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OSL Semi-Finals
Bomber vs Rain Game 2
Mech TvP
http://www.twitch.tv/ogn_kor/b/439098892?t=32m44s
Bomber was the third person ever to use mech in TvP in Korea since HOTS (vs Rain Game 2), beside Samsung Kop and Woongjin Light in SPL. What do you think might be the reason to use such a baller strategy in semifinals?
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United Kingdom12052 Posts
On August 02 2013 05:47 larse wrote:OSL Semi-Finals Bomber vs Rain Game 2 Mech TvP http://www.twitch.tv/ogn_kor/b/439098892?t=32m44sBomber was the third person ever to use mech in TvP in Korea since HOTS (vs Rain Game 2), beside Samsung Kop and Woongjin Light in SPL. What do you think might be the reason to use such a baller strategy in semifinals?
Well Rain said a lot of players have been using it in practice so maybe it's finally getting support?
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On August 02 2013 05:47 larse wrote:OSL Semi-Finals Bomber vs Rain Game 2 Mech TvP http://www.twitch.tv/ogn_kor/b/439098892?t=32m44sBomber was the third person ever to use mech in TvP in Korea since HOTS (vs Rain Game 2), beside Samsung Kop and Woongjin Light in SPL. What do you think might be the reason to use such a baller strategy in semifinals?
Mech timings can be brutal if Protoss doesn't suspect them and tries to tech everything at once, but Rain was too well prepared and his game plan was too solid.
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Except heavy widow mine, I can't think of anyway to win Rain's harassment strategy with mech
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On August 02 2013 06:30 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 05:47 larse wrote:OSL Semi-Finals Bomber vs Rain Game 2 Mech TvP http://www.twitch.tv/ogn_kor/b/439098892?t=32m44sBomber was the third person ever to use mech in TvP in Korea since HOTS (vs Rain Game 2), beside Samsung Kop and Woongjin Light in SPL. What do you think might be the reason to use such a baller strategy in semifinals? Mech timings can be brutal if Protoss doesn't suspect them and tries to tech everything at once, but Rain was too well prepared and his game plan was too solid.
I gotta say too bombers control was pretty bad. He had like 4 medivacs he went without them im pretty sure you drop ontop of the protoss army with those and then they take out all the immortal shields ect. He ate storms too thats terrible. People say you cant run away from them well i mean you kind've can.
I think if bomber was willing to do it in a pro match too he must've had a decent win rate with practice partners / ladder.
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Can anyone point me to a mech vs mech guide? What are the general strategies and tactics for playing mech, especially mech vs mech Tvt? TL has a bunch of guides dedicated specifically to certain builds and how to play them, but I'm looking more for general mindsets.
For example, for marine tank mirrors I would say you have to constantly be moving your army and try to maneuver your way around the opponents army to gain advantageous positions. From there try to shell expos, constantly drop to tax his multitasking and forcing him to unsiege, keep map control and for the most part expand aggressively.
I have none of that game sense in mech vs mech, especially moving the army and knowing how far to extend or stay back. It feels like mech has more of a "spoon", constraining style that I never mastered as I am deathly afraid of doom drops. I almost never use hellbats either. I use forgg's mech build which emphasizes heavy hellion usage.
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On August 02 2013 12:33 halpimcat wrote:
Can anyone point me to a mech vs mech guide? What are the general strategies and tactics for playing mech, especially mech vs mech Tvt? TL has a bunch of guides dedicated specifically to certain builds and how to play them, but I'm looking more for general mindsets.
For example, for marine tank mirrors I would say you have to constantly be moving your army and try to maneuver your way around the opponents army to gain advantageous positions. From there try to shell expos, constantly drop to tax his multitasking and forcing him to unsiege, keep map control and for the most part expand aggressively.
I have none of that game sense in mech vs mech, especially moving the army and knowing how far to extend or stay back. It feels like mech has more of a "spoon", constraining style that I never mastered as I am deathly afraid of doom drops. I almost never use hellbats either. I use forgg's mech build which emphasizes heavy hellion usage.
Mech vs mech most of the times is a critical mass of tanks and hellions/hellbats and who have the best position/vision in the map (with vikings normally) will win. And who switch faster/better into BC have a nice point in the match xD
U can see Avilo's stream who always play in mech wiht personal builds and mass ravens its very curious.
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If harstem would have payed more attention to the hellions at 7:12:20 the game would have been over alot faster. A single FF on the ramp and he wouldnt have allowed Dayshi to decimate his mineral line.
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On August 02 2013 17:18 Sissors wrote:If harstem would have payed more attention to the hellions at 7:12:20 the game would have been over alot faster. A single FF on the ramp and he wouldnt have allowed Dayshi to decimate his mineral line.
This "Tank" based play I feel can only work if you really manage to kill a lot of workers. I think "Thor" based mech as shown by Bomber vs Rain is way more viable. Since at this point it is pretty obvious Blizzard hates and will not buff Tank in any reasonable way, I think the future of mech (if there is some) is "Thor" based mech.
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On July 25 2013 15:52 larse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 15:45 Everlong wrote:This is the second time you post some random TvP where Protoss player happen to outplay Terran going mech and state that those games demonstrate the biggest weakness of mech. Either be more specific, or don't do this. I could show you games where Terran wins going mech and say it demonstrates the biggest strength of mech. Could this be any less relevant? 99% of the mech TvP VODs in this thread is posted by me. And I have posted more than 100 VODs of Mech TvP. I can say no one has contributed more mech TvP VOD than me. This is a resource thread, so I provide the VODs. The following was just my opinion. You don't need to accept it.
