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Hi, dear TL community 
I've been searching for it but i could not find a thread specifically discussing the new (imported from HOTS) maps for WoL. What i'd like to know is what do you think about :
- Overlord placements (and how to avoid having them shot down early since the traveling distances make it very likely)
- Expansions (which are safe), better vs hellion runbys for instance (and fast to take : on akilon wastes, destroy the rocks or take the other, harder to defend but faster possibility ?)
- Best ways to FFE since the ramps are quite big
- Attack routes, which defines chokes (what are the best places for engagement per race)
- How to protect vs drops since the mains tend to be humongous
- Where are the better places for proxy pylons and, in turn, the places where those pylons should be searched for
- Are there styles favored by those new maps (for instance newkirk district seems very drop friendly to me, which would lead to air play)
Any other thoughts you might have (but only in WoL please)
Thanks for any light you could shed on those new items !
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As a Z i vetoed both maps. Akilon because it sux for early zvz. You cant wall your natural properly against banelings. I didnt find any proper spine crawler placement.
I vetoed district because it sux for overlord pathing in every match-up. In ZvZ you cant both scout if lings are crossing the map (from something like 6 pool) and scout your opponent's build as you can on every other map. This sux because the ZvZ builds and metagame revolve around overlord scouting clearly. In ZvT you cant scout your opponent's natural. You cant know in time that he didnt expo so you cant know a two rax is coming for instance. In ZvP your overlord arrives a little late to have the information if he gate or forge expo'ed. + You cant see in time if he made a nexus and thus if you are safe from canons.
The only thing district is good for is that it kinda brings back mutalisk because the map is big and because there's dead space behind the main, which is something that shouldnt have totally disappeared from our maps (it's part of the reason why we see no muta in zvt zvp at the moment).
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On January 16 2013 05:53 Natalya wrote:
As a Z i vetoed both maps. Akilon because it sux for early zvz. You cant wall your natural properly against banelings. I didnt find any proper spine crawler placement.
I vetoed district because it sux for overlord pathing in every match-up. In ZvZ you cant both scout if lings are crossing the map (from something like 6 pool) and scout your opponent's build as you can on every other map. This sux because the ZvZ builds and metagame revolve around overlord scouting clearly. In ZvT you cant scout your opponent's natural. You cant know in time that he didnt expo so you cant know a two rax is coming for instance. In ZvP your overlord arrives a little late to have the information if he gate or forge expo'ed. + You cant see in time if he made a nexus and thus if you are safe from canons.
The only thing district is good for is that it kinda brings back mutalisk because the map is big and because there's dead space behind the main, which is something that shouldnt have totally disappeared from our maps (it's part of the reason why we see no muta in zvt zvp at the moment).
Why not bring a drone to scout 2rax, exp or gas builds, like every race does? :-)
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Well it seems these two have been vetoed by quite a lot of players, as i've been asking in several streams. Maybe the metagame needs to evolve. Those maps seem well adapted to the mass air style seen in HotS, which cannot be used as is in WoL.
Regarding scouting i always scout as zerg with my 11th drone, but it's only plat so it does not make such a huge difference at my level.
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- overlord placement, not my cup of tea
- expansions, on kirk as well as on akilon i take the 4 that are bunched together, the rest are a pain to get up
- FFE, i open 13 gas every game on both these maps ...
- attack routes, now this is something that is actually interesting... letz start with kirk: early game you can safely dart in and out into main and natural of your opponent with banshees by abusing the air pockets around. There is a nicely sized cliff that can be used for elevator shenanigans. the huge ramp to the natural is practically inviting hellion runbys. all these mapfeatures make for an entertaining and rather agressively paced early game. The midgame is dominated by the open natural 3rd base, only good point about it being the close proximity to your main and natural ramp - you can cover your 3rd and natural if you clump a bunch of tanks in the sweet spot inbetween both. 4th base is a piece of cake, turrets and you are good to go + as you expand your mapcontrol and start to establish a forward defence at your 3rd it becomes way easier to defend as there is somewhat of a choke created by that ledge. anything past 4 bases becomes really really annoying to defend because there suddenly are 3 viable and independent attackpaths into 2 important locations, your 3rd and your 5th (regardless of where you take the 5th). If we compare that to what we had to face in the early game (basically 1 location to defend with 3 attack paths in), things are much more dire now. but if we manage to establish center control we can hold 7 bases while only having to defend 2 attack paths. so to sum it up on kirk we want to be agressive in the early game, defend on 3 bases, attack on 4 and centercamp on 7.
