And back on topic: what are the gosu mechers up to? Havent heard from Lyyna in a while and HTOMario doesn't seem to be streaming as often, we still have the mighty avilo but he isn't meching a lot in TvP these days =[
Well, due to mech (and the overall game) terrible state, basically decided few weeks ago to totally stop any serious attempt at playing sc2. Since i got a new connection allowing me to stream since then, i want to try one last time to get back motivation by streaming but well, i don't even want to start the game...
I mech every MU at high Masters and stream most of my games.
I agree that mech is in an awful state at the moment though. The Hellbat nerf killed most openers, and with Protoss learning how to use the Mcore, fast Robo and Tempests, and Zergs learning how to build Swarm Hosts and Vipers, it's no surprise that we haven't seen a TvP or TvZ mech game in a major tournament for many months. I doubt we'll ever see it recover at the pro level without a significant buff.
That said, in the real world where we play, I think people really need to start learning how to integrate Ravens into their play. HSM ignores hardened shields and Blinding Cloud, massacres clumped up units, and can 1-shot clumped up Swarm Hosts, while PDD negates Tempest, Hydra and Corruptor fire. And auto-turets aren't bad for harassment either.
A significant Raven count is the only way to get around all the units that hard-counter mech in the late game. Whether you'd still consider it 'mech' is another matter..
And back on topic: what are the gosu mechers up to? Havent heard from Lyyna in a while and HTOMario doesn't seem to be streaming as often, we still have the mighty avilo but he isn't meching a lot in TvP these days =[
I need some fresh mech BOs to start again.
Well you can't blame them for not Meching so often anymore in TvP. I mean it's possible to go mech in TvP but it's so easily stopped with a couple of Immortals that it discourages them to the point where it's like banging your head against a wall.
I've only come to see Dzerzhinsky and avilo these days going Mech but after that...it's pretty much a dead play style
And back on topic: what are the gosu mechers up to? Havent heard from Lyyna in a while and HTOMario doesn't seem to be streaming as often, we still have the mighty avilo but he isn't meching a lot in TvP these days =[
Well, due to mech (and the overall game) terrible state, basically decided few weeks ago to totally stop any serious attempt at playing sc2. Since i got a new connection allowing me to stream since then, i want to try one last time to get back motivation by streaming but well, i don't even want to start the game...
This is very sad news =[ it's that kind of feeling that made me want to try out bio in the first place, that and the new maps in the pool
On September 22 2013 00:37 Dzerzhinsky wrote: I mech every MU at high Masters and stream most of my games.
I agree that mech is in an awful state at the moment though. The Hellbat nerf killed most openers, and with Protoss learning how to use the Mcore, fast Robo and Tempests, and Zergs learning how to build Swarm Hosts and Vipers, it's no surprise that we haven't seen a TvP or TvZ mech game in a major tournament for many months. I doubt we'll ever see it recover at the pro level without a significant buff.
That said, in the real world where we play, I think people really need to start learning how to integrate Ravens into their play. HSM ignores hardened shields and Blinding Cloud, massacres clumped up units, and can 1-shot clumped up Swarm Hosts, while PDD negates Tempest, Hydra and Corruptor fire. And auto-turets aren't bad for harassment either.
A significant Raven count is the only way to get around all the units that hard-counter mech in the late game. Whether you'd still consider it 'mech' is another matter..
Hey man, I've watched your stream before, good stuff, it's one of the things that might motivate me to even keep playing, although sometimes it pains me to see you being abused by players that are good at exploiting mech's flaws (which isnt even very hard)
And back on topic: what are the gosu mechers up to? Havent heard from Lyyna in a while and HTOMario doesn't seem to be streaming as often, we still have the mighty avilo but he isn't meching a lot in TvP these days =[
I need some fresh mech BOs to start again.
Well you can't blame them for not Meching so often anymore in TvP. I mean it's possible to go mech in TvP but it's so easily stopped with a couple of Immortals that it discourages them to the point where it's like banging your head against a wall.
