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On October 07 2013 17:30 Maler wrote:Ive tried doing the exact same build as you  Problem is i like the hellbat tank style more, and if you open the way you do it leans more towards the tech heavy style of mech. But ill try it again in some games
I fell back to diamond this season, haven't had the time to grind enough games to get back into masters just yet, I have 70% win rate and I'm playing mostly against Masters so I should be back there soon. With that in mind...
One of my favorite openings in TvP is gas first into fast reactor hellions, I mostly use it on 2 player maps. It goes like:
11gas
12 (or 13 for a more eco oriented BO) rax
scout @ 14 supply, or a bit earlier in 4 player maps
@100%rax - OC
make a marine if you're being probe scouted, otherwise go straight into reactor+factory
2nd depot only after factory started building
@100% factory - 2 hellions/startport/2nd gas
@100% starport - dropship
Rally your first 2 hellions into his main, use them to scout his tech (if he's going blink or DT, his twilight council should be building, standard robo should be on the way as well, you also get to see if he expanded or not). You can also sac them to kill probes if you think you can get a worth trade, but favor getting the Hellions out alive if you can't kill like 5 or more probes.
After the first 2 hellions I like to queue up 2 widow mines, they'll be just in time to defend oracle play or msc/stalker poke, if you see MSC/stalker/zealot coming your way with your hellions, just run past it, he'll either have to pullback to defend or he'll try to hit your main anyway, in which case you can hold just fine with the 2 widow mines at the ramp + repair at the front.
After the initial 2 hellion poke, I like to do a follow up drop with 2hellions+2wm. Since most Protoss play so greedy these days, I get a lot of free wins with the initial poke+drop, in fact when I do this build I win outright half of the times in less than 9 minutes. That being sad, this build can transition just fine into macro games even if you don't manage to kill a lot of probes (you'll always get at the mininum a couple), it's important that you keep your units alive and always react properly. After your drop you should be expanding and adding another factory for tanks ASAP and a bunker. Some protoss players like to counter pressure you, especially if they suffered heavy eco damage, and the counter push can just straight up kill you if you're not prepared.
It's important to react correctly to what you see with your first 2 hellions, like adding another factory+tlab for Tanks if you suspect 1 base blink-allin or some sort of heavy agression.
I really like this build, I've learned the ins and outs of it and I feel safe using it even if I don't end up doing the planned economic damage and get a later natural. A lot of things about mech are about mind games, and this kind of build will throw your opponent off from the very beggining, and this type of "indirect damage" is also good. After your initial drop and expo you have a lot of options, you can get a factory for tanks, go into cloak banshees, a raven..or w/e. I feel it's a solid overall build.
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Dominican Republic34 Posts
[use to contain hopes and dreams]
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WTF Kalfos...why do you think avilo doesn't release a replay pack to the public? Those are for subs and donors ONLY.
Shame on you Kalfos...shame!
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Dominican Republic34 Posts
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He should have won. Too bad the Vipers picked out so many units.
Perhaps he should have had more vikings.
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You guys flash wouldve done better with HTOMarios mechstyle? It looks solid.
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Dominican Republic34 Posts
On October 12 2013 23:36 Snusmumriken wrote:
You guys flash wouldve done better with HTOMarios mechstyle? It looks solid.
I know man! I was like: "Why isn't he doing that SICK 9 Minute push with 8 Marines, 3 Tanks and 1 scv to his 3rd!" :^)
But on a serious note. I don't think Widow Mines would of worked on that situation.
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United Kingdom31935 Posts
So what do you guys think of mech at the moment? Likeup to what skill level can you play it and besuccesfulwith it.
Im mainly a bio player apart from TvT but really want to know if I could mix it in in a boX and it would be viable.
I like to suprise my friends and I quite like building huge siege tank lines :D
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On October 13 2013 08:06 GumBa wrote:
So what do you guys think of mech at the moment? Likeup to what skill level can you play it and besuccesfulwith it.
Im mainly a bio player apart from TvT but really want to know if I could mix it in in a boX and it would be viable.
