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Hi, dear TL community 
I've been searching for it but i could not find a thread specifically discussing the new (imported from HOTS) maps for WoL. What i'd like to know is what do you think about :
- Overlord placements (and how to avoid having them shot down early since the traveling distances make it very likely)
- Expansions (which are safe), better vs hellion runbys for instance (and fast to take : on akilon wastes, destroy the rocks or take the other, harder to defend but faster possibility ?)
- Best ways to FFE since the ramps are quite big
- Attack routes, which defines chokes (what are the best places for engagement per race)
- How to protect vs drops since the mains tend to be humongous
- Where are the better places for proxy pylons and, in turn, the places where those pylons should be searched for
- Are there styles favored by those new maps (for instance newkirk district seems very drop friendly to me, which would lead to air play)
Any other thoughts you might have (but only in WoL please)
Thanks for any light you could shed on those new items !
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As a Z i vetoed both maps. Akilon because it sux for early zvz. You cant wall your natural properly against banelings. I didnt find any proper spine crawler placement.
I vetoed district because it sux for overlord pathing in every match-up. In ZvZ you cant both scout if lings are crossing the map (from something like 6 pool) and scout your opponent's build as you can on every other map. This sux because the ZvZ builds and metagame revolve around overlord scouting clearly. In ZvT you cant scout your opponent's natural. You cant know in time that he didnt expo so you cant know a two rax is coming for instance. In ZvP your overlord arrives a little late to have the information if he gate or forge expo'ed. + You cant see in time if he made a nexus and thus if you are safe from canons.
The only thing district is good for is that it kinda brings back mutalisk because the map is big and because there's dead space behind the main, which is something that shouldnt have totally disappeared from our maps (it's part of the reason why we see no muta in zvt zvp at the moment).
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On January 16 2013 05:53 Natalya wrote:
As a Z i vetoed both maps. Akilon because it sux for early zvz. You cant wall your natural properly against banelings. I didnt find any proper spine crawler placement.
I vetoed district because it sux for overlord pathing in every match-up. In ZvZ you cant both scout if lings are crossing the map (from something like 6 pool) and scout your opponent's build as you can on every other map. This sux because the ZvZ builds and metagame revolve around overlord scouting clearly. In ZvT you cant scout your opponent's natural. You cant know in time that he didnt expo so you cant know a two rax is coming for instance. In ZvP your overlord arrives a little late to have the information if he gate or forge expo'ed. + You cant see in time if he made a nexus and thus if you are safe from canons.
The only thing district is good for is that it kinda brings back mutalisk because the map is big and because there's dead space behind the main, which is something that shouldnt have totally disappeared from our maps (it's part of the reason why we see no muta in zvt zvp at the moment).
Why not bring a drone to scout 2rax, exp or gas builds, like every race does? :-)
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Well it seems these two have been vetoed by quite a lot of players, as i've been asking in several streams. Maybe the metagame needs to evolve. Those maps seem well adapted to the mass air style seen in HotS, which cannot be used as is in WoL.
Regarding scouting i always scout as zerg with my 11th drone, but it's only plat so it does not make such a huge difference at my level.
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- overlord placement, not my cup of tea
- expansions, on kirk as well as on akilon i take the 4 that are bunched together, the rest are a pain to get up
- FFE, i open 13 gas every game on both these maps ...
- attack routes, now this is something that is actually interesting... letz start with kirk: early game you can safely dart in and out into main and natural of your opponent with banshees by abusing the air pockets around. There is a nicely sized cliff that can be used for elevator shenanigans. the huge ramp to the natural is practically inviting hellion runbys. all these mapfeatures make for an entertaining and rather agressively paced early game. The midgame is dominated by the open natural 3rd base, only good point about it being the close proximity to your main and natural ramp - you can cover your 3rd and natural if you clump a bunch of tanks in the sweet spot inbetween both. 4th base is a piece of cake, turrets and you are good to go + as you expand your mapcontrol and start to establish a forward defence at your 3rd it becomes way easier to defend as there is somewhat of a choke created by that ledge. anything past 4 bases becomes really really annoying to defend because there suddenly are 3 viable and independent attackpaths into 2 important locations, your 3rd and your 5th (regardless of where you take the 5th). If we compare that to what we had to face in the early game (basically 1 location to defend with 3 attack paths in), things are much more dire now. but if we manage to establish center control we can hold 7 bases while only having to defend 2 attack paths. so to sum it up on kirk we want to be agressive in the early game, defend on 3 bases, attack on 4 and centercamp on 7.
