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On August 02 2013 22:45 Ambre wrote:
Hello !
Master Terran here. I have been playing around with Mech TvP for quite a while now.
I have a question : my style relies heavily on Widow mines. Am I the only one using them ?
Basically, I use mass mines + tanks against most Protoss composition, and if they use colossy, I switch to tanks + vikings. I do build hellbats, but it seems really weird to me that most terrans just don't seem to rely on mines as much as I do. Why is that ?
Hmm, I have tried heavy WM playstyle, but the problem I usually run into is that mines either die too fast before even doing something, or they detonate on few Zealots randomly charging towards my Tanks and then there is just Immortals/Colossus left vs my Tanks and that means game over.
If you place your Mines too far away from your Tanks, Protoss will snipe them, or storm them. If you place them close to your Tanks, they will detonate and cause a lot of friendly fire, etc..
It just doesn't seem too reliable. But if you have great success with this strat in Masters, great. You might share some ideas here, maybe you do something differently. But for me, Mines stopped working as soon as I hit Master league.
How do you position your Mines, Tanks and Hellbats?
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I can't say I have a great success with this style, but I really enjoy it and, most importantly, I feel like I have endless room for improvement.
What you are saying is correct. What I do is :
- Tanks and Hellbats are spread (not too much actually, I don't focus on that too much, since the most important part is the WM micro)
- I use a small portion of my Widow Mines burrowed, just to scare the Protoss away
- I keep a huge portion of my Mines in the back (near my tanks)
- If the protoss manages to kill the defensive (burrowed mines), I replace them
- My goal is to force the engagement (with Tanks and Hellbats getting closer to the Protoss army), and when it finally happens, I just rush with my mines (A LOT of them) and burrow while the Protoss tries to kill my Tanks/hellbats.
It's hard to explain, but I have some success with it, and most of all I think I can play on a equal footing with protoss lategame (I haven't played bio for ages...)
I am still learning and working on it though, I am not doing it nearly as well as I would like.
Another big thing :
With this style, I actually switch my army composition a lot. For exemple, if the engagement I just described was not good enough and the Protoss killed most of my army, usually I know that he won't have any observers with his counter-attack. So I just build a ton of mines (30+) and I'm safe again. Also, I play around a lot with banshee/vikings against colossus/HT/low stalkers comp. Sometimes, my army has no WM, but the next minute I have like 30.
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@Amber: It wll be great if u could provide some reps of ur playstyle in TvP  Since u're Master league I think it helps a lot of people
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On August 02 2013 17:52 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 15:52 larse wrote:On July 25 2013 15:45 Everlong wrote:This is the second time you post some random TvP where Protoss player happen to outplay Terran going mech and state that those games demonstrate the biggest weakness of mech. Either be more specific, or don't do this. I could show you games where Terran wins going mech and say it demonstrates the biggest strength of mech. Could this be any less relevant? 99% of the mech TvP VODs in this thread is posted by me. And I have posted more than 100 VODs of Mech TvP. I can say no one has contributed more mech TvP VOD than me. This is a resource thread, so I provide the VODs. The following was just my opinion. You don't need to accept it. Sorry, may I ask why haven't you posted here VODs of Loner winning several matches with mech?
I am reluctant to post those games because they are on youku, which is a not a good website, and they are cast in Chinese. If you know other twitch or youtube links and cast in English, it would be great.
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A blue post regarding Blizzard's silent on mech
http://www.blizzposts.com/topic/217458/blizzard-silent-about-hots-mech
though it's very PR
It would be pretty cool if they let the community know what is going on with mech...are they doing anything? Or are they content that the HOTS expansion that was meant to promote mech play has essentially done the opposite and deterred it even further?
A lot of players would like to hear something...anything...
A lot of Terrans would love to hear that they are working to make it viable (especially TvP).
Sincerely,
Your entire Terran player base that bought HOTS.
I know that what I'm about to say isn't necessarily the answer you're looking for, but I thought I'd stop by and provide a little transparency on how we as a Community team operate in regards to feedback and balance concerns such as this. We are constantly compiling feedback found on the forums, fan sites, and communities like Reddit and Team Liquid and relaying the information to our development teams. While we may not have responses to provide for each of these threads, know that the development team talks about these things internally, weighs the pros and cons of potential changes to see how they might affect all matchups in the game, and analyzes the associated data on a daily basis. As soon as more information is available, rest assured that we'll provide an update either on the forums or in a blog post.