Sorry, may I ask why haven't you posted here VODs of Loner winning several matches with mech?
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On August 02 2013 17:18 Sissors wrote:If harstem would have payed more attention to the hellions at 7:12:20 the game would have been over alot faster. A single FF on the ramp and he wouldnt have allowed Dayshi to decimate his mineral line.
You could say the same about Dayshi not reacting properly to all those Oracles. Those did a lot more eco damage. A few Missile Turrets would have been a lot cheaper than all the lost SCVs. Without those SCV losses he'd have been in a lot better position.
Apart from that I like the Hellions, because I think people kind of build too many Hellbats nowadays.
But imo he should have started atleast some Tank production earlier. He looses way too many Hellions.
Then later he produces Tanks, but forgets about the Hellions to protect those. And even later he has a load of Hellions with the Tanks, but doesn't have them in front of the Tanks to protect those from the Immortals. And finally he just refuses to build any Hellions or Hellbats like at all. Widow Mines do not protect Tanks well, because they don't block. And in this case they get killed by Storms over and over, because the mines are so far forward that the Tanks don't protect them. Also, well... he got some Ghosts, but I can't remember seeing any EMP at all. Either clear the Immo Shields or get rid of the Storm threat, but neither happened.
So tbh... this was a rather bad Mech attempt imo. It looked a little bit like Dayshi didn't know what to do after the mass Hellions.
And because it's been mentioned... Bomber vs Rain, Game 2... Thor/Hellbat... this is such a bad idea imho. It may be ok as some kind of 2 base all-in, but apart from that it just doesn't work against Protoss. Both Thors and Hellbats are slow as shit, but lack the range advantage that Tanks give you. It's like playing Bio without Stim and with a Timewarp bubble always around you.
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On August 02 2013 18:29 BurningRanger wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 17:18 Sissors wrote:If harstem would have payed more attention to the hellions at 7:12:20 the game would have been over alot faster. A single FF on the ramp and he wouldnt have allowed Dayshi to decimate his mineral line. You could say the same about Dayshi not reacting properly to all those Oracles. Those did a lot more eco damage. A few Missile Turrets would have been a lot cheaper than all the lost SCVs. Without those SCV losses he'd have been in a lot better position. Apart from that I like the Hellions, because I think people kind of build too many Hellbats nowadays. But imo he should have started atleast some Tank production earlier. He looses way too many Hellions. Then later he produces Tanks, but forgets about the Hellions to protect those. And even later he has a load of Hellions with the Tanks, but doesn't have them in front of the Tanks to protect those from the Immortals. And finally he just refuses to build any Hellions or Hellbats like at all. Widow Mines do not protect Tanks well, because they don't block. And in this case they get killed by Storms over and over, because the mines are so far forward that the Tanks don't protect them. Also, well... he got some Ghosts, but I can't remember seeing any EMP at all. Either clear the Immo Shields or get rid of the Storm threat, but neither happened. So tbh... this was a rather bad Mech attempt imo. It looked a little bit like Dayshi didn't know what to do after the mass Hellions. And because it's been mentioned... Bomber vs Rain, Game 2... Thor/Hellbat... this is such a bad idea imho. It may be ok as some kind of 2 base all-in, but apart from that it just doesn't work against Protoss. Both Thors and Hellbats are slow as shit, but lack the range advantage that Tanks give you. It's like playing Bio without Stim and with a Timewarp bubble always around you.
May I ask, do you have any argumnets why Thor/Hellbat is such a bad idea besides " it just doesn't work against Protoss", or "both are slow as shit"?
Range advantage is cool, but it's not so cool anymore when you have 20 Zealots flanking your Tanks with charge, or 10 Immortals marching forward barely losing any HP, or range 15 Tempest laughting at your Tanks. To fight Colossus, you have Vikings. Also, you can surely make like 4-5 Tanks to snipe HT, hold ground vs Colossus, or siege their expansion. Not to mention that Tanks can't shoot up. I mean, there must be a reason if Korean pros go Hellbat/Thor when meching TvP. Agreed?
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On August 02 2013 18:40 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 18:29 BurningRanger wrote:On August 02 2013 17:18 Sissors wrote:If harstem would have payed more attention to the hellions at 7:12:20 the game would have been over alot faster. A single FF on the ramp and he wouldnt have allowed Dayshi to decimate his mineral line. You could say the same about Dayshi not reacting properly to all those Oracles. Those did a lot more eco damage. A few Missile Turrets would have been a lot cheaper than all the lost SCVs. Without those SCV losses he'd have been in a lot better position. Apart from that I like the Hellions, because I think people kind of build too many Hellbats nowadays. But imo he should have started atleast some Tank production earlier. He looses way too many Hellions. Then later he produces Tanks, but forgets about the Hellions to protect those. And even later he has a load of Hellions with the Tanks, but doesn't have them in front of the Tanks to protect those from the Immortals. And finally he just refuses to build any Hellions or Hellbats like at all. Widow Mines do not protect Tanks well, because they don't block. And in this case they get killed by Storms over and over, because the mines are so far forward that the Tanks don't protect them. Also, well... he got some Ghosts, but I can't remember seeing any EMP at all. Either clear the Immo Shields or get rid of the Storm threat, but neither happened. So tbh... this was a rather bad Mech attempt imo. It looked a little bit like Dayshi didn't know what to do after the mass Hellions. And because it's been mentioned... Bomber vs Rain, Game 2... Thor/Hellbat... this is such a bad idea imho. It may be ok as some kind of 2 base all-in, but apart from that it just doesn't work against Protoss. Both Thors and Hellbats are slow as shit, but lack the range advantage that Tanks give you. It's like playing Bio without Stim and with a Timewarp bubble always around you. May I ask, do you have any argumnets why Thor/Hellbat is such a bad idea besides " it just doesn't work against Protoss", or "both are slow as shit"? Range advantage is cool, but it's not so cool anymore when you have 20 Zealots flanking your Tanks with charge, or 10 Immortals marching forward barely losing any HP, or range 15 Tempest laughting at your Tanks. To fight Colossus, you have Vikings. Also, you can surely make like 4-5 Tanks to snipe HT, hold ground vs Colossus, or siege their expansion. Not to mention that Tanks can't shoot up. I mean, there must be a reason if Korean pros go Hellbat/Thor when meching TvP. Agreed?
