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larse
1611 Posts
On August 11 2013 18:40 BurningRanger wrote: Is there a specific reason, why you didn't mention the splash damage and the range of a sieged tank? Tanks and Immortals fill completely different roles. You can't compare them. Of course they fill different roles. One is a siege unit and the other is the counter... | ||
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Lyyna
France776 Posts
On August 12 2013 01:02 larse wrote: Of course they fill different roles. One is a siege unit and the other is the counter... Then why do you go for a direct comparison of both of them ? Especially since it's totally unrealistic to have a direct immortal vs tank fight..? and for nightsz : you should go on all these "is tvp mech viable" thread, there'll be tons of people like you to share your insane mech experience. This thread is about sharing stuff between people who want to do some serious things with mech | ||
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Taefox
1533 Posts
On August 10 2013 16:41 Nightsz wrote: Mech just simply does not work against a protoss player who knows wtf they're doing. You're putting urself at a huge disadvantage with siege tanks especially when protoss has mobile siege units that don't require siege time. There is a reason when Mech players have to add Ghosts | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
Now however TvZ. Zergs do still remember how to play against mech (unlike protoss), and the matchup is simply autoloss for me if my reaper/hellion/banshee harrasment doesn't kill their third + their natural mineral line + their army, which as you can imagine doesn't happen often. Otherwise I am the rest of the game on the defensive due to mutas. Then the zerg happily expands and brings one of the many combinations which I cannot counter. Swarmhosts for one. If they stay in once place it is doable, but these days zergs figured out they also have legs and you can move them. One reposition missed and you lose a base. Pushing against swarmhosts with mech is not something I succeed at, they simply spawn locusts, unburrow, move back, and burrow again to spawn next wave. Add broods and your tanks need to be unsieged due to broodlings, at which point I simply get overrun. Or vipers, both with swarmhosts and ultras kill me. And if I do move out before 200/200 my army simply gets smashed by zerg army, either roaches or ling/bling/muta. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12052 Posts
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Taefox
1533 Posts
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BurningRanger
Germany303 Posts
A transition from Mech completely to Skyterran is not wise anymore since HotS I think. | ||
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MTAC
103 Posts
That's not mech nor even fun. It'll remove biovsmech in TvT. But make it Thor/HB into skyterran. It won't allow for any biomech comp. But lead to skyterran. It won't lead to mechvP or mechvZ more fun or viable, but a faster skytransition. As long as a mech/biomech army can't push or do damage in midgame (if your opponnent isn't trhowing the game away) theses kinds of changes will just be meh. I don't care if bio is removed from TvT, but it have to make Mech interesting and viable in other MU, or at least biomech comp. This change is just the worst thing they could think of. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
TvZ a bit less, but still nice against broodlord switches, and of course if you get to it battlecruiser transitions. TvT I don't expect much of a change regarding mech vs bio-mech. With bio-mech you also want to stay roughly equal with mech attack upgrades compared to the pure mech player. The plating upgrade was bigger there, since a mech player does get it pretty fast, while for a bio-mech player it is really low priority. | ||
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SoleSteeler
Canada5472 Posts
It'll be fun to try to incorporate ghosts/mines better in the future. Tanks seem pretty useless though. They really need to be buffed (supply down to 2, gas to 100 please!) | ||
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saaaa
Germany419 Posts
On August 10 2013 08:00 saaaa wrote: Hi guys, what do you think about this opening of major against ryung on bel'shir vestige in the wcs round? http://www.twitch.tv/wcs_america/b/431489773 (game starts at around 31:00) I'm not quite sure if i should invest time to learn the build. It's a gas first into fast reactor fac with viking/raven and later cloak. And what do you think about gas first builds with Double CC later in generell? Are they viable as standards? any thoughts about this? | ||
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Aquila-
516 Posts
