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[D] Analyzing Flash's ability to use the keyboard - Page 3

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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From page 2, stick to discussion about actual strategy.
JuiceBoxHero
Profile Joined January 2011
117 Posts
September 26 2012 07:59 GMT
#41
Flash is such a baller it makes me wanna use his hotkeys, but 1a is death and 0 for cc's is insane. I have very large hands btw and I really like ring for attack but I prefer 2 and 3 as army control groups to alleviate crippling wrist pain.
worldpeace30
Profile Joined July 2012
United States106 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-26 09:45:37
September 26 2012 08:01 GMT
#42
edit: deleted.picture was unclear.
xrapture
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States1644 Posts
September 26 2012 08:13 GMT
#43
On September 26 2012 17:01 worldpeace30 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 26 2012 14:58 xrapture wrote:
How the hell can you press 1 with your middle finger and a with your ring finger? hurts my hand even thinking about it


dude, how the hell can you press 1 with your middle finger and a with your ring finger? How about having a big hand... 1 + a most likely is not even a challenge for Flash when he's pressing 1 and z

http://i.imgur.com/X1fkv.jpg
(04 seconds into video)

No possible way I could ever do that, but I do have smaller hands.


I'm 6'3. I'm sure my hands are bigger than a 5 foot 7 korean's. It just seems really really awkward and like it would cause wrist problems, but i guess he's used to it obviously.
Everyone is either delusional, a nihlilst, or dead from suicide.
kinsky
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany368 Posts
September 26 2012 09:09 GMT
#44
On September 26 2012 06:20 nebula. wrote:


LOL! WTF?!
covetousrat
Profile Joined October 2010
2109 Posts
September 26 2012 09:48 GMT
#45
Flash hand inst so big to be honest. and i personally feels that his play is still quite slow compared to ppl like losira
Zealously
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
East Gorteau22261 Posts
September 26 2012 09:55 GMT
#46
On September 26 2012 18:48 covetousrat wrote:
Flash hand inst so big to be honest. and i personally feels that his play is still quite slow compared to ppl like losira


Of course; Flash was never about insane speeds, but more about understanding and solid decision-making. That isn't to say he's not fast, because he sure as heck is.
AdministratorBreak the chains
PVJ
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
Hungary5221 Posts
September 26 2012 10:14 GMT
#47
Does anyone know why he ended up switching up the mouse keys? I tried it in a custom, with in mind that I'd be totally confused of course, but still doesn't seem to make a difference (finger wise). Love to see these kind of things, btw.
The heart's eternal vow
bgalang92
Profile Joined February 2011
United States155 Posts
September 26 2012 10:42 GMT
#48
While Flash may be amazing at keyboard dexterity... There are custom hotkeys for a reason. Anything that Flash is doing that overcomes the clumsiness of the keyboard has already been solved by hotkey layouts made by Jakatak and Foxymayhem, in the Darkgrid, Core, and Chameleon. The Core gives access to all 10 control groups while keeping a finger on the "A" key, army, and production hotkeys. I can mechanically do anything Flash can do with these custom layouts but with greater comfort(obviously not as fast nor as well, but the potential is there with practice).
Mahtasooma
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany475 Posts
September 26 2012 11:03 GMT
#49
On September 25 2012 23:56 worldpeace30 wrote:
I was kind of curious if his hand size gives him a slight edge over smaller handed people like myself?



I'd say Flash definitely has an edge over you one way or another :-D

But I'd say hitting 1 and 5 with pointy and middle finger is rather irrelevant. Where'd your other fingers go anyway? If your middle is on 1, what would your ringfinger possibly be for?
http://twitch.tv/mahtasooma
worldpeace30
Profile Joined July 2012
United States106 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-26 11:25:32
September 26 2012 11:23 GMT
#50
On September 26 2012 20:03 Mahtasooma wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 25 2012 23:56 worldpeace30 wrote:
I was kind of curious if his hand size gives him a slight edge over smaller handed people like myself?



I'd say Flash definitely has an edge over you one way or another :-D

But I'd say hitting 1 and 5 with pointy and middle finger is rather irrelevant. Where'd your other fingers go anyway? If your middle is on 1, what would your ringfinger possibly be for?



