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preface: i'm a diamond zerg in NA
the standard for ZvP lately has been FFE vs quick 3 hatch, then P either goes for a 2 base timing or a third.
zerg staying on 2 base has still been on option, but its seen as more of a gimmicky build than a standard one. i've been experimenting with 2 base play, and although its far from refined, i would like more opinions on it.
in a different thread, someone had the concept of ETA: economy tech army. (basically, its knowing which of the three you have more of at the moment, and exploiting your advantages). so applying this idea to ZvP
-three hatch:
pros: economy, cons: army, tech
-two hatch
pros: tech, army, cons: economy.
HOWEVER: when you go two hatch, you get 300 extra minerals, which means 6 extra drones earlier.
this allows you to get an earlier gas than usual while maintaining a similar economy, and thus, earlier tech.
so now, you can have 1-1 and roach-speed and infestors sooner than with 3 hatch.
better tech means your units are more cost efficient, and thus your army is stronger. now you can take a third safely, hold most all-ins, and/or pressure the protoss third while saturating yours safely.
the last problem with 2 base v 3 base is larva. you obviously have less larva when going 2 hatch.
this hasn't been an issue for me yet. since you're spending a lot on early upgrades, its hard to use all your larva. also, since i tend to go for more roaches than lings, roaches are more larva-efficient than lings (75-25 v 50-0 per larva). as long as you don't take a third (or a macro hatch) too late, and you hit your injects, you can keep your money low fine.
heres the basic build order outline for what i've been talking about
pool
hatch
extractor
2 queens
@100 gas ling speed
@100 gas lair
@lair 25/80sec roach warren
3x extractor
2x evo chambers
@100%lair roach speed
@250 gas +1/+1
@full saturation: roaches + third
+2/+2
infestation pit
*edit: my timings right now are kind of bad. the +1/+1 probably should come before lair
now prove to me why this idea sucks.
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You can't attack a 2 base protoss so that your extra army/tech can't do anything in the beginning. When protoss moves out or takes his third (9-10 minutes) you'd have more army if you went for 3 base.
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On September 01 2012 19:46 VoirDire wrote:
You can't attack a 2 base protoss so that your extra army/tech can't do anything in the beginning. When protoss moves out or takes his third (9-10 minutes) you'd have more army if you went for 3 base.
staying on 2 bases vs FFE toss is do-able, I remember when revival (or one of the TSL zerg) streamed, he always stay on 2 hatches for ling infestors crushing that 2 base all in with spine support and then going for a huge counter or double expand
(or a ling infestor timing attack)
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Hi, I'll try to give some pointers.
Your build hurts the economy too much. If you take gases too early and do not take a third, you will not be on par with your protoss counterpart economically. Without much economy, you cannot tech and build your army at the same time (even if you do, you won't get your critical mass to fend off protoss' waves).
I see that you get your roach warren at such an early timing. You do have to know the reason why we get it: gateway attacks come in from 7:30 to 9mins. A 7:30 min timing would usually mean a fast +1 attack and thus, pure lings die too quickly and it will be difficult to hold with just pure lings. This is why we get a roach warren at around 7 minutes. Note, it is still possible to fend off this attack with pure lings, but roaches make it so much easier. If the attack comes at 9 mins and it is a 2 base, then you have to have an insane flanking ability and spine crawlers to fend this off. But a success tip to fend off all this kind of attacks is to have a good economy, something a 2 base zerg will not provide.
Hence, if you get a roach warren and gas too early, you are crippling yourself and will lose out to the protoss if he does the standard timings. On the other hand, if the protoss attacks you early (say a 4gate all in), then your build will suffice. But if we look at a third scenario where the protoss takes a third and expands, then no doubt you will be severely behind.
So to summarise, you will do well against ridiculous early protoss timings, but not against standard or late game play. You may be ahead in upgrades, but you do not have the economy to have a large army. You may get infestors out early, but you do not have the critical mass to kill them (fungal growth to death is nonsense) You will have a hard time winning protoss if they know what they are doing.
True enough, there are many variations to ZvP, you do not always have to follow the popular Stephano 12 min max out build. But most of the builds have one thing in common: get 3 bases fast or end the game early.
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It's safer to open 3 hatch gasless by far.
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The problem with this idea is that its already been done by much better players a while back. Since then, Protoss have gotten a lot better with things like sim citying certain maps so they can take a fast third with sentries for ff defense. If you try to go for some 2 base thing like this, you're already going to be making some sort of units when you realize he's taking a third and not pushing.
