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On June 22 2012 16:23 dynwar7 wrote:
I have been using this and I won 10x in a row vs Zerg.
HOWEVER....
....
Now I just cannot simply win, because in the guide you say to move out wirh marines early to deny his 3rd. I cannot. He already has ling bling before taking 3rd. If this is the case, what do I do?
Cant believe I cannot find....was winning 10 in a row just a few days ago.. Basically I cannot snipe his 3rd. even without bling, his ling coutn is really high to kill my marines..
I think the main idea of that combat shiled push is to just "screw up the zerg intentions"
He made a third for a clear reason to saturate it, and it'll be harder for him to do so, if he made lings and defence to stop your push, however, as the OP said, eventho he might hold ur push, the idea is still to trade effective as possible.
I have another question to the OP.
I was trading quite good on 10~15 min, till the zerg managed to get infestors out, obivously i m not MKP, but i did minimize his fungels effect with a decent split, but on overall view:
its just nearly immposible to trade well vs infestors with a good upgraded lings to cover them, i did focus fire with marauders but still got fungeled loacked and surrounded by lings. and in the end of the day, the trades became more of a trade of bio for energy (of infestors) then a trade of bio for reasources (banlings/roaches/mutas).
Do you think that mixing 2-3 ghosts can be good? or maybe adding 1 more reactor starport to start being really heavy on medivacs?
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On June 19 2012 15:12 Qibla wrote:
Just played a strange match. Sent my scouting scv to his 3rd after scouting his main. Single gas pool normal fe blah blah.
Sent my first 3 rines to the xel naga. After a few mins no 3rd taken and no lings run to xel naga so I assume all in and put down 4 bunkers. After a few more minutes no all in comes, so I scan his base. He's taken his 3rd now and has raced for infestores. Has about 8-10 infestors out. I go to push out to do some damage and get fungled to death.
How should you go against scouting and countering this strategy?
Do something that QXC does. put a bunker outside of his nat/at his third. Toss a couple marines in there. You'll find out very quickly what his intetions are.
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On June 22 2012 17:35 dohgg wrote:
I have another question to the OP.
I was trading quite good on 10~15 min, till the zerg managed to get infestors out, obivously i m not MKP, but i did minimize his fungels effect with a decent split, but on overall view:
its just nearly immposible to trade well vs infestors with a good upgraded lings to cover them, i did focus fire with marauders but still got fungeled loacked and surrounded by lings. and in the end of the day, the trades became more of a trade of bio for energy (of infestors) then a trade of bio for reasources (banlings/roaches/mutas).
Do you think that mixing 2-3 ghosts can be good? or maybe adding 1 more reactor starport to start being really heavy on medivacs?
Do you have a replay for me?
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The games were played with my friends on peepmode, so u actually need to move forward times x8.. to get to that certain game.. it was 2:30 hours peepmode  ...
Anyway.. would love if u can contact me on eu server once u feel better and can play, i would like to see this build be performed by some1 who already have a solid confidence with that build.
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In the midgame, have you experimented with getting ghosts at all if your sure they are going infestor? Ive kinda started doing that and if you hit all your emp's / snipes then they just die...
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Pure bio works pretty well from what I've tried.
What I've found really seals the deal is a build that I watched mkp do on stream multiple times.
Basically, he does 1 rax fe into a sort of 1/1/1 where he gets blue flame and 4 medivacs with 1/1 infantry. He follows it with a 1/1 timing attack that uses blue flame hellions and the support of 4 medivacs. In 8 games, I have 100% winrate.
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Thanks for the guide. I'm currently working on this build just have a simple question...
~9-10 mins I start to bank minerals (as im getting my first medivacs). This seems like the right time to throw down the 3rd base but you say not to get it until 12 minutes. Also I noticed in one of your replays on Antiga you had excess mineral at the same time but overmade supply depots. Is there any particular reason why you delay this 3rd base or extra rax?
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something maybe not thought about (havent seen it mentioned) is that playing this style in tvz is not only viable and ahead of its time, but also makes you fucking amazing in tvp lategame.
if you can fight t3 zerg effectively with bio you can fight lategame protoss. i like to mix in ghosts because i need to be able to have superb ghost control in tvp might as well practice it in tvz too
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@ Picklebread: No i have not i have played only tvps last days to improve this matchup cause i get like 0 wins in the lategame :/ But some posts here suggest to incorporate them so you should definitly try!
