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[G] TheStaircase - An Alternative Improvement Method - Pag…

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Elyon
Profile Joined April 2013
Denmark2 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-18 14:34:47
April 18 2013 14:34 GMT
#761
@htou
Marines only cost minerals. They're built from Barracks which incidentally also only cost minerals.

Enjoy your ascent
Antylamon
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1981 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-19 19:09:55
April 19 2013 19:09 GMT
#762
Can someone explain the new layout to me? I'm having trouble understanding it due to not being around for four months. :/

For example, the steps are not precise enough imo since it doesn't specify when/if you can start mining gas, when/if you can ever start microing, and there's even a typo, as in "unitl."

I can always make my own assumptions, but in the mean time, I just want the process to have less room for misinterpretation.
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
April 19 2013 19:11 GMT
#763
Hey Anty!

I'll put in some more specifics to be clear.
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
colonelvirus
Profile Joined July 2010
United Kingdom42 Posts
April 19 2013 19:15 GMT
#764
On April 18 2013 19:19 htou wrote:
I have been casually playing WOLs vs AI for about 3 weeks so im spanking new to the SC2 world. Stumbled on this very interesting thread but im a bit confused.

I play terran so at step 1 all i have to do is mine, no gas and attack move. What am i attacking with if i cant build battle units till step 2? SCV's?


Ha this is a good point, it doesn't actually say build attacking units, just to mine minerals. As marines are the only attacking unit you can buy exclusively with minerals, build these and a attack. Once you've pass 3/5 games (personally I'm doing 15 games per step) move up to step 2, where you can build marines, or you can start mining gas and build one of the other units.

I'm still on marines at the moment, added in upgrades. Once my spending in all 15 games in a row is platinum and above, I'll move on to another unit. I'm overly harsh on myself though.
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
April 19 2013 19:19 GMT
#765
@colonelvirus

I think it would be more harsh on yourself to get 3/5 GM benchmarks then 15 games in a row Platinum Benchmarks
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
Antylamon
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1981 Posts
April 19 2013 22:41 GMT
#766
Does being maxed count as a hard SB? I had about 50 rax, lol.
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
April 19 2013 23:22 GMT
#767
No, maxing out doesn't count. Once you hit x/200 you can stop keeping track
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
Becuula
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany65 Posts
April 20 2013 07:12 GMT
#768
After a longer SC2 break I wanted to restart playing with TheStaircase. Here is my feedback

I really like the layout of the new document. It's much cleaner now.
I like the Idea of having given units and buildings. Playing as Protoss without detection or no protection with the NexusCannon is no fun.
While using ggtracker I think the Nexus Chronoboost chart is wonderful. A similiar chart for supply blocks would be very nice.

The first 4 steps of the Staircase feels the same as before if I use the BattleUnits in order of the sheet. But then I get lost a little bit. Which units to choose? It costs me too much time. For a learning method I need more guidance, less freedom.
And I am not sure if there is a fun way not playing with Zealots. I really like the idea of someone to see Zealots as a given unit.
Maybe I will continue with a mix of the old and new method for Step5: I choose 4 Units for each round. 3 of them are the basic Gateway Units (Zealot/Stalker/Sentry) and the fourth one is a new battle Unit.

I still have my issues with ggtracker. It really confuses me that it automatically puts some of my games in the list. Still don't know which games are shown and which not (because there are not all of my games). Besides the spending skill I get no usefull information about the game. I need at least the opponents name or the information if it was a ladder or custom game. If I click on an automatic game I see no charts. My suggestion would be not to pull games automatically, if it is not possible to pull all games and show all information.

Overall I really like principles of TheStaircase and ggracker to improve my mechanics. Thanks for your work!
It is difficulties which give birth to miracles.
htou
Profile Joined April 2013
Australia11 Posts
April 20 2013 08:09 GMT
#769
On April 20 2013 04:15 colonelvirus wrote:
I'm still on marines at the moment, added in upgrades. Once my spending in all 15 games in a row is platinum and above, I'll move on to another unit. I'm overly harsh on myself though.


How are you doing upgrades? Don't they need gas?

Been playing a couple of times this week using the core and staircase. I can safely say that my game has improved but I can see a lot of flaws (with my game). I think I'll be on step 1 for awhile. Doesn't help that all my games are against the AI due to a horrible connection - dam AI Terran, they shred me every time.
lomi
Profile Joined March 2011
France10 Posts
April 20 2013 12:35 GMT
#770
On April 20 2013 17:09 htou wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 20 2013 04:15 colonelvirus wrote:
I'm still on marines at the moment, added in upgrades. Once my spending in all 15 games in a row is platinum and above, I'll move on to another unit. I'm overly harsh on myself though.


How are you doing upgrades? Don't they need gas?

Been playing a couple of times this week using the core and staircase. I can safely say that my game has improved but I can see a lot of flaws (with my game). I think I'll be on step 1 for awhile. Doesn't help that all my games are against the AI due to a horrible connection - dam AI Terran, they shred me every time.