Akilon works very similar in the early game (only exception being the nice siege position at the 4th to bring the hurt right into your opponents main),but has 2 attack paths vs 2 defense locations on 4 bases and becomes a completely different game once you enter 5+ bases as the map cannot easily be narrowed down. i suggest that after taking base 4 you go all out agression and just take whatever base you can get in the meantime.
-how to protect vs drops, use whatever goods your race offers, place overlords build missle turrets leave templar ... its not like this is something new... if you feel you have trouble with anti drop timings practise some metalopolis with a friend.
-proxy pylons and locations, i will not go into as they are as obvious as countless, especially on akilon.
-favored styles, anything that abuses huge ramps will be good. eg hellion/ling runbys , bane busts etc.. cliff plays will be good aka blinkstalker/tankpushes, broodlords attacking the 4th on kirk will be good, counterattack plays vs a 5 base opponent will most defenitly be good!
hum that went on longer then expected .
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I used a veto on akilon wastes because getting 4 bases is just too easy for P and T. Just wall off and park your units in the middle. Also I find it quite annoying how there are no real great spots for my overlords - as far as I can tell. Scouting gases at the natural is a pain. I do use newkirk, but I have had 100% of tosses 2 base or even 1 base all in me because taking a third is pretty damn tough on that map. Sucks how you can't spot early pools with your first overlord though, but I use 15P 16H 15G so early pools don't matter that much to me.
So yeahh.. I'd say veto if you really don't like them.
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They see no play in tournaments, and today blizzard has mentioned their intent to move more into a tournament-based map pool, with faster rotations. So I wouldn't expect these 2 maps to stick around, and therefore I recommend vetoing both of them--it's just a waste of time to practice on them, and frankly they're just not fundamentally well-designed maps. I think the overall archetecture of the base layouts is kind of cool, and I like how big they are--there's just not a lot of fine-tuning to the size and shape of the ramps, the positioning of the watchtowers, etc.
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I veto both now. Akilon Wastes is terrible for overlord scouting and also has a lot of narrow chokes that make engagements bad for zerg. It's also insanely easy for P/T to turtle on 4 bases there.
Newkirk District is not a bad map, but overlord scouting is also tricky there and although there are some nice spots for overlords to hide, the map is simply heavily conducive to giving protoss and terran ridiculously huge economies to pump air armies.
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On January 16 2013 11:29 ineversmile wrote:
They see no play in tournaments, and today blizzard has mentioned their intent to move more into a tournament-based map pool, with faster rotations. So I wouldn't expect these 2 maps to stick around, and therefore I recommend vetoing both of them--it's just a waste of time to practice on them, and frankly they're just not fundamentally well-designed maps. I think the overall archetecture of the base layouts is kind of cool, and I like how big they are--there's just not a lot of fine-tuning to the size and shape of the ramps, the positioning of the watchtowers, etc.
And just now GSL is going to use akilon wastes^^ haha
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On January 16 2013 18:51 Henk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 11:29 ineversmile wrote:
They see no play in tournaments, and today blizzard has mentioned their intent to move more into a tournament-based map pool, with faster rotations. So I wouldn't expect these 2 maps to stick around, and therefore I recommend vetoing both of them--it's just a waste of time to practice on them, and frankly they're just not fundamentally well-designed maps. I think the overall archetecture of the base layouts is kind of cool, and I like how big they are--there's just not a lot of fine-tuning to the size and shape of the ramps, the positioning of the watchtowers, etc. And just now GSL is going to use akilon wastes^^ haha
Yeah, I guess I jinxed it.
God damnit.
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On January 16 2013 07:00 xTrim wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 05:53 Natalya wrote:
As a Z i vetoed both maps. Akilon because it sux for early zvz. You cant wall your natural properly against banelings. I didnt find any proper spine crawler placement.
