EPT[!] Pro Terran Strategy Q/A - Page 17
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 13 2012 18:47 plogamer wrote: What do you think of an attack-upgrade only strategy against Zerg? (playing as Terran) Zerg units that do low damage per attack tend to have very low HP. Roaches and broods seem to do bigger damage per hit.To forgo armor upgrade would spare gas for more tech units, ala banshee, raven, etc. Is there something I am missing? You mean with mech? Skipping armor upgrades makes your units extremely vulnerable to Zerglings, Broodlings and Infested Terrans. Skipping +3 armor upgrade is frequent vs BLs, though, as you may not have 500 gas at the time you start both upgrades / you desperately need gas to counter BLs. On November 14 2012 01:18 Chaggi wrote: I've been watching Ganzi's stream lately and he does this cool 930~10 minute push with like 8 hellions + a lots of marines w/ combat shields, skips the tech lab starport and I was just curious like why doesn't the zerg just make banelings? I haven't seen one (only seen 2-3 games) actually just make banelings to kill it Greed and/or lack of scouting information. Most Zergs don't even bother to sacrifice an Overlord these days. | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
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Ver
United States2186 Posts
On November 13 2012 18:27 Keilkan wrote: + Show Spoiler + 2) As Kawaii said, are you dispersing your banes and getting flanks in? A lot of zergs don't bother to set up attacks at all, i,e spreading their army in a giant arc so it crashes down in a large envelopment rather than a big line with clumped banes. If you want an example of a simple yet strong flank, look at Miya vs Taeja on Atlantis Spaceship from Slayers/Liquid in IPLTAC3. Also make sure you micro banes so they don't all detonate on spread tanks/thors. If you are using mutas you should queue them up to kill all his tanks (monster vs taeja, ipltl, entombed). I could probably do a lot better of flanking. The game in question however, my opponent opened two-rax and got murdered. Then I got a third immediately. Yet he decided to push out completely blind with a relatively low amount of marines, and got to deny my third and the creepspread I had going, so the beginning of the midgame was a lot more even than it should have been - I also didn't have much creep going, due to the early aggression. As the game was on Ohana, I also feel like the room I have to backstab or flank is extremely limited. Basically his push was sitting around the lower ramp towards my fourth, with a single marine holding the watchtower. Once he got onto that ramp I knew engaging would be almost impossible with just ling/bling/infestor. Yet I am not sure where I could have really engaged the army much before he got there. He more or less slowpushed to the watchtower, then just went to the ramp at my fourth and slowpushed again. + Show Spoiler + 3) If you have infestors, are you burrowing one underneath his army to follow it around and then lead any attack with infested terrans? That blind marine moveout is a coinflip, as is your ultra fast third before gas (im assuming). I think normally if you want to be safe you just get speed then take a 3rd against a 2 rax. If, however, you totally own his 2 rax and kill his initial marines, then he simply cannot push out with marines (assuming he triple cc's like he should) because you have the watchtower and just make lings if he pushes past; if you kill his whole army you just baneling bust and auto win. If you want some inspiration for backstabs on Ohana, look at Suppy vs Polt here: http://www.twitch.tv/cstarleague/b/332222658 Pushes on Ohana can be fast and scary but the third is ridiculously exposed. If he is slow pushing, and you are moving your army around and delaying w/fungals to make sure its slow, backstabbing when you can, he isn't going to make it in time before broods (or ultras, if you want to go the easy route) come. To give you an idea, in a standard 3 base hellion/banshee game vs suppy he'll have 6-8 broods at 1545 if I can't force him to make banelings. From what you've said I'm almost certain your hive army is too late. Slow push nowadays and they get broods, so you auto lose. My games nowadays all involve frantic rushing across creep because you just can't let that happen. Changelings are great! Use them every game if you can  On November 13 2012 18:47 plogamer wrote: What do you think of an attack-upgrade only strategy against Zerg? (playing as Terran) Zerg units that do low