my name is forsakeNXE, and i play terran around 850 points + rising master level.
After a break of a few weeks due to diablo 3 and some personal reasons I am now back at SC2 and want to bring you a general guide for pure bio play in TvZ.
I am german and have written this guide in german first so please bear with my english, I will be glad to correct grammar or spelling errors so feel free to correct me.
1.1 Why pure Bio in TvZ?
1.1.1 Problems with Marine Tank
So a lot of you definitely play Marine Tank (+ some medivacs) in TvZ and that’s very solid. But it is also very easy to get in a very defensive position so that moveouts become very difficult and slow. Also it can be risky as a surround on unsieged Tanks often means gg.
But even with a good position Zerg can break it quite easily. My observations also got me to a point where I recognized that like 50% of Tanks do only fire two or three volleys before getting overrunned which is kinda inefficient.
Mostly, though, I feared Broodlord-Transtion . As you get to a point where your tankline is in a good position and you finally cleaned out all the creep Broodlords appear and this makes your whole effort quite useless cause you will have to retreat sooner or later. If Zerg is also spot on with dropdefense while moving the broodlords forward you have basically lost the game if there is no major blunder from Zerg.
As I sidenote: I also struggeled getting Zerg to produce a lot of lings early cause rebuilding your army gives zerg so much time for droning etc.
1.1.2 What you do different with Bio
If you play pure bio with medivac support you have a lot of advantages…
... you are much more mobile. ... you force constant Zergling production. ... you can deny more creep. ... your units scale excellent with upgrades. ... you can counter T3 pretty fast and effectively ... you can expand more flexible behind your pushes. ... Macro feels easier cause you only have to produce MMM out of 2 Buildings. ... you have a lot of mapcontrol all the time. ... Scouting is easy cause Zerg has to bring his units to the front. ... Seeing banelings getting uselesss cause you’re split is too good is plain awesome!
But Bio also has disadvantages…
... very Micro & Macro intensive (!). ... Clumping up and getting hit by banelings and/or fungals means gg
1.1.3 Requirements
After reading this it might be tempting to get into Bio play at once but I strongly recommend this only if you are high diamond or master cause you…
a) Have to produce constantly. A long pause in Medivac and or Rax production means that zerg can overrun you easily.
b) Have to upgrade constantly. It is most important as you trade supply all the time and upgrades will make this trade a lot more efficient for you or the Zerg player if you let this slip. Also you should time attacks by the finishing point of your upgrades like 2/2 or 3/3.
c) Have to split constantly, mostly pre-emptively, if you do not have the micro to split half-decent while macroing you won’t have fun with Bio TvZ. You have to split against banelings very nicely as well as against fungals/Infestors.
d) Have to expand behind your aggression constantly. If you do not do this you won’t be able to afford enough production to keep the pressure up and zerg will overrun you eventually. Your third can be delayed quite significantly though (12-13 min).
e) Have to watch your army constantly. Looking in your base to macro can get your bioball fungaled which basically is gg also you have tob e careful about surrounds.
2.0 Gameplay
2.1 Gameplan
You should focus on trading banelings and lings as well as infestors against marines and marauder all the time. Idealy you should have more workers than Zerg has. But to get to this point you have to trade very efficiently and attack a let zerg the freedom to drone hard, if you cannot afford to let him do that. Also splitting is important so that you trade armys in a way that Zerg has not left over much and has to reproduce a lot.
Also you should focus on upgrades and line your timings up with the completion of the upgrades. If you have left 30 seconds on 3/3 wait for it and clear some creep etc. Another goal is to get a very high medivac count so your units are healed through fungal and negate baneling dmg. Also you should definitely use the retreat option they give you while no infestors are on the field.
Constantly producing, expanding and never getting supply blocked is self explanatory. In Short: In Zerg’s Face! – Always!
2.2 Opening and Early Game
2.2.1 Introduction
At the moment i play an opening that MKP did versus Stephano at MLG Spring Championship. But you can transition out of 2rax as well as a marauder hellion timing and of course cc first if you are skilled enough to pull it off.
I think that MKP found a very efficient opening to get fast upgrades, be save early and get medivacs recently to build up pressure very fast.
2.2.2 The Build
I want to apologize that I do not give you food numbers but i do not play after such as every game develops in a different way and it is not reliable to trust those numbers. I will do my best but there are only little I can do. If someone wants to add them please feel free I will be glad to insert them here.
Build: (M = Minerals; G = Gas) @100 M Supply Depot @150 M Barracks @ 100% Rax OC, + 1 Marine Cut Marineproduction @ 400 M Command center (2) @ 100 M Supply Depot, + constant SCV and Marine Production @ 300 Minerals 2x Barracks(2) (3) @ 3 Marines 2x Gas with 2 Guys in each, total of 4 scvs in both gases @ 25 G TL @ Barracks @ 100 G Combat Shield @ Barracks (2)+(3) finished -> Ebay @ 32 Supply, Supply Depot + constant supply depot production @ 100 Gas + 1 Infantery Weapon Attack @ 100 Gas 2 Rectors on Barracks (2)+(3) @ 70% Combat Shield, move out with Marines @ 400 Minerals (around 7:10 Minutes) Command Center (3) + 1 SCV in each gas (total of 6 in both) + start 3rd Gas @ 100 Gas Factory @ 100 Gas Stim @ 100 % Factory Starport and Reactor on Factory @ 10 Minutes Ebay, Armory and 4th Gas @ 100% Starport, constant Medivac Production @ 2 Medivacs -> Push out and take Third @ 10-11 Minutes (4) (5) (6) (7) Barracks @ 100% Armory start + 2 Infantery Weapon Attack -> continous upgrades @ 14-16 Minutes Start 4th Command Center
2.2.3 Explanation
Small Advice at the beginning: If you play that build at master level you need to hit those timings perfectly otherwise you will get crushed. If you hit 30 Seconds to late with your combat shield or / and medivac timing you will be overrunned so keep that in mind.