My argument, why Thor/Hellbat is a bad idea against Protoss is that it has the same problems as Tank centric Mech without the range advantage of it. Without Tanks the Protoss can basically kite you forever with Stalkers, Colossi and Immortals. Colossi have the range advantage over Thors and Hellbats and none of the two have the speed to close in. Immortals and Stalkers both have the range advantage over Hellbats and at least the Stalkers have the speed to kite them. So you actually need to protect the Hellbats with the Thors (which is stupid enough), but that opens up the Thors to the Immortals. With quite a bunch of Stalkers on Protoss side, you can't even drop the Hellbats onto the Protoss army.
On your point about Zealots flanking and Immos marching forward to the Tanks. That's exactly what I meant Dayshi did wrong. He didn't protect the Tanks from such stuff. You should siege up and then keep the Hellions/Hellbats nearby to keep Zealots away and to block Immortals from getting close enough to the tanks to shoot at them. It's the same concept as with Zealots and Colossi. The Zealots are the meatshields to keep anything away from the Colossi, while those dish out the damage.
As you mentioned Tempests laughing at Tanks... they laugh at Thors, too. Tempests have the same speed as Thors, so they can kite them a little... atleast to the next cliff. Against Tempests you need Vikings, no matter if with Tanks or Thors.
As I said, the only reason I see, why a Pro would go Thor/Hellbat against Protoss, is some kind of 2 base all-in.
Edit: Another thing just popped up in my head. Protoss can even throw Forcefields in front of the Thor/Hellbat army. Hellbats can't break them when they're in the front and are fodder for Immos and Stalkers. If the Thors come fore to break the FFs, they're again vulnerable to Immo shots (not to mention that they have to crawl through the Hellbats first). With Tanks you have the range advantage, so you don't care about FFs.
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On August 02 2013 19:49 BurningRanger wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 18:40 Everlong wrote:On August 02 2013 18:29 BurningRanger wrote:On August 02 2013 17:18 Sissors wrote:If harstem would have payed more attention to the hellions at 7:12:20 the game would have been over alot faster. A single FF on the ramp and he wouldnt have allowed Dayshi to decimate his mineral line. You could say the same about Dayshi not reacting properly to all those Oracles. Those did a lot more eco damage. A few Missile Turrets would have been a lot cheaper than all the lost SCVs. Without those SCV losses he'd have been in a lot better position. Apart from that I like the Hellions, because I think people kind of build too many Hellbats nowadays. But imo he should have started atleast some Tank production earlier. He looses way too many Hellions. Then later he produces Tanks, but forgets about the Hellions to protect those. And even later he has a load of Hellions with the Tanks, but doesn't have them in front of the Tanks to protect those from the Immortals. And finally he just refuses to build any Hellions or Hellbats like at all. Widow Mines do not protect Tanks well, because they don't block. And in this case they get killed by Storms over and over, because the mines are so far forward that the Tanks don't protect them. Also, well... he got some Ghosts, but I can't remember seeing any EMP at all. Either clear the Immo Shields or get rid of the Storm threat, but neither happened. So tbh... this was a rather bad Mech attempt imo. It looked a little bit like Dayshi didn't know what to do after the mass Hellions. And because it's been mentioned... Bomber vs Rain, Game 2... Thor/Hellbat... this is such a bad idea imho. It may be ok as some kind of 2 base all-in, but apart from that it just doesn't work against Protoss. Both Thors and Hellbats are slow as shit, but lack the range advantage that Tanks give you. It's like playing Bio without Stim and with a Timewarp bubble always around you. May I ask, do you have any argumnets why Thor/Hellbat is such a bad idea besides " it just doesn't work against Protoss", or "both are slow as shit"? Range advantage is cool, but it's not so cool anymore when you have 20 Zealots flanking your Tanks with charge, or 10 Immortals marching forward barely losing any HP, or range 15 Tempest laughting at your Tanks. To fight Colossus, you have Vikings. Also, you can surely make like 4-5 Tanks to snipe HT, hold ground vs Colossus, or siege their expansion. Not to mention that Tanks can't shoot up. I mean, there must be a reason if Korean pros go Hellbat/Thor when meching TvP. Agreed? My argument, why Thor/Hellbat is a bad idea against Protoss is that it has the same problems as Tank centric Mech without the range advantage of it. Without Tanks the Protoss can basically kite you forever with Stalkers, Colossi and Immortals. Colossi have the range advantage over Thors and Hellbats and none of the two have the speed to close in. Immortals and Stalkers both have the range advantage over Hellbats and at least the Stalkers have the speed to kite them. So you actually need to protect the Hellbats with the Thors (which is stupid enough), but that opens up the Thors to the Immortals. With quite a bunch of Stalkers on Protoss side, you can't even drop the Hellbats onto the Protoss army. On your point about Zealots flanking and Immos marching forward to the Tanks. That's exactly what I meant Dayshi did wrong. He didn't protect the Tanks from such stuff. You should siege up and then keep the Hellions/Hellbats nearby to keep Zealots away and to block Immortals from getting close enough to the tanks to shoot at them. It's the same concept as with Zealots and Colossi. The Zealots are the meatshields to keep anything away from the Colossi, while those dish out the damage. As you mentioned Tempests laughing at Tanks... they laugh at Thors, too. Tempests have the same speed as Thors, so they can kite them a little... atleast to the next cliff. Against Tempests you need Vikings, no matter if with Tanks or Thors. As I said, the only reason I see, why a Pro would go Thor/Hellbat against Protoss, is some kind of 2 base all-in.
