fast mutalisks, it allows him to start a snowball effect that will result in a massive supply lead. Keep in mind that as the mutalisk player, you will have far more time than normal to get your damage done before your opponent gets out infestors or mutalisks of their own (in which case you will have a free win).
    • If you are Even with your Opponent: Take your pick of strategy. There is a possibility of going for mutalisks, infestor/ling, and even roach/hydra/infestor. Segments for these will be added at a later date.
    • If you are Behind your Opponent: This is a tricky spot, and one that is not ideal to be in. One option is to go for a baneling all-in, with the hope that your opponent over-produces drones; however, this is a risky situation that relies on a critical mistake from the opponent to be successful. Going for a roach/baneling all in generally will not work - even if your opponent goes for mutalisks, they will have enough of a early lead to build defense and get their mutalisks out. The suggested option would be going for fast infestors with burrow if your opponent happens to take a fast third; you can hope for some lucky burrowed infestor harass while at the same time have a efficient defense set up with well placed fungal growths.

Opening 2: Standard 14 Pool
    This is the most standard build, and if you are looking to improve, it is the build most recommended to learn and master. The 14 pool can be used in any situation, on any map and can defend any all in (if scouted) while also having the potential to keep up with any macro build from your opponent.

    Build Order
    • 14 spawning pool
    • 15 hatchery
    • 14 drone
    • 15 queen
    • 17 overlord
    • 17 gas
    • 16 zergling

    If your opponent takes a 14 pool or 15 hatchery, use 2 early lings to scout out the opponent's base. It is preferred to take a baneling nest at 50 gas and speed on the next 100 gas mined, however you can flip the order you get these 2 buildings if you wish. Enter a standard mid game!

    If your opponent chooses to go for an aggressive spawning pool, there are several different deviations that you must memorize and react to depending on what you see; however, it is always standard to stop mining gas and/or cancel your extractor if possible, you'll need all the minerals you can get to defend and then recover to a favorable position.

    Situations
    If your Opponent pulls Drones with his Zerglings
    The natural hatchery must be cancelled. Generally, the goal here is simply to stall until you are able to get a sizable number of zerglings/queens/spine crawlers. Be sure to also cancel any spine crawlers being built before your opponent's lings/drones get to your base - any delay helps! When your opponent's lings/drones enter your base, mineral walk your drones to your natural mineral patch, build a queen, and build lings. Try to sneak 1 of your drones behind your mineral line before hand to build a spine crawler. As a general rule, when your queen pops you can fight your opponent. You will have 8-10 zerglings, and more drones. Continue to rally zerglings and micro as best as possible (pull back lings/drones, ect). Keep in mind that it is ideal to engage when all of your minerals are spent - you will have as many units as possible at this point.

    If your Opponent Does not pull Drones with his Zerglings
    The goal of the opponent here is to cancel your natural hatchery. Once you see your opponent's zerglings crossing the map with your first overlord, immediately build an overlord and pump out lings as larva permits. Grab a queen after building your initial 4 lings. Generally, you will want to pull 4 drones with your initial 4 zerglings (2 drones for each extra ling your opponent has over you). Continue to build lings if your opponent does - your opponent should take a hatchery, however if he does not, block your ramp with 2 queens and grab a spine crawler (you will scout this with your first overlord). Be careful to not lose drones - if you don't lose any, you will be far ahead and in a winning position. See above for what to do if ahead/behind your opponent.

Opening 3: Hatchery First
    Generally, this play relies on a larger map or the player having excellent micro skills to hold off early aggression. Realize that going for a hatchery first puts you in a vulnerable position to several all in plays - however, the early economic boost is always welcome.

    Build Order
    • 15 hatchery
    • 16 spawning pool
    • 17 gas

    When the spawning pool finishes, grab 2 queens. Again, it is preferred to grab a baneling nest at 50 gas in order to play very safely, and then start zergling speed at 100 gas. However, this is a small touch that I may make a short write up about if anyone shows any interest (copied from Scarlett/Leenock).

    If your opponent goes for a 14 spawning pool or 15 hatchery, play standard. There will be a pick of what unit composition you would like to build towards.

    If your opponent goes for a 6-10 pool, this will put you in a tricky spot. The natural hatchery will have to be cancelled if your opponent does not pull drones (only lings), and this will result in being behind your opponent (although not so far behind that you cannot recover with a few nice plays). If your opponent chooses to pull drones, hide 2 drones behind your main mineral line (canceling your natural). Mineral walk your drones to your natural, and clog up the ramp to prevent further reinforcements. If you can stall until your queen and lings come out, you may be able to hold off and win. However, this is a tricky situation that relies on your opponent making a mistake in order for you to win the game.

The Mid Game
    Playing in the mid game in ZvZ is all about reacting to what your opponent does.
    • Versus a mutalisk player (you are not going for mutalisks), your goal should be to establish a third base and get infestors onto the field. Typically, as soon as the infestor player scouts the spire, he/she will place two spores at his third, one at his main and natural, and another between his natural and third. Keep in mind that, after getting 5-6 infestors, the infestor player must wait until he gets up hydralisks in order to push out across the maps (because mutalisks can split up to avoid being fungaled en mass), so remember not to put out across the map too early. In the mean time, prepare to defend yourself against zergling/mutalisk harass.
    • Should you choose to tech mutalisks, them in a mutalisk versus mutalisks situation, frame your strategy around harassment and timings. To begin, immediately once your spire is done start +1 armor. Take mutalisk engagements right after any upgrade finishes - An upgrade advantage in mutalisk versus mutalisk makes or breaks an engagement. The upgrade progression for your spire should be: +1 armor --> +1 attack --> +2 armor. The reason you get +1 attack before +2 is because of the drastically lower cost and lower production time. Remember to harass your opponent's bases with mutalisks - typically a player will attack with lings at one base while moving in with mutalisks at a base on the opposite side of the map.
    • To defend all ins, scouting is key. If you see your opponent saving up a lot of larva, you are being all inned. Also keep in mind that 8:30 timing - when a player can save up a large amount of roaches to move out across the map and surprise you. The best way to scout for timings such as these is to simply be active with units - if you are poking at your opponent's natural with lings, he will be forces to partially reveal his hand in order to defend. Do remember, however, that ZvZ is a volatile matchup. Sometimes, build orders will just counter others and there's not much you can do about it.
    • Extra Tip: Due to infested terran's being nerfed heavily (along with infestors), I would suggest going for 5-6 infestors and then transitioning over to hydralisks. Having a solid hydralisk base in your army will allow you to push on positions that you could otherwise not (with mass infestor and roach).

Composition Counters/Fights
    Almost all games end up in a roach/hydralisk/infestor based fight. Remember to spread your units - the player with the concave nearly always wins the game! Now that infested terrans have been nerfed so heavily, be careful throwing down all of your energy into a mass of beachballs. Generally, it is found that saving your energy for fungals is nearly always the best option unless you are desperate - The extra energy saved means that you can take another fight soon after the initial one ended. Again, just remember to split your units into an arc!

    Counter attacks in ZvZ make the game dynamic and exciting. Preparing 6 roaches to hit a base without your opponent knowing not only kills drones, but also pulls your opponent's army out of position. It is common practice to sneak some roaches or a couple of infestors around the side of the map to gain positioning over your opponent - small mineral/gas investment, huge gain on map positioning.

Creep Spread
    Creep spreading in ZvZ is tricky - spread too much creep in some situations and you end up helping your opponent more than yourself. However, don't spread enough creep and it can hinder your ability to defend attacks in the Mid/Late game. Remember that it's usually not a good idea to sacrifice a larva inject on your queen for a creep tumor unless you have an abundance of larva/little money. Usually this occurs either with your second queen (if you have gone for an early gas), or around the time you are teching to lair and taking your third. I would categorize creep spread as thus:

    • In ALL situations, spreading creep from your natural to your third, then fourth is a smart move. It helps to position your units in key situations where you have to bounce your army from your third to natural, ect. Also keep in mind that your units will move more quickly than your opponents (assuming there is no creep where he is moving his units.
    • If you are going for a mutalisk opener, I would suggest not spreading any creep past connecting your natural to third until after your initial harassment. Most players that go for a mutalisk play end up dieing to an all in from their opponent - Spreading creep in this situation only helps your opponent get to you sooner.
    • If you are going for a roach opener of any kind, creep spread is your friend. Spread as much of it as possible - not only will the extra speed help you out, but the vision granted is essential.