damage per attack tend to have very low HP. Roaches and broods seem to do bigger damage per hit.To forgo armor upgrade would spare gas for more tech units, ala banshee, raven, etc. Is there something I am missing? Nope, lings matter a ton and armor isn't that expensive. Plus its very key vs mutas too. You want lings to be not very effective so zerg has to spend gas to kill your army so he can't get hive that fast. If he can hold your attacks with pure ling/infestor you just lost. On November 13 2012 19:30 Thezzy wrote: Keep in mind that Zerglings attack quickly, each armor upgrade will reduce each of those attacks by one. The lower the damage of the attack, the better it is to get armor because you'll reduce the attack damage even further. Against a tank shot of 35 damage, having 3 armor does very little (less than 10% reduction). However, against an attack of 6 damage, having 3 armor cuts the damage output in half. This is why 6 armor ultras require Marauders because it reduces +3 marine damage from 9 to 3 and why +3 armor Battlecruisers take very little damage from Interceptors. As for my own question, I'm still looking for a stable yet relatively simple TvZ build. As I'm currently in Platinum, I don't feel like I have the APM/Micro to make Hellion/Banshee work as well as it should. I did see a build where you go for a Marine/Hellion with one Medivac attack followed by going Marine/Tank. It seems simple enough, capable of doing early damage and setting up for a strong midgame, but I've been reading here that Marine/Tank has become very difficult due to creep spread and mass speed/bane/muta. Can you think of a build that would be somewhat more forgiving of mistakes/easier to learn with? This is an awkward question because I can give you builds that will be easy and work at that level, but will be useless once you reach higher level players. The only other viable alternative to hellion/banshee is 11/11 -> 3 scv pull -> make 2 cc which is somewhat cheesy but still not a bad build at all to learn. Then if you don't want to make hellion/banshee you make however many rax to wall, stim, fact, and ebays. If you want something that is a bit outdated but will work at your level, we'll do Taeja's old build of triple cc marine/medivac with late tanks. Taeja vs Annyeung in Liquid vs Prime in TAC WR3 is a good example of the build. rax cc cc 3 rax 2 gas stim 2 rax fact 2 ebay 2 gas. You get a huge amount of marines midgame to control the map, deny creep, and slow his 4th, then add in tanks later. I still think marine/tank is better than mech, or at least has more margin for error than mech (slim, but better than none). It's more of there is no reliable opening every game other than some variant of 3 cc hellion/banshee or 11/11. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 14 2012 01:42 Chaggi wrote: That's what I figured, I've seen more and more Terrans move away from the Banshee, and opt for 2 more rax and getting the Starport a bit later. Is that a change in the metagame lately? (TvZ) More like the remnants of the old strategy trend in which 2-base pressure could achieve something. Though 2-base timings can still be somewhat decent against 2-base Lair, you will systematically end up at a disadvantage against fast third 6 Queens players who bother to sacrifice an Overlord because they should be able to block whichever attack you use while retaining their third. Even if the attack was successful you will likely hurt yourself more than the Zerg with your 9' third because you don't have the luxury to insta saturate it the way Zergs can. I had numerous games in which I used the Hellion/Marine/Marauder timing that both Mvp and SuperNova played at IEM Cologne (a strong attack which hits with many Hellions and bio, stronger than Medivacs timings regarding the “brute force” of your army) and still ended up losing despite wiping out their entire third, Drones included; after he fends off your attack, Zerg simply soft contains you until you have 2 Tanks while taking back his third, producing 15 Drones at once and putting new Tumors at the edge of the creep if you killed Tumors, and voilà, you don't have any particular advantage even if your timing was a success. | ||
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karlkarl
Germany33 Posts
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