Akilon works very similar in the early game (only exception being the nice siege position at the 4th to bring the hurt right into your opponents main),but has 2 attack paths vs 2 defense locations on 4 bases and becomes a completely different game once you enter 5+ bases as the map cannot easily be narrowed down. i suggest that after taking base 4 you go all out agression and just take whatever base you can get in the meantime.
-how to protect vs drops, use whatever goods your race offers, place overlords build missle turrets leave templar ... its not like this is something new... if you feel you have trouble with anti drop timings practise some metalopolis with a friend.
-proxy pylons and locations, i will not go into as they are as obvious as countless, especially on akilon.
-favored styles, anything that abuses huge ramps will be good. eg hellion/ling runbys , bane busts etc.. cliff plays will be good aka blinkstalker/tankpushes, broodlords attacking the 4th on kirk will be good, counterattack plays vs a 5 base opponent will most defenitly be good!
hum that went on longer then expected .
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I used a veto on akilon wastes because getting 4 bases is just too easy for P and T. Just wall off and park your units in the middle. Also I find it quite annoying how there are no real great spots for my overlords - as far as I can tell. Scouting gases at the natural is a pain. I do use newkirk, but I have had 100% of tosses 2 base or even 1 base all in me because taking a third is pretty damn tough on that map. Sucks how you can't spot early pools with your first overlord though, but I use 15P 16H 15G so early pools don't matter that much to me.
So yeahh.. I'd say veto if you really don't like them.
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They see no play in tournaments, and today blizzard has mentioned their intent to move more into a tournament-based map pool, with faster rotations. So I wouldn't expect these 2 maps to stick around, and therefore I recommend vetoing both of them--it's just a waste of time to practice on them, and frankly they're just not fundamentally well-designed maps. I think the overall archetecture of the base layouts is kind of cool, and I like how big they are--there's just not a lot of fine-tuning to the size and shape of the ramps, the positioning of the watchtowers, etc.
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I veto both now. Akilon Wastes is terrible for overlord scouting and also has a lot of narrow chokes that make engagements bad for zerg. It's also insanely easy for P/T to turtle on 4 bases there.
Newkirk District is not a bad map, but overlord scouting is also tricky there and although there are some nice spots for overlords to hide, the map is simply heavily conducive to giving protoss and terran ridiculously huge economies to pump air armies.
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On January 16 2013 11:29 ineversmile wrote:
They see no play in tournaments, and today blizzard has mentioned their intent to move more into a tournament-based map pool, with faster rotations. So I wouldn't expect these 2 maps to stick around, and therefore I recommend vetoing both of them--it's just a waste of time to practice on them, and frankly they're just not fundamentally well-designed maps. I think the overall archetecture of the base layouts is kind of cool, and I like how big they are--there's just not a lot of fine-tuning to the size and shape of the ramps, the positioning of the watchtowers, etc.
And just now GSL is going to use akilon wastes^^ haha
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On January 16 2013 18:51 Henk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 11:29 ineversmile wrote:
They see no play in tournaments, and today blizzard has mentioned their intent to move more into a tournament-based map pool, with faster rotations. So I wouldn't expect these 2 maps to stick around, and therefore I recommend vetoing both of them--it's just a waste of time to practice on them, and frankly they're just not fundamentally well-designed maps. I think the overall archetecture of the base layouts is kind of cool, and I like how big they are--there's just not a lot of fine-tuning to the size and shape of the ramps, the positioning of the watchtowers, etc. And just now GSL is going to use akilon wastes^^ haha
Yeah, I guess I jinxed it.
God damnit.