You simply don't do them. You have to focus on very basic mechanics : Controle Group, Camera location, use of the keyboard, and very basic macro : saturation, expense. I have done a lot of game against IA at the beginings, it is realy helpful and help to be focused more on the Improvment than on the Win. I had quite hard time to convice me to leave game when i was doing wrong against player.
htou
Profile Joined April 2013
Australia11 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-20 15:45:42
April 20 2013 14:38 GMT
#771
Cheers Iomi, at the moment I litter my base with raxs. I struggle to take my third most times. I don't fully saturate my bases and I can't help but to get involved in battles. Hotkey mechanics are better but a long way to go. I use to struggle against hard AI but now im on the harder level I'm starting to win these games quite easily EDIT: im now getting spanked. practice makes perfect I guess.
Aterons_toss
Profile Joined February 2011
Romania1275 Posts
April 20 2013 15:46 GMT
#772
I think this might be a bit to extreme, but it is true that most people that are bellow plat/diamond and have played over 500-1000 games ( of which there are many ) would never be that way if they stopped thinking about the game like something where pro meta game or very high end meta game can be applied to a level lower than pro or very high with the same results without being able to see the whole picture of that meta game in the first place.

By doing something like marine/med only you are going to the other extreme which i also think is not good, it's better for improvement but you take away almost all strategical thinking which, in my opinion, makes it kinda dull.

What people that aren't good should be doing is trying to figure out the game on their own not trying to apply strategies they saw done by very good player vs very good players ( players that sometime play 14+ hours a day and their mechanics allow them to think of the game and to use strategies that even a very good player that isn't playing this game full time wouldn't be able to do ), if you are not able to do that whoever I would think this can be a good method to get better and than focus on strategy.
A good strategy means leaving your opponent room to make mistakes
Josealtron
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States219 Posts
April 20 2013 18:28 GMT
#773
I'm a little confused on step 1 for Zerg. Are you allowed to make lings, or just queens?
"If you give up on yourself, you give up on the world."
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-20 21:55:29
April 20 2013 21:39 GMT
#774
@Jose
You are allowed to do anything you can do with minerals. Since lings and queens cost only minerals, and the spawning pool costs only minerals, then you can build them.

On April 21 2013 00:46 Aterons_toss wrote:
I think this might be a bit to extreme, but it is true that most people that are bellow plat/diamond and have played over 500-1000 games ( of which there are many ) would never be that way if they stopped thinking about the game like something where pro meta game or very high end meta game can be applied to a level lower than pro or very high with the same results without being able to see the whole picture of that meta game in the first place.

By doing something like marine/med only you are going to the other extreme which i also think is not good, it's better for improvement but you take away almost all strategical thinking which, in my opinion, makes it kinda dull.

What people that aren't good should be doing is trying to figure out the game on their own not trying to apply strategies they saw done by very good player vs very good players ( players that sometime play 14+ hours a day and their mechanics allow them to think of the game and to use strategies that even a very good player that isn't playing this game full time wouldn't be able to do ), if you are not able to do that whoever I would think this can be a good method to get better and than focus on strategy.


Keep in mind that marine/medivac only doesn't last forever, its just the beginning. It gives a framework for the player to understand the basics of economy technology and army, and other general strategic things by exploring them in game rather than being told to do a certain build or strategy without understanding why. TheStaircase is designed to start someone out that has never played Sc2 before and build a strong foundation for them so that they can understand the game more completely. Also, the first couple of steps are insanely fun and hilarious and help take the edge off of ladder anxiety and put the focus more towards having fun while improving at the game.

On April 20 2013 16:12 Becuula wrote:
After a longer SC2 break I wanted to restart playing with TheStaircase. Here is my feedback

I really like the layout of the new document. It's much cleaner now.
I like the Idea of having given units and buildings. Playing as Protoss without detection or no protection with the NexusCannon is no fun.
While using ggtracker I think the Nexus Chronoboost chart is wonderful. A similiar chart for supply blocks would be very nice.

The first 4 steps of the Staircase feels the same as before if I use the BattleUnits in order of the sheet. But then I get lost a little bit. Which units to choose? It costs me too much time. For a learning method I need more guidance, less freedom.
And I am not sure if there is a fun way not playing with Zealots. I really like the idea of someone to see Zealots as a given unit.
Maybe I will continue with a mix of the old and new method for Step5: I choose 4 Units for each round. 3 of them are the basic Gateway Units (Zealot/Stalker/Sentry) and the fourth one is a new battle Unit.

I still have my issues with ggtracker. It really confuses me that it automatically puts some of my games in the list. Still don't know which games are shown and which not (because there are not all of my games). Besides the spending skill I get no usefull information about the game. I need at least the opponents name or the information if it was a ladder or custom game. If I click on an automatic game I see no charts. My suggestion would be not to pull games automatically, if it is not possible to pull all games and show all information.

Overall I really like principles of TheStaircase and ggracker to improve my mechanics. Thanks for your work!