After seeing him take a third with sufficient sentries, you're pretty much dead already. He hasn't even had to do a thing, you simply just gave him a BO win. Especially on maps like Cloud Kingdom and Entombed, you won't be able to touch P's third or punish him in any way, while you're about 30-40 drones behind someone who opened 3 hatch.
Also keep in mind that back then, Protoss didn't have the build orders available for the immortal/sentry pushes. These days its becoming just as common to actually immo/sentry expand off 5 gates or so instead of making a serious push. I can't stress enough how bad of an idea it is to try to bust someone that knows how to properly do this. The immortals will destroy your roaches and the ffs will completely prevent your lings from doing anything. Even if you have infestors, he'll have cannon/sim-city/ with all that and can keep you from doing any sort of damage before he has more gates and can just go kill you.
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On September 01 2012 19:58 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 19:46 VoirDire wrote:
You can't attack a 2 base protoss so that your extra army/tech can't do anything in the beginning. When protoss moves out or takes his third (9-10 minutes) you'd have more army if you went for 3 base. staying on 2 bases vs FFE toss is do-able, I remember when revival (or one of the TSL zerg) streamed, he always stay on 2 hatches for ling infestors crushing that 2 base all in with spine support and then going for a huge counter or double expand (or a ling infestor timing attack)
It was doable to fend of 2 base all ins before the 1.4 infestor nerf. But now most protosses go for 3 base and you'll end up behind in most games. Not even destiny goes for 2 base infestors anymore.
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Italy12246 Posts
On September 01 2012 19:58 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 19:46 VoirDire wrote:
You can't attack a 2 base protoss so that your extra army/tech can't do anything in the beginning. When protoss moves out or takes his third (9-10 minutes) you'd have more army if you went for 3 base. staying on 2 bases vs FFE toss is do-able, I remember when revival (or one of the TSL zerg) streamed, he always stay on 2 hatches for ling infestors crushing that 2 base all in with spine support and then going for a huge counter or double expand (or a ling infestor timing attack)
2base Ling Infestor or 2base muta is a whole different animal from a 2base Roach build like the OP suggests though.
I agree that 2base tech can be kind of viable (especially because it's hard to know wether it's bust vs tech), but if you stay low tech and go roach instead you really need the third or the Protoss' army will eventually overrun you through sheer cost efficiency.
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if you go 2 base you need to do damage in order to win. since wall off is pretty easy, you need to play some wall breaking tech like muta/infestor/nydus/(baneling). unfortunately round the time your tech is avaiable, protoss is about to push out with his army. if the protoss goes fast third you have a slightly better chance if you hit the timing window. in general 3 base play will yield a higher winrate.
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On September 01 2012 20:41 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 19:58 ETisME wrote:On September 01 2012 19:46 VoirDire wrote:
You can't attack a 2 base protoss so that your extra army/tech can't do anything in the beginning. When protoss moves out or takes his third (9-10 minutes) you'd have more army if you went for 3 base. staying on 2 bases vs FFE toss is do-able, I remember when revival (or one of the TSL zerg) streamed, he always stay on 2 hatches for ling infestors crushing that 2 base all in with spine support and then going for a huge counter or double expand (or a ling infestor timing attack) 2base Ling Infestor or 2base muta is a whole different animal from a 2base Roach build like the OP suggests though. I agree that 2base tech can be kind of viable (especially because it's hard to know wether it's bust vs tech), but if you stay low tech and go roach instead you really need the third or the Protoss' army will eventually overrun you through sheer cost efficiency.
What he said.
You can do 2 base tech --> expand
and get small advantages here or there, as long as you dont throw away your special units and get your third running before protoss.
Also, If the toss goes for a very fast third anyway, I would suggest you fully saturating your third and getting a 4th up before maxing.
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If you 2 hatch, you have to go infestor ling. End of story. Any build with muta or roach will get completely rolled by a very simple 2 base timing push from protoss (blink or immortal sentry), every time.
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I think 2 hatch is ok just go speed little into it then expand around 5 to 6 min. Speed lets you be safe and defend pushes. If you stay on 2 base longer than that you either need to be going spines with muta or double expand and pray he doesn't attack you.
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guys don't quote me and i haven't done the math on this but if you stay on 2 bases it makes it hard for you to trade armies doesn't it? Therfore putting you in a all in situation if the toss nicely holds off your push
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On September 02 2012 00:44 Drowsy wrote:
If you 2 hatch, you have to go infestor ling. End of story. Any build with muta or roach will get completely rolled by a very simple 2 base timing push from protoss (blink or immortal sentry), every time.