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On January 16 2013 07:00 xTrim wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 05:53 Natalya wrote:
As a Z i vetoed both maps. Akilon because it sux for early zvz. You cant wall your natural properly against banelings. I didnt find any proper spine crawler placement.
I vetoed district because it sux for overlord pathing in every match-up. In ZvZ you cant both scout if lings are crossing the map (from something like 6 pool) and scout your opponent's build as you can on every other map. This sux because the ZvZ builds and metagame revolve around overlord scouting clearly. In ZvT you cant scout your opponent's natural. You cant know in time that he didnt expo so you cant know a two rax is coming for instance. In ZvP your overlord arrives a little late to have the information if he gate or forge expo'ed. + You cant see in time if he made a nexus and thus if you are safe from canons.
The only thing district is good for is that it kinda brings back mutalisk because the map is big and because there's dead space behind the main, which is something that shouldnt have totally disappeared from our maps (it's part of the reason why we see no muta in zvt zvp at the moment). Why not bring a drone to scout 2rax, exp or gas builds, like every race does? :-)
Sigh, are you kidding? this debate AGAIN? What you are basically saying is: "On every other map you can spare the 100 minerals early game that a drone scout cost you, because your overlord can reach their natural in time to see if they expoed, but why dont you accept losing 100 minerals and drone scout?" If you want to be behind 100 minerals compared to an standard game, up to you. I'll veto the map. So what you are saying is like : by not vetoing this map you accept to lose the advantage of not having to drone scout, but this advantage is only a little one so why not accept to lose it? I answer there is no little advantage in starcraft. You need every little thing you can get.
And since I dont get anything at all against that thing i lose, there is no point in taking the deal.
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On January 17 2013 03:27 Natalya wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 07:00 xTrim wrote:On January 16 2013 05:53 Natalya wrote:
As a Z i vetoed both maps. Akilon because it sux for early zvz. You cant wall your natural properly against banelings. I didnt find any proper spine crawler placement.
I vetoed district because it sux for overlord pathing in every match-up. In ZvZ you cant both scout if lings are crossing the map (from something like 6 pool) and scout your opponent's build as you can on every other map. This sux because the ZvZ builds and metagame revolve around overlord scouting clearly. In ZvT you cant scout your opponent's natural. You cant know in time that he didnt expo so you cant know a two rax is coming for instance. In ZvP your overlord arrives a little late to have the information if he gate or forge expo'ed. + You cant see in time if he made a nexus and thus if you are safe from canons.
The only thing district is good for is that it kinda brings back mutalisk because the map is big and because there's dead space behind the main, which is something that shouldnt have totally disappeared from our maps (it's part of the reason why we see no muta in zvt zvp at the moment). Why not bring a drone to scout 2rax, exp or gas builds, like every race does? :-) Sigh, are you kidding? this debate AGAIN? What you are basically saying is: "On every other map you can spare the 100 minerals early game that a drone scout cost you, because your overlord can reach their natural in time to see if they expoed, but why dont you accept losing 100 minerals and drone scout?" If you want to be behind 100 minerals compared to an standard game, up to you. I'll veto the map. So what you are saying is like : by not vetoing this map you accept to lose the advantage of not having to drone scout, but this advantage is only a little one so why not accept to lose it? I answer there is no little advantage in starcraft. You need every little thing you can get. And since I dont get anything at all against that thing i lose, there is no point in taking the deal.
What?
In ZvZ I generally send an overlord to the front of my opponents expo to scout for early lings and it makes it there in time. ZvZ is the only match up I will 100% NOT drone scout. If you use your scout actively you can make up for the 100minerals. Also I have the potential to play far greedier if I know what my opponent is doing.
I play both these maps both as a Zerg generally don't use my vetos.
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Umm, I have been playing HotS for a while now, and here is my placement of overlords in ZvZ.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/P9S98.png)
It might not be optimal, but you definitely want to see the middle path first (the red dots first, from far to close), and if you feel insecure, you want to invest some money and get all the watch towers. Take your third on the far left/right side first as Z, almost always, because it is closer to defend with spines once you get some creep out.
Alikon is really not bad of a map. I enjoyed it a lot.