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On August 02 2013 18:40 Everlong wrote:
I mean, there must be a reason if Korean pros go Hellbat/Thor when meching TvP. Agreed?
2 out of 3 games Koreans have played mech were Tank based. The only player that has any sort of success with mech is playing Tank based (Strelok).
Thors can not cover any meaningful area, are slower then Tanks, rebuild slower and are countered by much the same units. They are a lot easier to use though. Mass Thor has 2 places: 1) all in timing attack 2) after you essentially win, late game 1a comp.
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On August 04 2013 02:26 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 18:40 Everlong wrote:
I mean, there must be a reason if Korean pros go Hellbat/Thor when meching TvP. Agreed? 2 out of 3 games Koreans have played mech were Tank based. The only player that has any sort of success with mech is playing Tank based (Strelok). Thors can not cover any meaningful area, are slower then Tanks, rebuild slower and are countered by much the same units. They are a lot easier to use though. Mass Thor has 2 places: 1) all in timing attack 2) after you essentially win, late game 1a comp.
The only player? <.<
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Yeah , he's wrong, there is Avilo too.
:p
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He is not wrong. Strelok is the only mech player with heavy tank use who advance the farthest in a major tournament.
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What about getting both Thors and Tanks?
Usually I don't go over 8 tanks in TvP because I find it's too easy to get caught out of position and losing your entire army...but on the other hand Thors aren't very good until you have large numbers of them >.< I'm still not sure which is better but I find myself having more success with a Thor based army and playing for the really late game.
Strelok uses a lot of tanks but we have to keep in mind he's relies alot on timings, especially in the mid-game, in which case I think mass Tanks is better.
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On August 10 2013 03:35 fried_rice wrote:
What about getting both Thors and Tanks?
Usually I don't go over 8 tanks in TvP because I find it's too easy to get caught out of position and losing your entire army...but on the other hand Thors aren't very good until you have large numbers of them >.< I'm still not sure which is better but I find myself having more success with a Thor based army and playing for the really late game.
Strelok uses a lot of tanks but we have to keep in mind he's relies alot on timings, especially in the mid-game, in which case I think mass Tanks is better.
Thor Tank is worse than Hellbat Tank. They are mostly only useful when Protoss goes air. If Protoss is pure ground army, don't build thor.
Hellbat, tank, ghost is the standard, well-proven viable TvP mech composition, if Protoss goes ground. Some one add viking, some one add banshee, some one add raven to that ground army.
If Protoss goes air, the composition should be ghost, widow mine, thor, viking, raven.
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On August 09 2013 23:41 HTOMario wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 02:26 Sapphire.lux wrote:On August 02 2013 18:40 Everlong wrote:
I mean, there must be a reason if Korean pros go Hellbat/Thor when meching TvP. Agreed? 2 out of 3 games Koreans have played mech were Tank based. The only player that has any sort of success with mech is playing Tank based (Strelok). Thors can not cover any meaningful area, are slower then Tanks, rebuild slower and are countered by much the same units. They are a lot easier to use though. Mass Thor has 2 places: 1) all in timing attack 2) after you essentially win, late game 1a comp. The only player? <.<
As far as tournaments go i think so. Though i don't know how he's doing recently. I know you are doing great on ladder and i watch some of your VODS on youtube ♥, but it's not the same thing as tournaments.
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On August 10 2013 03:35 fried_rice wrote:
What about getting both Thors and Tanks?
Usually I don't go over 8 tanks in TvP because I find it's too easy to get caught out of position and losing your entire army...but on the other hand Thors aren't very good until you have large numbers of them >.< I'm still not sure which is better but I find myself having more success with a Thor based army and playing for the really late game.
Strelok uses a lot of tanks but we have to keep in mind he's relies alot on timings, especially in the mid-game, in which case I think mass Tanks is better.
All strategy does. Depending on what your build is and what you scout, sometimes you have to attack before you get 200/200. Mech is not "tower defense" like so many people treat it. Having the ability to punish economic greed or too fast tech or both, are aspects that have to be present in any mech build (unless you yorself are doing some sort of eco/ tech greed build), otherwise you end up playing 25+min games all the time regardless of what the opponent does.