I've only come to see Dzerzhinsky and avilo these days going Mech but after that...it's pretty much a dead play style
Maybe me personally, but my TvZ mech win ratio has been at 0% for months now (literally 0%, not almost, I simply autolose every single game vs zerg where I don't cheese them). While TvP mech still works for me. Granted largely due to protoss players not knowing how to deal with mech, and sure part of it will be that for some reason I simply am not able to beat zerg players, but I do think TvZ is at least as big as a problem as TvP for mech currently.
Even if they don't simply kill me with vipers and/or swarmhosts they simply walk over me with ultralisks. If I beat the ultralisks they simply send in a second wave, since there is little reason for them not to mass expand over the entire map. And ravens are also beyond horrible against ultras (they prolly deal more friendly fire than enemy fire when using seekers on ultras).
And back on topic: what are the gosu mechers up to? Havent heard from Lyyna in a while and HTOMario doesn't seem to be streaming as often, we still have the mighty avilo but he isn't meching a lot in TvP these days =[
I need some fresh mech BOs to start again.
Well you can't blame them for not Meching so often anymore in TvP. I mean it's possible to go mech in TvP but it's so easily stopped with a couple of Immortals that it discourages them to the point where it's like banging your head against a wall.
I've only come to see Dzerzhinsky and avilo these days going Mech but after that...it's pretty much a dead play style
Maybe me personally, but my TvZ mech win ratio has been at 0% for months now (literally 0%, not almost, I simply autolose every single game vs zerg where I don't cheese them). While TvP mech still works for me. Granted largely due to protoss players not knowing how to deal with mech, and sure part of it will be that for some reason I simply am not able to beat zerg players, but I do think TvZ is at least as big as a problem as TvP for mech currently.
Even if they don't simply kill me with vipers and/or swarmhosts they simply walk over me with ultralisks. If I beat the ultralisks they simply send in a second wave, since there is little reason for them not to mass expand over the entire map. And ravens are also beyond horrible against ultras (they prolly deal more friendly fire than enemy fire when using seekers on ultras).
Ultras are pretty damn hard to beat. You need to get perfect engagements every time or make him attack into you when ur walled off with PFs and Barracks.
And back on topic: what are the gosu mechers up to? Havent heard from Lyyna in a while and HTOMario doesn't seem to be streaming as often, we still have the mighty avilo but he isn't meching a lot in TvP these days =[
I need some fresh mech BOs to start again.
Well you can't blame them for not Meching so often anymore in TvP. I mean it's possible to go mech in TvP but it's so easily stopped with a couple of Immortals that it discourages them to the point where it's like banging your head against a wall.
I've only come to see Dzerzhinsky and avilo these days going Mech but after that...it's pretty much a dead play style
Maybe me personally, but my TvZ mech win ratio has been at 0% for months now (literally 0%, not almost, I simply autolose every single game vs zerg where I don't cheese them). While TvP mech still works for me. Granted largely due to protoss players not knowing how to deal with mech, and sure part of it will be that for some reason I simply am not able to beat zerg players, but I do think TvZ is at least as big as a problem as TvP for mech currently.
Even if they don't simply kill me with vipers and/or swarmhosts they simply walk over me with ultralisks. If I beat the ultralisks they simply send in a second wave, since there is little reason for them not to mass expand over the entire map. And ravens are also beyond horrible against ultras (they prolly deal more friendly fire than enemy fire when using seekers on ultras).
I'm just Gold, but this is what works for me in Mech v Zerg. I'm playing a 2 base push (Tank, BF-Hellion, Marine) that sometimes kills their 3rd or at least makes them build a ton of units to hold it. During that I'm preparing for BF-Hellbat drops and, when the push is done, I go roast some drones with them. Zerg usually wants to drone up after such a big fight, so it usually criples their eco. This should stop them from expanding all over the map, slows down their Hive and more importantly they have to choose, if they go Ultra, Swarmhost OR Broodlord, instead of being able to have all and techswitch you to death. When BF-Hellbat drops don't work anymore, try BF-Hellion runbys. Even with Mech, you can't sit on your fingers that much anymore. It's not as demanding as with Bio, but you still have to keep the Zerg busy.