Newkirk is a very straightforward split map, and I think it is kinda hard to get much multi-pronged aggression in that map as Z. (should be easier in WoL than HotS tho because of no collapsable rock, but your third is more vulnerable for that matter)
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"Sigh, are you kidding? this debate AGAIN? What you are basically saying is: "On every other map you can spare the 100 minerals early game that a drone scout cost you, because your overlord can reach their natural in time to see if they expoed, but why dont you accept losing 100 minerals and drone scout?" If you want to be behind 100 minerals compared to an standard game, up to you. I'll veto the map. So what you are saying is like : by not vetoing this map you accept to lose the advantage of not having to drone scout, but this advantage is only a little one so why not accept to lose it? I answer there is no little advantage in starcraft. You need every little thing you can get.
And since I dont get anything at all against that thing i lose, there is no point in taking the deal"
Dude you have to be the one kidding. Both T and P have to scout with their worker (the timing differ depending on what you want to scout) but doing so they do accept loosing the mining time, and maybe even the worker.
Why would Z always have great overlord spot that almost act as mh given the information it gives that early? (thinking of cloud kingdom or daybreak for instance.) It makes sense there are some maps giving such spots, as some maps that dont. In that case you just drone scout and accept the temporaly loss of income like any other races... I guess it's better to scout any cheese and not dying rather than stubbornly not scouting and dying to any cheese?
I dont see any reasoning justifying not to drone scout and then complain about the fact you dont know what coming.
It's like ppl complaining about having to make overseer against dts, or spores against air or anything. This is an RTS game, you have to adapt to the opponent and the map.
Thoses map play out ok, they might need a tiny bit more balance, but they're fairly cool and actually change from the undying antiga, shakuras or any old old maps. They have some interesting dynamics, and the fact they're aint totally Zerg favored as could be some other map (i.e Daybreak) make the game more interesting.
Plus actually instant banning them without even trying to play a bit is narrow minded. It's like auto banning condemned ridge (like maybe 90% of terrans did). Play it, and then maybe veto it. But be open minded.
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On January 16 2013 07:00 xTrim wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 05:53 Natalya wrote:
As a Z i vetoed both maps. Akilon because it sux for early zvz. You cant wall your natural properly against banelings. I didnt find any proper spine crawler placement.
I vetoed district because it sux for overlord pathing in every match-up. In ZvZ you cant both scout if lings are crossing the map (from something like 6 pool) and scout your opponent's build as you can on every other map. This sux because the ZvZ builds and metagame revolve around overlord scouting clearly. In ZvT you cant scout your opponent's natural. You cant know in time that he didnt expo so you cant know a two rax is coming for instance. In ZvP your overlord arrives a little late to have the information if he gate or forge expo'ed. + You cant see in time if he made a nexus and thus if you are safe from canons.
The only thing district is good for is that it kinda brings back mutalisk because the map is big and because there's dead space behind the main, which is something that shouldnt have totally disappeared from our maps (it's part of the reason why we see no muta in zvt zvp at the moment). Why not bring a drone to scout 2rax, exp or gas builds, like every race does? :-)
Where does that foul talk come from?
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I play Terran and I do play both of these maps. I think Alikon has "Xel Naga overkill" going on, I mean does that map really need 4 towers? But overall both maps have played out decent so far.
The biggest reason I did not veto either of these (and instead whacked a veto on Cloud kingdom), is the free Zerg maphack they get on the front of your nat on certain maps. Daybreak isn't quite as bad, but they can still see you moving out for every single early game timing you can have. Cloud is just fucking riduculous with that Ovie just sitting there until mid game.
Maybe it's a lame reason to like the new maps, but not having an ovie see everything I'm doing for 12 minutes just feels better.
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On January 17 2013 08:42 Iron_ wrote:
I play Terran and I do play both of these maps. I think Alikon has "Xel Naga overkill" going on, I mean does that map really need 4 towers? But overall both maps have played out decent so far.