@ Procify: Do you have some replays / vods with the timing where this build goes down? I might try it out 
@ Vies: Yeah that comes if you mess something up in the build and do not play it 100% perfectly. It happens to me also if i am not paying enough attention.
I have switched things up a bit right now for testing purpose which is getting 3 more rax at around 11 min (pause marine production) and then around 12 my 3rd cc while still upgrading etc.
If you produce constantly and do not get supply blocked and upgrade at the same time you should normaly not ahve excessive minerals. If you have though just throw down the cc or rax etc.
So there is no particular reason just bad overall play at that point
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I just found this build quite weak vs 9 min 3rd (safer expand for zerg, after teching). (not only leaving you in the dark for couple of minutes for potentional allin)
The 2 medivcas timings will be stoped with 2 many banes or infestors already, and after taking expo on 12 min -> 15~ min 3rd is up mining.
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On June 26 2012 02:09 Vies wrote:
Thanks for the guide. I'm currently working on this build just have a simple question...
~9-10 mins I start to bank minerals (as im getting my first medivacs). This seems like the right time to throw down the 3rd base but you say not to get it until 12 minutes. Also I noticed in one of your replays on Antiga you had excess mineral at the same time but overmade supply depots. Is there any particular reason why you delay this 3rd base or extra rax?
The earlier you get your third cc the better, if you can afford it at that time without dying to an attack then do it. Its especially important to get it fast with this style because you need enough production in the midgame to effectively trade and if you delay your 3rd until 12+ min it may put you behind if your initial pressure hasn't done enough damage. Most of my TvZ builds revolve around having my 3rd orbital landed at my 3rd around the 10-11 min mark.
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Ok, what do you do if they are bad and you see no 3rd base and a bunch of lings but they never all in you and a late 3rd? What time is it "ok" to push out of your base without being scared to be killed.
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When Medivacs arrive cause you have approximatly 5minutes to just pick up everytime and get out without losing stuff till infestors hit the field.
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Alright guys i am working on an improved version of the build which gives you a faster 3rd, a really more solid way to hold allins (i've tested vs all allins i know and i've hold every single one even without bunkers (build them only once i see the allin coming).
Right now the chance is to only have 2 in gas instead of 3, this gest you a CC at around 7:10 minutes. By this exact time you also put 1 one more into both geysers for a total of 3 and take your 3rd geyser also with 3 scvs.
Take your 4th gas as usual while you get your armory and ebay down.
This allows you to get an earylier wall with your supplydepots, consistently produce stuff out of your buildings and add in ALOT more barrracks really early on when you move out with your medivacs etc.
some kinda "beta" replays for that:
Holding allins:
http://drop.sc/208631
http://drop.sc/208633
http://drop.sc/208634
http://drop.sc/208635
kinda macro:
http://drop.sc/208636
http://drop.sc/208656
Edit:
"Normal game" vs top 8 master
http://drop.sc/208953
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On June 27 2012 07:55 Enemyy wrote:Alright guys i am working on an improved version of the build which gives you a faster 3rd, a really more solid way to hold allins (i've tested vs all allins i know and i've hold every single one even without bunkers (build them only once i see the allin coming). Right now the chance is to only have 2 in gas instead of 3, this gest you a CC at around 7:10 minutes. By this exact time you also put 1 one more into both geysers for a total of 3 and take your 3rd geyser also with 3 scvs. Take your 4th gas as usual while you get your armory and ebay down. This allows you to get an earylier wall with your supplydepots, consistently produce stuff out of your buildings and add in ALOT more barrracks really early on when you move out with your medivacs etc. some kinda "beta" replays for that: Holding allins: http://drop.sc/208631http://drop.sc/208633http://drop.sc/208634http://drop.sc/208635kinda macro: http://drop.sc/208636http://drop.sc/208656Edit: "Normal game" vs top 8 master http://drop.sc/208953
Aw man you kidding me? -_- I have barely got to try your original build and i've made IRL notes with the BO etc and now you make a better build? xD
Btw, how does an earlier third CC make you less vulnerable to all ins? If anything it should make you weaker. And when will you meet top 25 or top 8 masters? Really wanna see replays of you vs zergs who actually know how to play.