VODs
    [image loading] Life vs NesTea on Daybreak From GSL 2012 Season 4.

    [image loading] HyuN vs. BBoongBBoong on Abyssal City from GSL 2013 Season 1. Hatchery first (HyuN) vs. pool first (BBoongBBoong)

    [image loading] DRG vs. Leenock on Akilon Flats from Iron Squid Chapter II. Pool first into hatchery (DRG) vs. one base ling/baneling aggression (Leenock).


Zerg versus Protoss Top

The Basics
    To start, your first 2 overlords should move across the map. The first overlord needs to check your opponents natural to confirm whether he went for a gateway --> cybernetics build or a forge fast expand. This first overlord should then move into the main base, moving to a place of safety immediately if your opponent is going for a fast stalker or just hanging out near the main nexus if he did not. The second overlord should go to some place near the natural (the point is that you see the natural gasses, or can move your overlord in to see them at a specific point).

    A important thing to teach students in ZvP, would be to remember 2 timings: 6:30 and ~10:00. At 6:30, the Zerg player needs to scout the Protoss with his 2 overlords - the main overlord moving into the main to attempt to see the tech buildings the Protoss put down and the natural overlord moving into the natural to see how many gasses he took.

    If the Protoss player took only 1 gas at his natural, play like he only has 2 total gasses. The Protoss player is likely going for a fast third base or for a gateway all in.

    If the Protoss player took 2 gasses at his natural, play like he has 4 total gasses. This could be any range of possibilities - a sentry heavy three base (not common at all), double stargate, blink all-in, or the ever common immortal sentry all-in (Mavvie's guide to defend immortal sentry).

    The next timing is at ~10:00, which everyone must remember. At this timing is when most 2 base Protoss all-ins will hit. If your opponent is on 2 bases and you have 60 drones, you should only be making units (this should be at around the 8:30-9:00 for a professional, however it may be later if your macro is not spot on. That's ok -- learn what 60 drones looks like spread out across 3 bases and estimate while in game). As a general rule, do not stop making units until your opponent takes a third - yes, professionals do sometimes drone, however as a general rule continue to produce units.

    Finally, my last overarching piece of advice, is to always have a zergling behind your opponent's third base. Get in the habit of doing this - it will let you know if/when your opponent takes a third, in which case you may stop making units, and proceed into a macro game.

    Build Order
    If your opponent goes for a forge fast expand:
    • 14 spawning pool
    • 15 hatchery*
    • 14 drone
    • 15 queen
    • 17 overlord
    • 17 zergling
    • Hatchery @ third after second queen in main*

    *If your opponent pylon blocks your natural, move one drone to your third and another drone from your main to your natural (to see if the Protoss cancels his pylon or not). If the third is also pylon blocked, immediately build an overlord/queen/lings. Just be sure to spend all of the larva, and not stack up on it. Remember that your opponent is spending a significant amount of money on pylons, so it will be ok.

    If your opponent goes for a gateway --> cybernetics core:
    • 14 spawning pool
    • 15 hatchery*
    • 14 drone
    • 15 queen
    • 17 overlord
    • 17 zergling
    • 17 gas

    *In this case, if your opponent pylon blocks your natural, do not take your third. While some pros choose to take their thirds first anyways, I do not suggest it unless you are very confident in your micro/timings - one bad click and the game will be over to stalker pressure. Instead just build your queen/overlord/4-6 lings before taking your natural.

    It is utterly important to be careful of any kind of 4 gate scenarios - if your overlord (it will be your second one for 90% of maps) sees no natural expansion at the 5:30 mark, you're being 4 gated. Spine and ling up - don't be afraid to spend energy on transfuses if need be. Defend, and you will be ok (you can pull off gas after starting ling speed in this situation as well - it's all that is really needed to continue defending, and any extra gas mined is just wasted resources).

    Between the 2: Assuming that your Protoss opponent is on 2 bases you should be taking 2 gasses at the 6 minute mark. At 100 gas, begin lair, a roach warren, and an evolution chamber. When lair is ~50% done, add 2 more gasses (bringing it up to a total of 4). With the next 100 gas, begin researching ling speed. When lair is done, you should have roach speed and +1 ranged attack researching as well. Don't forget to throw down a macro hatchery when money permits, this is usually put down in the main.

The Macro Game
    So - you've scouted your opponent's taking a third base. First things first - assuming that this opponent does not have a warp prism harassing on the map, take any units you may have built in case of a 3 base all in and move them into an aggressive stance outside of your opponent's 3 bases. As you get better, you will figure out how to poke and harass your opponent without losing units to forcefield traps, ect.

    At home, this when it is important to be taking a fourth base, adding a second evolution chamber (It is recommended to research missile and melee upgrades, leaving armor until hive when taking a third evolution chamber), and droning up. Generally, you want to overdrone your fourth base a tad, in order to place down a spine crawler wall (but still be mining adequately). Tech to infestors, and build units to defend any pushes while teching to hive. Usually, players start their hives at around the 12:00-12:30 mark in order to have brood lords out in a reasonable time. It is discourage by players from taking their hive sooner than this point - it leaves them vulnerable to certain 3 base all ins; as well as later from this point - players often get stuck in a low tech late game that simply does not work versus the monstrous Protoss death ball.

The Late Game Engagement
    Assuming that your Protoss opponent is not going air-toss (carriers, mothership, void rays oh my! (have 6 brood lords to focus templar, rest of army should consist of queen/infestor/corrupter)), your army should consist of:

    • 5-6 queens
    • 8-12 infestors
    • ~15-20 brood lords
    • ~5-10 corrupters

    Keep in mind that you will be on ~50-60 drones at this point
    Also don't forget about overseers - I like to get ~4 to be safe


    There should be no fight that you take that you don't want. Any fight taken should be presplit, with infestors and queens under or slightly behind the brood lord wall to avoid feedbacks. Throw down a thin(ish) wall of infested terrans - remember you don't want to spend too much energy on this, only enough to take away some fire - and make sure that everything is attacking. In these fights, the zerg player is forced to manually select units and micro them away or forward for specific spells. Here is what the professional's are doing in such a late game engagement: try to copy as much of it as possible, however, don't be overwhelmed. As long as your units are presplit and you're spamming fungal/infested terrans along with some transfuse, it will be fine (a few attempted neural's never hurt anyone either).

    Ideal Micro
    • 1-2 burrowed infestors behind or beside the opponent's army at all times, dodging detection while also looking for a neural on the mothership.
    • Select forward infestors to throw down infested terrans, move to back of fight to conserve for later engagements.
    • Kite back with brood lords - Get into a rhythm, however only kite back brood lords that are under threat of stalkers. Generally, with good fungals, stalkers will only have 1 potential forward blink.
    • Corrupters focused on colossus - Generally, the mothership will be neuralled or can be chased down after the fight anyways, colossi are more important.
    • Constantly select 1 infestor and move forward for an attemped neural on the mothership - if you get it, instantly waste it's energy on vortexes on your opponent's army.
    • Whenever templar come forward, pull back queens/infestors and focus closest 3-5 brood lords on the templar.
    • Look for chain fungal growths - specifically on the stalkers - these are the most important part of the standard protoss late game that must die.

