[G] ZvZ Roach/Ling All-In (Or is it?)

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

August 04 2012 18:31 GMT

[G] ZvZ Roach/Ling All-In (Or is it?)

Hello Ladies and Gentlemen of Team Liquid!

It is with great pleasure that I present a new guide to an alternative style in my favorite matchup, Zerg vs Zerg. Those of you who read my last ZvZ guide know why it is my favorite: there are plenty of opportunities to be constantly - one could say relentlessly - aggressive.

While this may be my preferred approach to the matchup, I know there are many Zerg players who prefer a more economy-focused style. That's why I've recommended two opening build orders: one "aggressive", the other one "macro". Regardless of how you choose to play out the opening, your mid-game goal will be the same in terms of economy and timing attack:

Economy: 3 Queens, 3Hatcheries, 38 Drones.

Timing Attack: 9:15-10:00, 16-22 Roaches, 20-30 Speedlings.

Whether you choose to execute this timing attack as an all-in by streaming constant reinforcements or merely as pressure to do damage while you secure an upgrade/worker advantage is completely up to you - but the stream videos will analyse not only a variety of ways to macro up and execute this potent midgame timing attack, but also a variety of ways to transition out of the style and into the later stages of the game.

Build Order - Aggressive Opening:

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Note: Due to the explosive nature of ZvZ, this is a tentative build order meant to serve as a reference for ideal goals/timings. It's important to know the steps of the build, but there will be numerous situations that may prompt you to deviate. For learning purposes, I highly recommend watching the stream episodes in the order they're presented throughout the guide - all of the replay analysis features games against Top Master/Grandmaster players:

Tutorial 1: When, Why, and How to Execute a Speedling All-In
Tutorial 2: Defending All-Ins with the "Aggressive" Opening.

15Pool

15Gas

17Hatchery

16Queen

18Overlord

18-21Zerglings and speed with first 100 gas, remove from geyser - should have 16 Drones 2 per patch in main, so you can rally main hatchery to expansion. (Note: If opponent goes hatch first, you only need 1 set of lings instead of 3.)

21Queen (Inject/transfer first Queen to expansion)

23Overlord

23-24 you can produce a ling or drone, depending on how aggressive you want to be.
First Inject used on lings (speed will finish as these lings do, allowing you to move out/pressure.

29-32 you can produce lings or drones, depending on how aggressive you want to be. You have the option to Speedling All-In (Lings to 44+). If not...

32~ Spine at expansion, start refilling the gas in the mid/late 30s.

42~ 2nd Gas, Macro Hatch, Roach Warren (42 is rough, you do this as you start to reach full saturation at expansion ie. 16 drones)

48~ Cut drones (Reach 2Drones x 16 Mineral Patches = 32 Drones) + (3 Drones x 2 Geysers = 6 Drones) = 38 Drones), produce 3rd queen and 4-5 overlords.

48-84~ Roaches. Build a minimum of 16, ideally 20-22.

84 Overlord x2

Use a triple-inject on Lings, then begin to transition by building 10 drones (2 to construct geysers, 6 to fill it up, 2 for evolution chambers. Note: You can do these steps before producing your Zerglings if you want to be more macro/transition oriented.

View the "Transition" section for the follow-up to the timing attacks

Build Order - Economic Opening:

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Note: Again this is a tentative build order, and deviations may be necessary depending on your opponent's build order:

Tutorial 3: Optimal Economic Opening
Tutorial 4: Defending All-Ins with the "Economic Opening"

15Hatch

17Pool

18Gas - Reach 16-drone saturation in main and next two Drones rallied into gas, then rally to expansion. Against hatch-first, I generally opt for 2 drones in gas instead of three until 28 supply when I put in the third drone.

18 Overlord

18-20 Drones

20 Double Queen (Normal to have a small supply block here)

24-26 Drones (Optional 1 Zergling to scout)

26 Overlord

26-28 Drones (28th Drone rallied into main geyser to fill it)

28-32 Drones

32 Spine / 3rd Queen / 2nd Gas

32 Overlord

32 Double inject finishes, use on drones (If absolutely necessary, lings).

44 Macro Hatch, Roach Warren (Replace Drones to 44), Zergling Speed - notice not rushing for ling speed.

44 Supply - If you've built 0 Lings, you should be at exactly 38 drones. (2Drones x 16 Mineral Patches = 32 Drones) + (3 Drones x 2 Geysers = 6 Drones) = 38 Drones) if your opponent moves out with ling/baneling all-in, complete the wall-in with evolution chambers and build 3-4 spines/zerglings while you wait for roaches

44 Overlordsx6 (Up to 94 supply)

44-94 Roaches

94 2xOverlords

94-104 Speedlings rallied to the roaches

104+ Build enough drones to start/fill the two other gas geysers, as well as 2 extra for evolution chambers. Start your lair and a total of 10 Drones, putting you at exactly 44 workers. If your opponent shows no signs of roaches and is able to hold off your attack, it's usually a good idea to anticipate mutalisks and produce additional queens and drones to build spores.

View the "Transitions" section for follow-ups to the Roach/Ling timing attack.

Opening Overview #1: Tang vs iPBellini (Aggressive Opening)

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Click Here for Replay Analysis of Tang vs iPBellini

1) 15Pool 15 Gas:

2) 17 Hatchery:

3) 3 Sets of Lings, then some drones until first inject where you build 4 more sets of lings:

4) As you push out with 14-16Speedlings, build one spine and drone:

5) Engage the front, kill some banes, force him to build units:

6) Secure lead by skipping banes and harassing opponent:

7) Remember that macro hatch around 42 supply, and second gas then warren:

8) Move out when you've amassed a decent roach count (using most of gas). Lings rallied!