On November 14 2012 03:36 Ver wrote: This is an awkward question because I can give you builds that will be easy and work at that level, but will be useless once you reach higher level players. The only other viable alternative to hellion/banshee is 11/11 -> 3 scv pull -> make 2 cc which is somewhat cheesy but still not a bad build at all to learn. Then if you don't want to make hellion/banshee you make however many rax to wall, stim, fact, and ebays. If you want something that is a bit outdated but will work at your level, we'll do Taeja's old build of triple cc marine/medivac with late tanks. Taeja vs Annyeung in Liquid vs Prime in TAC WR3 is a good example of the build. rax cc cc 3 rax 2 gas stim 2 rax fact 2 ebay 2 gas. You get a huge amount of marines midgame to control the map, deny creep, and slow his 4th, then add in tanks later. I still think marine/tank is better than mech, or at least has more margin for error than mech (slim, but better than none). It's more of there is no reliable opening every game other than some variant of 3 cc hellion/banshee or 11/11. Hmmm, I've always preferred to be aggressive (non-cheese) against Zerg early on but from everything I've read, only 11/11 can do any real damage and it feels too cheesy to me (cutting SCVs  ), anything else either doesn't do any real damage (Reactor Hellion exp) or the CC comes out too late (Cloakshee CC). 2 base timings don't seem to be very effective either so I'll try Teaja's build.Since I'm going 1rax into 3CC, I'm assuming I'll need a few bunkers to stay alive unless I scout an early third Hatchery? | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On November 14 2012 04:16 karlkarl wrote: Hey ver, low masters terran here.i have some questions regarding tvt facing mech. I lose like 95% of my games where my opponent goes mech. 1. what army composition should I use: standard Marine tank with some marauders mixed, pure bio, Bio with fast battlecruiser or a Ton of vikings for aircontrol or whatever, i dont really know. 2. whats your general gameplan Vs mech, i feel like if i dont Do damage with my medivac timimg( if for example his blueflame/ siegemode isnt finished) i just dont know what to Do when there are some turrets up. then he just rolls out and kills me after a few minutes. of course i heard about that you should use your mobility and such, but if he just turtles with a lot of turrets i cant do a lot. would be cool if you can.help me! Not Ver but what's worked for me (and I've seen this on KawaiiRice's stream) is basically putting a group of marauders/marines spread around the map, and basically if I can keep map control, I can spot when they move out, and either try and flank, or attack their base and force them to move back and defend a base. Mech is so so bad (unless you're super behind) when flanked and it's really surprising what a smaller group of bio units (split and controlled well) + flanks can do against it. | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1153 Posts
I have question about a specific build vZ. Ryung and Innovation have been doing the old CC first --> stim/hellion/medivac timing to pressure zerg before baneling speed/infestor tech. Artosis also mentioned something about the effectiveness of marauders, a unit which is occasionally made for this push. There are a few different versions of CC --> raxx raxx --> gas gas 1. Innovation's version: stay on 2 raxx (1 techlab, 1 reactor), 3rd CC before starport, push with about 6 hellions, 14-16 marines, 2 medivacs. Double engineering bay behind the attack 2. Ryung's version: go up to 3 raxx (1 techlab, 2 reactors) engineering bay before starport, push with about 3-4 marauders, 6 hellions, marines, 2 medivacs. 3rd CC behind the attack Question is, is the marauder +1 better vs. certain Z openings? Is it better vs. a mass queen opening? And is the 3rd CC timing more important on certain maps? Also, what's your general opinion on the 2 factory blue flame trend, either as a follow up to 2raxx pressure --> 3CC (see marine/combat shield/BFH push Ryung vs. DRG, G2. Cloud Kingdom), or as part of MKP/Maru's build 3CC --> 4 raxx --> 2 fact --> double ups push at 1-1? | ||
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TRaFFiC
Canada1448 Posts