Against Ultras (and Swarmhosts too btw) I'd recommend adding Banshees instead of Ravens. Also go with less Tanks and more Thors to compensate for the lack of anti-air of the Banshees (in case of techswitches). Thors are also too fat to clump that much, so the "splash" of the Ultras isn't that much of an issue. Try to fight in chokes. When all your Tanks, Thors and Banshees can fire at once, while the Ultras try to climb over each other to get to something to cut to pieces, you should be ok. Also, if your tanks are not sieged, when the fight begins, don't siege them. Ultras are too big for the splash to do much (not even speaking about friendly fire) and the 4 seconds siege-up time can cost you battles.
The problem with Banshees is upgrades, past early game they won't do shit against combat units, they are only good at sniping workers and unprotected bases. So unless you're doing some sort of skyterran builds that gets fast +ship attack (or it's super late game and you can afford it), Banshee is not the answer, although having up to 3 can be really useful for general harassment and map control, if you manage to keep them alive they can be very good to snipe workers, or force zerg's mutalisks out of position.
They do shit DPS against units with armor upgrades, especially against ultras, if they merged the attack upgrades at the Armory I think it woul help mech a ton and make Banshees actually useful as a combat unit, and even then, Zerg will have either spores, hydra or corruptor with his SHs.
I've been opening a lot with Hellion/Banshee, I have frost/whirlwind and derelict watcher veto'd, so I only play maps that are hard for Zerg to take a third, making this opening very powerful.
And yeah, against Ultras you need very good positioning or you will flat out lose the game instantly. The hard thing about fighting Ultras vs a zerg with good eco is that winning engagements isn't as significant as winning against other unit comps because Ultras are so supply effective.
And back on topic: what are the gosu mechers up to? Havent heard from Lyyna in a while and HTOMario doesn't seem to be streaming as often, we still have the mighty avilo but he isn't meching a lot in TvP these days =[
I need some fresh mech BOs to start again.
Well you can't blame them for not Meching so often anymore in TvP. I mean it's possible to go mech in TvP but it's so easily stopped with a couple of Immortals that it discourages them to the point where it's like banging your head against a wall.
I've only come to see Dzerzhinsky and avilo these days going Mech but after that...it's pretty much a dead play style
Maybe me personally, but my TvZ mech win ratio has been at 0% for months now (literally 0%, not almost, I simply autolose every single game vs zerg where I don't cheese them). While TvP mech still works for me. Granted largely due to protoss players not knowing how to deal with mech, and sure part of it will be that for some reason I simply am not able to beat zerg players, but I do think TvZ is at least as big as a problem as TvP for mech currently.
Even if they don't simply kill me with vipers and/or swarmhosts they simply walk over me with ultralisks. If I beat the ultralisks they simply send in a second wave, since there is little reason for them not to mass expand over the entire map. And ravens are also beyond horrible against ultras (they prolly deal more friendly fire than enemy fire when using seekers on ultras).
Ultras are pretty damn hard to beat. You need to get perfect engagements every time or make him attack into you when ur walled off with PFs and Barracks.
Hmm, in my experience, Ultras are not a problem at all. Just focus fire them with your Tank/Thor force and they drop like flies. You need to watch out not to get surrounded and as long as you prevent this from happening, you will come out ahead with supply lead.
On February 02 2013 03:36 Everlong wrote: Ok, cool, you can add following...
Here are players I know that regularly play mech at gm/m level, definitely go check them if you want to learn how to mech in HotS:
Supernova- sick 2base TvP mech push, often mechs in TvT, TvZ
Beastyqt - He is playing mech TvP (there are some cool Vods on his stream) often, TvT mostly, rarely TvZ
avilo - Always mechs TvT, TvZ, never TvP (facepalm), hope he can overcome his issues in TvP
Also, check out Strelok, Trimaster, ForGG (recently started streaming), they also play mech often...
If anyone is interested, I'm willing to start discussion on any topic regarding mech in all matchups as I've been playing and watching a lot of mech games through whole beta..
For avilo, you really shouldn't "facepalm" at the lack of TvP mech. There are some really notable clips and legitimate complaints he's had with TvP mech. Mech is far from the amazing "goto" strat many BW enthusiasts and non-terrans claim it is.