Creep Spread
    Creep spreading in ZvP can only help you - some players choose not to focus on it, but we think they are making a critical mistake. Not only does creep give you a huge amount of vision, but creep also can delay all-ins/pressure from the opponent - forcing them to wait for the creep to dissipate before moving out. Therefore, we would suggest following this *creep guide* in ZvP:

    • With your first queen, inject larva at your main hatchery before moving it down to your natural (assuming a 14 pool 15 hatch opener). I like to place a creep tumor at my natural immediately with my next 25 energy - skipping inject #2 on that queen. The extra creep spread means that you can spread creep out to around the middle of the map by the time any kind of 2 base all in would hit - to your opponent's fourth by the time a 3 base all in would hit.
    • It is worthwhile to get 1 extra queen as you are taking your fourth base to spread creep. Try to hard 4 active tumors down. This will assure that your creep spread will at least cover your half of the map, making scouting warp prisms and army movements much easier.

VODs
    [image loading] MC vs. viOlet on Daybreak from Iron Squid Chapter II. Standard ZvP. Zerg with fifteen pool into three base then a twelve minute maxed out roach/ling push. Protoss with nexus first into three base.

    [image loading] CreatorPrime vs. DongRaeGu on Ohana from Iron Squid Chapter II. Very standard ZvP game. Roach/ling/infestor without greater spire vs standard Protoss late game army.

    [image loading] Brown vs. Scarlett on Cloud Kingdom from Iron Squid Chapter II. Dealing with a three base colossus attack with ling/infestor/brood lord.



Writeup by Glon
Graphics by pathy
Other contributions by Flicer, monk, PolskaGora, SixtusTheFifth, TheEmulator, and wo1fwood

Glon is a semi-professional Zerg playing for Quantic Gaming. He is currently the top ranked American on the HotS GM ladder. You can follow Glon on twitter @QuanticGlon and watch his stream here at www.twitch.tv/vvvglon.
@QuanticGlon https://twitter.com/QuanticGlon
Glon
Profile Joined December 2010
United States569 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-04 00:33:43
March 03 2013 20:26 GMT
#2
Huge thanks for editors - Flicer, monk, PolskaGora, SixtusTheFifth, TheEmulator, and wo1fwood - you guys are the best!

Also shout out to pathy for the sick graphics!


I will be available in this thread to answer any questions.




*Edit: If you would like to directly support me, follow me on twitter @QuanticGlon. Don't have a twitter? Make one
@QuanticGlon https://twitter.com/QuanticGlon
KawaiiRice
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States2914 Posts
March 03 2013 20:26 GMT
#3
swag swerve yolo zerg 4 ST_Lyfe
@KawaiiRiceLighT
ZeromuS
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada13389 Posts
March 03 2013 20:26 GMT
#4
Great job Glon, finally glad to see this come out ^^
StrategyRTS forever | @ZeromuS_plays | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_
RemarK
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States452 Posts
March 03 2013 20:29 GMT
#5
On March 04 2013 05:26 KawaiiRice wrote:
swag swerve yolo zerg 4 ST_Lyfe


Are you FXOSirius...... those puns were not the TheBest.

Nice guide, Glon Glad to see TLStrategy growing so much as of late.
I <3 StarCraft.
Deleted User 135096
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
3624 Posts
March 03 2013 20:29 GMT
#6
...cough...uh...more on this Te[censored] thing later.
Administrator
RiSkysc2
Profile Joined September 2011
696 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-03 20:39:52
March 03 2013 20:39 GMT
#7
the zvp section can be summarised to:

"Get to blord infestor - amove"

+ Show Spoiler +
Sorry, i just had to say it :D.


User was temp banned for this post.
Ahelvin
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
France1866 Posts
March 03 2013 20:46 GMT
#8
Oh god thanks for this !

Hopefully this will revive my motivation to update the Liquipedia Zerg Page !
Join the Liquipedia Zerg Project ! PM me for more information :).
Mesha
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Bosnia-Herzegovina439 Posts
March 03 2013 20:53 GMT
#9
I just switched to zerg a week ago, and was thinking how do i catch up with all the zerg knowledge and strategy and i see this thread. I think this read is a good start for me. ^_^

Thank you.
Reality hits you hard bro.
imEnex
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada500 Posts
March 03 2013 20:54 GMT
#10
Holy information!

Thanks Glon, all the Zergs will be happy ^.^
Program yourself to Success
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
March 03 2013 20:56 GMT
#11
On March 04 2013 05:29 RemarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 04 2013 05:26 KawaiiRice wrote:
swag swerve yolo zerg 4 ST_Lyfe


Are you FXOSirius...... those puns were not the TheBest.

Nice guide, Glon Glad to see TLStrategy growing so much as of late.


Yeah it's like there's so much more organized work going on!
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Glon
Profile Joined December 2010
United States569 Posts
March 03 2013 21:06 GMT
#12
On March 04 2013 05:26 KawaiiRice wrote:
swag swerve yolo zerg 4 ST_Lyfe


<3
@QuanticGlon https://twitter.com/QuanticGlon
gCgCrypto
Profile Joined December 2010
Germany297 Posts
March 03 2013 21:21 GMT
#13
while this guide is amazing and detailed i feel like it comes at an unfortunate time, 8 days before the HotS launch where almost everything described in this guide gets meaningless =(
L E E J A E D O N G ! <3
Glooz
Profile Joined March 2013
1 Post
March 03 2013 21:26 GMT
#14
On March 04 2013 06:21 gCgCrypto wrote:
while this guide is amazing and detailed i feel like it comes at an unfortunate time, 8 days before the HotS launch where almost everything described in this guide gets meaningless =(


I gotta agree here, but I think Glon is general enough that he can still easily adapt the guide to HotS (things such as # of overlords, dealing with drops, etc. still apply)
Olli
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Austria24418 Posts
March 03 2013 21:28 GMT
#15
Hot dayum, TL forum users will flood GM soon. I'll use this soon. Gonna random a lot in HotS :D
Administrator"Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."
Glon
Profile Joined December 2010
United States569 Posts
March 03 2013 21:32 GMT
#16
On March 04 2013 06:21 gCgCrypto wrote:
while this guide is amazing and detailed i feel like it comes at an unfortunate time, 8 days before the HotS launch where almost everything described in this guide gets meaningless =(


ZvZ almost completely carries over.

Also note that EVERY basic build order is usable in HotS. Even the mid game strats can be used - albeit they aren't the most effective tactics.
@QuanticGlon https://twitter.com/QuanticGlon
gCgCrypto
Profile Joined December 2010
Germany297 Posts
March 03 2013 21:45 GMT
#17
On March 04 2013 06:32 Glon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 04 2013 06:21 gCgCrypto wrote:
while this guide is amazing and detailed i feel like it comes at an unfortunate time, 8 days before the HotS launch where almost everything described in this guide gets meaningless =(


ZvZ almost completely carries over.

Also note that EVERY basic build order is usable in HotS. Even the mid game strats can be used - albeit they aren't the most effective tactics.


Sure it´s not entierly useless i just feel that you put too mutch effort into this only for it being relevant 8 days and only some bits carrying over to HotS.
Regardless, the guide is of great quality and has a lot of information so hats off to you for making it =)
Hope there will be one of this kind for HotS eventually, when the metagame stabilizes
L E E J A E D O N G ! <3
Glon
Profile Joined December 2010
United States569 Posts
March 03 2013 21:46 GMT
#18
On March 04 2013 06:45 gCgCrypto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 04 2013 06:32 Glon wrote:
On March 04 2013 06:21 gCgCrypto wrote:
while this guide is amazing and detailed i feel like it comes at an unfortunate time, 8 days before the HotS launch where almost everything described in this guide gets meaningless =(


ZvZ almost completely carries over.

Also note that EVERY basic build order is usable in HotS. Even the mid game strats can be used - albeit they aren't the most effective tactics.