You open with a 1 rax expo with 1 supplydepot and put down another sd depot after your oc starts scv production and get your second marine after that. You follow this up with 2 rax and 2 gas afterwards with 3 on each gas.
As soon as both rax finished you add a TL at the 3rd rax immediately and get a ebay. As soon as the tech lab is done start combat shield and + 1 Attack as soon as the ebay is done. At around 32 Supply add your 3rd supply depot.
Moveout at 70-80% of Combat Shield (depending on map) with all your marines to the 3rd of Zerg. Start Reactory on the barracks asap as well as your third inbase and the 3rd gas and remember to put one mor scv on both gases in your main. Also start the factory and stim while pushing. Do not forget supply depots and army/scv production.
As soon as you get to the 3rd of zerg combat shield should be finished. Now move behind the minerals and take out as much zerglings as possible and if you can try to get the cancel / kill on the hatchery. Also scouting is important here, more down below. If you kill/deny the hatchery occasionally go in front of zergs base to scan and kill creep and retreat back home, if you get chased back of in a corner and trade efficiently.
Leave one marine at the watchtower when you get a free ride home and one at the 3rd of Zerg to see if he re-expands.
By now you should have +1 Attack done, Stim half way thorugh and the starport almost done which leads us to the midgame.
2.3 The Midgame
Watch your minimap if you can expect an all-in (if he do not retake his third) or if he retake the third and prepare for one or the other.
Around 10:30 your medivacs should hit the field, stim, combat shield and +1 attack should be done and +1 Armor half way through. Build another ebay and armory while you move out with the medivacs take your third, scan ahead to spot for banelings and traps.
Rally your reinforcements to your home and not to your front to minimize loses. Also keep upgrading and production all the time etc. Queue Conc-Shells and rally your medivacs on your existing ones. Start a forth around 14-15 Minutes Minutes or when you can freely afford it which should be around that time.
By then infestors should be out. So its most important to save your medivacs to outheal fungal and minimize dmg from zerg units. Split as best as you can and start trading.
It becomes important to add production, supply depots and medivacs marines and marauder as well as upgrades. Try to line your attacks up with your upgrades if possible for maximum efficiency.
This phase can be very long and should be the point where you can finish zerg of sooner or later. Trade all the time, save your medivacs and expand behind your aggression. If that is not the case we go to the lategame.
2.4 The Lategame
Zerg refuses to die even if you poke and prode all the time and trade as much as possible and now broodlords or ultralisks hit the field? Guess what! You have an answer: Marines and Marauder.
If you see ultralisks you can just slam down 6-7 techlabs while keeping zerg back with drops, pump 2 rounds marauder and see them just disappear in no time.
If you see broodlords stimmed marines (3/3 at this time) are amazingly effective, also you can add on 3-4 starports if needed and drop like crazy due to your insane medivac count. Also make sure to snipe infestors with marauders. Mostly Zerg won’t have enough stuff to back t3 units up effectifly and you should be able to crush this big investment cost efficiently. Also try to drop the hive to rest zergs tech which is pretty easily done with 2 dropships.
Generally speaking if you let a Zerg get 20 corruptors, 15 Broodlords 10 Infestor + Lings and Blings you haven’t been active enough.
3. Scouting
3.1 Introduction
By doing several pushes you can gather intelligence and tell what zerg wants to do. You can even do that without scanning as everything has to be at his front to defend vs your constant pushing. By having that much of a rax production and the ability to throw down techlabs etc. you can react to anything that zerg throws at you.
3.2 3-Marine Poke
Grab your first three marines and move them to a watch tower to see one of two possible options:
a. 2-4 Lings Zergs first scouting lings which means eco focus and no big threat most likely.
b. 6+ Linge 6 lings are the normal "pressure“ response for a 1rax expo but get outmicroed by the amount of marines you have. If you see more than 6 lings retreat and build 2 bunkers.
3.3 Combat Shield Timing
With your combat shield timing you can run into 3 different events:
a. Roaches From time to time zerg goes roach to play against bio. This is best case scenario for us. Just throw down one or two more barracks depending on the amount of roaches you see and pump marauders, you always have the option to produce marines if he goes back to lings keep that in mind!
b. Mass lings This means most likely that you get all-in'd soon. Immediately retreat and throw down 3-4 bunker if you see no 3rd taken by that time. If you are not able to facecheck use a scan. If there is third base these lings are most likely a over reaction to your first moveout. If there is an all-in to come build 4+ bunkers behind your wall pre split your marines and start producing marauders to put them in front to take baneling hits. Fill your bunker with 1 or 4 marines as you like and pull scvs to rebuild the wall and repair. Close gaps in your wall asap and never stop producing. Once Medivacs are out you should be save. Also you can build a tech lab on the factory and try getting out a tank which I would not really recommend as siege is far away.
Expand afterwards, gather your army and maybe wait for some upgrades to move out and finish the job.
Keep in mind that you most likely do not have stim but combat shield (which means marines take 2 baneling hits) so pre split your marines.
c. Few lings and an expansion Zerg has droned very hard according to the current metagame and not produced mutch units. You should be able to do huge dmg with you combatshield push if you abuse terrain. If you think you can take out his third do it!