The biggest reason I did not veto either of these (and instead whacked a veto on Cloud kingdom), is the free Zerg maphack they get on the front of your nat on certain maps. Daybreak isn't quite as bad, but they can still see you moving out for every single early game timing you can have. Cloud is just fucking riduculous with that Ovie just sitting there until mid game.
Maybe it's a lame reason to like the new maps, but not having an ovie see everything I'm doing for 12 minutes just feels better.
Can't you build a barracks next to that ledge, get some marines, lift the barracks for vision and then kill it? Don't you usually want to have some raxes on the lowground anyway to serve as a wall?
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I have them both vetoed and have still gotten Akilon 5 or 6 times. I've never once gotten a vetoed map before and I've been playing since damn near release. Anyone else have this issue?
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On January 17 2013 08:50 Henk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 08:42 Iron_ wrote:
I play Terran and I do play both of these maps. I think Alikon has "Xel Naga overkill" going on, I mean does that map really need 4 towers? But overall both maps have played out decent so far.
The biggest reason I did not veto either of these (and instead whacked a veto on Cloud kingdom), is the free Zerg maphack they get on the front of your nat on certain maps. Daybreak isn't quite as bad, but they can still see you moving out for every single early game timing you can have. Cloud is just fucking riduculous with that Ovie just sitting there until mid game.
Maybe it's a lame reason to like the new maps, but not having an ovie see everything I'm doing for 12 minutes just feels better.
Can't you build a barracks next to that ledge, get some marines, lift the barracks for vision and then kill it? Don't you usually want to have some raxes on the lowground anyway to serve as a wall?
Your barracks needs to either be making marines or building add-ons early on. There is a reason you never see people placing barracks not in the wall off to kill overlords anymore.
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Hey all,
By not drone scouting you may lose 100 minerals, but that makes up for a lost game doesn't it?
Regards Jake~
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On January 17 2013 08:55 Cainam wrote:
I have them both vetoed and have still gotten Akilon 5 or 6 times. I've never once gotten a vetoed map before and I've been playing since damn near release. Anyone else have this issue?
You understand that just because something is vetoed doesn't mean you won't get it, right? it all depends on what the other play has Vetoed, and what available players are on the server that match your skill level.
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It just means you have a higher chance of avoiding depending on the amount of people player when your on. Their skill level, and there vetoed maps.
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When I play this map I tend to expand in a horizontal line so that it's easier for me (as a Terran player) to defend consequent expansions since it's on the path to my opponent. This gives me a pretty good supply line and I reinforce this by walling off the top or bottom of these expansions (depending on the spawn positions).
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Newkirk is just kind of bad IMO. The 3rd base is hard to secure, the main base is huge. Overall terrible for a protoss player like me, and if that wasn't enough, the air distance to the other main is really close while the ground distance is super long, which means stuff like drops are super annoying.
I played Newkirk a few times, and the only good thing I could say about it for protoss is that the drop route is really obvious, terrans can circle around to the back, but most just drop on the side as it's super convenient. I vetoed the map anyways though, because its just too hard to get a 3rd while defending against constant threat of drops with a huge main.
I love Akilon Flats vs. terran, because the rush distance is long, it's easy to spot drops/counter attacks, and it's easy to get a 3rd base. Makes either turtling with double forge colossus or going kcdc's quick templar style both really good. I don't quite like vs. zerg though, because the watch towers literally cover every inch of the map, meaning it's impossible to move out without zerg knowing, and it's kind of annoying to deal with mutas on this map with a 3rd base, also 2 base all-ins are much weaker because zerg can always see it coming + the rush distance is quite long.
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I banned Newkirk. It's a nightmare in PvZ. You can't hold your 3rd against early aggression because it is extremely wide open. Try to do some simcity there... nearly impossible. I'd usually say just to immortal/sentry all-in on this map but even this is not a good idea. In PvT and PvP Newkirk is a decent map.
Akilon Flats is a good map for protoss, I think. I dislike the very wide ramp, you have to wall off with your cyber core in PvZ, but you can take your 3rd easily as a protoss. In PvT drops are pretty easily defendable which is also pretty nice.