1) When facing swarmhosts, how many tanks should I get before going into ravens? I am never able to get a 4th base up, I dont have enough gas to have constant tank and raven production. I need to sit in 1 place and defend while he can take the entire map, also he can attack another base with faster units. If I leave tanks at each base I die to swarmhosts. 2) Zerg tech switches. So lets say I face roach hydra viper. Or swarmhosts. I get enough tanks, some vikings or ravens, depending. He attacks, we trade armies, I scan his rallypoint to see that he makes. I dont see anything except some hydras, so I remake tanks. It turns out he had 14 ultras in production and I flat out lose because I have not enough thors and some useless vikings and ravens. Or he can go muta, force thors, then into swarmhost, thors useless, forces tanks, then he uses spire to go broodlord and again my tanks are useless. This switching of tech is killing me so often. Overall it is really frustrating to mech these days, mainly because swarmhosts make me have to turtle, not beeing able to take more bases while zerg takes the entire map and tech switches back and forth. | ||
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vBr
Sweden193 Posts
On August 16 2013 08:48 Aquila- wrote: I am really having trouble with mech TvZ at high master. I want to make it work but always die to the smallest mistake, can anyone give me a tip on the following: 1) When facing swarmhosts, how many tanks should I get before going into ravens? I am never able to get a 4th base up, I dont have enough gas to have constant tank and raven production. I need to sit in 1 place and defend while he can take the entire map, also he can attack another base with faster units. If I leave tanks at each base I die to swarmhosts. 2) Zerg tech switches. So lets say I face roach hydra viper. Or swarmhosts. I get enough tanks, some vikings or ravens, depending. He attacks, we trade armies, I scan his rallypoint to see that he makes. I dont see anything except some hydras, so I remake tanks. It turns out he had 14 ultras in production and I flat out lose because I have not enough thors and some useless vikings and ravens. Or he can go muta, force thors, then into swarmhost, thors useless, forces tanks, then he uses spire to go broodlord and again my tanks are useless. This switching of tech is killing me so often. Overall it is really frustrating to mech these days, mainly because swarmhosts make me have to turtle, not beeing able to take more bases while zerg takes the entire map and tech switches back and forth. 1) Swarmhosts: All dependent on your economy. Mostly, Zergs tend to open Muta into Swarmhost to force as many Thors as possible. The number of Tanks is obviously a countermeasure to the amount of Swarmhost. As many Tanks as possible I say. When you transition to Ravens is, to me, not about Tank-count but rather about how many gases you are mining. Until you are on 4 bases, a Raven transition will limit any gas-required Factory production thus risking defeat against Swarmhost alone. My advice for you is to build as many Tanks as possible until you are safely on 4 base. At that point, you can trade away some supply for Ravens. 2) Tech switches is the bane of mech, but whether he builds Ultra och Roach/Hydra should not really be a big deal for you. While mech is a rather passive playstyle until you have established a minimum of 3 (preferably 4) bases, you shouldn't let him amass a critical amount of gas. Winning a fight matters not if he can remax in a different tech right after (mass muta or mass ultra are generally the most feared options). You need to learn how to count and plan your game after that. If the game is 30-35 ingame minutes in and you just fought for the first time with his hydra/roach army. You won convincingly, what do you do? Unsieging and a-moving across the map is likely the last thing you want to do. At that point, you need to realise that he has banked a SERIOUS amount of gas (5k perhaps) and you can expect an instant maxout incoming. At that point you might want to take another base perhaps or send a small force to take out his 6th base or something like that. The longer you let him accumulate gas, the more scary his remax might become. For this reason, I don't play passive and instead play aggressive until he has enough Swarmhost to force me to bunker down. Ultras you can manage with building placements. Frankly, I don't recall the last time I lost to Ultras. A Muta remax? Well that's tricky. You really need 3-4 Thors in any mech composition and you should already have upgraded range + armour on buildings so that you can throw up an abundance of turrets if required. Scanning is key, the sooner you know - the better. Realise that if he builds 30-35 Mutas after you win a fight, then his gas supply is likely diminished significantly - if you defeat that Muta number, he might just be out of gas after that. | ||
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THEPPLsELBOW
United States190 Posts