Apparently you didn't read the part where I state that you can (and you should) make at least few Tanks to retain the range advantage. If you go Hellbat/Thor as a bulk of your army, it doesn't mean building Tanks is forbidden. 3-4 Tanks is enough to hold ground against Colossi/Stalkers or anything Protoss has to kite you with. But at the same time, you don't risk being overwhelmed by Zealots/Immortals/Archons so badly (you need Ghosts anyways, obviously). You don't risk being caught unsieged or surprised by air switch. Believe it or not, Thors do better than Tanks against Voidrays or Tempests. Also, you can repair Thors with SCVs whereas Tanks die instantly.
So by going Hellbat/Thor + few Tanks as a support instead of pure Hellbat/Tank, you have range advangate, more durable army, more mobility and at least some anti-air. Sounds good to me..
Also, Colossi or Stalkers are not the problem as we all know. It's Immortals and air. So I would gladly trade my range advantage for the chance of not being slaughtered by units designed to hard counter Tanks anyways.
edit: I'd say if you face Protoss that is making Sentries against mech, your chances of winning are way higher then going Bio.
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On August 02 2013 20:10 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 19:49 BurningRanger wrote:On August 02 2013 18:40 Everlong wrote:On August 02 2013 18:29 BurningRanger wrote:On August 02 2013 17:18 Sissors wrote:If harstem would have payed more attention to the hellions at 7:12:20 the game would have been over alot faster. A single FF on the ramp and he wouldnt have allowed Dayshi to decimate his mineral line. You could say the same about Dayshi not reacting properly to all those Oracles. Those did a lot more eco damage. A few Missile Turrets would have been a lot cheaper than all the lost SCVs. Without those SCV losses he'd have been in a lot better position. Apart from that I like the Hellions, because I think people kind of build too many Hellbats nowadays. But imo he should have started atleast some Tank production earlier. He looses way too many Hellions. Then later he produces Tanks, but forgets about the Hellions to protect those. And even later he has a load of Hellions with the Tanks, but doesn't have them in front of the Tanks to protect those from the Immortals. And finally he just refuses to build any Hellions or Hellbats like at all. Widow Mines do not protect Tanks well, because they don't block. And in this case they get killed by Storms over and over, because the mines are so far forward that the Tanks don't protect them. Also, well... he got some Ghosts, but I can't remember seeing any EMP at all. Either clear the Immo Shields or get rid of the Storm threat, but neither happened. So tbh... this was a rather bad Mech attempt imo. It looked a little bit like Dayshi didn't know what to do after the mass Hellions. And because it's been mentioned... Bomber vs Rain, Game 2... Thor/Hellbat... this is such a bad idea imho. It may be ok as some kind of 2 base all-in, but apart from that it just doesn't work against Protoss. Both Thors and Hellbats are slow as shit, but lack the range advantage that Tanks give you. It's like playing Bio without Stim and with a Timewarp bubble always around you. May I ask, do you have any argumnets why Thor/Hellbat is such a bad idea besides " it just doesn't work against Protoss", or "both are slow as shit"? Range advantage is cool, but it's not so cool anymore when you have 20 Zealots flanking your Tanks with charge, or 10 Immortals marching forward barely losing any HP, or range 15 Tempest laughting at your Tanks. To fight Colossus, you have Vikings. Also, you can surely make like 4-5 Tanks to snipe HT, hold ground vs Colossus, or siege their expansion. Not to mention that Tanks can't shoot up. I mean, there must be a reason if Korean pros go Hellbat/Thor when meching TvP. Agreed? My argument, why Thor/Hellbat is a bad idea against Protoss is that it has the same problems as Tank centric Mech without the range advantage of it. Without Tanks the Protoss can basically kite you forever with Stalkers, Colossi and Immortals. Colossi have the range advantage over Thors and Hellbats and none of the two have the speed to close in. Immortals and Stalkers both have the range advantage over Hellbats and at least the Stalkers have the speed to kite them. So you actually need to protect the Hellbats with the Thors (which is stupid enough), but that opens up the Thors to the Immortals. With quite a bunch of Stalkers on Protoss side, you can't even drop the Hellbats onto the Protoss army. On your point about Zealots flanking and Immos marching forward to the Tanks. That's exactly what I meant Dayshi did wrong. He didn't protect the Tanks from such stuff. You should siege up and then keep the Hellions/Hellbats nearby to keep Zealots away and to block Immortals from getting close enough to the tanks to shoot at them. It's the same concept as with Zealots and Colossi. The Zealots are the meatshields to keep anything away from the Colossi, while those dish out the damage. As you mentioned Tempests laughing at Tanks... they laugh at Thors, too. Tempests have the same speed as Thors, so they can kite them a little... atleast to the next cliff. Against Tempests you need Vikings, no matter if with Tanks or Thors. As I said, the only reason I see, why a Pro would go Thor/Hellbat against Protoss, is some kind of 2 base all-in. Apparently you didn't read the part where I state that you can (and you should) make at least few Tanks to retain the range advantage. If you go Hellbat/Thor as a bulk of your army, it doesn't mean building Tanks is forbidden. 3-4 Tanks is enough to hold ground against Colossus/Stalkers or anything Protoss has to kite you with. But at the same time, you don't risk being overwhelmed by Zealots/Immortals/Archons so badly (you need Ghosts anyways, obviously). You don't risk being caught unsieged or surprised by air switch. Believe it or not, Thors do better than Tanks against Voidrays or Tempests. Also, you can repair Thors with SCVs whereas Tanks die instantly. So by going Hellbat/Thor + few Tanks as a support instead of pure Hellbat/Tank, you have range advangate, more durable army, more mobility and at least some anti-air. Sounds good to me..