On November 14 2012 19:37 Chaggi wrote: Not Ver but what's worked for me (and I've seen this on KawaiiRice's stream) is basically putting a group of marauders/marines spread around the map, and basically if I can keep map control, I can spot when they move out, and either try and flank, or attack their base and force them to move back and defend a base. Mech is so so bad (unless you're super behind) when flanked and it's really surprising what a smaller group of bio units (split and controlled well) + flanks can do against it. Mid master terran here. This is exactly how you can get in trouble. Once they reach critical mass of mech, bio doesn't cut it. By the time you take your third you need to be on 3 fac siege tank production. You should take your third before him because you have map control. Then, just contain him on 3 base while you take the map. By the time he tries to break out you should have 10+ siege tanks. More than enough to make him regret a-moving into you. If he just sits there and camp go for doulble air ups once you got 5 bases and transition into ravens. After you got air control, battle cruisers make mech look silly, but don't try this till you're on 10 gas. | ||
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
from a standard 1rax fe into 3rax (into medivacs) build, how do you hold off a 3gate immortal timing (either 1base/all-in variant, or the one with an expo before going into this timing) I realize their collosi is thus delayed, but I can't figure out how to hold off the push when they hit before my stim/medivacs are out. Like how many bunkers do I need, obviously I need to pull scvs to repair, etc | ||
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Asmodeusx
286 Posts
On November 15 2012 07:52 zhurai wrote: Hi I have another question (I haven't faced this recently, but I do see it alot on in my league on ladder). from a standard 1rax fe into 3rax (into medivacs) build, how do you hold off a 3gate immortal timing (either 1base/all-in variant, or the one with an expo before going into this timing) I realize their collosi is thus delayed, but I can't figure out how to hold off the push when they hit before my stim/medivacs are out. Like how many bunkers do I need, obviously I need to pull scvs to repair, etc Post replays, and someone will tell you what you could have done better, otherwise you'll get what you already know - macro better, have scv's in time for repair, scout. | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1153 Posts
On November 15 2012 07:52 zhurai wrote: Hi I have another question (I haven't faced this recently, but I do see it alot on in my league on ladder). from a standard 1rax fe into 3rax (into medivacs) build, how do you hold off a 3gate immortal timing (either 1base/all-in variant, or the one with an expo before going into this timing) I realize their collosi is thus delayed, but I can't figure out how to hold off the push when they hit before my stim/medivacs are out. Like how many bunkers do I need, obviously I need to pull scvs to repair, etc 3 bunkers minimum, but I would build 4. Marines target firing sentries (you need to shut down guardian shield and reduce his sentry count so low that he can't send a 2nd wave). SCVs in front of the bunkers to repair (forces him to waste forcefields on all sides of the bunkers). At the very least, you need to be controlling your half of the map in order to buy enough time for bunkers #2-4. It's easier to spot immortal busts when you open with gas, hellions scouting round the map, early medivac, etc, and much easier to counterattack with gas openings. | ||
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Vilanoil
Germany47 Posts
i need some advice for my TvP. Basically i open each game with 1 Rax Fe into 3 rax bio play. Most times i end up in a macro game and lose in the endgame. Even if i manage to break their first army they rebuild / backup with so much zealots that they can kill my remaining army and base. Could you tell me a way how to deal with that massiv zealot armys in late game? And which players should i observe to learn how and when to harass / drop ? ( My harassment is pretty poor ) | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1153 Posts
On November 17 2012 06:26 Vilanoil wrote: Hey i need some advice for my TvP. Basically i open each game with 1 Rax Fe into 3 rax bio play. Most times i end up in a macro game and lose in the endgame. Even if i manage to break their first army they rebuild / backup with so much zealots that they can kill my remaining army and base. Could you tell me a way how to deal with that massiv zealot armys in late game? And which players should i observe to learn how and when to harass / drop ? ( My harassment is pretty poor ) A recent one is [GSTL] Gumiho vs. Creator, on CK. It's an inspiring game, a masterclass on drop-play and multi-pronged harass. I go very ghost heavy to deal with mass zealot. | ||
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bmoneyAK
81 Posts