For TheStaircase 6.0 we will have new statistics for ggtracker. Spending and Race Macro are already there, but we will also have Saturation and Supply benchmarks/metrics

I definitely like the idea of keeping the mineral only unit as a given unit. For terran should I include the hellion/hellbat?
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
lomi
Profile Joined March 2011
France10 Posts
April 20 2013 22:02 GMT
#775
Thanks to TheStaircase (and TheCore) I went from silver to plat in less than 50 games and continue to improve. But I have hard time to switch from Marine/tank/medivac (+/- maurauder). Maybe the hardest part for me is "try to improve now, not win now". Must work on it !
ExKkaMaGui
Profile Joined January 2012
75 Posts
April 20 2013 22:18 GMT
#776
On October 10 2012 06:49 ishyishy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2012 06:34 SwordfishConspiracy wrote:
On October 10 2012 06:24 ishyishy wrote:
Dont think it needs to be this complicated. Improving at the game comes down to 1 thing: enjoyment. It really is that simple. If you enjoy the game, you will play it when you have the time, and you will eventually get better at it because you are encouraged to play more. If you dont enjoy it, and you are miserable and frustrated, you will spend less time playing and wont even want to imrove.

If i stopped to think about this much crap every time i play, id be wasting time. Just grind games, hopefully you enjoy the game, and the improvement will come. That doesnt mean you have no skill ceiling; you might hit a wall somewhere, and you should be ok with that. If you arent, then sorry there is nothing anyone else can do for you. Either stay mad or move on (i suggest league of legends, far far easier and stress-free ).


If your goal is to play the game purely for enjoyment, sure, but this is for people who want to improve their skills and play the game at a higher level. Just saying "next game I'll play better" is a really poor way to improve. SC2 is a macro focused game; it's much, much, much more important to macro effectively than it is to play with good strategy. This system makes sure your macro is top notch before you event start to think about complex strategies. And there's a lot of really effective things you can do even at the early levels with upgrade timing attacks, harass play, etc. I've won quite a few games in mid-high diamond by massing lings and harass + counter attacks.



Ok so wait...are you spouting all this macro nonsense in an attempt to argue with me about something? lol

Look, if forcing yourself to play and stressing yourself over improvement is your way of enjoying the game, then by all means keep doing it. Like i said, enjoyment is the only thing that matters at the end of the day. If you know anyone that improves at a game or a hobby or a sport by hating it and being frustrated over it with no enjoyment, please let me know, id like to meet this person lol.


Actually, as weird as it may seem, I dont like what I do although I dont hate it, but I put it a lot of time and I improve. I wont mention what it is because its personal.
Josealtron
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States219 Posts
April 20 2013 23:19 GMT
#777
Thanks JaKaTaK. Loving the staircase, it's definitely helped my macro . Hitting Step 2 now!
"If you give up on yourself, you give up on the world."
Antylamon
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1981 Posts
April 21 2013 04:10 GMT
#778
On April 21 2013 07:18 ExKkaMaGui wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2012 06:49 ishyishy wrote:
On October 10 2012 06:34 SwordfishConspiracy wrote:
On October 10 2012 06:24 ishyishy wrote:
Dont think it needs to be this complicated. Improving at the game comes down to 1 thing: enjoyment. It really is that simple. If you enjoy the game, you will play it when you have the time, and you will eventually get better at it because you are encouraged to play more. If you dont enjoy it, and you are miserable and frustrated, you will spend less time playing and wont even want to imrove.

If i stopped to think about this much crap every time i play, id be wasting time. Just grind games, hopefully you enjoy the game, and the improvement will come. That doesnt mean you have no skill ceiling; you might hit a wall somewhere, and you should be ok with that. If you arent, then sorry there is nothing anyone else can do for you. Either stay mad or move on (i suggest league of legends, far far easier and stress-free ).


If your goal is to play the game purely for enjoyment, sure, but this is for people who want to improve their skills and play the game at a higher level. Just saying "next game I'll play better" is a really poor way to improve. SC2 is a macro focused game; it's much, much, much more important to macro effectively than it is to play with good strategy. This system makes sure your macro is top notch before you event start to think about complex strategies. And there's a lot of really effective things you can do even at the early levels with upgrade timing attacks, harass play, etc. I've won quite a few games in mid-high diamond by massing lings and harass + counter attacks.



Ok so wait...are you spouting all this macro nonsense in an attempt to argue with me about something? lol

Look, if forcing yourself to play and stressing yourself over improvement is your way of enjoying the game, then by all means keep doing it. Like i said, enjoyment is the only thing that matters at the end of the day. If you know anyone that improves at a game or a hobby or a sport by hating it and being frustrated over it with no enjoyment, please let me know, id like to meet this person lol.


Actually, as weird as it may seem, I dont like what I do although I dont hate it, but I put it a lot of time and I improve. I wont mention what it is because its personal.


You're responding to a half-year-old post. :I
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
April 21 2013 04:26 GMT
#779
I thought that post was out of nowhere...
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
Tennet
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1458 Posts
April 21 2013 19:21 GMT
#780
So since I started playing again after a year and a half break, I decided to follow this to improve and learn the core. I've been doing step 1 and every time i win i can't help but laugh hysterically at the end, why is this so fun!?
"The harder it gets, the more you need to focus on the basics." - Seo Gyung Jong
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