3.4 Medivac Push
You can encounter one of 4 possible events:
a. Mass & only Ling Stop marauder production and add more rax. Also build a techlab at the factory, start blue flame and add hellions later. Dropping is relatively effective but be aware that marines get exponationally better so delay your push expand and mass up marines. Once you get a good number move out and start trading.
b. Roaches You should have scouted roaches earlier and have no problems. Just be aware if the switch to lings is coming and switch to more marines by then. Also look at the upgrades on the roaches to see if it he wants to stay on roaches or not. Add more or less marauder depending on the roach count.
c. Mutalisks Likely scenario. Zerg will invest a lot of gas into mutalisks and won’t have enough to get a good number of banelings and infestors to stop you efficiently keep pressuring non stop to force mutas into a fight, build a few turrets in your mineral line and likely flight passes (like 5 at most at all) and win by keeping up the pressure.
d. (Infestor) Baneling Ling This is by far the most effective combination to play versus bio. Stay on one rax with tl and add another techlab once infestors are out. Always presplit even if you do not see the zerg swarm yet, snipe infestors with marauders and get marauders in front to absorb baneling hits. Split your marines behind that and try not to stack up your medivacs on your army to avoid fungals on them. If there are no infestors yet use the free retreat option that medivacs give you. Do never ever fight in choke points or clump up cause one fungal with baneling hits at this point can mean instant gg. From there on zerg should be forced to show you everything in front of your army in order to defend so you can react quickly enough.
4. Units and Tasks
4.1 Marine Cheap and only anti-air unit except of vikings. It is most important that the most dps comes from these little bad guys so you need A LOT of them in order to kill zerglings and banelings. Always prioritise them and do never stop producing them. The better the upgrades the better the marines, 3/3 Marines are quite good Splitting is really important here, too!
4.2 Marauder Marauder have a lot of HP and cost gas and are used to slow units while kitting which becomes less important the longer the match goes on. It is important that marauders are in front of the marines to absorb baneling hits. Also you should use small marauder squads to take out Infestors very fast (4-5 hits -> kill). This is really important especially in late game scenarios to take away the effectiveness of ultralisks and broodlords.
4.3 Medivacs Our most important unit! The higher the medivac count the more our bio stays alive. It heals up fungals so they do not kill our units anymore and make baneling splash weaker due to healing too. Your goal should be to have at least 20-25 medivacs. Als they make Marauders pretty hard to take down. If you lose a huge chunk consider getting a second starport to ramp the production of these up again. That should not be needed if you constantly produce out of one starport.
4.4 Vikings Normaly you should not build vikings cause you need those medivacs alot. But if you traded badly and will face blroodlords it might be no bad idea to throw down a few starports to get rid of them. But consider that you are behind in upgrades by a lot which is the same for tanks etc. so I recommend getting a lot of medivacs instead and drop like crazy.
5.0 Tips and notes
A few small tips and things to think about:
# Naked Barracks – Building Addons costs time in which you cannot produce marines and makes switching to a lot of techlab barracks for ultralisks difficult. So I recommend to not build them and get naked rax instead. Also you can use them to wall of certain parts of the map, too.
# Marauder : Marine Ratio – Do always only get one techlab barracks and only get a second one for infestors and maybe more only in case of roaches, marines are really more important than marauders!
# Tanks & Mech – not useful due to the lack of upgrades one or two defensive tanks or some hellions for massling strats can be good but i’d still recommend to stick to bio.
# Drop play: yes or no? It depends! You can do both and it is definitly viable. I do not do it cause i think the main point is to trade army over and over again to force more army instead of tech and drones. The most army is killed by huge engagements and there a medivac with 8 marines can turn the tide! Also dropping takes even more apm away from you then you have to use anyway. If you have spare apm feel free to do it but I would recommend to not do it.
# Focus Strucure - If you drop really focus on those evolution chambers to get ahead in upgrades.
# Expansion Timings: Expand rapidly! Take your third around 10 Minutes with your push, get a 4th around 15 Minutes and keep on expanding very rapidly around the map. Also add alot of Barracks if you float minerals.
6.0 Closing words
Wow, that was alot more than I intended to write but I really hope it helps you and I am very greatful for corrections of all sort as well as tips and additions and of course for some positive responses. I will try to keep it updated as much as possible.
07-08-2012 - Added another replay 06-08-2012 - Adjusted Build Order for better readability, added bunch of master replays, adjusted build order explanation 02-07-2012 - added new build order + new replays 16-06-2012 - Walloff under tips, +2 Reps 13-06-2012 - created the guide
(c) by me =) do not copy this please! You may link to it but never copy it anywhere without my permission!
Used to do the same thing pretty often when I promoted to masters. But I must say it's much harder to pull off when you're playing against zergs that know what they're doing. But it's the most fun style, though!
I'm glad I'm not the only one getting frustrated with the general ineffectiveness of tanks in this matchup. I feel like unless you're taking advantage of some terrain feature (high ground, choke, etc.) tanks simply aren't cost-efficient and greatly slow down your pushes in a matchup where you need to be attacking constantly to keep the zerg player spending larva on zerglings rather than better units.
So I love the idea of all-bio TvZ. It's true that splitting is extremely important when playing bio, but I still think on the whole bio is easier than marine-tank micro-wise. After all, you still have to split with marine tank, and you also have to worry about siegeing at the right time, leapfrogging, etc, which can get very APM intensive when you're trying to hit a timing quickly.
Holy shit this is amazing, I was just sad that I didn't know how to play bio tvz
"If you kill/denie the hatchery occasionally go in front of zergs base to scan and kill creep and retreat back home, if you get chased back of in a croner and trade efficiently." *deny *corner
What do you think about late game MMM raven when the BL tech comes out? I have a very hard time, even though marines are supposed to be great against BL. thanks again!
On June 13 2012 12:22 9-BiT wrote: Holy shit this is amazing, I was just sad that I didn't know how to play bio tvz
"If you kill/denie the hatchery occasionally go in front of zergs base to scan and kill creep and retreat back home, if you get chased back of in a croner and trade efficiently." *deny *corner
What do you think about late game MMM raven when the BL tech comes out? I have a very hard time, even though marines are supposed to be great against BL. thanks again!