Sure it´s not entierly useless i just feel that you put too mutch effort into this only for it being relevant 8 days and only some bits carrying over to HotS.
Regardless, the guide is of great quality and has a lot of information so hats off to you for making it =)
Hope there will be one of this kind for HotS eventually, when the metagame stabilizes


I will begin working on a HotS guide in 2 weeks
@QuanticGlon https://twitter.com/QuanticGlon
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-06 16:53:45
March 03 2013 22:20 GMT
#19
Very nice of Glon to take the time to write this, and for the others to help structure it so effectively :D well done
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
CrazyF1r3f0x
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2120 Posts
March 03 2013 22:30 GMT
#20
Very concise for what you are writing about; thanks for making this -- I was rather confused in my ZvTs.
"Actual happiness always looks pretty squalid in comparison with the overcompensations for misery."
Deign85
Profile Joined August 2010
United States13 Posts
March 03 2013 23:02 GMT
#21
Thank you so much for this Glon. This is just what a newbie like me needs
SHODAN
Profile Joined November 2011
United Kingdom1132 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-04 00:51:23
March 04 2013 00:48 GMT
#22
Sick! thanks Glon. I don't play zerg, but this is still incredibly useful. makes me wonder why there are so few terran guides out there - terran players never share their secrets.

looking forward to the hots guide!
BigRedDog
Profile Joined May 2012
461 Posts
March 04 2013 02:01 GMT
#23
i like this guide because it is easy to follow and easy to read. Thanks a lot
Big Red Dog!
Puba
Profile Joined March 2013
United Kingdom1 Post
March 04 2013 02:49 GMT
#24
This is really great for new Zerg players. Keep up the good work.
ChanmanV
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1156 Posts
March 04 2013 04:32 GMT
#25
nice job glon! love your guides but this is level up style!
LoddoG
Profile Joined January 2012
Germany1 Post
March 04 2013 05:13 GMT
#26
NEED this for Terran and Protoss too, great summary :-)
FliceR
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
Austria72 Posts
March 04 2013 06:46 GMT
#27
It‘s here (Y) good job! :D
@peterflicer hit me up on Twitter ;)
TheEmulator
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
28090 Posts
March 04 2013 07:12 GMT
#28
On March 04 2013 05:26 KawaiiRice wrote:
swag swerve yolo zerg 4 ST_Lyfe

Well said

Great guide Glon, when editing it I was like wtf I'm learning so much stuff, lol.
Administrator
romelako
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States373 Posts
March 04 2013 09:46 GMT
#29
The organization of the guide is fantastic. As a master league player, it was a very refreshing thing to read. The information is accurate and providing examples of professional players was an added plus. Looking forward to reading your HotS guides. Keep up the good work, Glon.
achristes
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Norway653 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-04 14:29:51
March 04 2013 10:18 GMT
#30
On March 04 2013 14:13 LoddoG wrote:
NEED this for Terran and Protoss too, great summary :-)

I think there is one for Protoss, don't really remember though.

I have 2 friends that pretty much just bought SC2, this will probably help them alot, ty.

Edit
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361656 Terran, not exactly the same, but surely helpful
youtube.com/spooderm4n | twitch.tv/spooderm4n | Random videos and games I feel like uploading
vojnik
Profile Joined October 2010
Macedonia923 Posts
March 04 2013 13:31 GMT
#31
On March 04 2013 06:46 Glon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 04 2013 06:45 gCgCrypto wrote:
On March 04 2013 06:32 Glon wrote:
On March 04 2013 06:21 gCgCrypto wrote:
while this guide is amazing and detailed i feel like it comes at an unfortunate time, 8 days before the HotS launch where almost everything described in this guide gets meaningless =(


ZvZ almost completely carries over.

Also note that EVERY basic build order is usable in HotS. Even the mid game strats can be used - albeit they aren't the most effective tactics.


Sure it´s not entierly useless i just feel that you put too mutch effort into this only for it being relevant 8 days and only some bits carrying over to HotS.
Regardless, the guide is of great quality and has a lot of information so hats off to you for making it =)
Hope there will be one of this kind for HotS eventually, when the metagame stabilizes


I will begin working on a HotS guide in 2 weeks


That will be wonderful !!!
Thanks a lot for your time and effort man, respect !
For the swarm!
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
March 04 2013 14:09 GMT
#32
Great job, I learnt lots of stuff and never read something and went "wow that's wrong" which is always a good sign for a guide.
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
kamidesu
Profile Joined December 2012
Thailand25 Posts
March 04 2013 16:42 GMT
#33
Thank you glon
Fruit Dealer ;D First SC2 KING / Jaedong the One and Only Real kING
habeck
Profile Joined February 2011
1120 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-04 17:25:25
March 04 2013 17:24 GMT
#34
The very first thing any Terran must do is identify that it is a 2 barracks play.

Sorry for pointing out, but maybe it was supposed to be like this?

The very first thing any terran zerg must do is identify that it is a 2 barracks play
TheEmulator
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
28090 Posts
March 04 2013 17:27 GMT
#35
On March 05 2013 02:24 habeck wrote:
The very first thing any Terran must do is identify that it is a 2 barracks play.

Sorry for pointing out, but maybe it was supposed to be like this?

The very first thing any terran zerg must do is identify that it is a 2 barracks play

Yeah, it should say Zerg. I didn't catch that, thanks for pointing it out.
Administrator
Lobotomist
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1541 Posts
March 04 2013 17:53 GMT
#36
One thing I'm curious about: why no 14 gas/14 pool mention in zvp/zvz? It used to be considered standard in zvp when gateway expands were common, and was relatively common in zvz as well. Is this build considered out of date now? I could see it being behind in zvz (vs either standard pool or hatch first builds) but what about in zvp? if you absolutely knew your opponent was going to gateway expand, would this be a worthwhile build to use?
Teching to hive too quickly isn't just a risk: it's an ultrarisk
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
March 04 2013 19:37 GMT
#37
Not really the Zerg can just reactively go for gas when he confirms the gateway expand using an overlord, and have speed in time for anything that's truly scary.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Glon
Profile Joined December 2010
United States569 Posts
March 04 2013 20:10 GMT
#38
On March 05 2013 02:53 Lobotomist wrote:
One thing I'm curious about: why no 14 gas/14 pool mention in zvp/zvz? It used to be considered standard in zvp when gateway expands were common, and was relatively common in zvz as well. Is this build considered out of date now? I could see it being behind in zvz (vs either standard pool or hatch first builds) but what about in zvp? if you absolutely knew your opponent was going to gateway expand, would this be a worthwhile build to use?


14 gas/14 pool is NOT considered standard in either matchup.

In ZvP, it's a coin-flip all in that will put you behind if you try to macro out of it.

In ZvZ, if you're looking to go for speed/bane pressure, either a 10 pool/10 gas OR a 14 pool /15 gas /hatchery is much more standard.

14/14 has lost it's place as a conventional build order.
@QuanticGlon https://twitter.com/QuanticGlon
Glon
Profile Joined December 2010
United States569 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-04 20:11:45
March 04 2013 20:11 GMT
#39
On March 05 2013 04:37 Teoita wrote:
Not really the Zerg can just reactively go for gas when he confirms the gateway expand using an overlord, and have speed in time for anything that's truly scary.


Or, just go gasless, go 4 queen and grab 2-3 spines (start them at ~5:25, cancel if see expo)

This tactic gives zerg a lot of creep spread/map control as the game progresses. Think ~ to ZvT, but in ZvP.
@QuanticGlon https://twitter.com/QuanticGlon
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
March 04 2013 20:36 GMT
#40
Good point. Fuckin queen buff lol :D
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
syriuszonito
Profile Joined June 2011
Poland332 Posts
March 04 2013 21:41 GMT
#41
Didnt read it all but looks really solid. One thing I would disagree is defense agains 9/10pools with 14p (isnt 15p/16h standard btw?). If you make your queen first and then lings you can actually get the queen in time to save the hatchery without the need to pull any drones
The one || My stream http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/syriuszonito
Glon
Profile Joined December 2010
United States569 Posts
March 05 2013 03:27 GMT
#42
On March 05 2013 06:41 syriuszonito wrote:
Didnt read it all but looks really solid. One thing I would disagree is defense agains 9/10pools with 14p (isnt 15p/16h standard btw?). If you make your queen first and then lings you can actually get the queen in time to save the hatchery without the need to pull any drones


This does NOT work on the pro level. EVERY pro does NOT go queen first (unless for some reason they didn't scout it).