Well ok, you mentioned adding a few Tanks, while I was talking about this specific case of Bomber going pure Thor/Hellbat (without any Tanks).
And please don't talk like I didn't know Tanks can't shoot up. I'm well aware of the fact that Thors are better against Voidrays/Tempests than Tanks. Actually, I usually add a few Thors to my Tank/Hellion/Hellbat army too, to have some anti-air and some beefiness, just like you would add a few Tanks for the range.
So the main question here would actually be "more Tanks or more Thors?" The answer is very clear: it depends 
Against a ground based Protoss, imo Tanks are better, because they melt the Protoss army way faster. Yes Thors can take more damage, but they also have to, because the Protoss army survives a lot longer and therefor does more damage to you.
Against Skytoss certainly Thors are better for the obvious reason (above). In that case I'd also recommend to stop producing Hellions/Hellbats and get Widowmines from the reactored Faxes. But you'll have to get mass Vikings still.
The most important part here is just the scouting. If you miss the Sky transition, you're quit much doomed either way.
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On August 02 2013 20:35 BurningRanger wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 20:10 Everlong wrote:On August 02 2013 19:49 BurningRanger wrote:On August 02 2013 18:40 Everlong wrote:On August 02 2013 18:29 BurningRanger wrote:On August 02 2013 17:18 Sissors wrote:If harstem would have payed more attention to the hellions at 7:12:20 the game would have been over alot faster. A single FF on the ramp and he wouldnt have allowed Dayshi to decimate his mineral line. You could say the same about Dayshi not reacting properly to all those Oracles. Those did a lot more eco damage. A few Missile Turrets would have been a lot cheaper than all the lost SCVs. Without those SCV losses he'd have been in a lot better position. Apart from that I like the Hellions, because I think people kind of build too many Hellbats nowadays. But imo he should have started atleast some Tank production earlier. He looses way too many Hellions. Then later he produces Tanks, but forgets about the Hellions to protect those. And even later he has a load of Hellions with the Tanks, but doesn't have them in front of the Tanks to protect those from the Immortals. And finally he just refuses to build any Hellions or Hellbats like at all. Widow Mines do not protect Tanks well, because they don't block. And in this case they get killed by Storms over and over, because the mines are so far forward that the Tanks don't protect them. Also, well... he got some Ghosts, but I can't remember seeing any EMP at all. Either clear the Immo Shields or get rid of the Storm threat, but neither happened. So tbh... this was a rather bad Mech attempt imo. It looked a little bit like Dayshi didn't know what to do after the mass Hellions. And because it's been mentioned... Bomber vs Rain, Game 2... Thor/Hellbat... this is such a bad idea imho. It may be ok as some kind of 2 base all-in, but apart from that it just doesn't work against Protoss. Both Thors and Hellbats are slow as shit, but lack the range advantage that Tanks give you. It's like playing Bio without Stim and with a Timewarp bubble always around you. May I ask, do you have any argumnets why Thor/Hellbat is such a bad idea besides " it just doesn't work against Protoss", or "both are slow as shit"? Range advantage is cool, but it's not so cool anymore when you have 20 Zealots flanking your Tanks with charge, or 10 Immortals marching forward barely losing any HP, or range 15 Tempest laughting at your Tanks. To fight Colossus, you have Vikings. Also, you can surely make like 4-5 Tanks to snipe HT, hold ground vs Colossus, or siege their expansion. Not to mention that Tanks can't shoot up. I mean, there must be a reason if Korean pros go Hellbat/Thor when meching TvP. Agreed? My argument, why Thor/Hellbat is a bad idea against Protoss is that it has the same problems as Tank centric Mech without the range advantage of it. Without Tanks the Protoss can basically kite you forever with Stalkers, Colossi and Immortals. Colossi have the range advantage over Thors and Hellbats and none of the two have the speed to close in. Immortals and Stalkers both have the range advantage over Hellbats and at least the Stalkers have the speed to kite them. So you actually need to protect the Hellbats with the Thors (which is stupid enough), but that opens up the Thors to the Immortals. With quite a bunch of Stalkers on Protoss side, you can't even drop the Hellbats onto the Protoss army. On your point about Zealots flanking and Immos marching forward to the Tanks. That's exactly what I meant Dayshi did wrong. He didn't protect the Tanks from such stuff. You should siege up and then keep the Hellions/Hellbats nearby to keep Zealots away and to block Immortals from getting close enough to the tanks to shoot at them. It's the same concept as with Zealots and Colossi. The Zealots are the meatshields to keep anything away from the Colossi, while those dish out the damage. As you mentioned Tempests laughing at Tanks... they laugh at Thors, too. Tempests have the same speed as Thors, so they can kite them a little... atleast to the next cliff. Against Tempests you need Vikings, no matter if with Tanks or Thors. As I said, the only reason I see, why a Pro would go Thor/Hellbat against Protoss, is some kind of 2 base all-in. Apparently you didn't read the part where I state that you can (and you should) make at least few Tanks to retain the range advantage. If you go Hellbat/Thor as a bulk of your army, it doesn't mean building Tanks is forbidden. 