Im sorry but,
This is just flat out not true.
2 base muta expand
2 base fester expand
2 base hydra expand
2 base 1/1 ling with drop/bane expand
2 base roach with burrow movent expand
all of these can be viable if one's macro/ build orders are good.
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On September 02 2012 01:05 Xonix wrote:
guys don't quote me and i haven't done the math on this but if you stay on 2 bases it makes it hard for you to trade armies doesn't it? Therfore putting you in a all in situation if the toss nicely holds off your push
its not about staying on two bases. its about staying on two bases longer so you can have higher tech. then expanding.
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A Protoss that scouts no 3rd will most likely not go through with their planned 2 base all in. So I think you can cross that off the list
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On September 02 2012 01:06 BuiBui wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 01:05 Xonix wrote:
guys don't quote me and i haven't done the math on this but if you stay on 2 bases it makes it hard for you to trade armies doesn't it? Therfore putting you in a all in situation if the toss nicely holds off your push its not about staying on two bases. its about staying on two bases longer so you can have higher tech. then expanding.
But i find this fast tech extremly risky... It's gotten to the point where toss does faster and faster all ins specificly hitting before you get your third is fully saturated anyway. Sacrificing units for tech?
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Italy12246 Posts
On September 02 2012 01:05 BuiBui wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 00:44 Drowsy wrote:
If you 2 hatch, you have to go infestor ling. End of story. Any build with muta or roach will get completely rolled by a very simple 2 base timing push from protoss (blink or immortal sentry), every time. Im sorry but, This is just flat out not true. 2 base muta expand 2 base fester expand 2 base hydra expand 2 base 1/1 ling with drop/bane expand 2 base roach with burrow movent expand all of these can be viable if one's macro/ build orders are good.
All those except 2 base muta and maybe 2base infestor are allins you can't expand off them. But then again anything goes in gold league right?
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On September 02 2012 01:17 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 01:05 BuiBui wrote:On September 02 2012 00:44 Drowsy wrote:
If you 2 hatch, you have to go infestor ling. End of story. Any build with muta or roach will get completely rolled by a very simple 2 base timing push from protoss (blink or immortal sentry), every time. Im sorry but, This is just flat out not true. 2 base muta expand 2 base fester expand 2 base hydra expand 2 base 1/1 ling with drop/bane expand 2 base roach with burrow movent expand all of these can be viable if one's macro/ build orders are good. All those except 2 base muta and maybe 2base infestor are allins you can't expand off them. But then again anything goes in gold league right?
Two base muta is viable but you have to do a shit ton of damage and constanly be harrasing or else the toss will just come in and kill you. Whenever a zerg is going infestors it means that your trying to play passive basicly so I don't think the infestor all in would work
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On September 02 2012 01:17 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 01:05 BuiBui wrote:On September 02 2012 00:44 Drowsy wrote:
If you 2 hatch, you have to go infestor ling. End of story. Any build with muta or roach will get completely rolled by a very simple 2 base timing push from protoss (blink or immortal sentry), every time. Im sorry but, This is just flat out not true. 2 base muta expand 2 base fester expand 2 base hydra expand 2 base 1/1 ling with drop/bane expand 2 base roach with burrow movent expand all of these can be viable if one's macro/ build orders are good. All those except 2 base muta and maybe 2base infestor are allins you can't expand off them. But then again anything goes in gold league right?
1350+ master zerg. 1200 on my smurf
You are coming off quite insulting.
All of these builds are tech expands, and you done expand behind your slight tech poke. All of these builds can work vs top 8 and low GM toss's in my ladder experience this season. Its all about mind games, and building upon small advantages. Perhaps you should try out stuff before you knock it.
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On September 02 2012 01:27 BuiBui wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 01:17 Teoita wrote:On September 02 2012 01:05 BuiBui wrote:On September 02 2012 00:44 Drowsy wrote:
If you 2 hatch, you have to go infestor ling. End of story. Any build with muta or roach will get completely rolled by a very simple 2 base timing push from protoss (blink or immortal sentry), every time. Im sorry but, This is just flat out not true. 2 base muta expand 2 base fester expand 2 base hydra expand 2 base 1/1 ling with drop/bane expand 2 base roach with burrow movent expand all of these can be viable if one's macro/ build orders are good. All those except 2 base muta and maybe 2base infestor are allins you can't expand off them. But then again anything goes in gold league right? 1350+ master zerg. You are coming off quite insulting. All of these builds are tech expands, and you done expand behind your slight tech poke. All of these builds can work vs top 8 and low GM toss's in my ladder experience this season. Its all about mind games, and building upon small advantages. Perhaps you should try out stuff before you knock it.