On August 21 2013 04:40 vBr wrote: 1) Swarmhosts: All dependent on your economy. Mostly, Zergs tend to open Muta into Swarmhost to force as many Thors as possible. The number of Tanks is obviously a countermeasure to the amount of Swarmhost. As many Tanks as possible I say. When you transition to Ravens is, to me, not about Tank-count but rather about how many gases you are mining. Until you are on 4 bases, a Raven transition will limit any gas-required Factory production thus risking defeat against Swarmhost alone. My advice for you is to build as many Tanks as possible until you are safely on 4 base. At that point, you can trade away some supply for Ravens. 2) Tech switches is the bane of mech, but whether he builds Ultra och Roach/Hydra should not really be a big deal for you. While mech is a rather passive playstyle until you have established a minimum of 3 (preferably 4) bases, you shouldn't let him amass a critical amount of gas. Winning a fight matters not if he can remax in a different tech right after (mass muta or mass ultra are generally the most feared options). You need to learn how to count and plan your game after that. If the game is 30-35 ingame minutes in and you just fought for the first time with his hydra/roach army. You won convincingly, what do you do? Unsieging and a-moving across the map is likely the last thing you want to do. At that point, you need to realise that he has banked a SERIOUS amount of gas (5k perhaps) and you can expect an instant maxout incoming. At that point you might want to take another base perhaps or send a small force to take out his 6th base or something like that. The longer you let him accumulate gas, the more scary his remax might become. For this reason, I don't play passive and instead play aggressive until he has enough Swarmhost to force me to bunker down. Ultras you can manage with building placements. Frankly, I don't recall the last time I lost to Ultras. A Muta remax? Well that's tricky. You really need 3-4 Thors in any mech composition and you should already have upgraded range + armour on buildings so that you can throw up an abundance of turrets if required. Scanning is key, the sooner you know - the better. Realise that if he builds 30-35 Mutas after you win a fight, then his gas supply is likely diminished significantly - if you defeat that Muta number, he might just be out of gas after that. I say don't even get yourself in that sort of situation. I play a very proactive mech. As in, I heavily emphasize banshees. 14CC to hellion banshee into fast 3rd CC is my goto TvZ build. I can 50/50 cancel their third if they only make ling's and queens. If they go roach, I am free to expand early because muta will come waay later. I always take the aggressive 3rd with a PF., and take a super fast 4th around 15 minutes (orbital). Constantly fighting in small engagements coming out 400 resources ahead each fight, until my 4base deathball is at a perfect composition. So I've narrowed down my playstyle for mutas and mass roach/roach hydra. For mutas, always do a timing. HOTS mech vs Muta baneling is way easier. You won't win any battles decisively, but each engagement will always cost zerg more. Keep your first 3 banshees alive they will be invaluable. Start building medivacs. What I love to do is the Ironic drop: 1. WALK 6 to 7 hellbats their 4th while its building. They will send either all their roaches or a big part of their army. 2. Drop 2 thors and 3 banshees and run all your remaining hellions to the third. Try to pick off the third. If you can't, you can boost away. If they have mutas, sac your thors and get a couple of muta kills. Keep the banshees alive cause you ain't building any more of them 3 banshees are perfect at denying 4th's and 5th's. If the mutas go after the thors, your helions are still at their 3rd killing a huge amount of tech. The thing with swarmhosts is that they need a solid economy or else you can just walk around the swarmhosts and do an all in with SCV's while having 4 tanks, turrets plus engineering bay wall to defend your production. While their swarmhosts are too far up to defend their bases. If they leave their swarmhosts, pull your banshees and watch them suffer. Banshees>>>>>swarmhosts. Always get cloak. Always do a prehive timing with ~30 SCV's no matter what their composition. Split off 10-20 supply to hit their most recent/unprotected expansion. You will be floating minerals, you want to make the prehive timing do as much damage as possible. Your macro OC's should finish around the time hive is done anyways, so that you clear up supply for 170 food army. Either they will lose a base before getting hive, or they try to split their army for each of your forces and fight 2 horrible engagements, or try to tackle one before the other. If they tackle your antibase squad (2 medivacs with thors, banshees, and hellbats). Boost the medivacs with thors and run back as far as you can, so your main army can walk all the way to their 3rd across the map unscathed. If they go for your main army. Snipe a hatch, then go to the main and kill all their hive tech structures, if you can get to the spire (probably at natural) and snipe it, easy easy win after that. The trick is always to expand as early as the zerg, and always be aggressive. | ||
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fried_rice