9) Engage the front:

10) Kill what you can, squeeze out some drones behind it:

11) The evolution chambers were late this time, could have been built after roaches:

12) 4 Spores (2 per base) is plenty to defend while you bank up some gas and minerals:

13) Hydra Den + Infestation pit for a nice 2base +1/+1 timing:

14) Getting all those upgrades...and LOTS of lings while gas is spent on infestorhydra

15) A multi-pronged counter attack (roaches to natural, lings to third) forces his mutas to stop harassing and also shuts down his 3rd:

16) Pull the units back home to meet up with infestor/hydra:

17) Move out!

18) Opponent sets up a good flank, but hydras in back doing lots of damage:

19) Able to break through with a large group of reinforcing lings:

20) Bringing some queens along to transfuse and break the natural:

21) GG:

Opening Overview #2: Tang vs Lynissea (Economic Opening)

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Click Here for Replay Analysis of Tang vs Lynissea

1) 15 Hatchery

2) 16 Pool

3) 17 Gas

4) Reach Full Saturation in Main (2 per patch, 16 Drones) Rally next 3 drones into geyser:

5) The Overlord has scouted my opponent went hatch first. I know I'm safe for a while to drone to 26, get another overlord, continue droning and queue up third queen at expansion. Around 5minutes or 32supply is when you start a spine at the front:

6) Around this time (low 30s of supply) Start rallying into gas geysers. Don't disrupt those mineral miners.

7) Do not forget that overlord around 32 supply! It's a common mistake notice injects are coming up.

8) after the big wave of drones, start your 2nd gas at your expansion.

9) Commence your expansion wall-in by building a macro hatch around 42 supply:

10) Use your warren as part of the wall right after, also 42~ supply. In a desperate situation, you can complete the wall-in with evolution chambers:

11) Start overlord production for roaches. Double-check your mineral and gas saturation. You should have precisely 38 drones (32 mining minerals, 6 mining gas):

12) If you build extra drones, start the gas geysers and fill them - you need gas for the transition anyway.

13) As you're building roaches, squeeze out 2 drones to put down your evo chambers. Don't start the evolution chambers until after you've built 16+ Roaches for your first attack.

14) Once your roaches move out, use a triple-inject of Zerglings for produce 22+ Zerglings. They will catch up and supplement your attack.

15) Start your evolution chamber upgrades with your first 250 gas after Roaches.

16) Start your Lair, and make sure you have filled all the gas geysers and you're still double-mining every mineral patch:

17) Most games you will break the front, but sometimes you can up the ramp:

18) Drones are always a great target:

19) GG:

20) My follow-up would have been spores in each mineral line, Roaches with speed and +1+1 as well as infestors. I would use Roach counter-attacks to ensure he does not take a third:

Transitioning against Roaches or Mutas:

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Before building a single roach, you've reached optimal 2base mineral saturation (32 drones mining minerals). Regardless of how you transition, it's very important to maintain this saturation while adding buildings and evolution chambers. You actually want to aim to sit at 44 drones (6 more than 38 to fill the gases).

If you build 8 new drones to construct/fill the two additional geysers, and additional drones for structures, you're almost guaranteed to have mined more minerals than your opponent - and at the VERY least, deny their third base. Now transitioning just depends whether your opponent goes Muta or Roach.

Against opponents who go Roaches, I generally prefer to stay on 2 bases with a macro hatch to out-mass roaches against opponents who go roaches, because I've likely denied/forced the cancel at my opponent's third AND done significant damage to his natural. If I time +1+1 Range/Armor before starting the Lair, and start Roach speed 50-seconds into the +1+1 upgrades, all upgrades will finish at the same time which lets me hit another nice timing. It's very possible to FORCE your Roaching opponent to stay on two bases with you, where you have the army/upgrade advantage:

If your opponent goes Mutas, it'll be good for you to produce more than the10 drones necessary to fill the gas/start evo chambers because you're going to need at least 4 spores (2 per base) to defend your mineral lines/gas/structures. If you suspect or scout Muta, also pull you overlords back to your base and consider producing 2-3 extra queens (so you're sitting with 2 spores at each base and 5~ Queens.) As you do all this, you're banking up gas - this gives you unique opportunities to hit some nice timings with Infestor/Roach or even Infestor/Roach/Hydra:

In both scenarios, you may not opt for a two-base timing. It's viable to take a third with +1+1, drone up and play defensive with Roach/Spine until you get infestors out. I usually lean towards the constant 2-base aggression since you have the macro hatch, but some games your macro may slip or it may just be correct to take a third. From here, you have a lot of options of how you play your 3-bases with a macro-hatch. My recommendation is some variation of a 66 Drone Economy (2x24minerals) + (3x6gas) = 66 Drones. This allows you to fully saturate your minerals/gas, so you can max out with +2+2 Infestor/Roach/Hydra or Infestor/Roach. I think very aggressive 3base styles with either nydus worms, burrow or drop harass is stronger than 4-base Hive style, but that's up to you

Transition Overview #1: Tang vs EGMachine (Transition Against Roaches)

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Click Here for Replay Analysis against EGMachine

1) Roach-Ling Engages Expansion, I scout roaches as they come out:

2) I continue to engage and trade armies:

3) Once pressure has died down, I check for a third and pull back:

4) The evo chambers, 3rd-4th gas, and lair all start. Also droning a bit:

5) The last roaches took out a good amount of drones and secured me an economic lead:

6) His upgrades will finish earlier, but he has no third and a smaller army. I use my defender's advantage:

7) Once my +1+1 and Speed finish, I can go for another Roach timing attack while I tech for a few Infestors:

8) I follow it up with a 2 Infestor, Mass Roach timing:

9) With a few clutch fungals, I engage favorably:

10) GG:

Transition Overview #2: Tang vs RedAlert (Transition Against Mutas)

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Click Here for Replay Analysis against RedAlert

1) Roach/Ling Timing arrives:

2) Evo Chambers + Lair (Upgrades a bit late):

3) Mutas start attacking my roaches, I spore up main and natural:

4) Some form of tech is important against Mutas, this game I chose Infestors:

5) I pull all the overlords back to the main over the spore crawlers:

6) When Pathogen Glands is 31Seconds into its research, I build 6 Infestors:

7) Once the Infestors and +1+1 Roaches are out, it's time to hit:

8) Essential to kill his third:

9) Moving up into the natural:

10) GG:

Unit Composition/Roles/Micro:

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Executing the Roach/Speedling Timing Attack:

It's very important to engage properly with your Roach/Speedling timing. As a Universal Rule, always lead in with your Roaches and follow through with the Speedlings - Roaches are your "tanks" and the more damage they take, the more damage your Zerglings will do.

If your opponents have a Banelings as part of their defense, you want to ensure they're being either focused by a Roach or running into the Roaches instead of your 22+ Zerglings. Keeping Roaches on one control group and Zerglings on a second is recommended so that you can quickly maneuver your Zerglings. Roaches generally should target Banelings --> Spinecrawlers --> Zerglings/Drones --> Roaches. Banelings must die because they do too much damage to Zerglings, and Spines are very high DPS against your Roaches.

Likewise against a Zergling/Spine defense, don't be afraid to manually select 6-8 roaches to focus spire spinecrawlers. If your opponent has too many spines, you want to either back off to kill their third and transition, or try to force your way up the ramp. If you manage to kill his Zerglings, you can usually break into the main. If any of the spines are out of position (too far to the left or right) try to engage from the opposite side so that fewer spines are in range to attack your units. Below are some of the other units and their uses:

Overlord

Make a straight line of vision from your base to your opponent's base. In the early stages, you can escape Queens with your Overlords so there's no need to keep them pulled back. It is crucial to have Overlord vision of possible avenues that Zerglings can sneak to your base, especially if you're playing a macro-opening that requires you to build defensive Zerglings at a moment's notice. Later, your Roach/Ling push will inform you if your opponent is going Mutalisks, giving you time to pull the Overlords back to safety.

Overseer

In the mid-game, if you're ever unsure of your opponent's tech choice, you can find out for 50min/50 gas. Overseers are great to scout around the base and even drop a changeling to scout what he's doing with larva / where his units are going. Overseers are also used defensively once you establish a third - it's crucial to have one detecting the laneway into your third base and your natural since players may move on these bases burrowed Infestors or Roaches.

Queen

Queens are the lynch-pin of early defense. Walling off your ramp with a spine crawler in range can be the difference between losing and winning. Queens also add wonders to Zergling on Zergling battles, so don't be afraid to take a little damage on your queen while you're fighting. If you build your 3rd Queen early in the macro-style opening, you can either spread tumors or save for transfuse - creep spread is not a huge concern in the majority of ZvZ games. Additional Queens can be constructed in response to Mutalisks as well - 5 Queens and a few Spores can keep you very safe while you tech to Infestors and/or Hydralisks.

Slow Zergling

Slow-Lings are used for super-early defense and scouting. If your opponent does an early-pool, you generally want to engage with your first 4-6 Lings and drones instead of with just the drones (situations vary).

If your opponent goes for 14gas/14pool into speed (with or without banelings), you may need to use your slow lings to defend your expansion ramp. Against speedlings, try to keep your lings pulled back with the queen and let queens take up the attacks of 3-4 of the enemy speedlings. If possible, engage in narrow areas where your opponent's speed and superior Zergling count is less of a factor.

If you want to scout after your pool finishes, you can always build a set of Zerglings early to determine opponent's expansion saturation and occasionally you can get into the main.

Speedling

Depending on how you open, you may opt to be aggressive with speedlings or avoid their construction. Speedlings, however, are pretty necessary in holding off early 1-2 base baneling busts (those hitting between 5:30 and 7:30). Once speed is done, it's a great idea to have a few sets on the field to poke at your opponent's expansion for scouting information and harassment.

Roach

Roaches are your primary defense against attacks hitting after 8:00. If your opponent hits you with a speedling/baneling, roach/ling, or roach/ling/baneling timing, good placement of the your roaches will be key.

Against banelings, try to select a few roaches and focus them down while keeping big groups of banelings from connecting in the middle of your roaches. If your roaches aren't quite out yet, you can buy time by walling in your natural completely.

Against speedlings, it's important to stay walled-in with your ramp, buildings, minerals/gas geysers, etc. Give them as little surface area as possible.

Against other roaches, well, you should be fine because you have the same composition and defender's advantage. Incorporate your spine into that engagement.

All-In (Or is it?)

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It's definitely debatable, be sure to provide your reasoning.

Poll: Is this Roach/Ling timing all-in?

No - If you're on top of your multitasking, this attack is just a stepping stone into the midgame. (33)

65%

Yes - This attack puts all your eggs in one basket. You can't really transition out of it. (18)

35%

51 total votes

Your vote: Is this Roach/Ling timing all-in?