I had another one of those mech TvP games yesterday. Killed about 50 probes, had a "stronger" army than Protoss, 20 tanks pre-sieged with battle hellions in front.
Protoss opened 1 base blink stalker all-in, did zero damage. Went into DTS afterwards, did minimal damage. Then he 1A's immortal's, archons, and chargelots into 20 pre-sieged tanks and he ended up winning the game.
Mech TvP is terrible. It makes you wanna punch kittens, and that is not fun!
Then again with HTs on the side of the tempests they do. And no matter how much I respect your mech abilities, a 'few' vikings do not counter tempests. The main problem is also how idiotic little supply tempests take, if they change that to 6 I would be alot happier. For me also the problem against HT + tempests is the difference in micro required, which isn't my strongest point.With HTs/ghosts added you have the issue his army is alot more flexible than yours. Also his micro (at my level at least) is pretty much a-moving his tempests and micro'ing his templars: storming and feedbacking everything he sees. Meanwhile I have to drop new PDDs closer with ravens, and mostly try to EMP his army while at the same time dodging storms with vikings. And once I start trying to dodge storms there really won't be going of new EMPs until he runs out of storms. And with the range of tempests it is unlikely you manage to snipe/emp HTs before the fight.
I at least have in all my mech games vs toss never been able to beat a late game mass tempest army. Mostly I lose, I have won a handfull times against it, but that was mainly due to bad handling by my opponent of me attacking his economy until even while horribly trading he simply couldn't make new tempests. But in the end imo 4 supply is too low.
Btw @ HTOMario, do you happen to have also some recent replays vs zerg? Overall I have something like 70% win rate vs toss, but only 30% vs zerg, and that is due to all-ins. Haven't won a long game vs zerg in 2 seasons .
On October 04 2013 15:17 Sissors wrote: Then again with HTs on the side of the tempests they do. And no matter how much I respect your mech abilities, a 'few' vikings do not counter tempests. The main problem is also how idiotic little supply tempests take, if they change that to 6 I would be alot happier. For me also the problem against HT + tempests is the difference in micro required, which isn't my strongest point.With HTs/ghosts added you have the issue his army is alot more flexible than yours. Also his micro (at my level at least) is pretty much a-moving his tempests and micro'ing his templars: storming and feedbacking everything he sees. Meanwhile I have to drop new PDDs closer with ravens, and mostly try to EMP his army while at the same time dodging storms with vikings. And once I start trying to dodge storms there really won't be going of new EMPs until he runs out of storms. And with the range of tempests it is unlikely you manage to snipe/emp HTs before the fight.
I at least have in all my mech games vs toss never been able to beat a late game mass tempest army. Mostly I lose, I have won a handfull times against it, but that was mainly due to bad handling by my opponent of me attacking his economy until even while horribly trading he simply couldn't make new tempests. But in the end imo 4 supply is too low.
Btw @ HTOMario, do you happen to have also some recent replays vs zerg? Overall I have something like 70% win rate vs toss, but only 30% vs zerg, and that is due to all-ins. Haven't won a long game vs zerg in 2 seasons .
I don't feel like scouted tempests are a problem and i've won game where it's bc raven ghost viking vs tempest carrier HT.
On October 04 2013 15:17 Sissors wrote: Then again with HTs on the side of the tempests they do. And no matter how much I respect your mech abilities, a 'few' vikings do not counter tempests. The main problem is also how idiotic little supply tempests take, if they change that to 6 I would be alot happier. For me also the problem against HT + tempests is the difference in micro required, which isn't my strongest point.With HTs/ghosts added you have the issue his army is alot more flexible than yours. Also his micro (at my level at least) is pretty much a-moving his tempests and micro'ing his templars: storming and feedbacking everything he sees. Meanwhile I have to drop new PDDs closer with ravens, and mostly try to EMP his army while at the same time dodging storms with vikings. And once I start trying to dodge storms there really won't be going of new EMPs until he runs out of storms. And with the range of tempests it is unlikely you manage to snipe/emp HTs before the fight.
I at least have in all my mech games vs toss never been able to beat a late game mass tempest army. Mostly I lose, I have won a handfull times against it, but that was mainly due to bad handling by my opponent of me attacking his economy until even while horribly trading he simply couldn't make new tempests. But in the end imo 4 supply is too low.