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Reading through the comments i find it pretty funny that the only thing everybody agrees opon is that the maps are bad for their respective races. have anyone actually played more than 5 games on each map?
for me:
NewKirk offers a pretty good 3rd base for terran, in that its close to your natural ramp, and fall inline with the attack path.
The exceptionally big main has caused probblems for me, in form of drops, and nydus play, even if you scout it you cant reach it in time. So i spend extra time to build a couple of turrets, and have a few units stationed there all game long. Also the watch towers in the middle of the map offers map control at a very very low price. this goes for every race. once you have both towers, you only need to worry about a drop.
Akilon flats: Again watchtowers cover the diagional of the map (why blizzard?) cubbled with the fact of a long rush distance and an easy accessable third, i predict a fair number of greedy vs greedier openings.
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I don't think there's anything wrong with the match-ups on these maps; I think there are just fundamental issues with their architecture. Maybe the GSL version of Wastes will fix the GIANT-ass ramp so that it takes under a billion buildings to wall it off, as any race, so that the expansion can be protected from speedlings or hellions.
I also think that there are too many places to hide proxy buildings on the map in Akilon Wastes. I say too many because it's basically a joke to try to scout those locations. Between this and the giant ramp, I vehemently hate playing PvP on this map. Basically, I'm never going to know if proxy gates are coming, I can't realistically put a stalker at any of the watchtowers and expect it to come home for defense, and I can't expect sentries to hold that expansion ramp. The watchtowers on that map might as well just be giant middle fingers, pointed at me--because that's about all the use that I have for them.
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On January 17 2013 10:16 Severe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 08:55 Cainam wrote:
I have them both vetoed and have still gotten Akilon 5 or 6 times. I've never once gotten a vetoed map before and I've been playing since damn near release. Anyone else have this issue? You understand that just because something is vetoed doesn't mean you won't get it, right? it all depends on what the other play has Vetoed, and what available players are on the server that match your skill level.
Dunno why you felt it necessary to take such a dickish tone. That doesn't make much sense though if that is the way it is. Even if both players vetoed 3 completely different maps that still leaves 2 maps unvetoed by both players to play on.
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On January 17 2013 08:55 Cainam wrote:
I have them both vetoed and have still gotten Akilon 5 or 6 times. I've never once gotten a vetoed map before and I've been playing since damn near release. Anyone else have this issue?
Because ita not a veto. It's a priority system, the ones you've chosen have less priority but they may still be picked.
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I find these maps just a bit too large for terran because I suck at the lategame vs toss and zerg. Having said that, I just un-vetoe'd them because it feels like almost everyone has vetoed antiga shipyard and cloud kingdom so TvP and TvZ is almost always on entombed or daybreak.
I wish shakuras plateau, some variant of lost temple and even xel naga towers were back in the map rotation. They were my favourite maps for my playstyle, which is very unpolished.
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On January 27 2013 15:07 antz0r wrote:
I find these maps just a bit too large for terran because I suck at the lategame vs toss and zerg. Having said that, I just un-vetoe'd them because it feels like almost everyone has vetoed antiga shipyard and cloud kingdom so TvP and TvZ is almost always on entombed or daybreak.
I wish shakuras plateau, some variant of lost temple and even xel naga towers were back in the map rotation. They were my favourite maps for my playstyle, which is very unpolished.
Your favorite maps for 11-11?
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newkirk is pretty shitty in zvz, because it's so hard to really scout every pathway early on. once the game stabilizes it's ok, but not fantastic. in zvt I often face drop heavy styles, where terrans try to drop between the main and the 3rd.
overall, I prefer akilon over newkirk, even though many games turn into turtlefests. (especially in zvp) on the other hand, quick max strategies are fairly strong on newkirk against tosses who aren't doing a proper opening.
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These maps are frustrating to play on. I hope blizz just remove both of these maps
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On January 28 2013 11:13 akarin wrote:
These maps are frustrating to play on. I hope blizz just remove both of these maps
Akilon was picked up by both GSL and PL. It is here for the ride best try to enjoy it's company. Not going anywhere. Even MLG might actually join on this one as it is a ladder map.