This "tower defense" mentality in games also becomes very poor the better the opponents are because you give them to much time to pick you apart. A "insert league" Protoss will smash his head against a siege army behind a choke and rage quit that mech is IMBA good; a pro will pick you apart slowly but surely.
With that said, it is very hard to punish stuff from Protoss because of mech being bad/ immortal too good/ Browder hating on BW, etc.
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On August 10 2013 06:05 larse wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 03:35 fried_rice wrote:
What about getting both Thors and Tanks?
Usually I don't go over 8 tanks in TvP because I find it's too easy to get caught out of position and losing your entire army...but on the other hand Thors aren't very good until you have large numbers of them >.< I'm still not sure which is better but I find myself having more success with a Thor based army and playing for the really late game.
Strelok uses a lot of tanks but we have to keep in mind he's relies alot on timings, especially in the mid-game, in which case I think mass Tanks is better. Thor Tank is worse than Hellbat Tank. They are mostly only useful when Protoss goes air. If Protoss is pure ground army, don't build thor. Hellbat, tank, ghost is the standard, well-proven viable TvP mech composition, if Protoss goes ground. Some one add viking, some one add banshee, some one add raven to that ground army. If Protoss goes air, the composition should be ghost, widow mine, thor, viking, raven.
Even versus ground, a few (like 4) thors are always good to have for the tanking power (and thors + mass repair can save your ass more often than you think)
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Hi guys,
what do you think about this opening of major against ryung on bel'shir vestige in the wcs round?
http://www.twitch.tv/wcs_america/b/431489773
(game starts at around 31:00)
I'm not quite sure if i should invest time to learn the build. It's a gas first into fast reactor fac with viking/raven and later cloak.
And what do you think about gas first builds with Double CC later in generell? Are they viable as standards?
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On August 10 2013 07:49 Lyyna wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 06:05 larse wrote:On August 10 2013 03:35 fried_rice wrote:
What about getting both Thors and Tanks?
Usually I don't go over 8 tanks in TvP because I find it's too easy to get caught out of position and losing your entire army...but on the other hand Thors aren't very good until you have large numbers of them >.< I'm still not sure which is better but I find myself having more success with a Thor based army and playing for the really late game.
Strelok uses a lot of tanks but we have to keep in mind he's relies alot on timings, especially in the mid-game, in which case I think mass Tanks is better. Thor Tank is worse than Hellbat Tank. They are mostly only useful when Protoss goes air. If Protoss is pure ground army, don't build thor. Hellbat, tank, ghost is the standard, well-proven viable TvP mech composition, if Protoss goes ground. Some one add viking, some one add banshee, some one add raven to that ground army. If Protoss goes air, the composition should be ghost, widow mine, thor, viking, raven. Even versus ground, a few (like 4) thors are always good to have for the tanking power (and thors + mass repair can save your ass more often than you think)
I dont like it. It's worse than the tanking power of 3 hellbats and it's worse than the fire power of 2 tanks. All are same supply. If it's pure ground, I simply won't add a single thor.
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Mech just simply does not work against a protoss player who knows wtf they're doing. You're putting urself at a huge disadvantage with siege tanks especially when protoss has mobile siege units that don't require siege time.
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On August 10 2013 16:41 Nightsz wrote:
Mech just simply does not work against a protoss player who knows wtf they're doing. You're putting urself at a huge disadvantage with siege tanks especially when protoss has mobile siege units that don't require siege time.
Yep the immortal is basically a mobile siege tank but 100 times better.
Immortal vs Tank
Same damage (50+5+5+5). 2 times faster attack speed. Don't need to siege.
2 times the HP.
It's ridiculous.
This unit basically ruins the game.
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On August 11 2013 13:26 larse wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 16:41 Nightsz wrote:
Mech just simply does not work against a protoss player who knows wtf they're doing. You're putting urself at a huge disadvantage with siege tanks especially when protoss has mobile siege units that don't require siege time.
Yep the immortal is basically a mobile siege tank but 100 times better. Immortal vs Tank Same damage (50+5+5+5). 2 times faster attack speed. Don't need to siege. 2 times the HP. It's ridiculous. This unit basically ruins the game.
Is there a specific reason, why you didn't mention the splash damage and the range of a sieged tank? Tanks and Immortals fill completely different roles. You can't compare them.
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EPT
