On September 18 2012 03:37 MrLlama wrote: new video up showing how to nexus first vs a 2 rax scv all in
I don't think it should ever be possible to hold a 2 rax scv all-in with nexus first unless you build a forge. Your opponent in the video has absolutely horrid micro, if he had just a-moved everything to start he would have won easily. The first engagement he ran all his scvs past your units, and then let you surround and kill his first 2 marines. You should never, ever be able to surround his marines like that. If you're going nexus first and he's 2 raxing you, you better drop a forge and hope to complete some cannons at your ramp.
I don't think it should ever be possible to hold a 2 rax scv all-in with nexus first unless you build a forge. Your opponent in the video has absolutely horrid micro, if he had just a-moved everything to start he would have won easily. The first engagement he ran all his scvs past your units, and then let you surround and kill his first 2 marines. You should never, ever be able to surround his marines like that. If you're going nexus first and he's 2 raxing you, you better drop a forge and hope to complete some cannons at your ramp.
1. it's definitely possible, axslav has done it many time 2. my "horrid" opponent is a grandmasters league player who was a finalist at the WCS South American Finals (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/5393887). His micro is going to be better than most anybody who does this against you. Yes his initial charge with the scvs was a bit ahead of the marines, but he actually microed to save a marine or two out of that plus even if he "a-moves" like you say, I can still mineral walk to the base in front of mine so my probes run right through his scvs to get to his marines. 3. Cannons are also an acceptable opening assuming you go 16 nex/16 forge. This is only viable upon scouting gasless opening from your opponent, thus requiring a 9 scout to actually get there. My probe did find his base first and so by the time I got there I couldn't tell if he was going gasless or not, thus I couldn't determine if a forge would be the right opener.
I don't think it should ever be possible to hold a 2 rax scv all-in with nexus first unless you build a forge. Your opponent in the video has absolutely horrid micro, if he had just a-moved everything to start he would have won easily. The first engagement he ran all his scvs past your units, and then let you surround and kill his first 2 marines. You should never, ever be able to surround his marines like that. If you're going nexus first and he's 2 raxing you, you better drop a forge and hope to complete some cannons at your ramp.
1. it's definitely possible, axslav has done it many time 2. my "horrible" opponent is a grandmasters league player who was a finalist at the WCS South American Finals (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/5393887). His micro is going to be better than most anybody who does this against you. Yes his initial charge with the scvs was a bit ahead of the marines, but he actually microed to save a marine or two out of that plus even if he "a-moves" like you say, I can still mineral walk to the base in front of mine so my probes run right through his scvs to get to his marines. 3. Cannons are also an acceptable opening assuming you go 16 nex/16 forge. This is only viable upon scouting gasless opening from your opponent, thus requiring a 9 scout to actually get there. My probe did find his base first and so by the time I got there I couldn't tell if he was going gasless or not, thus I couldn't determine if a forge would be the right opener.
Okay, upon watching the video more closely:
1. This is not the exact build I think of when someone says "2 rax scv all-in". He builds the 2nd depot to block out your scout, and ends up as a result building the 2nd rax on 16 instead of doing something like 12/12rax, or 12/14rax. This makes me more inclined to believe you can hold it as you show in the video. 2. GM or not, he messed up the first engagement really bad. Sure, he saves one of his marines, but he still lets you get a good surround on his marines, losing 1 marine and letting 2 marines get into red hp while being forced to run around and not add their dps to the engagement (which makes them a lot easier to deal with with your first stalker). There is no reason to run all his scvs up the ramp like that -- I get that he wants to trap the zealot, but he ends up just running all of his scvs past your units, which is why I said he had "horrid micro". Note: I did not say that your opponent was "horrible" (I didn't even use the word "horrible", nice use of quotes), I just said he had "horrid micro", and I was really just referring to the first engagement. Edit: You say his micro will be better than anyone doing this against me, but I'm basically arguing he tried over microing (trying to do a fancy mineral walk up your ramp to trap your zealot), rather than just keeping his stuff as a ball and a-moving, which would have worked out better in this case. 3. He unnecessarily builds a bunker at your expo, and starts his bunker in your main late.
As for Axslav, I would appreciate it if you would link me to some replays / VODs of any professional games of a player going nexus first and holding a 2 rax scv all-in. I'm curious if you mean only some sort of reactionary scv all-in (scout nexus first, then build more rax), or which of the following you think you can hold: 11/11 proxied, 11/11 not proxied, 12/14, etc. I also wouldn't be too surprised if a pro managed to hold it on a much bigger map, as it may be possible to have stalkers out by that time. I just don't think it's possible to hold on shakuras.