(Vote): Yes - This attack puts all your eggs in one basket. You can't really transition out of it.
(Vote): No - If you're on top of your multitasking, this attack is just a stepping stone into the midgame.

Show Support:

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Note: If any TL moderators or members of the community request, I will remove the links posted below. It is not my intention to sell anything or break the advertising guidelines, only to ask for help from the TL community in spreading content.

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Thanks you all for reading!

- Tang

WigglyTV

United States4 Posts

August 04 2012 19:30 GMT

Thanks for the build Tang! You've always been so helpful, and I've used your posts and tutorials to get myself up into top Diamond pushing Master's!

everdrone

Russian Federation22 Posts

August 04 2012 19:34 GMT

nice build, i already used it, after game vs you ^^

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

August 04 2012 19:37 GMT

Np WigglyTV, thanks for checking it out

For those with a reddit account, please upvote! : Reddit Link

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

August 04 2012 20:26 GMT

On August 05 2012 04:34 everdrone wrote:
nice build, i already used it, after game vs you ^^

Haha I remember that

WollKnoll

Namibia14 Posts

August 04 2012 20:44 GMT

Hi

Once again a great guide. Alway enjoy to read them.
Keep up the great work. The guides help extremely alot. All players should read them......

Thank you

Sanchen

United States2 Posts

August 05 2012 04:02 GMT

Another great guide! Thanks for this Next month I will hopefully be able to get some coaching from you really looking forward for it.

monkxly

Canada241 Posts

August 05 2012 04:07 GMT

really good guide, my student is reading all your guides right now ^_^

Chaosvuistje

Netherlands2581 Posts

August 05 2012 08:19 GMT

Just to chime in a little.

The aggressive opening works best against opponents that have a later gas than yours. Especially against players that want to go for a Mutalisk based style. The no-gas invested speedlings will destroy spines and Queens and outright kill if the opponent went too greedy, and force out Banelings should the opponent have gone Baneling nest before ling speed ( which he will if he wants to be safe against these kinds of shenanigans ). Although I prefer to do that timing after the Hatch first opening rather than a 15 gas 15 pool opening because the aggression comes as more of a surprise than a pool-gas opening.

Also, why do you put the hatch up in the front? You know that you won't have to block against Banelings like that and you're just making your own top-of-the-ramp concave smaller. If you go up against players that react to scouting ( gasp! ) and they see a Roachwarren and a Hatch at the front ( without evochamber ) they will naturally delay their third and spine up. You're basically saying to the opponent "here's my build, deal with it" without even forcing him to scout the main. If I were to go for such a timing-attack based play, I would atleast hide my tech and my units for as long as possible.

--------------------

While the Mutalisk players didn't neccesarily play correctly against your style, I can definitely see me losing against this if I am caught off guard. It's hard to come back if the opponent runs Zerglings by into the main while you have to rely on your Spinecrawlers to hold back the huge Roach force. With the delayed tech on your side the only way to really respond to a Mutalisking player is to go for a massive 2 base desperation attack with Hydralisks and Infestors, but that's just the way it works if you delaye your lair for that long and it shouldn't really come to people as much of a surprise. Against good players, this will fail every so often if he knows what he is doing and scouts properly. Against bad players, well those only flip coins buildwise anyway and you can really beat them with whatever build as long as you know what damage you need to do and how to respond.

Salivanth

Australia1071 Posts

August 05 2012 11:34 GMT

#10

This build seems really good. I love the Economic opening. Really powers drones hard and then hits hard, but has a great transition waiting with the double Evo chambers. Will have to try it out! Your other ZvZ build is more aggressive than I like, but this one seems dead-on. I like to attack, but I don't like all-ins. Your link to the Optimal Economic Opening appears to be meant for editing the post though, instead of linking to an actual post.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

August 07 2012 15:02 GMT

#11

On August 05 2012 17:19 Chaosvuistje wrote:
Just to chime in a little.

The aggressive opening works best against opponents that have a later gas than yours. Especially against players that want to go for a Mutalisk based style. The no-gas invested speedlings will destroy spines and Queens and outright kill if the opponent went too greedy, and force out Banelings should the opponent have gone Baneling nest before ling speed ( which he will if he wants to be safe against these kinds of shenanigans ). Although I prefer to do that timing after the Hatch first opening rather than a 15 gas 15 pool opening because the aggression comes as more of a surprise than a pool-gas opening.

I actually like the aggressive opening most against players who do earlier gas than me, like 14gas/14pool 20 hatch, because I feel like the economic lead I get early will give me the edge to overwhelm their expansion, but I agree that it is nice against players who do hatch-first into mutas because you will delay their tech by forcing banelings. I've seen Stephano do hatch-first variations of speedling pressure, which arrives only slightly later and is often unexpected, like you say.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

August 07 2012 15:48 GMT

#12

On August 05 2012 17:19 Chaosvuistje wrote:

Also, why do you put the hatch up in the front? You know that you won't have to block against Banelings like that and you're just making your own top-of-the-ramp concave smaller. If you go up against players that react to scouting ( gasp! ) and they see a Roachwarren and a Hatch at the front ( without evochamber ) they will naturally delay their third and spine up. You're basically saying to the opponent "here's my build, deal with it" without even forcing him to scout the main. If I were to go for such a timing-attack based play, I would atleast hide my tech and my units for as long as possible.