Btw @ HTOMario, do you happen to have also some recent replays vs zerg? Overall I have something like 70% win rate vs toss, but only 30% vs zerg, and that is due to all-ins. Haven't won a long game vs zerg in 2 seasons .
I don't feel like scouted tempests are a problem and i've won game where it's bc raven ghost viking vs tempest carrier HT.
If I scout it when his stargates go up I have no problem with it, but how do you make sure you scout it at that point? I regulary scan the toss's main, but if he has 3 stargates being chronoboosted producing tempests in a third/edge of main then he can easily have 6 tempests before I scout it.
That is also the idea/problem I personally have with BCs. Sure it works fine as long as you are ahead of the enemy in production, but if you try to switch to BCs when he already started his tempest production I only see horrible dead in my future. And it makes my micro deficit only worse: tempest carrier HTs means pretty much he can a-move his air units and micro his HTs. While if you go BC you need to cast yamato's once energy is available for them, ravens should drop PDDs. Ghosts need to emp/snipe HTs, and vikings need to dodge storms. Now I freely admit part of the issue is that my micro isn't good in such situations (okay most situations outside stopping 8/8 reapers). But still at my level there is so much more micro I have to do than my opponent that I just have no chance in hell against such an army in a direct fight.
Edit: Watched it. Quite a different composition from what I generally use, so probably there my mistake is (much heavier on widow mines).
Still lets say in your initial attack he would have had a ling on the highground on the top attack path. He would have scouted your army, you wouldn't have known it. Since you also didn't scan or anything, couldn't he then have really easily killed your entire army with tanks unsieged and widow mines unburrowed? Also did you know he didn't have mutas left? Because the position your tanks were sieged was very good against a ground army, but half your siege tanks could have been taken out if he still had mutas for barely any muta losses.
In the end it also looked to me like you traded fairly inefficient in every fight. Only you were so far ahead after his failed basetrade that it didn't matter anymore.
On October 06 2013 21:39 Maler wrote: Maler, now masterleague full meching terran here.
How do you guys open TvP ?
Would like to hear if any of you have some creative builds for that match up
I've crafted my own build that works for me very well. It is just a solid build overall, not too greedy, not too safe. Going to share it here so that you can try it out or maybe suggest some improvements.
Basically goes like this:
1) Rax (3 Marines, then hold), gas, factory -> CC on high ground -> 2nd gas + continue Marine production 2) @100% factory make tech lab -> Siege Tank 3) @100 gas -> Starport 4) @100%Tank -> leave tech lab for Starport and make 2 wm (or hellion for scouting) from Factory 5) @100% Starport -> attach to tech lab from Factory -> Raven 6) @100% Raven -> Factory goes back to tech lab -> 2nd Siege Tank, Starport can produce Medivac for drop, Banshee for extra safety/harass/scouting, Viking or just nothing to free up resources for upgrades or faster 3rd CC
This gives you detection, fast tank, 2 wm and at least 5 Marines (you can pump as many as you want) and you can move out with this force to secure your natural..
From this point, depending on what you scout, you can increase your production and add 2 more factories, or go for fast upgrades with 1 or 2 armories or even throw in 3rd CC if you feel safe enough.
2WM, Raven, Siege Tank, bunker and cca 5-10 Marines + wall is enough to hold your natural basically against anything. I like to go up to 4 Tanks, then add Thors/Hellbats and secure my 3rd.
Problem is i like the hellbat tank style more, and if you open the way you do it leans more towards the tech heavy style of mech. But ill try it again in some games
On October 07 2013 17:30 Maler wrote: Ive tried doing the exact same build as you
Problem is i like the hellbat tank style more, and if you open the way you do it leans more towards the tech heavy style of mech. But ill try it again in some games
Yeah, that is the style I like because I find it really hard to compete with pure power of Immortals and gateway production. I also hate Tanks being dead supply should he go for Tempests. But Hellbat/Tank + Ghosts style works very well as well (see Strelok).
Hopefully something good can come out of this new patch (at least Tempests won't be that scary so I think Hellbat/Tank style could be a bit better here).
EPT
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