I vetoed district because it sux for overlord pathing in every match-up. In ZvZ you cant both scout if lings are crossing the map (from something like 6 pool) and scout your opponent's build as you can on every other map. This sux because the ZvZ builds and metagame revolve around overlord scouting clearly. In ZvT you cant scout your opponent's natural. You cant know in time that he didnt expo so you cant know a two rax is coming for instance. In ZvP your overlord arrives a little late to have the information if he gate or forge expo'ed. + You cant see in time if he made a nexus and thus if you are safe from canons.
The only thing district is good for is that it kinda brings back mutalisk because the map is big and because there's dead space behind the main, which is something that shouldnt have totally disappeared from our maps (it's part of the reason why we see no muta in zvt zvp at the moment). Why not bring a drone to scout 2rax, exp or gas builds, like every race does? :-)
Sigh, are you kidding? this debate AGAIN? What you are basically saying is: "On every other map you can spare the 100 minerals early game that a drone scout cost you, because your overlord can reach their natural in time to see if they expoed, but why dont you accept losing 100 minerals and drone scout?" If you want to be behind 100 minerals compared to an standard game, up to you. I'll veto the map. So what you are saying is like : by not vetoing this map you accept to lose the advantage of not having to drone scout, but this advantage is only a little one so why not accept to lose it? I answer there is no little advantage in starcraft. You need every little thing you can get.
And since I dont get anything at all against that thing i lose, there is no point in taking the deal.
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On January 17 2013 03:27 Natalya wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 07:00 xTrim wrote:On January 16 2013 05:53 Natalya wrote:
As a Z i vetoed both maps. Akilon because it sux for early zvz. You cant wall your natural properly against banelings. I didnt find any proper spine crawler placement.
I vetoed district because it sux for overlord pathing in every match-up. In ZvZ you cant both scout if lings are crossing the map (from something like 6 pool) and scout your opponent's build as you can on every other map. This sux because the ZvZ builds and metagame revolve around overlord scouting clearly. In ZvT you cant scout your opponent's natural. You cant know in time that he didnt expo so you cant know a two rax is coming for instance. In ZvP your overlord arrives a little late to have the information if he gate or forge expo'ed. + You cant see in time if he made a nexus and thus if you are safe from canons.
The only thing district is good for is that it kinda brings back mutalisk because the map is big and because there's dead space behind the main, which is something that shouldnt have totally disappeared from our maps (it's part of the reason why we see no muta in zvt zvp at the moment). Why not bring a drone to scout 2rax, exp or gas builds, like every race does? :-) Sigh, are you kidding? this debate AGAIN? What you are basically saying is: "On every other map you can spare the 100 minerals early game that a drone scout cost you, because your overlord can reach their natural in time to see if they expoed, but why dont you accept losing 100 minerals and drone scout?" If you want to be behind 100 minerals compared to an standard game, up to you. I'll veto the map. So what you are saying is like : by not vetoing this map you accept to lose the advantage of not having to drone scout, but this advantage is only a little one so why not accept to lose it? I answer there is no little advantage in starcraft. You need every little thing you can get. And since I dont get anything at all against that thing i lose, there is no point in taking the deal.
What?
In ZvZ I generally send an overlord to the front of my opponents expo to scout for early lings and it makes it there in time. ZvZ is the only match up I will 100% NOT drone scout. If you use your scout actively you can make up for the 100minerals. Also I have the potential to play far greedier if I know what my opponent is doing.
I play both these maps both as a Zerg generally don't use my vetos.
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Umm, I have been playing HotS for a while now, and here is my placement of overlords in ZvZ.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/P9S98.png)
It might not be optimal, but you definitely want to see the middle path first (the red dots first, from far to close), and if you feel insecure, you want to invest some money and get all the watch towers. Take your third on the far left/right side first as Z, almost always, because it is closer to defend with spines once you get some creep out.
Alikon is really not bad of a map. I enjoyed it a lot.
Newkirk is a very straightforward split map, and I think it is kinda hard to get much multi-pronged aggression in that map as Z. (should be easier in WoL than HotS tho because of no collapsable rock, but your third is more vulnerable for that matter)
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"Sigh, are you kidding? this debate AGAIN? What you are basically saying is: "On every other map you can spare the 100 minerals early game that a drone scout cost you, because your overlord can reach their natural in time to see if they expoed, but why dont you accept losing 100 minerals and drone scout?" If you want to be behind 100 minerals compared to an standard game, up to you. I'll veto the map. So what you are saying is like : by not vetoing this map you accept to lose the advantage of not having to drone scout, but this advantage is only a little one so why not accept to lose it? I answer there is no little advantage in starcraft. You need every little thing you can get.