3-4 Tanks is enough to hold ground against Colossus/Stalkers or anything Protoss has to kite you with. But at the same time, you don't risk being overwhelmed by Zealots/Immortals/Archons so badly (you need Ghosts anyways, obviously). You don't risk being caught unsieged or surprised by air switch. Believe it or not, Thors do better than Tanks against Voidrays or Tempests. Also, you can repair Thors with SCVs whereas Tanks die instantly. So by going Hellbat/Thor + few Tanks as a support instead of pure Hellbat/Tank, you have range advangate, more durable army, more mobility and at least some anti-air. Sounds good to me.. Well ok, you mentioned adding a few Tanks, while I was talking about this specific case of Bomber going pure Thor/Hellbat (without any Tanks). And please don't talk like I didn't know Tanks can't shoot up. I'm well aware of the fact that Thors are better against Voidrays/Tempests than Tanks. Actually, I usually add a few Thors to my Tank/Hellion/Hellbat army too, to have some anti-air and some beefiness, just like you would add a few Tanks for the range. So the main question here would actually be "more Tanks or more Thors?" The answer is very clear: it depends Against a ground based Protoss, imo Tanks are better, because they melt the Protoss army way faster. Yes Thors can take more damage, but they also have to, because the Protoss army survives a lot longer and therefor does more damage to you. Against Skytoss certainly Thors are better for the obvious reason (above). In that case I'd also recommend to stop producing Hellions/Hellbats and get Widowmines from the reactored Faxes. But you'll have to get mass Vikings still. The most important part here is just the scouting. If you miss the Sky transition, you're quit much doomed either way.
I don't know man, I have lost countless times with well positioned Hellbat/Tank army to 1a from Protoss just like that. Protoss army melting to Tanks happen only if you somehow happen to have this perfect engagement (clumped deathball running into choke, everything EMPed, 20 Tanks sieged). I'd rather have more chances to win closely than trying to melt his army in 1 lucky engagement. Good Protoss players are not going to give you that perfect engagement anyways. But that might be just me. There are some good players that play Hellbat/Tank based mech (Strelok). All in all, I think mech is not far from being viable. If they lower armory cost, fix this Hellbat upgrades clusterfuck or just make mech somehow easier to play (as they said), we might see it in pro games finally.
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On August 02 2013 20:56 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 20:35 BurningRanger wrote:On August 02 2013 20:10 Everlong wrote:On August 02 2013 19:49 BurningRanger wrote:On August 02 2013 18:40 Everlong wrote:On August 02 2013 18:29 BurningRanger wrote:On August 02 2013 17:18 Sissors wrote:If harstem would have payed more attention to the hellions at 7:12:20 the game would have been over alot faster. A single FF on the ramp and he wouldnt have allowed Dayshi to decimate his mineral line. You could say the same about Dayshi not reacting properly to all those Oracles. Those did a lot more eco damage. A few Missile Turrets would have been a lot cheaper than all the lost SCVs. Without those SCV losses he'd have been in a lot better position. Apart from that I like the Hellions, because I think people kind of build too many Hellbats nowadays. But imo he should have started atleast some Tank production earlier. He looses way too many Hellions. Then later he produces Tanks, but forgets about the Hellions to protect those. And even later he has a load of Hellions with the Tanks, but doesn't have them in front of the Tanks to protect those from the Immortals. And finally he just refuses to build any Hellions or Hellbats like at all. Widow Mines do not protect Tanks well, because they don't block. And in this case they get killed by Storms over and over, because the mines are so far forward that the Tanks don't protect them. Also, well... he got some Ghosts, but I can't remember seeing any EMP at all. Either clear the Immo Shields or get rid of the Storm threat, but neither happened. So tbh... this was a rather bad Mech attempt imo. It looked a little bit like Dayshi didn't know what to do after the mass Hellions. And because it's been mentioned... Bomber vs Rain, Game 2... Thor/Hellbat... this is such a bad idea imho. It may be ok as some kind of 2 base all-in, but apart from that it just doesn't work against Protoss. Both Thors and Hellbats are slow as shit, but lack the range advantage that Tanks give you. It's like playing Bio without Stim and with a Timewarp bubble always around you. May I ask, do you have any argumnets why Thor/Hellbat is such a bad idea besides " it just doesn't work against Protoss", or "both are slow as shit"? Range advantage is cool, but it's not so cool anymore when you have 20 Zealots flanking your Tanks with charge, or 10 Immortals marching forward barely losing any HP, or range 15 Tempest laughting at your Tanks. To fight Colossus, you have Vikings. Also, you can surely make like 4-5 Tanks to snipe HT, hold ground vs Colossus, or siege their expansion. Not to mention that Tanks can't shoot up. I mean, there must be a reason if Korean pros go Hellbat/Thor when meching TvP. Agreed? My argument, why Thor/Hellbat is a bad idea against Protoss is that it has the same problems as Tank centric Mech without the range advantage of it. Without Tanks the Protoss can basically kite you forever with Stalkers, Colossi and Immortals. Colossi have the range advantage over Thors and Hellbats and none of the two have the speed to close in. Immortals and Stalkers both have the range advantage over Hellbats and at least the Stalkers have the speed to kite them. So you actually need to protect the Hellbats with the Thors (which is stupid enough), but that opens up the Thors to the Immortals. With quite a bunch of Stalkers on Protoss side, you can't even drop the Hellbats onto the Protoss army. On your point about Zealots flanking and Immos marching forward to the Tanks. That's exactly what I meant Dayshi did wrong. He didn't protect the Tanks from such stuff. You should siege up and then keep the Hellions/Hellbats nearby to keep Zealots away and to block Immortals from getting close enough to the tanks to shoot at them. It's the same concept as with Zealots and Colossi. The Zealots are the meatshields to keep anything away from the Colossi, while those dish out the damage. As you mentioned Tempests laughing at Tanks... they laugh at Thors, too. Tempests have the same speed as Thors, so they can kite them a little... atleast to the next cliff. Against Tempests you need Vikings, no matter if with Tanks or Thors. As I said, the only reason I see, why a Pro would go Thor/Hellbat against Protoss, is some kind of 2 base all-in. Apparently you didn't read the part where I state that you can (and you should) make at least few Tanks to retain the range advantage. If you go Hellbat/Thor as a bulk of your army, it doesn't mean building Tanks is forbidden. 