And, generally, it's either 14p/15h OR 15p/15h. You don't take a hatch on 16.


Read it
@QuanticGlon https://twitter.com/QuanticGlon
Insoleet
Profile Joined May 2012
France1806 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-05 08:03:43
March 05 2013 08:03 GMT
#43
On March 03 2013 03:03 Glon wrote:
Versus a mutalisk player (you are not going for mutalisks), your goal should be to establish a third base and get infestors onto the field. Typically, as soon as the infestor player scouts the spire, he/she will place two spores at his third, one at his main and natural, and another between his natural and third. Keep in mind that, after getting 5-6 infestors, the infestor player must wait until he gets up hydralisks in order to push out across the maps (because mutalisks can split up to avoid being fungaled en mass), so remember not to put out across the map too early. In the mean time, prepare to defend yourself against zergling/mutalisk harass.


I asked the question on the Q/A Pro thread, but didnt get any answer. So I try there (i feel like the Q/A pro thread is more designed for hots questions anyway)

I dont have huge problem defending mulalisks.

The biggest problem I see is that my opponent usually deny all map control i could have until i have infestors + hydralisks. But when I go out, my opponent generally already has a saturated 4th, and his production facilities just overwhelm me.

If i try to go out before, with less hydras/infestors, it's runby everywhere, or lose everything to mutalisks + zerglings surround.

Sometimes, my opponents just outgreed me. Taking a fast 4th without even building any spines. But as I can go out of my base, I don't know that I could kill him right now...

I dont want to play mutalisks in ZvZ, so I wonder, what is the best way to deal with this situation. Stuck on 3 base, no map control... It will be even harder in HOTS so I need to fix it at least on WoL I guess. ^^

Mid master zerg EU here.
Golgotha
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Korea (South)8418 Posts
March 05 2013 11:03 GMT
#44
Man I wish there was something like this for bw. BW Liquipedia is outdated.
theonlyshaft
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States581 Posts
March 05 2013 11:04 GMT
#45
Nice work man. I can tell it took you awhile. It's great not seeing a great wall of text -- formatting is your friend <3
Nullius addictus iurare in verba magistri, — quo me cumque rapit tempestas, deferor hospes
Glon
Profile Joined December 2010
United States569 Posts
March 05 2013 11:40 GMT
#46
On March 05 2013 17:03 Insoleet wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 03 2013 03:03 Glon wrote:
Versus a mutalisk player (you are not going for mutalisks), your goal should be to establish a third base and get infestors onto the field. Typically, as soon as the infestor player scouts the spire, he/she will place two spores at his third, one at his main and natural, and another between his natural and third. Keep in mind that, after getting 5-6 infestors, the infestor player must wait until he gets up hydralisks in order to push out across the maps (because mutalisks can split up to avoid being fungaled en mass), so remember not to put out across the map too early. In the mean time, prepare to defend yourself against zergling/mutalisk harass.


I asked the question on the Q/A Pro thread, but didnt get any answer. So I try there (i feel like the Q/A pro thread is more designed for hots questions anyway)

I dont have huge problem defending mulalisks.

The biggest problem I see is that my opponent usually deny all map control i could have until i have infestors + hydralisks. But when I go out, my opponent generally already has a saturated 4th, and his production facilities just overwhelm me.

If i try to go out before, with less hydras/infestors, it's runby everywhere, or lose everything to mutalisks + zerglings surround.

Sometimes, my opponents just outgreed me. Taking a fast 4th without even building any spines. But as I can go out of my base, I don't know that I could kill him right now...

I dont want to play mutalisks in ZvZ, so I wonder, what is the best way to deal with this situation. Stuck on 3 base, no map control... It will be even harder in HOTS so I need to fix it at least on WoL I guess. ^^

Mid master zerg EU here.


In HotS, it's really, REALLY hard to not go muta versus a muta player if you don't have a third up and established. Generally, the non-muta going player MUST rely on pure infestor/ling/spores for his defense. Rewatch the GSTL match between Leenock and Violet - here, Violet does and excellent job harassing with infestors while relying on only zerglings/infestors/spore colonies for defesnse at home. Later, once Violet has a 3 base economy more or less established, he adds on Hydralisks and a roach warren.

All in all, it's still very difficult to NOT go mutalisk in HotS. However, do remember that it IS possible on maps where the third is not far away from your natural (meaning that it is easier for you to get defense/creep spread over there). On maps where the third is far away from your natural, you're much better off either just going for mutalisks yourself OR all inning.

Hope it helped.
@QuanticGlon https://twitter.com/QuanticGlon
Yoinhell
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada49 Posts
March 06 2013 04:08 GMT
#47
Crazy awesome write up. Thanks for doing this. You're the man Glon!
FoShao
Profile Joined November 2012
United States256 Posts
March 06 2013 08:07 GMT
#48
The ZvP guide should really just say @ x:xx time build roach warren ---> win :p lol jk

on topic, this is a nice overview
syriuszonito
Profile Joined June 2011
Poland332 Posts
March 06 2013 13:47 GMT
#49
On March 05 2013 12:27 Glon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2013 06:41 syriuszonito wrote:
Didnt read it all but looks really solid. One thing I would disagree is defense agains 9/10pools with 14p (isnt 15p/16h standard btw?). If you make your queen first and then lings you can actually get the queen in time to save the hatchery without the need to pull any drones


This does NOT work on the pro level. EVERY pro does NOT go queen first (unless for some reason they didn't scout it).

And, generally, it's either 14p/15h OR 15p/15h. You don't take a hatch on 16.


Read it


Hm its really common to build a pool on 15 and make 2 drones then hatch but not wanna argue about it.
About the queen first then lings - I DONT know if it works on pro lvl or not but I am pretty sure that none of pro lvl players will read this guide and on lower lvl it DOES work and it gives you are a better economy obviously as you DONT have to pull drones and you DO get the queen faster.
The one || My stream http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/syriuszonito
crbox
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada1180 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-06 17:29:52
March 06 2013 17:25 GMT
#50
On March 05 2013 12:27 Glon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2013 06:41 syriuszonito wrote:
Didnt read it all but looks really solid. One thing I would disagree is defense agains 9/10pools with 14p (isnt 15p/16h standard btw?). If you make your queen first and then lings you can actually get the queen in time to save the hatchery without the need to pull any drones


This does NOT work on the pro level. EVERY pro does NOT go queen first (unless for some reason they didn't scout it).

And, generally, it's either 14p/15h OR 15p/15h. You don't take a hatch on 16.


Read it


its either 15/15 or 15/16 not 14/15 lol

16 hatch after 15p is pretty common

edit: 14/15 is more common in zvp if you expect your opponent to be cheesy and canon rush.
Glon
Profile Joined December 2010
United States569 Posts
March 06 2013 22:20 GMT
#51
On March 07 2013 02:25 crbox wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2013 12:27 Glon wrote:
On March 05 2013 06:41 syriuszonito wrote:
Didnt read it all but looks really solid. One thing I would disagree is defense agains 9/10pools with 14p (isnt 15p/16h standard btw?). If you make your queen first and then lings you can actually get the queen in time to save the hatchery without the need to pull any drones


This does NOT work on the pro level. EVERY pro does NOT go queen first (unless for some reason they didn't scout it).

And, generally, it's either 14p/15h OR 15p/15h. You don't take a hatch on 16.