I'm a diamond zerg and use to do two base muta vs toss but masters held it easily in my opinion... It's true that I've never tried 2 base infestor it just doesn't fit into my playstyle...
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On September 02 2012 01:23 Xonix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 01:17 Teoita wrote:On September 02 2012 01:05 BuiBui wrote:On September 02 2012 00:44 Drowsy wrote:
If you 2 hatch, you have to go infestor ling. End of story. Any build with muta or roach will get completely rolled by a very simple 2 base timing push from protoss (blink or immortal sentry), every time. Im sorry but, This is just flat out not true. 2 base muta expand 2 base fester expand 2 base hydra expand 2 base 1/1 ling with drop/bane expand 2 base roach with burrow movent expand all of these can be viable if one's macro/ build orders are good. All those except 2 base muta and maybe 2base infestor are allins you can't expand off them. But then again anything goes in gold league right? Two base muta is viable but you have to do a shit ton of damage and constanly be harrasing or else the toss will just come in and kill you. Whenever a zerg is going infestors it means that your trying to play passive basicly so I don't think the infestor all in would work
You actually dont have to do damage. The mutas do two things. Scout, and the muta' will force cannons in the protoss base, meanwhile you fly around and try to distrupt their macro.
Meanwhile back at your home base, I have cut mutas around 8-10. you have droned your third during your poke, and switched tech to roaches wiht + 1 1 nearly done, or nearly done. if they attack you with the 11:30+ immortal sentry all in for example. you spine up and make roaches. bring your mutas back. and win.
EDIT: Keep in mind that decision making, cutting drones, or droning at thre wrong time for example, even with 1 extra round of droning can make you lose the game.
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On September 02 2012 01:05 BuiBui wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 00:44 Drowsy wrote:
If you 2 hatch, you have to go infestor ling. End of story. Any build with muta or roach will get completely rolled by a very simple 2 base timing push from protoss (blink or immortal sentry), every time. Im sorry but, This is just flat out not true. 2 base muta expand 2 base fester expand 2 base hydra expand 2 base 1/1 ling with drop/bane expand 2 base roach with burrow movent expand all of these can be viable if one's macro/ build orders are good.
Okay, 1/1 ling/bane and 2 base hydra will definitely work, but those builds obviously have their own problems and weaknesses. "Fester expand" is exactly what I refer to when I saw 2 hatch infestor ling. Roach with movement+burrow will get demolished.
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United States4883 Posts
I've seen a few builds that revolve around really fast 2-base infestors that transitions well into 3-base. In these strategies, zerg will go 1gas into lair first, then zergling speed. This generally forces the protoss into a defensive position against a potential baneling/roach bust or a fast nydus. From here you can take a 3rd or make a macro hatch and do a zergling/infestor timing. This gets your infestors up really early to start accumulating energy, making holding off any 2-base all-ins much easier. If the protoss opts for a faster 3rd, you are already ahead in tech and can go for an incredibly fast hive.
All in all, I think this is a cool strategy. I think mutas are much stronger on 3 bases though, as are roach builds. However, you don't need a lot of larva or minerals to get out really fast infestors, and the infestors allow you a lot of flexibility to control the game flow.
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2 base muta into 3rd can work, but is hard to play and you easily lose to a push. i played it for a pretty long time (like them mutas  ) but i think if the protoss scouts and reacts properly, you most of the time lose (trying a base trade as last resort). If you do a hatch block of his natural it gets more viable as this basically shifts tech timings relative to mineral income, so at the time of muta tech he won't have that big army to push you.
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I don't see why you would go 2 base over 3 base. With 3 base, you get a good lead by sitting on your ass and can get a surprisingly decent timing on lair tech. With 2 base, in order to get that same lead, you need to actually do damage, which is automatically worse unless you have decent odds to either do that damage or a chance for extreme damage. Also, two base turtle and two base allins are monsters to bust and hold, respectively.
I think that 2 base versus 3 base is like 1 gate FE versus FFE for protoss. 1 gate FE does have a few advantages, but by and large FFE is just better.
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EPT