3-4 Tanks is enough to hold ground against Colossus/Stalkers or anything Protoss has to kite you with. But at the same time, you don't risk being overwhelmed by Zealots/Immortals/Archons so badly (you need Ghosts anyways, obviously). You don't risk being caught unsieged or surprised by air switch. Believe it or not, Thors do better than Tanks against Voidrays or Tempests. Also, you can repair Thors with SCVs whereas Tanks die instantly. So by going Hellbat/Thor + few Tanks as a support instead of pure Hellbat/Tank, you have range advangate, more durable army, more mobility and at least some anti-air. Sounds good to me.. Well ok, you mentioned adding a few Tanks, while I was talking about this specific case of Bomber going pure Thor/Hellbat (without any Tanks). And please don't talk like I didn't know Tanks can't shoot up. I'm well aware of the fact that Thors are better against Voidrays/Tempests than Tanks. Actually, I usually add a few Thors to my Tank/Hellion/Hellbat army too, to have some anti-air and some beefiness, just like you would add a few Tanks for the range. So the main question here would actually be "more Tanks or more Thors?" The answer is very clear: it depends Against a ground based Protoss, imo Tanks are better, because they melt the Protoss army way faster. Yes Thors can take more damage, but they also have to, because the Protoss army survives a lot longer and therefor does more damage to you. Against Skytoss certainly Thors are better for the obvious reason (above). In that case I'd also recommend to stop producing Hellions/Hellbats and get Widowmines from the reactored Faxes. But you'll have to get mass Vikings still. The most important part here is just the scouting. If you miss the Sky transition, you're quit much doomed either way. I don't know man, I have lost countless times with well positioned Hellbat/Tank army to 1a from Protoss just like that. Protoss army melting to Tanks happen only if you somehow happen to have this perfect engagement (clumped deathball running into choke, everything EMPed, 20 Tanks sieged). I'd rather have more chances to win closely than trying to melt his army in 1 lucky engagement. Good Protoss players are not going to give you that perfect engagement anyways. But that might be just me. There are some good players that play Hellbat/Tank based mech (Strelok). All in all, I think mech is not far from being viable. If they lower armory cost, fix this Hellbat upgrades clusterfuck or just make mech somehow easier to play (as they said), we might see it in pro games finally.
Aye, that's right. I lost to quite a lot of 1a'ing of Protoss, too, but mainly when I played bio (I just don't have the multitasking for bio). At least with Tank/Hellion/Hellbat I have the feeling that I had a chance to win, if only I position better. Usually I can see my positioning mistakes in my replys right away, whereas with bio it was always more like I would have had to drop more/better, harass better, pull him more around, get some better small engagements, etc. just to have a small chance to win the inevitable big battle, if he only does 1a and goes afk.
But you're right and it has been said so often already. To be really viable on Pro level, it needs a little TvP only buff (like Tanks doing more damage to shields or so).
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On August 02 2013 21:12 BurningRanger wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 20:56 Everlong wrote:On August 02 2013 20:35 BurningRanger wrote:On August 02 2013 20:10 Everlong wrote:On August 02 2013 19:49 BurningRanger wrote:On August 02 2013 18:40 Everlong wrote:On August 02 2013 18:29 BurningRanger wrote:On August 02 2013 17:18 Sissors wrote:If harstem would have payed more attention to the hellions at 7:12:20 the game would have been over alot faster. A single FF on the ramp and he wouldnt have allowed Dayshi to decimate his mineral line. You could say the same about Dayshi not reacting properly to all those Oracles. Those did a lot more eco damage. A few Missile Turrets would have been a lot cheaper than all the lost SCVs. Without those SCV losses he'd have been in a lot better position. Apart from that I like the Hellions, because I think people kind of build too many Hellbats nowadays. But imo he should have started atleast some Tank production earlier. He looses way too many Hellions. Then later he produces Tanks, but forgets about the Hellions to protect those. And even later he has a load of Hellions with the Tanks, but doesn't have them in front of the Tanks to protect those from the Immortals. And finally he just refuses to build any Hellions or Hellbats like at all. Widow Mines do not protect Tanks well, because they don't block. And in this case they get killed by Storms over and over, because the mines are so far forward that the Tanks don't protect them. Also, well... he got some Ghosts, but I can't remember seeing any EMP at all. Either clear the Immo Shields or get rid of the Storm threat, but neither happened. So tbh... this was a rather bad Mech attempt imo. It looked a little bit like Dayshi didn't know what to do after the mass Hellions. And because it's been mentioned... Bomber vs Rain, Game 2... Thor/Hellbat... this is such a bad idea imho. It may be ok as some kind of 2 base all-in, but apart from that it just doesn't work against Protoss. Both Thors and Hellbats are slow as shit, but lack the range advantage that Tanks give you. It's like playing Bio without Stim and with a Timewarp bubble always around you. May I ask, do you have any argumnets why Thor/Hellbat is such a bad idea besides " it just doesn't work against