198 Posts
Yeonsu: looks good for mech; EDIT: NVM, ITS FUCKING HORRIBLE Frost: Veto'd after a single match (TvZ), this map seems very stupid and very hard to play mech on; Polar Night: Not sure about this one, it seems to have potential but I'm scared of blink allins on it; I wanna know what the high level mechers have to say about this. EDIT: Ok, so it looks like all these new maps are all very anti-mech/anti-terran, veto'd them all. | ||
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Marcus Arcadia
Philippines92 Posts
I have somehow figured mech in TvP, at least now I can go head-to-head against their deathball provided I have the right units. The problem now is mech TvZ where i'm going up against the faster ling/bling/muta. Although, we have widow mines and thors, I still feel they are not enough. As opposed to bio+mine which is not vulnerable to mutas. | ||
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vBr
Sweden193 Posts
On August 27 2013 17:59 fried_rice wrote: What do you think of the new season maps guys??? Yeonsu: looks good for mech; EDIT: NVM, ITS FUCKING HORRIBLE Frost: Veto'd after a single match (TvZ), this map seems very stupid and very hard to play mech on; Polar Night: Not sure about this one, it seems to have potential but I'm scared of blink allins on it; I wanna know what the high level mechers have to say about this. EDIT: Ok, so it looks like all these new maps are all very anti-mech/anti-terran, veto'd them all. High-Master/GM Terran here. Haven't had a chance to play much at all, but I've checked out the maps. Polar Night: Definitely a keeper. While it might prompt some blink all-ins, it is actually one of the easiest maps to defend a blink all in on. Since the base is so narrow you can just a couple of tanks at your main CC and you will be able to fire everywhere. This map has a really easy third and a semi-easy 4th and that's really all you can ask for. There are some pathways but the map is actually not too open which means you don't have to risk being surrounded too easily. The rocks on the third shouldn't encumber you as much as it will Zergs and Protosses. Yeonsu: This, however, is a map where a blink all-in will be very difficult to defend without serious losses. The map itself is very open which is bad for mech. This is an instant downvote for any mecher. Frost: Tied with Yeonsu for the worst of them all. While the map can be navigated with a mech army, you basically need a planetary for both the third and the fourth to have a chance to keep them. Mech without 6+ gases is very weak and there are like.. 5 pathways to defend if you want to grab a 4th on this map. To sum up - for this season I intend to veto Yeonsu/Frost and Whirlwind. | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
guys, could you post some replays here? I'm mid master meching Terran on EU and I just can't get all this theory into my games working when I play really decent player that knows how to abuse their units and mechanics. I think I have very solid layed down builds, but it just seems very uphill battle from a certain point in game where P and Z start to throw at you superior economy due to them realizing you are playing mech. Thanks in advance. | ||
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Scoobasteve
United States32 Posts
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fried_rice
198 Posts
After playing full on mech at a low masters level since the end of WOL and all of HOTS I gave up on meching to learn bio because it was getting frustrating at times because it feels so unforgiving. As a lot of meching players I don't stellar APM, and playing bio it just seems that bio can be sooo much more powerful than mech but only if you're really fast, it's like the game is like 70%~80% mechanics and it kind of pisses me off as I don't get to do any different stuff. Like every game that I lose I load up the replay and I instantly know why I lost: my multitasking or APM wasn't up to par and that's it. It's kind of fun and all, being cute with drops, having a really mobile army (damn mech is slooooooooow) but it's just getting old very fast. I'm sitting on mid diamond with my bio account, but I'm just so very inconsistent(lack of experience, few games played), when doing placements I beat a masters protoss but lost to a gold zerg. After this ~100game experience I think I want to go back to meching, sure it's "weaker" but I get to do my own BOs, don't have to keep up with the metagame/trends and I get to use units other than Marines and I also get to experience more "strategy" than "real time", since my game sense was always much better than my mechanics. That was my rant guys, thanks to anyone who read it. And back on topic: what are the gosu mechers up to? Havent heard from Lyyna in a while and HTOMario doesn't seem to be streaming as often, we still have the mighty avilo but he isn't meching a lot in TvP these days =[ I need some fresh mech BOs to start again. | ||
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