How should I control hellions as part of a TvZ mech push out? When I do TvZ mech push out my hellions end up at the front and they get fungaled, sometimes twice before the Z army comes in. This slows down my push and the fungals blow up the hellions super quick. How can I minimize this? I was thinking about putting half of the hellions on a follow command on the rear siege tank and leading with a separate control group of a couple of hellions to bait fungals. When a dozen hellions at the front of my push get blown up by fungals it's really annoying, both because I lose the hellions but because zerglings get to engage the thors and I cry terran tears. What about leading with the thors, since they shrug off fungal damage and can't be rooted, and if anything comes within melee range the hellions will burn them? Maybe I should be tanking with the unit that has most HP. | ||
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ThaSlayer
707 Posts
Can anyone shed some light on the actual uses of the thor unit in the T v Z matchup? Apart from the initial 2-4 thors which scares away muta flocks? How do I incorporate thors effectively into mech play? I believe thors have the highest dps in the game. Thanks! | ||
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ThaSlayer
707 Posts
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saaaa
Germany419 Posts
Should i let my tanks sieged or should i unsiege and "Stutterstep" away? The same question für Ultra+Infestor. Should i wait until they throw all their eggs away and then unsiege and stutterstep? I dont know the perfect way to engage those armies and some pro let them sieged and some unsiege them. Maybe only siege if i create a small entrance where splash damage is really effective? hope u guys can help me thx | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 17 2012 06:26 Vilanoil wrote: Hey i need some advice for my TvP. Basically i open each game with 1 Rax Fe into 3 rax bio play. Most times i end up in a macro game and lose in the endgame. Even if i manage to break their first army they rebuild / backup with so much zealots that they can kill my remaining army and base. Unfortunately in TvP, when you don't have a landslide victory you often gain nothing but the right to have another fight later because the remnants of your army are too weak to overwhelm Zealots warp-ins / Templars left behind. If your army is too small/damaged to go on, do not overextend and retreat. Overextension is the worst thing you can do as you will likely lose everything in a very inefficient way. To deal with mass Zealots, you need to be Marine-heavy (Marauders are absolutely awful against Zealots) and/or to have a high Ghost count. Fighting in chokes and having a high Medivac count also helps, but having many Medivacs is not always something you can afford. On November 17 2012 09:23 bmoneyAK wrote: When doing TvZ banshee hellion into mech, when should I be suiciding hellions for drones and how many do I need to get to be effective? Assuming I can't get a ton of them for free, how many drones do I have to get for it to be worth it? I'm thinking that mid game I can afford 150 gas for one more reactor factory and I can constantly push out hellions to chew up larvae and APM for Z while I build up my gas army. Basically, once I am on three base if I am not expecting an all in I think it makes sense to be very risky and aggressive, since I am trading out minerals which I can spare. Personnally I always runby my first 4 or 6 Hellions if his Queens are out of position (not only for Drones kills, but also for information) and/or he has no wall; obviously you retreat if you see lots of Speedlings. During the game, it depends; you can mostly kill Drones when his army is out of position, otherwise they just die for nothing. It also depends on your opponent's creep spread and the map layout since you'll obviously get more kills if you surprise him. I was watching Beastyqt's stream some weeks ago, wondering why he was able to afford so many macro OCs by lategame while I was unable to do so despite playing the same build and properly saturating my 3 bases... And I found it was because I was playing with 2 Reactor Factories; I was spending so much minerals on Hellions that I was not able to afford extra CCs to boost my economy / make PFs at key points. Now I play with only 1 Reactor Factory and I am able to set defences and develop correctly. Constantly suiciding Hellions for Drones looks like a good trade but things are actually more subtle. Whenever you lose Hellions during midgame, you weaken and/or delay your pre-Hive tech