Protoss", or "both are slow as shit"? Range advantage is cool, but it's not so cool anymore when you have 20 Zealots flanking your Tanks with charge, or 10 Immortals marching forward barely losing any HP, or range 15 Tempest laughting at your Tanks. To fight Colossus, you have Vikings. Also, you can surely make like 4-5 Tanks to snipe HT, hold ground vs Colossus, or siege their expansion. Not to mention that Tanks can't shoot up. I mean, there must be a reason if Korean pros go Hellbat/Thor when meching TvP. Agreed? My argument, why Thor/Hellbat is a bad idea against Protoss is that it has the same problems as Tank centric Mech without the range advantage of it. Without Tanks the Protoss can basically kite you forever with Stalkers, Colossi and Immortals. Colossi have the range advantage over Thors and Hellbats and none of the two have the speed to close in. Immortals and Stalkers both have the range advantage over Hellbats and at least the Stalkers have the speed to kite them. So you actually need to protect the Hellbats with the Thors (which is stupid enough), but that opens up the Thors to the Immortals. With quite a bunch of Stalkers on Protoss side, you can't even drop the Hellbats onto the Protoss army. On your point about Zealots flanking and Immos marching forward to the Tanks. That's exactly what I meant Dayshi did wrong. He didn't protect the Tanks from such stuff. You should siege up and then keep the Hellions/Hellbats nearby to keep Zealots away and to block Immortals from getting close enough to the tanks to shoot at them. It's the same concept as with Zealots and Colossi. The Zealots are the meatshields to keep anything away from the Colossi, while those dish out the damage. As you mentioned Tempests laughing at Tanks... they laugh at Thors, too. Tempests have the same speed as Thors, so they can kite them a little... atleast to the next cliff. Against Tempests you need Vikings, no matter if with Tanks or Thors. As I said, the only reason I see, why a Pro would go Thor/Hellbat against Protoss, is some kind of 2 base all-in. Apparently you didn't read the part where I state that you can (and you should) make at least few Tanks to retain the range advantage. If you go Hellbat/Thor as a bulk of your army, it doesn't mean building Tanks is forbidden. 3-4 Tanks is enough to hold ground against Colossus/Stalkers or anything Protoss has to kite you with. But at the same time, you don't risk being overwhelmed by Zealots/Immortals/Archons so badly (you need Ghosts anyways, obviously). You don't risk being caught unsieged or surprised by air switch. Believe it or not, Thors do better than Tanks against Voidrays or Tempests. Also, you can repair Thors with SCVs whereas Tanks die instantly. So by going Hellbat/Thor + few Tanks as a support instead of pure Hellbat/Tank, you have range advangate, more durable army, more mobility and at least some anti-air. Sounds good to me.. Well ok, you mentioned adding a few Tanks, while I was talking about this specific case of Bomber going pure Thor/Hellbat (without any Tanks). And please don't talk like I didn't know Tanks can't shoot up. I'm well aware of the fact that Thors are better against Voidrays/Tempests than Tanks. Actually, I usually add a few Thors to my Tank/Hellion/Hellbat army too, to have some anti-air and some beefiness, just like you would add a few Tanks for the range. So the main question here would actually be "more Tanks or more Thors?" The answer is very clear: it depends Against a ground based Protoss, imo Tanks are better, because they melt the Protoss army way faster. Yes Thors can take more damage, but they also have to, because the Protoss army survives a lot longer and therefor does more damage to you. Against Skytoss certainly Thors are better for the obvious reason (above). In that case I'd also recommend to stop producing Hellions/Hellbats and get Widowmines from the reactored Faxes. But you'll have to get mass Vikings still. The most important part here is just the scouting. If you miss the Sky transition, you're quit much doomed either way. I don't know man, I have lost countless times with well positioned Hellbat/Tank army to 1a from Protoss just like that. Protoss army melting to Tanks happen only if you somehow happen to have this perfect engagement (clumped deathball running into choke, everything EMPed, 20 Tanks sieged). I'd rather have more chances to win closely than trying to melt his army in 1 lucky engagement. Good Protoss players are not going to give you that perfect engagement anyways. But that might be just me. There are some good players that play Hellbat/Tank based mech (Strelok). All in all, I think mech is not far from being viable. If they lower armory cost, fix this Hellbat upgrades clusterfuck or just make mech somehow easier to play (as they said), we might see it in pro games finally. Aye, that's right. I lost to quite a lot of 1a'ing of Protoss, too, but mainly when I played bio (I just don't have the multitasking for bio). At least with Tank/Hellion/Hellbat I have the feeling that I had a chance to win, if only I position better. Usually I can see my positioning mistakes in my replys right away, whereas with bio it was always more like I would have had to drop more/better, harass better, pull him more around, get some better small engagements, etc. just to have a small chance to win the inevitable big battle, if he only does 1a and goes afk. But you're right and it has been said so often already. To be really viable on Pro level, it needs a little TvP only buff (like Tanks doing more damage to shields or so).
I agree with you. 
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Hello !
Master Terran here. I have been playing around with Mech TvP for quite a while now.
I have a question : my style relies heavily on Widow mines. Am I the only one using them ?
Basically, I use mass mines + tanks against most Protoss composition, and if they use colossy, I switch to tanks + vikings. I do build hellbats, but it seems really weird to me that most terrans just don't seem to rely on mines as much as I do. Why is that ?
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EPT