You can definitely add 2-3 starports with techlabs and go for Ravens if you scout a Hive coming up. You have to make sure that you get some Ravens before he has BL tech out, since he can mass produce it so quickly if he has the money.
the only time bio fails me is when i forget to have my army split. One good fungal = gg so always make sure to have ur army split even if its just sitting around while you are macroing
On June 13 2012 10:41 Enemyy wrote: 1.0 Introduction If Zerg is also spot on with dropdefense while moving the bloords forward you have basically lost the game if t
On June 13 2012 10:41 Enemyy wrote: 1.0 Introduction If Zerg is also spot on with dropdefense while moving the bloords forward you have basically lost the game if t
Seriously though, Im thinking back to the time when I was asking if bio only was viable and getting yelled at by people because "Terran = siege tank, siege tank = terran" "If you dont use siege tanks you should just switch race" "Seriously? Just use siege tanks" etc etc etc and from fucking teamliquid nonetheless too. Really glad to see its poking its head out more and more now, although I must say bio only is super tiring and shouldnt be used over and over game after game X_X unless you are some serious gamer
I think in the current metagame bio is a valid option in ZvT, because it is strong vs the typical infestor-based compositions. That is because infestors can not kill medivacs efficiently an you build up a huge flock of medivacs overtime. As the fights become smaller every marine has it`s own medivac, resulting in very efficient trades for the terran. I think the weakness of this composition is the old muta/ling/bane army. This is because mutas can clean up the medivacs everytime and deny any drops. As long as the zerg keeps up with the upgrades and terran does not have insane splitting, ling/bane should beat pure bio anytime.
it s a solid style in early and mid-game however it fails in late game bec ultra fungal banel overpower it too easily. Tried to play several times but as soos as T3 unit appears it fails. I prefer going for Byunprime(Ghostkingprime) style: he has composition of marine, marad, bf hellion, thor and medv
On June 13 2012 17:20 TRpredator wrote: it s a solid style in early and mid-game however it fails in late game bec ultra fungal banel overpower it too easily. Tried to play several times but as soos as T3 unit appears it fails. I prefer going for Byunprime(Ghostkingprime) style: he has composition of marine, marad, bf hellion, thor and medv
Dawg. What style from terran doesnt get overpowered by fungal ultra broodlord easily?. If you are saying ultra bane infestor style mmm with ghosts eat it hard. Infestors = no real map control and relies heavily on lings to control the map, which means by the time the mother fucker has ultras out, you should have at least 10 rax to supply and dump him. 3/3 Marine marauders with good split and control shits all over ultra bane infestor, and any amount of good ghost play means its just a fricken meat wall now that you can kite and shoot down. In fact MMM became useful BECAUSE of infestors style. Its the broodlords thats hard to counter, not the ultras
When I see this build i'm so happy, because I can 2-3 base ling bane all in for the free win. Its hard to split marines, marauders and workers in a space constricted base at the same time. Obviously its possible to stop the bane all in......but in diamond no one seems to.
I have fixed those typing errors thanks alot for pointing them out - dat bloord! :D
Also i have added a link to the vod of the mkp vs stephano game @ mlg spring championship. I might look into older mkp games to see if he did this build at another time ( i have watched quite a view but do not remember seeing it before).
Also i will add anchors soon.
About the Raven Transition: It is definitly a good possibility but the better the zerg the more you have to trade armywise and the more minerals you need. You almost never sit on 200 supply for a long time to build up those minerals and if you do add more barracks But if you add some more gases you should be able to stockpile alot very quickly and can transition into Raven. If anyone have a nice replay to show this transition out of pure bio feel free to post it =)
About t3 once more: Ultralisks are really no problem. Of course they eat your bio if you get fungaled while you are clumped up but that is no different than getting baneling instead in the midgame. All about preemptive splitting and some kitting to negate those fungals. As mentioned before due to the nacked rax you can almost instantly switch to massive marauder production to kill ultras soo quickly
Broodlords are a bigger problem but none to worry about that much cause normally zerg lacks the units to back them up. Also you can drop every base instantly with filled medivacs and try to kill the greater spire, too where marauder shine alot! Also you are much more efficent with dropping cause you upgrade fast and tanks are not that helpful in that scenario as well. Finally you can also instantly throw down some starports and start crazy viking production cause you should be in the lead be then.
If Zerg gets a huge army with proper backup you haven't been agressive and active enough on the map and did not deny bases properly.
If you have any questions etc. let me know
Edit:
On June 13 2012 18:36 maddogmcgee wrote: When I see this build i'm so happy, because I can 2-3 base ling bane all in for the free win. Its hard to split marines, marauders and workers in a space constricted base at the same time. Obviously its possible to stop the bane all in......but in diamond no one seems to.
I feel like you are right about the effectivness auf baneling allins but i had no chance to practice against that (i feel like the one i have the replay of is executed badly and of course scouted. Will be very hard but doable i think.
I have fixed those typiny errors thanks alot for pointing them out - dat bloord! :D
Also i have added a link to the vod of the mkp vs stephano game @ mlg spring championship. I might look into older mkp games to see if he did this build at another time ( i have watched quite a view but do not remember seeing it before).
Also i will add anchors soon.