I'm not sure if you use Standard but every hotkey setup has its strengths and slight weakness. Standard is really easy to macro immaculately by tapping but then you usually have to move your finger down to buld SCV. If on the other hand you never have to move your hand down from the control groups but have a finger resting at all times on the build SCV location, and you're good, imagine how good your macro can be... And Flash's is known for his macro. I just saw him play vs Last on starleague and his scv production while even in battle was perfect... perfect one after the other without queing even while in battle. It's harder to build scvs 24/7 when an extra finger is required to use control groups.
Aando
Profile Joined August 2011
1304 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-26 12:08:31
September 26 2012 12:08 GMT
#51
Huh. I expected his hotkeys to be more efficient. One would think that the kespa teams would put some thought into hotkey set-ups since they would gain quite alot from it. Both in speed/accuracy and players less prone to injury.
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
September 26 2012 13:28 GMT
#52
On September 26 2012 15:46 JackReacher wrote:
Losira (Flash either) doesnt have that big of hands... on my DT35 with my palm below the space bar I can reach my fingers over the top of the keyboard and pick it up one-handed, and I'm just a white guy with guitarist/pianist fingers. Imagine Shaq or something. I think being cspable of a 3-9 stretch on electric guitar is more than enough hand size for SC, but I dont think handsize/finger length matter. Hamds move, you know . . .

Anyone having issues with reach, do daily finger stretches and build the muscles. You should be able to fold every finger backward to touch the back of your hand, and you should be able to hold your pinky out at 90 degrees with no assistance from the other hand and without moving any other fingers. Finger exercises can do wonders.



Okay....that's a little silly. I've been playing piano for several years, there's NO WAY finger stretching alone allows you to do those things.

I agree with hand size not mattering for SC2. I think a good example to think of is all of the incredibly talented asian piano players in the world that have tiny hands but can still play incredibly hard things with huge stretches...they just move their hands faster. Same thing for SC2. It's certainly an advantage to be able to easily use 1-8 hotkeys with ease, but if your handspan naturally only reaches 1-5, that's no problem, you can always practice shifting, moving hotkeys around, etc.
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
rikter
Profile Joined November 2010
United States352 Posts
September 26 2012 15:24 GMT
#53
I dont understand the fixation with using all 10 control groups, at least as terran. I use a grid based setup (based on frequency of use not actual position in command card) and have found that it is worth it to only use 6 of my groups (4=CCs, R,5,T=production G,H,B=unit groups) because there are only so many keys on the left side that are easy to press. Ive gotten good at using the tab function (rebound to caps lock since my hand rests on A W E F) to cycle through selections, so sometimes I dump all production on R. This is consistent with what I see from Terran pros (MKP for one), whose hands are locked in place on the left side. In games Ive seen of MKP he literally has no lateral wrist movement, it is anchored in place and I dont think he hits a key past G or H. He also uses a 3 CG setup for his army, though he splits up his production buildings. With my hand not moving laterally, while also not needing to do any serious hand deformation like in the picture above, I am able to play as fast as I possibly can for long stretches without hurting myself, and I think Terran in particular benefits from a setup like this.

Hand size doesnt matter, you can be good with big or little. What it does affect though is which keys are easiest for you to hit. I have bigger hands so "outside" movements are natural for me, whereas inside movements are not as smooth.
No one wants a box of shit, even if it is for Christmas.
illidan333
Profile Joined August 2010
Iran102 Posts
September 26 2012 16:40 GMT
#54
On September 27 2012 00:24 rikter wrote:
I dont understand the fixation with using all 10 control groups


my control group

1: main army
2: tank or ghost
3: viking
4: CC, OC, PF
5: rax
6: factory
7: starport
8: ghost academy (my nuke, and upgrade)
9: armory upgrade
0: Ebay upgrade

f1: main base
f2: naturel
f3: third
f4: my ramp in my main base
GodOfWarAReS
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Germany105 Posts
September 26 2012 16:45 GMT
#55
its personal preference. some have the timings when to make upgrades in their head some need control groups. there are some crtl groups u really need but its not all 10 =P if you have bad memory u need all 10
flash uses i think 7.
rikter
Profile Joined November 2010
United States352 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-26 16:47:37
September 26 2012 16:45 GMT
#56
Instead of splitting ghost academy, armory and ebay onto 3 separate groups, why not just use a camera hotkey to navigate? In most games you will spend, literally, 10-15 actions on these buildings. Out of possibly thousands of actions. They just don't get used enough to merit using a decent control group on them.

Edit: I do anywhere from 5-7, with 3 groups for army, 1 group for CCs and then either production stacked or split to take it to 5 or 7 respectively.

