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On August 09 2012 11:56 Xana wrote:
In my experience this kind of build outright dies to the semi-standard Ling/Spine into Infestor play, especially because your roaches have no speed. If I runby with +1/1 slings immediately as you move out I see no way in hell you can both kill me and defend your bases. -Especially since you skip a baneling nest. If you do choose to attack into a spinewall with drones and lings pulled to keep you in place, I just cannot imagine you winning said engagement. +0 attack roaches really suck vs +1/1 speedlings.
So I guess my question boils down to; When you move out and you see the massive runby when you're mid map, how will you respond? Will you attempt to return and salvage what can be saved, or will you attempt to push into what could be an extremely well spined base?
In my experience using this build, pure-ling openings don't complete +1/+1 in time. If the opponent went for a counter-attack, I'd see it with the overlords and complete my wall-in with evo chambers. Perhaps the opponent's speedlings can break through one of the buildings in the meantime, but they'll take a good amount of damage from queens/spines behind the wall - but it should buy me the time needed to get roaches out.
I "could" pull back a bit and play safe, opting to hit a +1/+1 roach speed timing to make sure my opponent never gets a third, but I think his spine-wall defense will be pretty lacking if he has a threatening army out trying to break my natural. It's a strange situation that doesn't occur very often, but it's definitely not an outright build-order loss.
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On August 09 2012 19:14 doggy wrote:
What do you do against 1-1 ling builds?
Dont you think its better to not cut the bane nest? It helps you in multiple ways:
a) you will be able to fend off speedling/ling bling allins a lot more easily
b) you will be able to mix banes into your allin if you scout your opponent having only lings spines and banes
c) you will be able to make a minimum amount of defense at home to be safe of ling counters
Im really interested to get to know why you think this small investment is not worth it. Or do you have to cut every possible corner to make your builds work...?
I prefer the building wall-offs to be my defense against counter attacks and early all-ins. The baneling nest may seem like a small investment, but a drone, 100 minerals, and 50 gas is pretty significant - if you morph in 4 banelings, it's huge. You are right that you could incorporate banelings into the first push to REALLY all-in, though - especially if your opponent is going pure-ling.
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In my experience using this build, pure-ling openings don't complete +1/+1 in time.
I'm not sure which people you've been playing, but my +1/1 for lings finish at around 9 mins, just as my lair generally will. +1 melee will even finish earlier. Check the Ultra/Infestor style thread for benchmarks. Also, I'll not be counterattacking from far away, giving you time to block the natural. I'll literally be hanging out outside your base with 20-30ish lings, and the second roaches leave I'll run in.
Even if I arrive too late to get into your base, and your Evoes have too much HP for me to target down in a reasonable time, I've set up the possibility to flank you from behind when you get in range of my spines. Its not to sound negative, but roaches really does suck hardcore vs lings before they get the ability to two-shot instead of three shot. Do you have any replays vs someone who actually plays ling into Infestor into Ultra where this style showcases how to hold not only the counterattacks, but also breaking the front?
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On August 10 2012 04:45 Xana wrote:Show nested quote +In my experience using this build, pure-ling openings don't complete +1/+1 in time. I'm not sure which people you've been playing, but my +1/1 for lings finish at around 9 mins, just as my lair generally will. +1 melee will even finish earlier. Check the Ultra/Infestor style thread for benchmarks. Also, I'll not be counterattacking from far away, giving you time to block the natural. I'll literally be hanging out outside your base with 20-30ish lings, and the second roaches leave I'll run in. Even if I arrive too late to get into your base, and your Evoes have too much HP for me to target down in a reasonable time, I've set up the possibility to flank you from behind when you get in range of my spines. Its not to sound negative, but roaches really does suck hardcore vs lings before they get the ability to two-shot instead of three shot. Do you have any replays vs someone who actually plays ling into Infestor into Ultra where this style showcases how to hold not only the counterattacks, but also breaking the front?
This push generally arrives at 9:00-9:30. You would have to have +1+1, lair done, AND a significant enough standing zergling army to threaten my expansion. It's definitely possible (and smart) - just not the way most Zergs play.
Also, if you're only using 20-30 Zerglings to threaten a counter-attack, my reinforcement Zerglings should be enough to hold with the spine and queens while Roaches move into your nat, then I can still hit a timing (slightly delayed) with the Roach/Ling. I'm not saying your style can't beat this timing, it absolutely can, but it's not a build-order loss.
