I've continued to use this build in Season 8 with great success. The majority of players are either going for an earlier third with roaches, which means I usually don't win the game with the first attack, but I can kill off his third hatchery which puts me ahead - then the follow-up +1/+1 timing with speed generally ends it. Or players will tech up on two bases and go mutalisks, in which case most times I end the game outright with the first attack. There are some more savvy players who anticipate this type of aggression and build the necessary spine/zergling defense to hold without losing drones, but even against this style it's possible to win with a follow-up timing with infestors and/or hydralisks and +1+1 Speed Roaches.

I used to have struggles holding off 2-base baneling all-ins, but after taking the time to optimize my Hatch-Warren-Evo-Evo wall-off positioning, it's become increasingly easy to hold off in time for roaches. Any other timing (Like similar roach builds or roach/ling/baneling builds) get shut down pretty hard by this style as well.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

September 11 2012 21:49 GMT

#45

I've also edited the OP with a more optimized build order for the economic style.

TheOnlyRedViper

Norway20 Posts

October 19 2012 18:28 GMT

#46

Great build and guide! By watching you do this build on your stream I have improved my zvz alot.
Still loose to alot of early speedling all inns tho. Can't seem to get that wall of yours down

Salivanth

Australia1071 Posts

November 02 2012 05:34 GMT

#47

Is it possible to do this build, but instead of walling in vs. ling-baneling all-ins, get a baneling nest as part of your opening, like standard ZvZ? It doesn't seem to cost too much, and allows you to play a more standard game, playing totally normally until you throw down the Roach Warren and macro hatch. (As well as allowing you to put your Roach Warren in a less scoutable position, since you don't need to wall in with it.) The build doesn't seem to be super tight on units like other all-ins...like, there's a massive difference between 7 roaches and 8 roaches, but there's much less of a difference between 24 roaches and 25. You could even morph a handful of banelings with your attack if you did this, to attack lings/crawlers.

ROOTSolO

Norway37 Posts

January 07 2013 00:59 GMT

#48

Sick build! 100% win rate

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 13 2013 08:10 GMT

#49

Have made some minor changes to the "economic" style, but this is still my go-to ZvZ build.

HaVoK12

United States9 Posts

January 17 2013 06:01 GMT

#50

Hi TangSC~

Thanks so much for your builds and tutorials! Rank 1 plat (NA)/high gold (KR) Zerg and sometimes Random player here.

In ZvZ I have used your 15p/15g/17h ling all-in until now, but it's working less and less because of better defense and better executed early pools in the mid- to high-diamond range. A Korean friend said that many on the KR server at the high level use the econ 10 pool into whatever timing attack/build they want to go for because they are safe against early pools and does well vs 15 hatch. So my idea was to use an econ 10 pool into this “roach-ling all-in” build. I have been just winging it until now and have had mixed success. Here is the build I’ve been using:

10/10 Pool
2x drones (1 extractor trick)
11/10 OL
11/18 x3 lings x1 Queen
16/18 x1 ling
17/18 x1 ling
18/18 OL
18/18 x1 Queen (double extractor trick)
18/26+ drones

And then from there it depends on what their build was and how much, if any, damage was dealt.

The games I won were when I came out ahead by killing their 15 hatch or, if they went 14/14, killing 3-5 probes then defending their all-in. The games that I have lost have been when the opponent (with some 14g/14p or other early gas build) defended the 10 pool, we came out more or less even, then they dropped their expansion before me and denied me from taking my expansion because of their slings and blings at my natural, then macroed behind it and got a lead.

My questions are these:
1) Is it possible or realistic to use an econ 10 pool in order to transition into your build?
2) What would be the best way to think about the transition or new build order? For example, after attacking him, should I just build my gas when I have 15 drones (not supply obv, because I have lings and queens), drop my expo at 17 drones, etc., no matter what he does? Or what factors should I take into account when making this transition? I am making branches of this opening… ie, against 15 hatch, 12-16pool with gas, 12-16 pool with fast hatch and late gas, and early pools. Is this the right approach?
3) Have you ever played the econ 10 pool opening yourself? Did you have certain timing attacks in mind when you played it?