No one wants a box of shit, even if it is for Christmas.
illidan333
Profile Joined August 2010
Iran102 Posts
September 26 2012 16:56 GMT
#57
On September 27 2012 01:45 rikter wrote:
Instead of splitting ghost academy, armory and ebay onto 3 separate groups, why not just use a camera hotkey to navigate?


Because I only have 4 camera hotkey and I use all of them for my bases
SickeL
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
110 Posts
September 26 2012 18:01 GMT
#58
I think that it has to do with something that a lot of BW pros do; they play with their hands tilted to the left so they're able to get a more comfortable coverage of the keyboard, so his fingers are better suited at reaching his control groups than they otherwise would, he's also able to keep his ring finger on A this way.
A wise man once said "Oppa Gangnam style."
JackReacher
Profile Joined September 2012
United States197 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-27 03:16:05
September 27 2012 03:13 GMT
#59
On September 26 2012 22:28 SC2John wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 26 2012 15:46 JackReacher wrote:
Losira (Flash either) doesnt have that big of hands... on my DT35 with my palm below the space bar I can reach my fingers over the top of the keyboard and pick it up one-handed, and I'm just a white guy with guitarist/pianist fingers. Imagine Shaq or something. I think being cspable of a 3-9 stretch on electric guitar is more than enough hand size for SC, but I dont think handsize/finger length matter. Hamds move, you know . . .

Anyone having issues with reach, do daily finger stretches and build the muscles. You should be able to fold every finger backward to touch the back of your hand, and you should be able to hold your pinky out at 90 degrees with no assistance from the other hand and without moving any other fingers. Finger exercises can do wonders.



Okay....that's a little silly. I've been playing piano for several years, there's NO WAY finger stretching alone allows you to do those things.

I agree with hand size not mattering for SC2. I think a good example to think of is all of the incredibly talented asian piano players in the world that have tiny hands but can still play incredibly hard things with huge stretches...they just move their hands faster. Same thing for SC2. It's certainly an advantage to be able to easily use 1-8 hotkeys with ease, but if your handspan naturally only reaches 1-5, that's no problem, you can always practice shifting, moving hotkeys around, etc.

Well, I've had carpal tunnel release surgery on both wrists from gaming/guitar, and had some flexor tendons torn in my left hand racing motocross, which had to be surgically repaired. With physical therapy and some extra movement provided by new tissue (as well as being really flexible to begin with), I can practically tie the fingers in my left hand in knots by themselves. I wouldn't recommend anyone to go to such measures for increased reach/flexibility, but I still believe in liberal, daily stretching of any muscles or tendons you use on a daily basis to increase strength and flexibility. I may not be a korean pro, but being able to keep my ring finger anchored on the "a" key and stretch across the top to press 0a9a4e with 2 fingers, always keeping ring finger anchored on "A" to react at a moment's notice, is a benefit to anyone playing the game nonetheless. I have a feeling SOME of Flash's dexterity comes from flexibility training, and if it didn't, i'd be wildly surprised.

Everyone considering pro-gaming should talk to a doctor about preemptive carpal tunnel release surgery; I've had it in both wrists, so I can play 12 hours a day with the world's worst posture and ergonomics on purpose, and never have any wrist troubles because the area liable for inflammation has been snipped/loosened. Just a health consideration, but always ask your doctor first. Also applicable to anyone considering a career in racing motocross; this same surgery ELIMINATES arm-pump.

These are as close to performance-enhancing surgeries as it gets in esports, but unfortunately, it generally is only talked about after it's too late and the damage is done.

Edit: In the video, Flash is using the same keyboard I use, so I have a pretty good idea of the comparison. He's not a whiz on the keyboard; he's a genius at starcraft.
Creegz
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Canada354 Posts
September 27 2012 04:19 GMT
#60
I agree with everyone saying it could be a carpal tunnel giver. I personally do something that I feel is quite uncomfortable sometimes, but is also a necessity for me. Control and then binding M3 or M4 (Razer Black Widow) to hatch/queen. and M1 to Evo chambers. So to hit M1 i usually use my ring finger, which hovers around A and I move from there. Pinky hits hatch (M3) and Queen (M4) when necessary, middle mouse to do the backspace for injects. The setup I have is good when you have it ready, but to get the Queens and Hatches keyed up, I do an awkward movement of holding CTRL with my pinky, curling it and straightening my hand to hit M3 and M4, When I go to key up M1, I extend my middle finger since it is just long enough to reach, but in the process I roll my wrist to the side and pivot my wrist to perform the keypress.

Made a quick album to show everyone what I mean. http://imgur.com/a/CA9AK
Who is this guy? ^
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