About the Raven Transition: It is definitly a good possibility but the better the zerg the more you have to trade armywhise and the more minerals you need. You almost never sit on 200 supply for a long time to build up those minerals and if you do add more barracks But if you add some more gases you should be able to stockpile alot very quickly and can transition into Raven. If anyone have a nice replay to show this transition out of pure bio feel free to post it =)
About t3 once more: Ultralisks are really no problem. Of course they eat your bio if you get fungaled while you are cumped up but that is no different than getting baneling instead in the midgame. All about preemptive splitting and some kitting to negate those fungals. As mentioned before due to the nacked rax you can almost instantly switch to massive marauder production to kill ultras soo quickly
Broodlords are a bigger problem but none to worry about that much cause normally zerg lacks the units to back them up. Also you can drop everybase instantly with filled medivacs and try to kill the greater spire, too where marauder shine alot! Also you are much more efficent with dropping cause you upgrade fast and tanks are not that helpful in that scenario as well. Finally you can also instantly throw down some starports and start crazy viking production cause you should be in the lead be then.
If Zerg gets a huge army with proper backup you haven't been agressive and active enough on the map and did not deny bases properly.
On June 13 2012 18:36 maddogmcgee wrote: When I see this build i'm so happy, because I can 2-3 base ling bane all in for the free win. Its hard to split marines, marauders and workers in a space constricted base at the same time. Obviously its possible to stop the bane all in......but in diamond no one seems to.
I feel like you are right about the effectivness auf baneling allins but i had no chance to practice against that (i feel like the one i have the replay of is executed badly and of course scouted. Will be very hard but doable i think.
My experience is mostly against Roach baneling allins - so Im not sure on the difference. Marauders shit on this so bad :/
I do imagine that without hellions or some kind of AoE itll be rather hard to hold off a 2-3 base baneling allin, but its not like we just let them get there. Its not a turtle style, bio.
I don't agree with your blord transition management. Even though pure bio is a solid strategy, there is no reason why the zerg should always be behind when they come out. You should try to have more eco than zerg player with this style and try to deny 4th for as long as you can. But infestor + blord just own marines really badly. The lack of upgraded thor should be a real problem in the late game if you don't manage to get a big lead in the middle game
I agree that Broodlords transition can be a big problem like written before but you definitly will and shoud have 4 bases up and runing by the time broodlords hit the field in a reasonable amount and by having a ton of barracks up and trading infestors against marauders you will outproduce him.
I can be wrong, who cannot? =) But i never encounterd broodlord-problems as i normaly get ahead in the midgame. Even if you cannot deny Broodlords from hitting the field and have not gotten that far ahead army-traind wise you still should be able to establish 4 bases no problem and can throw down a ton of starports and produce 6+ vikings at once (swap 2 reactor rax out and build starports there). As you do not have to retreat against a small amount of broodlords cause marauder can be healed quite effectivly vs broodlings and you have 0 splash dmg on your own units from tanks you can hold the army in position for a really long time and only move very slightly. As you also should have mapcontrol you can start slowing this push down at least from the middle of the map, most likely much earlier as you do not have to immediatly retreat and that gives you time for either dropping, transitioning to Vikings or transitioning to ravens.
Therefore it never became a problem for me. As long as i did not forget to build enough barracks and sat there with 2k overmins and a small army. THEN it's most definitly a problem.
But if i am wrong we can discuss this alot, that's why i posted the guide in public so that everyone can share their thoughts on that i am open for feedback and thoughts about anything you want =)
There is a reason behind staying on two base so long, which he is not also he is adding more barracks way too soon normaly you cannot afford that. Even though he may have better macro than me in general he does not have a good build and gameplan and no constant agression. You cannot always stay home mass up an army and only then moveout etc. So that is a good example of how not to play bio in tvz.
Also he has only 6 medivacs after 16 minuets, even i got supplyblocked once in the replay i just watched i had 6 by 12 minutes. etc.
Seriously though, Im thinking back to the time when I was asking if bio only was viable and getting yelled at by people because "Terran = siege tank, siege tank = terran" "If you dont use siege tanks you should just switch race" "Seriously? Just use siege tanks" etc etc etc and from fucking teamliquid nonetheless too. Really glad to see its poking its head out more and more now, although I must say bio only is super tiring and shouldnt be used over and over game after game X_X unless you are some serious gamer
Thing is, with the buff to queens, hellions lost a lot of their viability and therefore the early factory. Then you have the fact zerg can get faster to their lategame tech(while not really needing to make any meaningful amount of gas units before hand, read: infestors), which makes tanks pretty... obsolete. Their time to shine was mostly in the midgame, but with a free 3rd for the zerg, the game kind of skips the midgame.
I used to bio a while back, and it has always been strong, but like the OP says, it's very very micro intensive(as you can't skip a beat on micro while macroing) and I switched back into tanks since it was simply a lot easier and rewarding. + Show Spoiler +
Bio is imo just all about outplaying your opponent, and since that's what TvZ has come down to, well might aswell play a style that offers the best way to punish the zergs mistakes.
Thanks OP, have been looking for a more solid bio build, will def. give this a shot.
Yeah I have a build that is just Bio TvZ and it operates pretty well at high levels. Considering marauders function pretty well to buffer damage, and good micro can negate mass banelings, Bio is a decent option
I really dont think this build is good if zerg catches win that you will never add tanks. He can just spend all his gas on infestors/banes and only get hive for upgrades. That leaves zerg with a huge gas surplus that makes it so that he can trade infinately aslong as he has a solid drone count. I would be worried if I faced MKP doing this with his micro but the regular master player I've had no trouble destroying this build against.
On June 14 2012 00:48 zmansman17 wrote: Yeah I have a build that is just Bio TvZ and it operates pretty well at high levels. Considering marauders function pretty well to buffer damage, and good micro can negate mass banelings, Bio is a decent option
Good micro can negate mass banelings but not bane/infestor.
On June 14 2012 04:18 jorder247 wrote: How do you defend a 7 minute 2 base baneling all in with this? I constantly lose to that strategy every game.