I don't think it should ever be possible to hold a 2 rax scv all-in with nexus first unless you build a forge. Your opponent in the video has absolutely horrid micro, if he had just a-moved everything to start he would have won easily. The first engagement he ran all his scvs past your units, and then let you surround and kill his first 2 marines. You should never, ever be able to surround his marines like that. If you're going nexus first and he's 2 raxing you, you better drop a forge and hope to complete some cannons at your ramp.
1. it's definitely possible, axslav has done it many time 2. my "horrible" opponent is a grandmasters league player who was a finalist at the WCS South American Finals (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/5393887). His micro is going to be better than most anybody who does this against you. Yes his initial charge with the scvs was a bit ahead of the marines, but he actually microed to save a marine or two out of that plus even if he "a-moves" like you say, I can still mineral walk to the base in front of mine so my probes run right through his scvs to get to his marines. 3. Cannons are also an acceptable opening assuming you go 16 nex/16 forge. This is only viable upon scouting gasless opening from your opponent, thus requiring a 9 scout to actually get there. My probe did find his base first and so by the time I got there I couldn't tell if he was going gasless or not, thus I couldn't determine if a forge would be the right opener.
Okay, upon watching the video more closely:
1. This is not the exact build I think of when someone says "2 rax scv all-in". He builds the 2nd depot to block out your scout, and ends up as a result building the 2nd rax on 16 instead of doing something like 12/12rax, or 12/14rax. This makes me more inclined to believe you can hold it as you show in the video. 2. GM or not, he messed up the first engagement really bad. Sure, he saves one of his marines, but he still lets you get a good surround on his marines, losing 1 marine and letting 2 marines get into red hp while being forced to run around and not add their dps to the engagement (which makes them a lot easier to deal with with your first stalker). There is no reason to run all his scvs up the ramp like that -- I get that he wants to trap the zealot, but he ends up just running all of his scvs past your units, which is why I said he had "horrid micro". Note: I did not say that your opponent was "horrible" (I didn't even use the word "horrible", nice use of quotes), I just said he had "horrid micro", and I was really just referring to the first engagement. Edit: You say his micro will be better than anyone doing this against me, but I'm basically arguing he tried over microing (trying to do a fancy mineral walk up your ramp to trap your zealot), rather than just keeping his stuff as a ball and a-moving, which would have worked out better in this case. 3. He unnecessarily builds a bunker at your expo, and starts his bunker in your main late.
As for Axslav, I would appreciate it if you would link me to some replays / VODs of any professional games of a player going nexus first and holding a 2 rax scv all-in. I'm curious if you mean only some sort of reactionary scv all-in (scout nexus first, then build more rax), or which of the following you think you can hold: 11/11 proxied, 11/11 not proxied, 12/14, etc. I also wouldn't be too surprised if a pro managed to hold it on a much bigger map, as it may be possible to have stalkers out by that time. I just don't think it's possible to hold on shakuras.
1. this is a reactionary 2 rax scv all in. So he was planning on doing a 1 rax FE (with supply depot to deny scouting) and then switches into a proxied rax when he scouts the nexus. So it is a little different. Were he to go for a 12/14 rax it would be a tiny bit harder to hold as the second zealot would probably just be finishing instead of down the ramp. 2. changed horrible to horrid. Someone else may keep their scvs with the army better, but they won't micro the marines to save them as well so I think it trades off. 3. the bunker at the expo actually is a decent idea for falling back and possibly being able to snipe the nexus. In other attempts that bunker actually proved to be effective because once I could force him out of my base he was still able to snipe my nexus since I couldn't push down the ramp. The bunker in my main I don't feel was that late. He placed it when he could get there to secure it going down. Possibly could've been a tiny bit faster but there is a LOT going on during this engagement and the micro of units, the production of units, the rallying and group of units, the building of structures, etc is quite taxing on both players, so nobody is going to have it perfect.
In other news, I've updated the OP so that it shows the episodes by race instead of by episode number. This should be helpful so that you can locate the videos you want to watch for your race.
Thanks for the link I'm going to check it out. I know I may seem a little hostile but I do think your videos are great and have a lot of useful information. I just only responded to the one that I had an issue with
Oh lawdy lawd. There are a lot of things here which I can already tell I'll be watching in this. I'll be back to ask questions/give some comments and criticisms is necessary. Cheers!