Offhand, I don't have replays against pure-ling infestor into ultralisk but I'll see if I can find some Zerg partners to test it out. We could even play a few, I haven't played against the Infestor/Ling/Ultralisk style nearly enough ^^
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niiiiice guide, i will try next time
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I do a really similar build to this if i play another zerg player two times in a row. I think the muta transition i do is not as good as yours and i generally have a lot of problems playing this style against mutas. I seem to do pretty well against other builds though
Also the pictures in the unit compositions tab were made by my girlfriend and the reason the overlord has a balloon is because it was my birthday ^_^
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sorry, not sure if this was made clear or i just missed it, but in the original 15p 15g 17h speedling all in, drones were pulled from gas after 100 for speed. is that the case here, or do we bank for roaches, and then just add on the gas at ~42?
is there a difference for the gas timings (pulling drones, not pulling drones) between the aggressive/economic? (again, sorry if i just missed it ><)
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Amazing guide as always
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On August 10 2012 14:20 Andromedan wrote:
sorry, not sure if this was made clear or i just missed it, but in the original 15p 15g 17h speedling all in, drones were pulled from gas after 100 for speed. is that the case here, or do we bank for roaches, and then just add on the gas at ~42?
is there a difference for the gas timings (pulling drones, not pulling drones) between the aggressive/economic? (again, sorry if i just missed it ><)
Yeah you pull drones out of gas for the speedling all-in, you'd refill around 42/44, correct. Basically when you start droning again, the first 3 you build you'd rally into gas.
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2 uses of the economic one vs Terran, two wins. As always, Tang all ins don't disappoint :-D
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On August 11 2012 15:14 Ragnarok_1er wrote:
2 uses of the economic one vs Terran, two wins. As always, Tang all ins don't disappoint :-D
(Or do they?)
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ZvZ is my best MU, and i am suprise to see that a little bit before you created you thread, i imagined a similar push in ZvZ.
I open 15 Hatch then adapt with what i scout ( against Hatch 1st I delay my Pool a lot ( 17/18 ) ), then go to an usual 2 Queen / Baneling Nest for defense and few lings in case of mass ling all in, etc etc ...
I put my evo chamber a little bit before you, take the +1 Attck for Roaches, then put Macro Hatch/Roach Warren/2nd gas and creat many Overlord after 38 drones.
I push with an similar army but i morph all the baneling i can then push on the +1 Attack timing.
I try to put 2 baneling in each mineral line to kill many drone.
If i think i will win i continue producing Roaches/Ling. If the opponent has too many Spine ( only way to hold the push i think ) i take my lair immediatly and put 2nd evo chamber. And try a +2/+1 timing push on 60 drones.
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Another Tang guide, awesome!
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On August 16 2012 22:12 Jeece712 wrote:
ZvZ is my best MU, and i am suprise to see that a little bit before you created you thread, i imagined a similar push in ZvZ.
I open 15 Hatch then adapt with what i scout ( against Hatch 1st I delay my Pool a lot ( 17/18 ) ), then go to an usual 2 Queen / Baneling Nest for defense and few lings in case of mass ling all in, etc etc ...
I put my evo chamber a little bit before you, take the +1 Attck for Roaches, then put Macro Hatch/Roach Warren/2nd gas and creat many Overlord after 38 drones.
I push with an similar army but i morph all the baneling i can then push on the +1 Attack timing.
I try to put 2 baneling in each mineral line to kill many drone.
If i think i will win i continue producing Roaches/Ling. If the opponent has too many Spine ( only way to hold the push i think ) i take my lair immediatly and put 2nd evo chamber. And try a +2/+1 timing push on 60 drones.
Coincidently, I used to do a +1 variation of this push as well - it's definitely viable. The only problem is it does delay the attack, which is particularly troublesome against mutalisk builds.
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Interesting that majority of players view this build as all-in, would like to hear that side of the argument. I think it's definitely borderline.
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Great build and info to try out!
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these guides are really good, seems like you spend a lot of time working this stuff out as it has its little differnces against the stuff u see in streams.
keep it up man, forever favourite!
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On August 21 2012 06:24 StatixEx wrote:
these guides are really good, seems like you spend a lot of time working this stuff out as it has its little differnces against the stuff u see in streams.
keep it up man, forever favourite!
It's definitely an unorthodox timing, but it's very difficult for opponents to get mutas out in time. Also if they're going roaches, they'll typically be upgrading their +1 (or even +1+1) which cuts into their defence.
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So first off I have to admit, I never followed a single guide by you Tang. But not because I dislike it or they seem bad/tricky in my eyes but because I rather play my aggresive ling style with speed pre banes. Anyway I still want to help you out because there certainly is one thing we share:
The Philosophy of ZvZ, maybe all MU's
So let me say two things,
First: Constant aggresion is awesome
Second: There are no all-ins, just aggresion or not. (Korean philosophy)
I might try the build but just wanted to drop this here along with the question if you are playing on NA or EU.
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I play NA and EU, Syntax - and I agree (with some exceptions) about there not being all-ins.
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EPT