I can only guess cause i have not come across one but in general you should smell something fishy is going on by the time you move out with your combatshield timing and be able to throw down some bunkers. I guess you must get a bit lucky in scouting it but as you normaly should have control over the watchtower(s) and if Zerg is not careful and you see the lings etc. you can immediatly respons. What you could add (what i will do as well), is a patroulling marine/scvs a bit in front of your base once you lose tower control.
Also always send your initial scouting scv if it's a map with more than 2 spawn possibilities to the third of Zerg and hide it there to see if it goes down. If you see none by time you want to move out with the marines thwrow down 3 bunkers and send one unit to scout in front of your base.
This is all i can say about that cause i did not came across that one and generally didn't get allined.
What i can also tell by the way marineking handels a crisis vs stephano: a) if you see the initial force and it is not very big pull some scvs and move out agressivly to kill the banelings before they are morphed (be certain otherwise you will lose your marines and the game!)
b) Do not build medivacs (cause the ressources should be tight and you should not be able to afford them if you go for around 4 bunkers and an early wall) instead only marines, marauder and scvs.
Also i would suggest to throw down 2 more barracks immeditaly if you are 100% certain of an allin to a) help wallin off and b) produce more units.
Everything else on how to hold an allin is pretty commen known i guess.
Hope that helps, i will provide an update once i come across that allin and be able to practice it to the point where i can hold.
A question (mostly out of ignorance about playing Terran) - surely you aren't spending THAT much gas on a pure bio army? Most of it goes into medivacs and ghosts (if you get them) a little bit in marauders and vikings. So you should have a big gas bank by the time they get brood lords out.
So why not do a factory/starport swap and get some ravens with hunter seeker missiles as well as the usual viking production? Hunter seeker missiles help vikings fight corruptors and do massive splash against broods, as they can't (shockingly) run away.
Anyway, on to the main point I wanted to raise, quoted earlier today from Idra's stream: "pure bio is bad. [you] should have added tanks after like 4 hellions while taking a 3rd."
- said after he crushed a pure bio Terran with ultra infestor.
Something to take into consideration, considering he is a pro Zerg and all.
On June 14 2012 07:44 Larkin wrote: A question (mostly out of ignorance about playing Terran) - surely you aren't spending THAT much gas on a pure bio army? Most of it goes into medivacs and ghosts (if you get them) a little bit in marauders and vikings. So you should have a big gas bank by the time they get brood lords out.
So why not do a factory/starport swap and get some ravens with hunter seeker missiles as well as the usual viking production? Hunter seeker missiles help vikings fight corruptors and do massive splash against broods, as they can't (shockingly) run away.
Hey!
The main reason is that you can mine more minerals if you do not mine extra gas (usually 4 gas are enough to carrier you through the whole midgame as long as you only produce upgrade, medivacs and one marauder) you have to add 1-2 gas if you switch to more marauders. As i want to keep the pressure up i think the more marines the better as Raven take out alot of marines and medivacs ressource wise and you need another starport as you really need those double medivacs production nonstop.
So i guess it depends on how good you are if you are REALLY REALLY good at your micro so you do not need those marines that ravens/starports/vikings/etc. take away from you ressource-wise you can do it, i couln't afford it - only if i had been far ahead but i would not risk to get caught in a transition etc.
Also you need ofc more apm to micro everything perfectly as ravens are aweful on there own.
If you got those extra apm and want to invest in those units go ahead! Possible it is yoda!
Anyway, on to the main point I wanted to raise, quoted earlier today from Idra's stream: "pure bio is bad. [you] should have added tanks after like 4 hellions while taking a 3rd."
- said after he crushed a pure bio Terran with ultra infestor.
Something to take into consideration, considering he is a pro Zerg and all.
I have talked about that a few posts towards the top, the terran did not play with a solid gameplan and build also he put himself in a very defensive position by getting a fast 3rd so he was not able to pressure idra anytime and had low medivac count etc. it's not how i suggested to play bio in tvz. You can read the post above if you want.
Glad you think about some transition and stuff, thanks for that
I just played 3 straight games against this...annoying in the extreme to say the least. Good guide...I really feel that bio is the best way to approach the TvZ matchup (as a Zerg).
dude just look at his splits... two of the 3 fungels still hit FULL marine clumps, the guy didn't pre split and he could've done a lot more harass all game. Just because one person fails at it because they're new at doing it doesn't mean that the strat is bad. Idra says EVERYTHING is bad, so using his opinion on something isn't even a good argument. There are a lot of factors that could've been going on for the other player. The other player said that idra was "so good" implying that idra is probably one of the best zergs that the guy has played against, and if you're playing against better people you're going to improve but he hasn't improved to the point where it was able to let him win. It's already been stated in the OP how if you don't presplit or don't have the apm to do it you're going to lose. I'm pretty sure that guy caught the end of the fight and didn't use a scan to see where the army was in that first engagement where it actually mattered if he won or lost it. If he won it that fourth to the far right dies and he has the potential to drop the base at the bottom left corner and then move his units from the fourth that he just killed on the right hand side to the main. That game could've been totally different, and I didn't even see the guys upgrades.
TL:DR Just because someone is bad with a strat doesn't mean the strategy itself is bad.
There is a little update esp. on how to wall off. You can also put a Bunker into the choke if you suspect a bust and then build up 3 other bunkers behind that to be safe against nearly all ins i can think about right now. Just delay your factory and starport tech long enough to pump units while still getting up thos bunkers and IMMEDITALY replace fallen structers at the front. I have to test it a bit more but seems pretty stable will update at a later point in time where i go over this in detail.
Edit: vs allins (cut combat shield + factory if it is really early like this, also you can get those bunkers up around 5:20-5-30 and not as late as i did in this screenshot
but I would also add that it might be a good idea to try this if you just want to improve (like me :D), it will improve your macro, micro and especially multitasking no end, you just have to be prepared to lose at first
everyone get stomped everytime when playing pure-bio. mkp owns with pure bio. That means that pure-bio is greate! ... It's like Nestea wining 4631298576 gsls in a row when you had like no good map in map pools..