And since I dont get anything at all against that thing i lose, there is no point in taking the deal"
Dude you have to be the one kidding. Both T and P have to scout with their worker (the timing differ depending on what you want to scout) but doing so they do accept loosing the mining time, and maybe even the worker.
Why would Z always have great overlord spot that almost act as mh given the information it gives that early? (thinking of cloud kingdom or daybreak for instance.) It makes sense there are some maps giving such spots, as some maps that dont. In that case you just drone scout and accept the temporaly loss of income like any other races... I guess it's better to scout any cheese and not dying rather than stubbornly not scouting and dying to any cheese?
I dont see any reasoning justifying not to drone scout and then complain about the fact you dont know what coming.
It's like ppl complaining about having to make overseer against dts, or spores against air or anything. This is an RTS game, you have to adapt to the opponent and the map.
Thoses map play out ok, they might need a tiny bit more balance, but they're fairly cool and actually change from the undying antiga, shakuras or any old old maps. They have some interesting dynamics, and the fact they're aint totally Zerg favored as could be some other map (i.e Daybreak) make the game more interesting.
Plus actually instant banning them without even trying to play a bit is narrow minded. It's like auto banning condemned ridge (like maybe 90% of terrans did). Play it, and then maybe veto it. But be open minded.
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On January 16 2013 07:00 xTrim wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 05:53 Natalya wrote:
As a Z i vetoed both maps. Akilon because it sux for early zvz. You cant wall your natural properly against banelings. I didnt find any proper spine crawler placement.
I vetoed district because it sux for overlord pathing in every match-up. In ZvZ you cant both scout if lings are crossing the map (from something like 6 pool) and scout your opponent's build as you can on every other map. This sux because the ZvZ builds and metagame revolve around overlord scouting clearly. In ZvT you cant scout your opponent's natural. You cant know in time that he didnt expo so you cant know a two rax is coming for instance. In ZvP your overlord arrives a little late to have the information if he gate or forge expo'ed. + You cant see in time if he made a nexus and thus if you are safe from canons.
The only thing district is good for is that it kinda brings back mutalisk because the map is big and because there's dead space behind the main, which is something that shouldnt have totally disappeared from our maps (it's part of the reason why we see no muta in zvt zvp at the moment). Why not bring a drone to scout 2rax, exp or gas builds, like every race does? :-)
Where does that foul talk come from?
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I play Terran and I do play both of these maps. I think Alikon has "Xel Naga overkill" going on, I mean does that map really need 4 towers? But overall both maps have played out decent so far.
The biggest reason I did not veto either of these (and instead whacked a veto on Cloud kingdom), is the free Zerg maphack they get on the front of your nat on certain maps. Daybreak isn't quite as bad, but they can still see you moving out for every single early game timing you can have. Cloud is just fucking riduculous with that Ovie just sitting there until mid game.
Maybe it's a lame reason to like the new maps, but not having an ovie see everything I'm doing for 12 minutes just feels better.
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On January 17 2013 08:42 Iron_ wrote:
I play Terran and I do play both of these maps. I think Alikon has "Xel Naga overkill" going on, I mean does that map really need 4 towers? But overall both maps have played out decent so far.
The biggest reason I did not veto either of these (and instead whacked a veto on Cloud kingdom), is the free Zerg maphack they get on the front of your nat on certain maps. Daybreak isn't quite as bad, but they can still see you moving out for every single early game timing you can have. Cloud is just fucking riduculous with that Ovie just sitting there until mid game.
Maybe it's a lame reason to like the new maps, but not having an ovie see everything I'm doing for 12 minutes just feels better.
Can't you build a barracks next to that ledge, get some marines, lift the barracks for vision and then kill it? Don't you usually want to have some raxes on the lowground anyway to serve as a wall?
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I have them both vetoed and have still gotten Akilon 5 or 6 times. I've never once gotten a vetoed map before and I've been playing since damn near release. Anyone else have this issue?
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EPT