That hatchery has saved me from so many roach/ling, roach/ling/baneling, ling/baneling, and even just ling timing attacks. Though it's not ideal that he delay his third and spine up, I'm not as worried about that as I am about dying early on.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

August 07 2012 15:54 GMT

#13

On August 05 2012 20:34 Salivanth wrote:
This build seems really good. I love the Economic opening. Really powers drones hard and then hits hard, but has a great transition waiting with the double Evo chambers. Will have to try it out! Your other ZvZ build is more aggressive than I like, but this one seems dead-on. I like to attack, but I don't like all-ins. Your link to the Optimal Economic Opening appears to be meant for editing the post though, instead of linking to an actual post.

Updated the link, thanks for the tip!

NoisyNinja

United States991 Posts

August 07 2012 23:52 GMT

#14

Good build. I'm noticing that you MUST hit the timings as closely as possible otherwise your opponent will have enough time to react to this push. Is it just me not executing this build properly or is this what others (Tang) have noticed also?

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

August 08 2012 15:12 GMT

#15

On August 08 2012 08:52 NoisyNinja wrote:
Good build. I'm noticing that you MUST hit the timings as closely as possible otherwise your opponent will have enough time to react to this push. Is it just me not executing this build properly or is this what others (Tang) have noticed also?

Well it is important to hit the timings...if you're hitting 15 seconds late that could be the difference of your opponent having mutalisks on the field, or an upgrade could finish in that time.

AFSpeeDy

126 Posts

August 08 2012 17:02 GMT

#16

Just tried it out two games in a row, so my timings were not perfect.

Won both of them easy.

First game i catched him completely offguard and won easily.
Second Game i just had more units cause of the macro hatch.

(I played both games macro opening)

So great thanks to you Tang^^, Now its: Yay ZvZ and not uuh ZvZ -.-.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

August 09 2012 01:49 GMT

#17

On August 09 2012 02:02 ArkanTos wrote:
First game i catched him completely offguard and won easily.

Haha that should happen a lot

especially if you can make it to the 38 drone count earlier than your opponent does.

Xana

Denmark128 Posts

August 09 2012 02:56 GMT

#18

In my experience this kind of build outright dies to the semi-standard Ling/Spine into Infestor play, especially because your roaches have no speed. If I runby with +1/1 slings immediately as you move out I see no way in hell you can both kill me and defend your bases. -Especially since you skip a baneling nest. If you do choose to attack into a spinewall with drones and lings pulled to keep you in place, I just cannot imagine you winning said engagement. +0 attack roaches really suck vs +1/1 speedlings.

So I guess my question boils down to; When you move out and you see the massive runby when you're mid map, how will you respond? Will you attempt to return and salvage what can be saved, or will you attempt to push into what could be an extremely well spined base?

doggy

Germany306 Posts

August 09 2012 10:14 GMT

#19

What do you do against 1-1 ling builds?

Dont you think its better to not cut the bane nest? It helps you in multiple ways:

a) you will be able to fend off speedling/ling bling allins a lot more easily

b) you will be able to mix banes into your allin if you scout your opponent having only lings spines and banes

c) you will be able to make a minimum amount of defense at home to be safe of ling counters

Im really interested to get to know why you think this small investment is not worth it. Or do you have to cut every possible corner to make your builds work...?

Xana

Denmark128 Posts

August 09 2012 12:13 GMT

#20

c) you will be able to make a minimum amount of defense at home to be safe of ling counters

^ As the above poster said, this is vital. Even so, vs someone who's good at splitting up his lings, you won't hold a counterattack. Assuming you block your ramp off immediately, you still lose everything in your natural.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

August 09 2012 15:48 GMT

#21

On August 09 2012 11:56 Xana wrote:
In my experience this kind of build outright dies to the semi-standard Ling/Spine into Infestor play, especially because your roaches have no speed. If I runby with +1/1 slings immediately as you move out I see no way in hell you can both kill me and defend your bases. -Especially since you skip a baneling nest. If you do choose to attack into a spinewall with drones and lings pulled to keep you in place, I just cannot imagine you winning said engagement. +0 attack roaches really suck vs +1/1 speedlings.

So I guess my question boils down to; When you move out and you see the massive runby when you're mid map, how will you respond? Will you attempt to return and salvage what can be saved, or will you attempt to push into what could be an extremely well spined base?

In my experience using this build, pure-ling openings don't complete +1/+1 in time. If the opponent went for a counter-attack, I'd see it with the overlords and complete my wall-in with evo chambers. Perhaps the opponent's speedlings can break through one of the buildings in the meantime, but they'll take a good amount of damage from queens/spines behind the wall - but it should buy me the time needed to get roaches out.

I "could" pull back a bit and play safe, opting to hit a +1/+1 roach speed timing to make sure my opponent never gets a third, but I think his spine-wall defense will be pretty lacking if he has a threatening army out trying to break my natural. It's a strange situation that doesn't occur very often, but it's definitely not an outright build-order loss.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

August 09 2012 15:52 GMT

#22

On August 09 2012 19:14 doggy wrote:
What do you do against 1-1 ling builds?

Dont you think its better to not cut the bane nest? It helps you in multiple ways:

a) you will be able to fend off speedling/ling bling allins a lot more easily

b) you will be able to mix banes into your allin if you scout your opponent having only lings spines and banes

c) you will be able to make a minimum amount of defense at home to be safe of ling counters

Im really interested to get to know why you think this small investment is not worth it. Or do you have to cut every possible corner to make your builds work...?