Thanks in advance if you take the time to respond^^

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 19 2013 14:49 GMT

#51

On January 17 2013 15:01 HaVoK12 wrote:
Hi TangSC~

Thanks so much for your builds and tutorials! Rank 1 plat (NA)/high gold (KR) Zerg and sometimes Random player here.

In ZvZ I have used your 15p/15g/17h ling all-in until now, but it's working less and less because of better defense and better executed early pools in the mid- to high-diamond range. A Korean friend said that many on the KR server at the high level use the econ 10 pool into whatever timing attack/build they want to go for because they are safe against early pools and does well vs 15 hatch. So my idea was to use an econ 10 pool into this “roach-ling all-in” build. I have been just winging it until now and have had mixed success. Here is the build I’ve been using:

10/10 Pool
2x drones (1 extractor trick)
11/10 OL
11/18 x3 lings x1 Queen
16/18 x1 ling
17/18 x1 ling
18/18 OL
18/18 x1 Queen (double extractor trick)
18/26+ drones

And then from there it depends on what their build was and how much, if any, damage was dealt.

The games I won were when I came out ahead by killing their 15 hatch or, if they went 14/14, killing 3-5 probes then defending their all-in. The games that I have lost have been when the opponent (with some 14g/14p or other early gas build) defended the 10 pool, we came out more or less even, then they dropped their expansion before me and denied me from taking my expansion because of their slings and blings at my natural, then macroed behind it and got a lead.

My questions are these:
1) Is it possible or realistic to use an econ 10 pool in order to transition into your build?
2) What would be the best way to think about the transition or new build order? For example, after attacking him, should I just build my gas when I have 15 drones (not supply obv, because I have lings and queens), drop my expo at 17 drones, etc., no matter what he does? Or what factors should I take into account when making this transition? I am making branches of this opening… ie, against 15 hatch, 12-16pool with gas, 12-16 pool with fast hatch and late gas, and early pools. Is this the right approach?
3) Have you ever played the econ 10 pool opening yourself? Did you have certain timing attacks in mind when you played it?

Thanks in advance if you take the time to respond^^

1) It's definitely realistic to use an econ 10pool, as long as you keep the goal of 38 Drones 3 queens 3 hatcheries 2gas.
2) You'd have to experiment with the gas timings, but what you say seems a reasonable starting point. I can't really say what situational responses you should have after a 10pool econ opening, because it's not a build I've used in ladder.
3) Not since Beta, and things have changed too much for my experience to be relevant. Sorry I can't be more help!

Bansai

Germany1 Post

March 04 2013 20:30 GMT

#52

But how you deal with that eco 10pool with Pool First? I have the feeling every 2nd Zerg do that, and it´s so annoying. I have to cancel my hatch and he get his own in that moment. Sometimes he is able to kill 1-3 drones as well.
First i need lings to get him pulling back, and when i build my Hatchery im so far behind, that i lose every fucking game.

Audio

United States60 Posts

March 05 2013 08:17 GMT

#53

I really think the macro hatch should be at the third.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

March 05 2013 13:12 GMT

#54

On March 05 2013 17:17 Audio wrote:
I really think the macro hatch should be at the third.

Good luck holding a baneling bust if you do that

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

March 06 2013 16:50 GMT

#55

On March 05 2013 05:30 Bansai wrote:
But how you deal with that eco 10pool with Pool First? I have the feeling every 2nd Zerg do that, and it´s so annoying. I have to cancel my hatch and he get his own in that moment. Sometimes he is able to kill 1-3 drones as well.
First i need lings to get him pulling back, and when i build my Hatchery im so far behind, that i lose every fucking game.

I know what you mean, 10pool eco is annoying. You can either cancel your expansion and rebuild it later, or you can try to keep the Lings off of it by pulling Drones (Until your Pool finishes and you can build your own lings). Neither are ideal scenarios, but you can always play a safer opening (15pool/15hatch) or really any pool-first opening and do the Roach/Ling push in the midgame, it'll just delay it a bit.