Read it


its either 15/15 or 15/16 not 14/15 lol

16 hatch after 15p is pretty common

edit: 14/15 is more common in zvp if you expect your opponent to be cheesy and canon rush.


Really? I 14p/15h ~ half my games in ZvZ. Allows for ~5 second faster lings when vs a 10 p.

And in response to the guy who said queen first: This guide is meant to propel people to a very high level. Obviously it does not cover more than a hair over the essentials, but the principles will remain true no matter what level you are. Therefore, I choose to give strategies that work on the highest level (and also at any) so that people can trust that the guide is universal.
@QuanticGlon https://twitter.com/QuanticGlon
blade55555
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States17423 Posts
March 06 2013 22:34 GMT
#52
On March 07 2013 07:20 Glon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2013 02:25 crbox wrote:
On March 05 2013 12:27 Glon wrote:
On March 05 2013 06:41 syriuszonito wrote:
Didnt read it all but looks really solid. One thing I would disagree is defense agains 9/10pools with 14p (isnt 15p/16h standard btw?). If you make your queen first and then lings you can actually get the queen in time to save the hatchery without the need to pull any drones


This does NOT work on the pro level. EVERY pro does NOT go queen first (unless for some reason they didn't scout it).

And, generally, it's either 14p/15h OR 15p/15h. You don't take a hatch on 16.


Read it


its either 15/15 or 15/16 not 14/15 lol

16 hatch after 15p is pretty common

edit: 14/15 is more common in zvp if you expect your opponent to be cheesy and canon rush.


Really? I 14p/15h ~ half my games in ZvZ. Allows for ~5 second faster lings when vs a 10 p.

And in response to the guy who said queen first: This guide is meant to propel people to a very high level. Obviously it does not cover more than a hair over the essentials, but the principles will remain true no matter what level you are. Therefore, I choose to give strategies that work on the highest level (and also at any) so that people can trust that the guide is universal.


Just wanted to throw in yeah 15 pool 16 hatch is common I do it, I see pros like idra do it all the time in zvz/zvp. I rarely see 14 pool 15 hatch.
When I think of something else, something will go here
achristes
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Norway653 Posts
March 07 2013 10:05 GMT
#53
On March 05 2013 05:10 Glon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2013 02:53 Lobotomist wrote:
One thing I'm curious about: why no 14 gas/14 pool mention in zvp/zvz? It used to be considered standard in zvp when gateway expands were common, and was relatively common in zvz as well. Is this build considered out of date now? I could see it being behind in zvz (vs either standard pool or hatch first builds) but what about in zvp? if you absolutely knew your opponent was going to gateway expand, would this be a worthwhile build to use?


14 gas/14 pool is NOT considered standard in either matchup.

In ZvP, it's a coin-flip all in that will put you behind if you try to macro out of it.

In ZvZ, if you're looking to go for speed/bane pressure, either a 10 pool/10 gas OR a 14 pool /15 gas /hatchery is much more standard.

14/14 has lost it's place as a conventional build order.

I don't agree about the 14/14 in ZvZ. I use it to pressure greedy openings such as 15 hatch, and if they went completely overboard (hatch, gas, pool) then the hatchery is going down 100% of the time putting me waay ahead. If they don't go hatch first it can still be used for general harass (killing drones, lings, queens) and you can easily morph 1-2 banelings if you think you can break him.

As an allin 14/14 is outdated, but as a general pressure build it's excellent IMO.

(Or maybe I am being old fashioned and refuse to believe that there exists better builds for this...)
youtube.com/spooderm4n | twitch.tv/spooderm4n | Random videos and games I feel like uploading
IceBergZ
Profile Joined September 2012
Malaysia176 Posts
March 07 2013 13:16 GMT
#54
any pdf for this so I can print
Glon
Profile Joined December 2010
United States569 Posts
March 07 2013 23:29 GMT
#55
On March 07 2013 19:05 achristes wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2013 05:10 Glon wrote:
On March 05 2013 02:53 Lobotomist wrote:
One thing I'm curious about: why no 14 gas/14 pool mention in zvp/zvz? It used to be considered standard in zvp when gateway expands were common, and was relatively common in zvz as well. Is this build considered out of date now? I could see it being behind in zvz (vs either standard pool or hatch first builds) but what about in zvp? if you absolutely knew your opponent was going to gateway expand, would this be a worthwhile build to use?


14 gas/14 pool is NOT considered standard in either matchup.

In ZvP, it's a coin-flip all in that will put you behind if you try to macro out of it.

In ZvZ, if you're looking to go for speed/bane pressure, either a 10 pool/10 gas OR a 14 pool /15 gas /hatchery is much more standard.

14/14 has lost it's place as a conventional build order.

I don't agree about the 14/14 in ZvZ. I use it to pressure greedy openings such as 15 hatch, and if they went completely overboard (hatch, gas, pool) then the hatchery is going down 100% of the time putting me waay ahead. If they don't go hatch first it can still be used for general harass (killing drones, lings, queens) and you can easily morph 1-2 banelings if you think you can break him.

As an allin 14/14 is outdated, but as a general pressure build it's excellent IMO.

(Or maybe I am being old fashioned and refuse to believe that there exists better builds for this...)


Again, I have built a guide that can build up a player to the semi-professional level (or damn well near it). You don't see pros go 14/14 on any regular basis - and I don't even think at all since 14 pool / 15 gas / 15 hatch is much more popular for coinflip all ins.

If it works for you - great! But it won't work consisantly on higher levels, what this is supposed to entail
@QuanticGlon https://twitter.com/QuanticGlon
Glon
Profile Joined December 2010
United States569 Posts
March 07 2013 23:30 GMT
#56
On March 07 2013 22:16 IceBergZ wrote:
any pdf for this so I can print


I can work on that for you
@QuanticGlon https://twitter.com/QuanticGlon
Glon
Profile Joined December 2010
United States569 Posts
March 07 2013 23:45 GMT
#57
On March 07 2013 22:16 IceBergZ wrote:
any pdf for this so I can print


Ok just checked- converting it to a PDF would take A LOT of manual work, so it's a no sorry.

I would suggest printing from TL (I would just take screenshots and print from there)
@QuanticGlon https://twitter.com/QuanticGlon
Crushgroove
Profile Joined July 2010
United States793 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-08 16:21:07
March 08 2013 16:20 GMT
#58
Amazing and valuable contribution, Job well done. Kudos.


Edit: Converting to PDF would be easy peasy.... I can do it if you want.
[In Korea on Vaca] "Why would I go to the park and climb a mountain? There are video games on f*cking TV!" - Kazuke
Glon
Profile Joined December 2010
United States569 Posts
March 08 2013 19:27 GMT
#59
On March 09 2013 01:20 Crushgroove wrote:
Amazing and valuable contribution, Job well done. Kudos.


Edit: Converting to PDF would be easy peasy.... I can do it if you want.


No, it isn't - you have to change scripts/other stuff. The TvZ guide took the TL Editors 3 days of manual work to convert it - not going to ask them to change this one to PDF. Just print from here, sorry ;(
@QuanticGlon https://twitter.com/QuanticGlon
DawN883
Profile Joined November 2011
Sweden558 Posts
March 08 2013 22:39 GMT
#60
+ Show Spoiler +
"Perhaps one of the most common strategies used for aggression in the mid game is the combination of helions and banshees to harass the Zerg while the Zerg is still trying to establish an economy and teching up to lair. If the Zerg player chooses to go for a 2 base tech build, defending helion banshee play shouldn't be a problem - the Zerg will have speed lings out and lair tech soon to come in order to defend the helions. However, in general, whenever you see a helion/banshee composition come out:

1 spore per base (yes, even the main)
1 spore between your natural and your third (helps when jumping between bases)
I prefer to get 1 spine at my third (Helps if you under make zerglings, ect)
Make ~16 zerglings and 1-2 extra queens

Position zerglings to stop helions from entering your natural or third - They're there to prevent runby's, not to chase helions. Basically, the goal is to defend without losing drones until either the Terran loses his units in a mistake or until lair tech is out. Remember to split any zerglings - if the Terran player dives with his helions, split the zerglings, pull the drones back, and move the queens/zerglings in. Queens should be focusing down banshees - they are the most dangerous units - while zerglings take care of helions. Most player's prefer to not get up roaches unless facing multiple factories, which requires that you not get caught out of position, and not chase helions off of creep."