All you need vs pure bio, is to stay lair tech with hive tech units + hive tech upgrades. All.
I've been playing with pure bio for a while, mid master terran over in KR, and it's dangerous. You basically have to play it like you're playing vs a protoss that starts with zealot charge (if you understand what that means). Basically you have to rely on you being smarter than your opponent and hitting key timings that are very sketchy. Especially with the queen buff, the amount of creep in your way gives zerg so much time to prepare for these bio assaults.
It is quite a viable strategy however, but it's the most effective if you go 14cc since you will be on 2 base for longer than you would if you had tanks to help defend.
Early pressure you want to stick with frontal assaults to drill the zerg down, but right before the mid game hits you want to start dropping chaotically or you will soon be out macro'd to a three base zerg.
Such a well written guide, I've been playing this style recently with mixed sucess - it's extremely unforgiving that if you mess up an engagement or didn't micro well enough you can die so easily, but if you do micro well enough it seems so powerful.
On June 17 2012 07:42 Strykerz wrote: I've been playing with pure bio for a while, mid master terran over in KR, and it's dangerous. You basically have to play it like you're playing vs a protoss that starts with zealot charge (if you understand what that means). Basically you have to rely on you being smarter than your opponent and hitting key timings that are very sketchy. Especially with the queen buff, the amount of creep in your way gives zerg so much time to prepare for these bio assaults.
It is quite a viable strategy however, but it's the most effective if you go 14cc since you will be on 2 base for longer than you would if you had tanks to help defend.
Early pressure you want to stick with frontal assaults to drill the zerg down, but right before the mid game hits you want to start dropping chaotically or you will soon be out macro'd to a three base zerg.
I agree, typically I try to get a PF at my 3rd while I do a medivac timing, otherwise it's very hard to secure bases with bio and counter attacks are always a huge issue.
I maintain the idea that Pure Bio is still an aggressive variant on Bio-Mech (marine/tank and marine/thor). That being said, we've seen pros skew more towards the bio side of things ever since the Stephano double ups style started happening: delaying tanks, getting early medivacs, getting double ups, taking faster 3rds, etc. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THE TANK IS USELESS, IT MEANS THE PREVIOUS TANK TIMINGS ARE OUTDATED.
I think this guide is an excellent way to open and certainly covers all the specifics of opening in an MMM style, but the explanation of the "lategame" is flat and weak. I'm convinced that Pure Bio covers only early- to mid-game or a late-game in which is zerg is really battered down.
Generally speaking if you let a Zerg get 20 corruptors, 15 Broodlords 10 Infestor + Lings and Blings you haven’t been active enough.
I agree...you should have essentially won the midgame with Bio if you're doing it correctly. But WHAT IF you get into a situation like this? WHAT IF the zerg somehow makes it to the late game effectively using good trades, counterattacks, etc? Pure Bio has no answer other than "you should have beat them in the midgame" and that's weak. That's why I 100% believe that tanks/thors are the necessary additions LATER in the game. And that's why I call Pure Bio a subgroup of Bio-Mech.
IdrA, mediocre NA zerg and great authority on ZvT. Of course, the last Terran he beat was Domorin (2-1), before going 0-4 to MorroW, 0-2 to STX, 0-2 to SeleCT, 0-2 to Dream, 0-2 to Thorzain, and (you guessed it) 0-2 to DeMusliM.
1. You're appealing to authority. 2. IdrA is hardly even such an authority. 3. This was a random comment from his stream where he does little but talk bs anyway, as I'm sure he's aware.
As for the topic, I agree (mostly) with the poster above me. I don't see why it's so important that you go completely bio throughout. Surely there are many situations where a transition to mmm/tank is preferable. Why go bio anyway, just to prove that it's viable? Frankly, I would love to see more strategies that diverge depending on your opponent's moves. I can see that "advertising" it as pure bio has a certain charm, but I do truly believe this can be improved by considering if, when and how tank transitions should be done. Also, the late-game as described by you is not in any way viable: unless zerg is already far behind or completely botches his fungals, MMM should never beat infestor brood lord. MMM Raven Viking just might, but fungals will still be a problem, of course.
There is a late-game bio-focused followup I've been curious about where you start using nukes and add a handful of BC's, if you want to try that sometime. The BC's act like gigantic point defense drones for the corruptors and make the vikings more useful while the nukes replace drops.
I agree that my way going about the lategame is by no means optimal and implies, as mentioned several times, that zerg is already behind. That has by all means a very high chance of beeing the case cause you force almost always lings and force the zerg to make constantly the difficult decision to either spend his gas on teching, upgrading, infestors or banelings and one miss-judgment can easily mean defeat in the next minute.
I have not entered a lategame scenario where i got stuck with Bio and overrunned by t3 afterwards, i almost always lost due to really, really bad engagements and miss micro. That's also mentioned above as it is very unforgiving to play bio for you as terran but like i wrote here it's the same for zerg, so the player with less mistakes will most likely win.
So back to the lategame: As i have not come into this situation often i would really like to see a discussion about this and i will GLADLY add some options into the guide when going lategame versus zerg. I think about it like this:
Lategame vs Z: a) Raven Transition b) Thor / Viking c) Mech (-> is this even viable cause you are at 0/0 most likely?)
So if you have experiences with these transitions, use them often yourself and could provide some insight on how you do them what is important and what's difficult and how you prevent getting overrunned while techswitching away from bio etc. PLEASE share them with us, i'll be glad to add them and looking forward to a constructive discussion about that =)
Disclaimer: The majority of my post is theory,(except for the part about Thors) you are free to ignore it.