I prefer the building wall-offs to be my defense against counter attacks and early all-ins. The baneling nest may seem like a small investment, but a drone, 100 minerals, and 50 gas is pretty significant - if you morph in 4 banelings, it's huge. You are right that you could incorporate banelings into the first push to REALLY all-in, though - especially if your opponent is going pure-ling.

Xana

Denmark128 Posts

August 09 2012 19:45 GMT

#23

In my experience using this build, pure-ling openings don't complete +1/+1 in time.

I'm not sure which people you've been playing, but my +1/1 for lings finish at around 9 mins, just as my lair generally will. +1 melee will even finish earlier. Check the Ultra/Infestor style thread for benchmarks. Also, I'll not be counterattacking from far away, giving you time to block the natural. I'll literally be hanging out outside your base with 20-30ish lings, and the second roaches leave I'll run in.

Even if I arrive too late to get into your base, and your Evoes have too much HP for me to target down in a reasonable time, I've set up the possibility to flank you from behind when you get in range of my spines. Its not to sound negative, but roaches really does suck hardcore vs lings before they get the ability to two-shot instead of three shot. Do you have any replays vs someone who actually plays ling into Infestor into Ultra where this style showcases how to hold not only the counterattacks, but also breaking the front?

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

August 09 2012 21:34 GMT

#24

On August 10 2012 04:45 Xana wrote:

Show nested quote +

This push generally arrives at 9:00-9:30. You would have to have +1+1, lair done, AND a significant enough standing zergling army to threaten my expansion. It's definitely possible (and smart) - just not the way most Zergs play.

Also, if you're only using 20-30 Zerglings to threaten a counter-attack, my reinforcement Zerglings should be enough to hold with the spine and queens while Roaches move into your nat, then I can still hit a timing (slightly delayed) with the Roach/Ling. I'm not saying your style can't beat this timing, it absolutely can, but it's not a build-order loss.

Offhand, I don't have replays against pure-ling infestor into ultralisk but I'll see if I can find some Zerg partners to test it out. We could even play a few, I haven't played against the Infestor/Ling/Ultralisk style nearly enough ^^

lexs

Spain5 Posts

August 09 2012 22:57 GMT

#25

niiiiice guide, i will try next time

Twelve12

Australia268 Posts

August 10 2012 05:07 GMT

#26

I do a really similar build to this if i play another zerg player two times in a row. I think the muta transition i do is not as good as yours and i generally have a lot of problems playing this style against mutas. I seem to do pretty well against other builds though

Also the pictures in the unit compositions tab were made by my girlfriend and the reason the overlord has a balloon is because it was my birthday ^_^

Andromedan

64 Posts

August 10 2012 05:20 GMT

#27

sorry, not sure if this was made clear or i just missed it, but in the original 15p 15g 17h speedling all in, drones were pulled from gas after 100 for speed. is that the case here, or do we bank for roaches, and then just add on the gas at ~42?
is there a difference for the gas timings (pulling drones, not pulling drones) between the aggressive/economic? (again, sorry if i just missed it ><)

Vralaren

Sweden130 Posts

August 10 2012 12:02 GMT

#28

Amazing guide as always

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

August 10 2012 17:49 GMT

#29

On August 10 2012 14:20 Andromedan wrote:
sorry, not sure if this was made clear or i just missed it, but in the original 15p 15g 17h speedling all in, drones were pulled from gas after 100 for speed. is that the case here, or do we bank for roaches, and then just add on the gas at ~42?
is there a difference for the gas timings (pulling drones, not pulling drones) between the aggressive/economic? (again, sorry if i just missed it ><)

Yeah you pull drones out of gas for the speedling all-in, you'd refill around 42/44, correct. Basically when you start droning again, the first 3 you build you'd rally into gas.

Ragnarok_1er

France45 Posts

August 11 2012 06:14 GMT

#30

2 uses of the economic one vs Terran, two wins. As always, Tang all ins don't disappoint :-D

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

August 11 2012 15:44 GMT

#31

On August 11 2012 15:14 Ragnarok_1er wrote:
2 uses of the economic one vs Terran, two wins. As always, Tang all ins don't disappoint :-D

(Or do they?)

Jeece712

France8 Posts

August 16 2012 13:12 GMT

#32

ZvZ is my best MU, and i am suprise to see that a little bit before you created you thread, i imagined a similar push in ZvZ.

I open 15 Hatch then adapt with what i scout ( against Hatch 1st I delay my Pool a lot ( 17/18 ) ), then go to an usual 2 Queen / Baneling Nest for defense and few lings in case of mass ling all in, etc etc ...

I put my evo chamber a little bit before you, take the +1 Attck for Roaches, then put Macro Hatch/Roach Warren/2nd gas and creat many Overlord after 38 drones.

I push with an similar army but i morph all the baneling i can then push on the +1 Attack timing.
I try to put 2 baneling in each mineral line to kill many drone.

If i think i will win i continue producing Roaches/Ling. If the opponent has too many Spine ( only way to hold the push i think ) i take my lair immediatly and put 2nd evo chamber. And try a +2/+1 timing push on 60 drones.

Malgent

10 Posts

August 17 2012 06:02 GMT

#33

Another Tang guide, awesome!

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

August 18 2012 15:23 GMT

#34

On August 16 2012 22:12 Jeece712 wrote:
ZvZ is my best MU, and i am suprise to see that a little bit before you created you thread, i imagined a similar push in ZvZ.

I open 15 Hatch then adapt with what i scout ( against Hatch 1st I delay my Pool a lot ( 17/18 ) ), then go to an usual 2 Queen / Baneling Nest for defense and few lings in case of mass ling all in, etc etc ...