I like to suprise my friends and I quite like building huge siege tank lines :D
I'm a Masters mech player who decided to try my hand at bio recently, I got to top diamond on EU and NA and went back to meching, my MMR is back into Masters according to SC2gears so I should be re-promoted soon, here's my take on it:
Mech plays like a whole different race from standard terran bio, it's not something that you can easily pick-up from a couple of build orders and implement it into your gameplay very easily. There's a lot of nuances and midgames involved when you're playing mech that only extensive training can earn you. Everything plays out differently, when/where/how you expand, your windows of vulnerability are different, what you watch out for from your opponent. As mech you have to always be adjusting and fine tuning your unit composition, and due to the slow nature of its production, everything must be thought of ahead of time (whereas with you bio you already know pretty much what your composition and unit ratios are going to look like).
But on the other hand it's way easier mechanically, it's harder on your brain but way easier on your hands.
Honestly, I don't think it's a style for everyone and the adaption from mech to bio isn't something that occurs naturally as both are very different in nature. I don't recommend anyone on playing mech unless you are very passionate about it as it can be quite frustrating.
Honestly as an old school BW player I'm only meching these days because of the hilarious rage it generates from shitty opponents and in hope that Blizzard will somehow improve it or at the very least not make it any worse in LOTV, as I really really dislike the way terran bio operates.
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On October 13 2013 07:00 Kalfos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2013 23:36 Snusmumriken wrote:
You guys flash wouldve done better with HTOMarios mechstyle? It looks solid. But on a serious note. I don't think Widow Mines would of worked on that situation.
Why not?
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Hi Mario, in your guide 2.0 for TvP Mech you mentioned optimal lategame army would be 15 raven, 15 ghost, thors + filler units. In these replays I didn't see any ghosts. Is there a specific reason for dropping ghosts out of composition or do you have a trigger for when to make ghosts? When scouting mass immortal?
I want to try out mech again in TvP, but I can't quite read the games right. Diamond league player here. Thanks for sharing the replays!
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Mario: I am interested to hear your thoughts about your game yesterday when you got crushed by mass immortals. Did he just scout you out without you knowing the transition was coming? Cause I know you use to beat that.
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lets face that the reason mech occasionally succseeds is because opponents havent been playing against it enough. I can guarantee you that if everyone played mech players that go mech right now would lose 70% more games.
Against Bio, timings on forges, upgrades and expansions have been worked out. Just like someone mentioned before, against mech its more of :
"Ill just get some of this, and some immortals, maybe ill expand now, maybe I should have made air" - and the sad thing is- it works out a lot.
someone who goes mech every game has a huge advantage in terms of knowing timings over your opponent.
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On October 13 2013 23:33 weikor wrote:
lets face that the reason mech occasionally succseeds is because opponents havent been playing against it enough. I can guarantee you that if everyone played mech players that go mech right now would lose 70% more games.
Against Bio, timings on forges, upgrades and expansions have been worked out. Just like someone mentioned before, against mech its more of :
"Ill just get some of this, and some immortals, maybe ill expand now, maybe I should have made air" - and the sad thing is- it works out a lot.
someone who goes mech every game has a huge advantage in terms of knowing timings over your opponent.
Yes that is probably very true, but hopefully combined air and ground upgrades as well as a bigger tankbuff than planned (the currently planned buff doesnt do shit) can change that.
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On October 13 2013 23:50 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 23:33 weikor wrote:
lets face that the reason mech occasionally succseeds is because opponents havent been playing against it enough. I can guarantee you that if everyone played mech players that go mech right now would lose 70% more games.
Against Bio, timings on forges, upgrades and expansions have been worked out. Just like someone mentioned before, against mech its more of :
"Ill just get some of this, and some immortals, maybe ill expand now, maybe I should have made air" - and the sad thing is- it works out a lot.
someone who goes mech every game has a huge advantage in terms of knowing timings over your opponent. Yes that is probably very true, but hopefully combined air and ground upgrades as well as a bigger tankbuff than planned (the currently planned buff doesnt do shit) can change that.
I agree as well.
There are just so many economical advantages for pro gamers to go bio that they can not take the risk of losing games trying mech. There are a few pro players that play extremely well with mech. mvp especially. Flash too (though Flash does not always play mech). TheStC. I remember when mvp raped Stephano in the wcs. And I remember several of mvp's games in the GSL where he was dominating sc2. Unfortunately right now bio is more popular. But I can see the advantages of the mech play. And I honestly think in the future we will see more mech players.