You should maybe add that simcity with evolution chambers can really put a dent in a lot of hellion aggresion. As terran I can say that too many times zerg players (even master zergs sometimes!) skips building two evolution chambers to make chokepoints and just focuses on massing lings, which sometimes just get roasted.
If the dead are not raised, Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die
Gemini_sc2
Profile Joined February 2013
Norway69 Posts
March 09 2013 11:07 GMT
#61
Good job, really neat overview
osiris17
Profile Blog Joined September 2012
United States165 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-09 13:30:22
March 09 2013 13:09 GMT
#62
I only read a very small part of this, then I stopped, because I saw this::
"If you are going for a mutalisk opener, I would suggest not spreading any creep past connecting your natural to third until after your initial harassment. Most players that go for a mutalisk play end up dieing to an all in from their opponent - Spreading creep in this situation only helps your opponent get to you sooner."
But this just doesn't make sense, it's flat out wrong. The minor timing increase (maybe 3 seconds maximum at this time) from your spreading creep that your opponent gains while doing an allin is totally insignificant compared to the vision and map presence the creep spread allows you throughout the mid and late game, especially in muta vs muta wars where map presence / knowing where your opponents are is EVERYTHING. If you are dying this badly to allins, focus more on dealing with the allins instead of cutting out your creep spread in what is a totally unnecessary and ineffective adjustment. I'd like to know what allin you're afraid of, too. High econ banelings? Roach bust? I'm gona guess high econ banelings. You will have the gas to make a ton of banelings yourself... with proper micro you should be able to defend it. Work on micro / crisis management. Here are a few tips:
-have 2 zerglings pre-built at your natural, ready to be morphed into banelings
-send your banelings forward 2 at a time along with just a couple lings and push the opponent back, gain position
-continuously be morphing banelings
-spread the banelings out in pairs in a defensive position
-build another crawler in anticipation of your crawler dying
-don't overproduce mass lings, but produce a ton of banes instead off 3 gas (which you should have by now)
-take your 2nd & 3rd gas if you don't already have them
-Add a queen in the main when you pull your main queen down to the natural, so that you can keep up on injects, and expecting at least 1 queen to die
-position overlords over where the opponent will be morphing / is morphing his banelings for the vision
-If you are low on gas at the time he moves out with alot of speedlings, cancel your lair and use the 75 gas you get to morph 3 more of them. The initial phase is the most important
-If you have 12 drones on 4 gas geysers because you were teching to mutas, use the gas to create even more banes during the attacks while producing only small groups of extra speedlings and, because of how larva efficient banelings are, you can actually continue to squeeze drones out.
-When your money goes above 300, remember to make a macro hatch in your base.
-The high econ bane attacks are much more effective against fast lair / faster gas versions of muta tech. There are versions with a slower lair which get adequate numbers of mutas out, more defensively at first, but these versions can take the 3rd more easily as well, but also fare better against the bane pressure.

You are ahead in drones.
Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of the opponent's fate. - sun tzu
Mefaso
Profile Joined July 2012
Germany27 Posts
March 09 2013 16:32 GMT
#63
Very unfortunate timing for a wings guide. in a few days there will only be a fraction of players left.
Glon
Profile Joined December 2010
United States569 Posts
March 09 2013 20:37 GMT
#64
On March 09 2013 22:09 osiris17 wrote:
I only read a very small part of this, then I stopped, because I saw this::
"If you are going for a mutalisk opener, I would suggest not spreading any creep past connecting your natural to third until after your initial harassment. Most players that go for a mutalisk play end up dieing to an all in from their opponent - Spreading creep in this situation only helps your opponent get to you sooner."
But this just doesn't make sense, it's flat out wrong. The minor timing increase (maybe 3 seconds maximum at this time) from your spreading creep that your opponent gains while doing an allin is totally insignificant compared to the vision and map presence the creep spread allows you throughout the mid and late game, especially in muta vs muta wars where map presence / knowing where your opponents are is EVERYTHING. If you are dying this badly to allins, focus more on dealing with the allins instead of cutting out your creep spread in what is a totally unnecessary and ineffective adjustment. I'd like to know what allin you're afraid of, too. High econ banelings? Roach bust? I'm gona guess high econ banelings. You will have the gas to make a ton of banelings yourself... with proper micro you should be able to defend it. Work on micro / crisis management. Here are a few tips:
-have 2 zerglings pre-built at your natural, ready to be morphed into banelings
-send your banelings forward 2 at a time along with just a couple lings and push the opponent back, gain position
-continuously be morphing banelings
-spread the banelings out in pairs in a defensive position
-build another crawler in anticipation of your crawler dying
-don't overproduce mass lings, but produce a ton of banes instead off 3 gas (which you should have by now)
-take your 2nd & 3rd gas if you don't already have them
-Add a queen in the main when you pull your main queen down to the natural, so that you can keep up on injects, and expecting at least 1 queen to die
-position overlords over where the opponent will be morphing / is morphing his banelings for the vision
-If you are low on gas at the time he moves out with alot of speedlings, cancel your lair and use the 75 gas you get to morph 3 more of them. The initial phase is the most important
-If you have 12 drones on 4 gas geysers because you were teching to mutas, use the gas to create even more banes during the attacks while producing only small groups of extra speedlings and, because of how larva efficient banelings are, you can actually continue to squeeze drones out.
-When your money goes above 300, remember to make a macro hatch in your base.
-The high econ bane attacks are much more effective against fast lair / faster gas versions of muta tech. There are versions with a slower lair which get adequate numbers of mutas out, more defensively at first, but these versions can take the 3rd more easily as well, but also fare better against the bane pressure.

You are ahead in drones.


Ehhh watch more professional vods. The problem isn't with specifically the creep right outside of your base, it's giving a queen/infestor/roach (or hyda +roach) timing more speed. Generally, versus that timing, an extra 10 seconds of productions on your end will mean the difference between holding it and not holding the allin.

As for your build order- if that works for you, great! However, no one will ever build a macro hatch in their main before a third base - that is the main criticism I have of it. You will also find that, as your progress up the ladder, you may want to tinker with less banelings when possible (gas is upmost importance). I would also suggest trying to adopt one of the build orders shows here - they will carry you up to the top of the ladder.
@QuanticGlon https://twitter.com/QuanticGlon
Skoop
Profile Joined March 2011
United States214 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-12 17:40:40
March 12 2013 13:51 GMT
#65
Thanks so much for this. I've been getting shit on since hots released, this was very helpful.

Edit: My only issue is the exclusion of strategy vs widowmines. I find I'm having a lot of trouble with the zvt 2base push of widowmine medivac + bio. Or the slightly more delayed version which also has battle hellions. Even when I know it's coming, I don't seem to have the right units.
DongRaeGu & JangBi & HerO & Jaedong & ZerO & Taeja fighting!
Glon
Profile Joined December 2010
United States569 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-12 18:05:27
March 12 2013 18:04 GMT
#66
On March 12 2013 22:51 Skoop wrote:
Thanks so much for this. I've been getting shit on since hots released, this was very helpful.

Edit: My only issue is the exclusion of strategy vs widowmines. I find I'm having a lot of trouble with the zvt 2base push of widowmine medivac + bio. Or the slightly more delayed version which also has battle hellions. Even when I know it's coming, I don't seem to have the right units.



This is a Wings of Liberty strategy guide. However, ZvZ stays the same, the initial build orders are still 100% valid, and for the most part the mid game sections are very similar between both games.