I put my evo chamber a little bit before you, take the +1 Attck for Roaches, then put Macro Hatch/Roach Warren/2nd gas and creat many Overlord after 38 drones.

I push with an similar army but i morph all the baneling i can then push on the +1 Attack timing.
I try to put 2 baneling in each mineral line to kill many drone.

If i think i will win i continue producing Roaches/Ling. If the opponent has too many Spine ( only way to hold the push i think ) i take my lair immediatly and put 2nd evo chamber. And try a +2/+1 timing push on 60 drones.

Coincidently, I used to do a +1 variation of this push as well - it's definitely viable. The only problem is it does delay the attack, which is particularly troublesome against mutalisk builds.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

August 19 2012 23:48 GMT

#35

Interesting that majority of players view this build as all-in, would like to hear that side of the argument. I think it's definitely borderline.

Sketh

United States1 Post

August 20 2012 21:14 GMT

#36

Great build and info to try out!

StatixEx

United Kingdom779 Posts

August 20 2012 21:24 GMT

#37

these guides are really good, seems like you spend a lot of time working this stuff out as it has its little differnces against the stuff u see in streams.

keep it up man, forever favourite!

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

August 23 2012 14:23 GMT

#38

On August 21 2012 06:24 StatixEx wrote:
these guides are really good, seems like you spend a lot of time working this stuff out as it has its little differnces against the stuff u see in streams.

keep it up man, forever favourite!

It's definitely an unorthodox timing, but it's very difficult for opponents to get mutas out in time. Also if they're going roaches, they'll typically be upgrading their +1 (or even +1+1) which cuts into their defence.

Syntaxs

Germany57 Posts

August 23 2012 14:50 GMT

#39

So first off I have to admit, I never followed a single guide by you Tang. But not because I dislike it or they seem bad/tricky in my eyes but because I rather play my aggresive ling style with speed pre banes. Anyway I still want to help you out because there certainly is one thing we share:
The Philosophy of ZvZ, maybe all MU's
So let me say two things,
First: Constant aggresion is awesome
Second: There are no all-ins, just aggresion or not. (Korean philosophy)
I might try the build but just wanted to drop this here along with the question if you are playing on NA or EU.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

August 23 2012 14:55 GMT

#40

I play NA and EU, Syntax - and I agree (with some exceptions) about there not being all-ins.

Syntaxs

Germany57 Posts

August 23 2012 15:02 GMT

#41

Fine pm about Your EU account if you want to play a few games or just talk

Arcanefrost

Belgium1257 Posts

August 23 2012 15:31 GMT

#42

Your style is too agressive for my taste, but your guides are truly amazing. Well done.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

August 24 2012 18:57 GMT

#43

On August 24 2012 00:31 Arcanefrost wrote:
Your style is too agressive for my taste, but your guides are truly amazing. Well done.

Thanks <3

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

September 11 2012 21:42 GMT

#44

I've continued to use this build in Season 8 with great success. The majority of players are either going for an earlier third with roaches, which means I usually don't win the game with the first attack, but I can kill off his third hatchery which puts me ahead - then the follow-up +1/+1 timing with speed generally ends it. Or players will tech up on two bases and go mutalisks, in which case most times I end the game outright with the first attack. There are some more savvy players who anticipate this type of aggression and build the necessary spine/zergling defense to hold without losing drones, but even against this style it's possible to win with a follow-up timing with infestors and/or hydralisks and +1+1 Speed Roaches.

I used to have struggles holding off 2-base baneling all-ins, but after taking the time to optimize my Hatch-Warren-Evo-Evo wall-off positioning, it's become increasingly easy to hold off in time for roaches. Any other timing (Like similar roach builds or roach/ling/baneling builds) get shut down pretty hard by this style as well.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

September 11 2012 21:49 GMT

#45

I've also edited the OP with a more optimized build order for the economic style.

TheOnlyRedViper

Norway20 Posts

October 19 2012 18:28 GMT

#46

Great build and guide! By watching you do this build on your stream I have improved my zvz alot.
Still loose to alot of early speedling all inns tho. Can't seem to get that wall of yours down

Salivanth

Australia1071 Posts

November 02 2012 05:34 GMT

#47

Is it possible to do this build, but instead of walling in vs. ling-baneling all-ins, get a baneling nest as part of your opening, like standard ZvZ? It doesn't seem to cost too much, and allows you to play a more standard game, playing totally normally until you throw down the Roach Warren and macro hatch. (As well as allowing you to put your Roach Warren in a less scoutable position, since you don't need to wall in with it.) The build doesn't seem to be super tight on units like other all-ins...like, there's a massive difference between 7 roaches and 8 roaches, but there's much less of a difference between 24 roaches and 25. You could even morph a handful of banelings with your attack if you did this, to attack lings/crawlers.

ROOTSolO

Norway37 Posts

January 07 2013 00:59 GMT

#48

Sick build! 100% win rate

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 13 2013 08:10 GMT

#49

Have made some minor changes to the "economic" style, but this is still my go-to ZvZ build.

HaVoK12

United States9 Posts

January 17 2013 06:01 GMT

#50

Hi TangSC~

Thanks so much for your builds and tutorials! Rank 1 plat (NA)/high gold (KR) Zerg and sometimes Random player here.