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On June 29 2012 22:26 Thylacine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 07:55 Enemyy wrote:Alright guys i am working on an improved version of the build which gives you a faster 3rd, a really more solid way to hold allins (i've tested vs all allins i know and i've hold every single one even without bunkers (build them only once i see the allin coming). Right now the chance is to only have 2 in gas instead of 3, this gest you a CC at around 7:10 minutes. By this exact time you also put 1 one more into both geysers for a total of 3 and take your 3rd geyser also with 3 scvs. Take your 4th gas as usual while you get your armory and ebay down. This allows you to get an earylier wall with your supplydepots, consistently produce stuff out of your buildings and add in ALOT more barrracks really early on when you move out with your medivacs etc. some kinda "beta" replays for that: Holding allins: http://drop.sc/208631http://drop.sc/208633http://drop.sc/208634http://drop.sc/208635kinda macro: http://drop.sc/208636http://drop.sc/208656Edit: "Normal game" vs top 8 master http://drop.sc/208953 Aw man you kidding me? -_- I have barely got to try your original build and i've made IRL notes with the BO etc and now you make a better build? xD Btw, how does an earlier third CC make you less vulnerable to all ins? If anything it should make you weaker. And when will you meet top 25 or top 8 masters? Really wanna see replays of you vs zergs who actually know how to play.
(i helped with the new version)
Because we found out that less 2 workers on gas is a huge impact on your mineral income growth, that it allows you a sick constant production from all your raxs, 2 workers off gas will give you way more then 400 mineral on 7 min to set a 3rd, all the extra minerals will go into production, and also, in a case of allin, can go into setting walls and bunkers.
Another note.
All the gas intentions on that build, are not going into defensive units (Tanks, banshees) but into offensive stuff as upgrades and medivacs, so as a result, having a bit less of gas ratio will actually help you defending aggresion.
Why the build have been changed?
1.We found out that the build have abit of extra income gas and missing alot of mineral income to support 3 rax production. (For example, you'll never have enough minerlas to start +1, by the time ebay is done, if you kept constant production of marines and SCVs, even tho, your gas will be above 100)
2. the 7 min CC, is a great timing, not only it'll be done and landing by the moment your medivacs will be out and u'll start your push, also it'll keep you equal with a zerg 7-9 min 3rd (consider 5 min 3rd will be punished by combat shiled push)
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I makes you less vulnerable to allins cause you have more minerals to wall off again quickly, throw down bunkers etc. you won't need nearly any gas units djuring allins most of the time with bio so it only improves the effectiveness of a hold (e.g. the 6min allin was unstoppable with 3 in gas and 0 bunkers while it is now cause you can instantly wall off again and put down a bunker for the next wave.
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It is possible to go marine tank after the combat shield timing im sure? I was thinking:
Fac makes reac, gives it to port,(normal) THEN fac makes lab and eventually make tanks + siege tank and then i add an extra fac + lab and end up with 2 facs massing tanks?
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How difficult is it to incorporate blue flame hellions into this build? Since you have to build the Factory anyways to get to Medivacs, wouldn't it be interesting to research Blue Flame and then switch it onto a reactor afterwards to start getting some AoE into the composition? They're still very mobile and can definitely help with a swarm of ling bane in the mid-game.
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@ Thylacine i guess it should be no problem, just take 5th and 6th gas with your 3rd. eventually cut back on marine upgrades a bit but that might not even be a necessaty. Just look at the vs top8 master - replay to see a reletavily nicely done bo and try to adjust it yourself.
@ deshoo Definitly! But they eat up money pretty fast and do not scale with upgrades, so even infesting further in them by reseach stuff + addon etc. they will get worst as the game goes on so i personally don't know but yeah it is possible.
You can transition into alot of stuff out of bio play in general and add stuff to it (even thors etc.) kinda personal stage. The gas you have left over makes alot possible.
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EPT