Got a request for you. ZvZ, could you do a guide on how to transition after defending an early pool? Should I go fast roaches or banes to exploit his lack of gas units?
Yesterday I defended a 7 pool and still got owned when he was able to expand and all. Platinum BTW. I guess I just played bad. What I usually do is get my gas when I am sure I can defend well and then go fast bane, betting on the fact that he is way behind. But it did not work yesterday as he had already bane of his own at home and he defended whatever I threw at him.
Thanks!
P.S. Just wanted to add that your videos are VERY helpful. Especially the one vs mech. I never had the balls to get the drop tech vs T. Always got scared it was a bad investment. Will try to abuse his lack of mobility from now on. Thanks again
On September 27 2012 05:33 b0ub0u wrote: Hey MrLIama
Got a request for you. ZvZ, could you do a guide on how to transition after defending an early pool? Should I go fast roaches or banes to exploit his lack of gas units?
Yesterday I defended a 7 pool and still got owned when he was able to expand and all. Platinum BTW. I guess I just played bad. What I usually do is get my gas when I am sure I can defend well and then go fast bane, betting on the fact that he is way behind. But it did not work yesterday as he had already bane of his own at home and he defended whatever I threw at him.
Thanks!
P.S. Just wanted to add that your videos are VERY helpful. Especially the one vs mech. I never had the balls to get the drop tech vs T. Always got scared it was a bad investment. Will try to abuse his lack of mobility from now on. Thanks again
It really depends on how he transitions after the 7 pool.
What it sounds like is that after he 7 pooled, instead of using the "when you're ahead get further ahead rule", you just tried to all in him instead right back. He all ins you? Macro up while you put on some pressure so he can't macro freely.
I'd say the easiest thing to do here would be drone up and get a roach warren, then you can go for a ling/roach push that will absolutely crush him because he can't macro enough to catch up AND defend that. Plus you can use the roaches as a slight defense if he tries to continue because u can wall ur ramp and be fine.
Added a new video. A cheese that I thought would be worthless actually turns out to be somewhat decent if not fully prepared for (not just grabbing a bunker but grabbing additional barracks as well).
Even if they don't engage, they can contain and expand behind it themselves to get even and then ahead.
On September 30 2012 02:50 Leru wrote: Great work! All your videos are quite educational I wonder why there are so few subscribers, but hopefully you'll get more attention.
tell your friends
thanks though. I'm just glad I can help as many people as I do already!
Thank you for providing us with xour series and your videos, i really like them.
I've got a question as far as ZvP vs Immortal/Sentry All-In is concerned.
In your hold video vs the 10 min push you use ling/bling, while in your 12:30 hold you use ling/roach/infestor. When I scout his double gas at his expansion and see we robo with my overlord I dont know when he will execute his push, so how to combine your 2 very different styles? I think building a baneling nest is quite delay and the ressources could be spent otherwise.
On September 30 2012 23:07 DarkZonk wrote: Hey MrLlama
Thank you for providing us with xour series and your videos, i really like them.
I've got a question as far as ZvP vs Immortal/Sentry All-In is concerned.
In your hold video vs the 10 min push you use ling/bling, while in your 12:30 hold you use ling/roach/infestor. When I scout his double gas at his expansion and see we robo with my overlord I dont know when he will execute his push, so how to combine your 2 very different styles? I think building a baneling nest is quite delay and the ressources could be spent otherwise.
Sure very fair.
In the videos I was kind of trying to show you can hold with various things. ling/roach/infestor works but so does ling/bling so really you could use either style (Thought it's harder to hold with just ling/roach in my opinion because it takes a little more micro if he hits before infestors).
A baneling nest cost 100/50, which really isn't very much when you consider he is going all in with this. If you drop it a little early and he doesn't go for the 10:00, it means you're missing like 1/2 of an infestor in the later battle. You CAN Hold it without this, but I think it's good to get just in case if you want to use ling bling
On October 01 2012 23:16 DarkZonk wrote: Even though I dont have a replay, I'd like to see a video on ZvP vs very early (min 7.30-8) 6 gate pressure after toss went FFE or 1gate expand.
caught me quite off guard todayher normalyl has like 3-4 sentries 4-5 stalker 2-3 zealots and keeps warping in
Sure thing I'll add it to the list!
If you have a replay that would be great to see, but I'm going to assume that this 6 gate pressure was off 2 gas only when I make the video?
EPT