In ZvZ I have used your 15p/15g/17h ling all-in until now, but it's working less and less because of better defense and better executed early pools in the mid- to high-diamond range. A Korean friend said that many on the KR server at the high level use the econ 10 pool into whatever timing attack/build they want to go for because they are safe against early pools and does well vs 15 hatch. So my idea was to use an econ 10 pool into this “roach-ling all-in” build. I have been just winging it until now and have had mixed success. Here is the build I’ve been using:

10/10 Pool
2x drones (1 extractor trick)
11/10 OL
11/18 x3 lings x1 Queen
16/18 x1 ling
17/18 x1 ling
18/18 OL
18/18 x1 Queen (double extractor trick)
18/26+ drones

And then from there it depends on what their build was and how much, if any, damage was dealt.

The games I won were when I came out ahead by killing their 15 hatch or, if they went 14/14, killing 3-5 probes then defending their all-in. The games that I have lost have been when the opponent (with some 14g/14p or other early gas build) defended the 10 pool, we came out more or less even, then they dropped their expansion before me and denied me from taking my expansion because of their slings and blings at my natural, then macroed behind it and got a lead.

My questions are these:
1) Is it possible or realistic to use an econ 10 pool in order to transition into your build?
2) What would be the best way to think about the transition or new build order? For example, after attacking him, should I just build my gas when I have 15 drones (not supply obv, because I have lings and queens), drop my expo at 17 drones, etc., no matter what he does? Or what factors should I take into account when making this transition? I am making branches of this opening… ie, against 15 hatch, 12-16pool with gas, 12-16 pool with fast hatch and late gas, and early pools. Is this the right approach?
3) Have you ever played the econ 10 pool opening yourself? Did you have certain timing attacks in mind when you played it?

Thanks in advance if you take the time to respond^^

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 19 2013 14:49 GMT

#51

On January 17 2013 15:01 HaVoK12 wrote:
Hi TangSC~

Thanks so much for your builds and tutorials! Rank 1 plat (NA)/high gold (KR) Zerg and sometimes Random player here.

In ZvZ I have used your 15p/15g/17h ling all-in until now, but it's working less and less because of better defense and better executed early pools in the mid- to high-diamond range. A Korean friend said that many on the KR server at the high level use the econ 10 pool into whatever timing attack/build they want to go for because they are safe against early pools and does well vs 15 hatch. So my idea was to use an econ 10 pool into this “roach-ling all-in” build. I have been just winging it until now and have had mixed success. Here is the build I’ve been using:

10/10 Pool
2x drones (1 extractor trick)
11/10 OL
11/18 x3 lings x1 Queen
16/18 x1 ling
17/18 x1 ling
18/18 OL
18/18 x1 Queen (double extractor trick)
18/26+ drones

And then from there it depends on what their build was and how much, if any, damage was dealt.

The games I won were when I came out ahead by killing their 15 hatch or, if they went 14/14, killing 3-5 probes then defending their all-in. The games that I have lost have been when the opponent (with some 14g/14p or other early gas build) defended the 10 pool, we came out more or less even, then they dropped their expansion before me and denied me from taking my expansion because of their slings and blings at my natural, then macroed behind it and got a lead.

My questions are these:
1) Is it possible or realistic to use an econ 10 pool in order to transition into your build?
2) What would be the best way to think about the transition or new build order? For example, after attacking him, should I just build my gas when I have 15 drones (not supply obv, because I have lings and queens), drop my expo at 17 drones, etc., no matter what he does? Or what factors should I take into account when making this transition? I am making branches of this opening… ie, against 15 hatch, 12-16pool with gas, 12-16 pool with fast hatch and late gas, and early pools. Is this the right approach?
3) Have you ever played the econ 10 pool opening yourself? Did you have certain timing attacks in mind when you played it?

Thanks in advance if you take the time to respond^^

1) It's definitely realistic to use an econ 10pool, as long as you keep the goal of 38 Drones 3 queens 3 hatcheries 2gas.
2) You'd have to experiment with the gas timings, but what you say seems a reasonable starting point. I can't really say what situational responses you should have after a 10pool econ opening, because it's not a build I've used in ladder.
3) Not since Beta, and things have changed too much for my experience to be relevant. Sorry I can't be more help!

Bansai

Germany1 Post

March 04 2013 20:30 GMT

#52

But how you deal with that eco 10pool with Pool First? I have the feeling every 2nd Zerg do that, and it´s so annoying. I have to cancel my hatch and he get his own in that moment. Sometimes he is able to kill 1-3 drones as well.
First i need lings to get him pulling back, and when i build my Hatchery im so far behind, that i lose every fucking game.

Audio

United States60 Posts

March 05 2013 08:17 GMT

#53

I really think the macro hatch should be at the third.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

March 05 2013 13:12 GMT

#54

On March 05 2013 17:17 Audio wrote:
I really think the macro hatch should be at the third.

Good luck holding a baneling bust if you do that

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

March 06 2013 16:50 GMT

#55

On March 05 2013 05:30 Bansai wrote:
But how you deal with that eco 10pool with Pool First? I have the feeling every 2nd Zerg do that, and it´s so annoying. I have to cancel my hatch and he get his own in that moment. Sometimes he is able to kill 1-3 drones as well.
First i need lings to get him pulling back, and when i build my Hatchery im so far behind, that i lose every fucking game.

I know what you mean, 10pool eco is annoying. You can either cancel your expansion and rebuild it later, or you can try to keep the Lings off of it by pulling Drones (Until your Pool finishes and you can build your own lings). Neither are ideal scenarios, but you can always play a safer opening (15pool/15hatch) or really any pool-first opening and do the Roach/Ling push in the midgame, it'll just delay it a bit.

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