push; meanwhile, your opponent just replenishes his Drone count right away and voilà, you didn't necessarily gain something valuable... Hence those infuriating games in which you can kill 100+ Drones and still lose. By lategame, yes, you can dispose of Hellions with far more munificence but now I am a lot more conservative with my Hellions during mid-game. On November 17 2012 09:23 bmoneyAK wrote: How should I control hellions as part of a TvZ mech push out? When I do TvZ mech push out my hellions end up at the front and they get fungaled, sometimes twice before the Z army comes in. This slows down my push and the fungals blow up the hellions super quick. How can I minimize this? I was thinking about putting half of the hellions on a follow command on the rear siege tank and leading with a separate control group of a couple of hellions to bait fungals. When a dozen hellions at the front of my push get blown up by fungals it's really annoying, both because I lose the hellions but because zerglings get to engage the thors and I cry terran tears. What about leading with the thors, since they shrug off fungal damage and can't be rooted, and if anything comes within melee range the hellions will burn them? Maybe I should be tanking with the unit that has most HP. Yes, you need to be careful; Hellions are much faster than Tanks/Thors so if you don't pay attention, they will run into Fungals, and you want to avoid that as they're part of your meat shield (and your firepower if he has mass Zerglings). Either control them manually or have them follow one of your slower units. Then, in a fight, Hellions should be in front if he has mass Roaches; if he has mass Zerglings, you should hit & run so they're not surrounded. You can lead with Thors; they can be rooted but they're much tougher. You can also lead with Cloaked Banshees if you have any left. On November 18 2012 23:17 ThaSlayer wrote: Hi, I've watched LiquidSea's replays on T v Z and he switches to mass thors (literally 5 thors at a time) when dealing with ultra tech. Can anyone shed some light on the actual uses of the thor unit in the T v Z matchup? Apart from the initial 2-4 thors which scares away muta flocks? How do I incorporate thors effectively into mech play? I believe thors have the highest dps in the game. Thanks! When going Marines/Tanks you make 1 or 2 Thors against high Mutalisks counts (say 20+) to prevent them from sniping your Tanks easily when you move out. When going mech you make at least 2 Thors initially if you cannot rule out Mutalisk play; personnally I skip those Thors if I am able to scout an Infest Pit or Roach play because reaching a healthy Tank count is necessary against Roaches/Infestors. Generally I make some Thors later for my pre-Hive tech push, and go on with them against Hive tech as they're required against Ultralisks and decent against low BLs counts while you tech air. Against Hive tech, Thors fulfill some kind of shaky core unit role: whenever a big trade occurs, you can make some of them after the fight because they're useful whether your opponent chooses to remax on Ultralisks or BLs. Basically they're decent against a lot of things but don't really shine against anything. On November 19 2012 02:51 saaaa wrote: Today i ask myself in mech TvZ scenario where i have Mass Tanks and the opponent go for a ultralisk composition. Should i let my tanks sieged or should i unsiege and "Stutterstep" away? The same question für Ultra+Infestor. Should i wait until they throw all their eggs away and then unsiege and stutterstep? I dont know the perfect way to engage those armies and some pro let them sieged and some unsiege them. Maybe only siege if i create a small entrance where splash damage is really effective? hope u guys can help me thx Sieged Tanks can blast Infestors from afar and are able to clean Zerglings swarms, unsieged Tanks have a higher dps against individual targets. So it depends on his composition; if he has many Infestors you don't want to be unsieged as he will be able (a) to surround your army with IT eggs [the least eggs he's able to throw the better] and (b) to use NP on Thors. Generally speaking you don't want pure Tanks to deal with Ultralisks, a balanced mixture of Hellions/Thors/Tanks will perform better. If you don't Siege all your Tanks, be sure to focus Infestors with the sieged ones [don't forget to scan (a) for vision and (b) to make sure you don't lose your focus if he burrows them] and Ultralisks with the unsieged ones. | ||
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