I would suggest asking in the Pro zerg QandA thread
@QuanticGlon https://twitter.com/QuanticGlon
FlattLine
Profile Joined January 2011
80 Posts
March 13 2013 10:54 GMT
#67
sorry to be off topic but is there a way to 'favorite' threads like these so I can look at them closer at a later time?

It's great posts like these that force me to ask this!
Glon
Profile Joined December 2010
United States569 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-13 11:27:14
March 13 2013 11:26 GMT
#68
On March 13 2013 19:54 FlattLine wrote:
sorry to be off topic but is there a way to 'favorite' threads like these so I can look at them closer at a later time?

It's great posts like these that force me to ask this!



Uhhh favorite the link?

Glad you liked it
@QuanticGlon https://twitter.com/QuanticGlon
monk
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States8476 Posts
March 13 2013 12:04 GMT
#69
http://www.teamliquid.net/mytlnet/mythreads.php
Moderator
Skoop
Profile Joined March 2011
United States214 Posts
March 13 2013 13:58 GMT
#70
On March 13 2013 03:04 Glon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 12 2013 22:51 Skoop wrote:
Thanks so much for this. I've been getting shit on since hots released, this was very helpful.

Edit: My only issue is the exclusion of strategy vs widowmines. I find I'm having a lot of trouble with the zvt 2base push of widowmine medivac + bio. Or the slightly more delayed version which also has battle hellions. Even when I know it's coming, I don't seem to have the right units.



This is a Wings of Liberty strategy guide. However, ZvZ stays the same, the initial build orders are still 100% valid, and for the most part the mid game sections are very similar between both games.

I would suggest asking in the Pro zerg QandA thread


Oh god I feel stupid now haha. I got confused by the date of when the thread was posted
DongRaeGu & JangBi & HerO & Jaedong & ZerO & Taeja fighting!
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
March 14 2013 09:13 GMT
#71
Added to recommended threads.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Henk
Profile Joined March 2012
Netherlands578 Posts
March 14 2013 16:10 GMT
#72
Incredibly useful, thanks a ton.
kuruptt
Profile Joined August 2012
Canada168 Posts
March 18 2013 01:03 GMT
#73
Hello, I currently want to switch back to zerg after getting bored of the protoss race. I haven't bought HOTS yet and want to practice with WOL zerg before I switch over. Are these currently the best safest build orders for zergs in WOL? Should I be trying to perfect each matchup strategy in this guide? Thank you!
Glon
Profile Joined December 2010
United States569 Posts
March 20 2013 21:43 GMT
#74
On March 18 2013 10:03 kuruptt wrote:
Hello, I currently want to switch back to zerg after getting bored of the protoss race. I haven't bought HOTS yet and want to practice with WOL zerg before I switch over. Are these currently the best safest build orders for zergs in WOL? Should I be trying to perfect each matchup strategy in this guide? Thank you!


Sorry didn't see this - Yes, these build orders are safe and will work for all matchups.

If you have any Qs, don't hesitate to ask in here
@QuanticGlon https://twitter.com/QuanticGlon
kuruptt
Profile Joined August 2012
Canada168 Posts
March 25 2013 05:25 GMT
#75
Hey glon, what 3 maps should I be voting against?
Glon
Profile Joined December 2010
United States569 Posts
March 25 2013 17:44 GMT
#76
On March 25 2013 14:25 kuruptt wrote:
Hey glon, what 3 maps should I be voting against?



I voted down Korhal City (100% vote it down) and Star Station (I don't think tournaments will continue using it, and if they do it will be only cross)
@QuanticGlon https://twitter.com/QuanticGlon
kuruptt
Profile Joined August 2012
Canada168 Posts
March 25 2013 22:57 GMT
#77
On March 26 2013 02:44 Glon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 25 2013 14:25 kuruptt wrote:
Hey glon, what 3 maps should I be voting against?



I voted down Korhal City (100% vote it down) and Star Station (I don't think tournaments will continue using it, and if they do it will be only cross)


Oops sorry, I am still playing Wings of Liberty. It doesn't have those maps. Is there a place where I can find the win loss ratio for zergs for certain maps?
Glon
Profile Joined December 2010
United States569 Posts
March 26 2013 05:21 GMT
#78
On March 26 2013 07:57 kuruptt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 26 2013 02:44 Glon wrote:
On March 25 2013 14:25 kuruptt wrote:
Hey glon, what 3 maps should I be voting against?



I voted down Korhal City (100% vote it down) and Star Station (I don't think tournaments will continue using it, and if they do it will be only cross)


Oops sorry, I am still playing Wings of Liberty. It doesn't have those maps. Is there a place where I can find the win loss ratio for zergs for certain maps?


Still playing Wings? How long does it take to find a match que lol.

In wings, I don't really remember what I vetoed. I think maps that allowed for close (antiga + entombed)
@QuanticGlon https://twitter.com/QuanticGlon
kuruptt
Profile Joined August 2012
Canada168 Posts
April 01 2013 00:07 GMT
#79
On March 26 2013 14:21 Glon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 26 2013 07:57 kuruptt wrote:
On March 26 2013 02:44 Glon wrote:
On March 25 2013 14:25 kuruptt wrote:
Hey glon, what 3 maps should I be voting against?



I voted down Korhal City (100% vote it down) and Star Station (I don't think tournaments will continue using it, and if they do it will be only cross)


Oops sorry, I am still playing Wings of Liberty. It doesn't have those maps. Is there a place where I can find the win loss ratio for zergs for certain maps?


Still playing Wings? How long does it take to find a match que lol.

In wings, I don't really remember what I vetoed. I think maps that allowed for close (antiga + entombed)


Haha, I am only platinum right now but the ques are actually still the same, I used to main protoss and want to switch to zerg in HOTS so practicing in WOL first =D.

I have some questions, for ZVP what is the difference between 15p/16h and 14p/15h?

For ZvT I am having a lot of trouble with mech play, how do I go up against that? what units should I be making? How do I properly scout it when he kills all my overlord so I can't go into his base to check? I am usually just going ling/baneling/muta into ultralisks which has been doing wonders to bio army but not mech. I have no answer to mech at the moment.


Thanks for taking your time to check up on this thread and replying pretty quickly, I know everyone has moved into HOTS so I appreciate the effort man!
Glon
Profile Joined December 2010
United States569 Posts
April 01 2013 17:04 GMT
#80
On April 01 2013 09:07 kuruptt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 26 2013 14:21 Glon wrote:
On March 26 2013 07:57 kuruptt wrote:
On March 26 2013 02:44 Glon wrote:
On March 25 2013 14:25 kuruptt wrote:
Hey glon, what 3 maps should I be voting against?



I voted down Korhal City (100% vote it down) and Star Station (I don't think tournaments will continue using it, and if they do it will be only cross)


Oops sorry, I am still playing Wings of Liberty. It doesn't have those maps. Is there a place where I can find the win loss ratio for zergs for certain maps?


Still playing Wings? How long does it take to find a match que lol.

In wings, I don't really remember what I vetoed. I think maps that allowed for close (antiga + entombed)


Haha, I am only platinum right now but the ques are actually still the same, I used to main protoss and want to switch to zerg in HOTS so practicing in WOL first =D.

I have some questions, for ZVP what is the difference between 15p/16h and 14p/15h?

For ZvT I am having a lot of trouble with mech play, how do I go up against that? what units should I be making? How do I properly scout it when he kills all my overlord so I can't go into his base to check? I am usually just going ling/baneling/muta into ultralisks which has been doing wonders to bio army but not mech. I have no answer to mech at the moment.


Thanks for taking your time to check up on this thread and replying pretty quickly, I know everyone has moved into HOTS so I appreciate the effort man!




Uhhh versus mech you can either A. go with ling upgrades, stay very light on infestor, and rush for brood lords or B. Go with a roach/hydra composition... add drops or nydus.

@QuanticGlon https://twitter.com/QuanticGlon
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