As for Newkirk well i don't know. I feel they should get rid of some of the older maps before looking into this one(Antiga is nearing 2 years anniversary).
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Just my two cents, but it seems like I'm having a lot of trouble in TvX simply because of the lack of space. I'm not sure if it just feels small or if it actually is smaller than most maps, but the lack of room for Barracks/Facts/Star ports is really hurting me.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On January 17 2013 08:55 Cainam wrote:
I have them both vetoed and have still gotten Akilon 5 or 6 times. I've never once gotten a vetoed map before and I've been playing since damn near release. Anyone else have this issue?
I thought when you veto a map it states that they are less likely to come up, not that they won't?
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On January 16 2013 11:14 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 09:22 Henk wrote:
I used a veto on akilon wastes because getting 4 bases is just too easy for P and T. Just wall off and park your units in the middle. This may lead me to use one on Akilon as well. I always feel like I am screwed if I can't pressure Terran or Toss (especially if Terran is going mech). Roach aggression is really fucking awful which encourages Protoss turtling on this map.
Akilon wastes flats is a great muta map though. And all the high level zergs go spire on it, it seems, judging from tournaments and streams.
As protoss it's really hard to protect all your mineral lines while still holding the middle, so you basically have so much map control that you can do whatever you want.
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On January 17 2013 03:27 Natalya wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 07:00 xTrim wrote:On January 16 2013 05:53 Natalya wrote:
As a Z i vetoed both maps. Akilon because it sux for early zvz. You cant wall your natural properly against banelings. I didnt find any proper spine crawler placement.
I vetoed district because it sux for overlord pathing in every match-up. In ZvZ you cant both scout if lings are crossing the map (from something like 6 pool) and scout your opponent's build as you can on every other map. This sux because the ZvZ builds and metagame revolve around overlord scouting clearly. In ZvT you cant scout your opponent's natural. You cant know in time that he didnt expo so you cant know a two rax is coming for instance. In ZvP your overlord arrives a little late to have the information if he gate or forge expo'ed. + You cant see in time if he made a nexus and thus if you are safe from canons.
The only thing district is good for is that it kinda brings back mutalisk because the map is big and because there's dead space behind the main, which is something that shouldnt have totally disappeared from our maps (it's part of the reason why we see no muta in zvt zvp at the moment). Why not bring a drone to scout 2rax, exp or gas builds, like every race does? :-) Sigh, are you kidding? this debate AGAIN? What you are basically saying is: "On every other map you can spare the 100 minerals early game that a drone scout cost you, because your overlord can reach their natural in time to see if they expoed, but why dont you accept losing 100 minerals and drone scout?" If you want to be behind 100 minerals compared to an standard game, up to you. I'll veto the map. So what you are saying is like : by not vetoing this map you accept to lose the advantage of not having to drone scout, but this advantage is only a little one so why not accept to lose it? I answer there is no little advantage in starcraft. You need every little thing you can get. And since I dont get anything at all against that thing i lose, there is no point in taking the deal.
you are correct that you are 100 minerals behind on newkirk
however, i strongly disagree that its a bad map for zerg
you are 100 minerals behind early as zerg on this map, but the benefit of the map being so large makes it extremely zerg friendly. trust me many tosses and terrans HATE facing a good zerk on newkirk, and trust me its a extremely zerg friendly map due to its size allowed to easy massive surrounds. the attackpaths on the map have zero useful chokepoints (something toss/terran needs to fight zerg well)
if you dont like newkirk thats fine, just letting you know however that the map would have insane 80%+ winrates for zerg in gsl. but it likely will never reach GSL (i hope)
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On February 03 2013 00:45 Targe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 08:55 Cainam wrote:
I have them both vetoed and have still gotten Akilon 5 or 6 times. I've never once gotten a vetoed map before and I've been playing since damn near release. Anyone else have this issue? I thought when you veto a map it states that they are less likely to come up, not that they won't?
That is only relevant in 3v3s and 4v4s where the map pools are smaller and chances are smaller to find a map everyone agrees on.
In 1v1s there will always be at least 2 maps which neither player have vetoed which should mean you never get to play on vetoed maps.
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EPT