The CC first into Hellion-reactor banshee is an extremely powerful build. Given it is executed correctly.
You saw Flash do it vs DRG in the first game Bo3 IEM New York.
~ What will the new tank buff do?
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Hey guys, Im having some trouble in late game TvZ with mech. Once i get past the 30 min mark some zergs like to just mass roach with 3/3. What unit compostition should i have? More thors or seige tanks? Seige tanks are a pain as im only diamond and i sometimes dont get my tanks seiged up b4 roaches charge in unexpectedly. So what unit composition works best against mass roach?
Also what is the best counter to mass ultras (once again past the 30 min mark).In this situation its often 5base terran vs 6+ base zerg (map dependant). I can win the first engagement easily but at this stage of the game zerg has so much gas inc they continually pump out ultras and i cant seem to trade cost efficiently against them. Once again, what unit comp should i have for this situation? Hevay thor or heavy seige tank?
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On October 17 2013 10:21 AlaxWayLaxed wrote:
Hey guys, Im having some trouble in late game TvZ with mech. Once i get past the 30 min mark some zergs like to just mass roach with 3/3. What unit compostition should i have? More thors or seige tanks? Seige tanks are a pain as im only diamond and i sometimes dont get my tanks seiged up b4 roaches charge in unexpectedly. So what unit composition works best against mass roach?
Also what is the best counter to mass ultras (once again past the 30 min mark).In this situation its often 5base terran vs 6+ base zerg (map dependant). I can win the first engagement easily but at this stage of the game zerg has so much gas inc they continually pump out ultras and i cant seem to trade cost efficiently against them. Once again, what unit comp should i have for this situation? Hevay thor or heavy seige tank?
I used to be Diamond until I stopped playing lots of 1v1, but I exclusively mech in TvZ, so what I'm trying to go for during all game is to be as tank-heavy as possible at all times! Of course that will not be an easy task to fulfill as you have to get constant information on the more or less exact unit compositon of your opponent -> tech he is going to get.
The reason is quite simple:
Usually less experienced players tend to go for ling/muta/bling instead of instantly reacting to your game plan, so the first thing to look out for are either really early busts which should reflectable with a few tanks and hellions or busts occurring later with roaches mixed in, way more difficult to hold if not perfectly prepared for it.
So if you're seeing mostly speedlings and no heavy roach production with your hellions/scan (of course depending on map you should constantly try to apply some pressure with at least some of your hellions since they are easily replacable and can keep your opponent in check while you adjust your unit comp or static defenses/take your third etc. in reaction of your scouting information.
Usually lesser Zerg players tend to throw you off with mutalisks which I tend to counter with 2-4 thors, depending on his commitment, of course. Again, counter-harass with hellions can not only buy you tons of time to further tweak your mech ball, but also severely hurt your opponent if he doesn't defend properly.
So if you survived that or the Zerg decides to react properly to your unit comp, there's nothing better to be as tank-heavy as you can get - tanks simply WASTE roaches if you're sieged (so you have to plan ahead depending on map where you wan't to fight (usually I'd say it's way better to choose to fight on his terrain than on yours, time is a really important factor since our production is rather slow and you want him to defend rather than sending small chunks of roaches to your expansions), hellbats add nice damage and meatshield (a few medivacs help, too) to your tanks.
In the end it really comes down to what he decides to throw at you during the game, be it roaches, hydras, vipers, mutas, swarm hosts, ultras and/or brood lords.
What I'm trying to do here is anticipate when a possible tech switch can/will happen to catch me off guard and adjust my composition, but for most Zerg compositions tanks are really good (roaches, hydras, swarm hosts, ultras), so if you tend to have as many tanks as his type of army allows you (during later stages of the game widow mines help you a lot to survive hard switches/protect your precious tanks).
Sorry for that long post, concluding I'd say: Tank > Thor in lots of regards
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I know everything you just said...... So stick to tanks end game. Sweet as, dealing with vipers, spire tech and infestor tech is easy as, Just need to get more efficient in my matches so i can out trade zerg on large maps in long 30-1 hour games
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EPT