To the above post, I use something somewhat similar to Bio; Marine/Marauder/Thor/Hellion/Medivac, and it's quite similar to Bio in large engagements, but the composition has the power and sturdiness of the Thor and the AoE of the Hellion to support the high DPS of Marine/Marauder, giving it staying power in the late-game while still being able to be mobile as you do not need extremely good positioning using Siege Tanks in order to have a chance against Zerglings, Ultralisks, and Infestors. You can combine this with Ravens, --and maybe a few Vikings or BC's to take Corruptor fire-- in the late-game against Broodlord/Corruptor/Infestor.
Unfortunately I don't have much experience against Broodlords and I promptly get owned by them in all instances due to late Ravens, but against Ultralisks I find Thors to be extremely good, and in other games where I used to go Bio Mech I went for Thor/Marine against Broodlord/Infestor, and with a really good concave you can definitely beat that with Marine/Marauder/Thor so long as you focus down the Broodlords with your Thors and a-move everything else to kill things that end with "ling".
As for transitioning, I'd say around the time you take your 7th and 8th gasses add 2-3 factories and start double/triple Thor production as well as double armory for upgrades, since you badly need to catch up to the Zerg. In the mean time you can use drops to keep him pinned as long as possible, or just throw up 2-3 bunkers.
I heard aLive played bio TvZ in GSTL with success, so I'm intrigued. However I'm not sure how this style could ever deal with infestors well enough, since without tank focus fire killing infestors becomes super super hard. I feel Infestors get just way too cost effective even against good splitting. (fungal and pull the infestors back once zerglings/ultras die = only energy lost)
Hi, im a high masters terran, ive been messing around with bio as well for a long time, i feel that one thing you are missing, which i feel is essential to that style of play is ghosts. Especially once hive tech is out the main problem isn't really the broodlords or the ultralisks themselves, its how they combo with infestors, if you try to stim marines in to kill broods and the zerg plops down some fungles to keep you back, your army will just melt. Targeting the infestors with marauders is more of an opportunistic thing i have found, if they are out of position you can snipe a few but you can't really rely on that to work all of the time. Now if you can emp those infestors then stim in, you are good to go. Also having the barracks infrastructure up makes it fairly easy to transition into a mass nuke late game if you are interested in that kind of thing.
On June 18 2012 07:22 Micromancer wrote: Hi, im a high masters terran, ive been messing around with bio as well for a long time, i feel that one thing you are missing, which i feel is essential to that style of play is ghosts. Especially once hive tech is out the main problem isn't really the broodlords or the ultralisks themselves, its how they combo with infestors, if you try to stim marines in to kill broods and the zerg plops down some fungles to keep you back, your army will just melt. Targeting the infestors with marauders is more of an opportunistic thing i have found, if they are out of position you can snipe a few but you can't really rely on that to work all of the time. Now if you can emp those infestors then stim in, you are good to go. Also having the barracks infrastructure up makes it fairly easy to transition into a mass nuke late game if you are interested in that kind of thing.
İ share your problem and im random so essentially imget 1/3 the experience as you do. İ simply have to involve tanks vikings thors and nukes lategame. Dont stress about it. İf it gets to the lategame just have fun and do crazy tech switches.
On June 18 2012 13:49 PurpleBebop wrote: Like the guide. I do bio as well. However, I don't see a spot in your build for bunkers, though, I have not watched the replays yet.
You are right as i do not use Bunkers early game. It depends on what i scout to put them down. Normally you will be save against any pressuring amount of Zerglings cause you produce a high amount of marines from the start so you do not need a bunker.
You do need at least 2-4 Bukers against any kind of allin which depends on what you scout and how agressive he attacks your three marines with zerglings.
But that's reactionary
Also you can pull 1-2 SCVS to buffer some dmg and pull them back before they die which is in most cases unnecesary.
I know I am just a diamond player, but lately Ive been just rolling zergs in the lategame just by focusing on good marine splits, engagements and of course having 10 to 12 medivacs. I have even taken of a few games of of master players.
Does this actually work in high masters is it viable to just kill everything with spreads and good medivac numbers
If you go E-bay and start +1 before laying down techlab, you can hit a timing where both combat shield and +1 hit at roughly the same time. In the OP's build combat shield hits when +1 is like halfway through, on the other hand he moves out earlier.
On June 18 2012 21:18 Vivax wrote: If you go E-bay and start +1 before laying down techlab, you can hit a timing where both combat shield and +1 hit at roughly the same time. In the OP's build combat shield hits when +1 is like halfway through, on the other hand he moves out earlier.
Yeah i know that and i decided to push out without the +1 just because there are a lot less zerglings than if you push with +1 and i think that there also could be banelings?
It's mainly to force zerglings as early as possible but both pushes can work out nicely, any other thoughts on that ?=)
switched from Zerg ( platinium ) to terran ( falled in silver ) 2 months ago I'm playing 14 CC into full bio ( in TvP and TvZ ) I'm back in platinium with terran now ! Bio is good the health
Finnaly a build that i like to play against. Not because it's easy to beat, just because it is enjoyable and it does not incluse a 15 min turtle like marine tanks or mech play. Keep it up with the good guides
This is a very nice and detailed guide. I have to say Bio TvZ is really really good. Main problem is the multitasking with expanding, macroing behind all of your bio waves against the zerg opponent. One of the best things about this play is it has a high chance of sniping the zerg's third.
Just played a strange match. Sent my scouting scv to his 3rd after scouting his main. Single gas pool normal fe blah blah. Sent my first 3 rines to the xel naga. After a few mins no 3rd taken and no lings run to xel naga so I assume all in and put down 4 bunkers. After a few more minutes no all in comes, so I scan his base. He's taken his 3rd now and has raced for infestores. Has about 8-10 infestors out. I go to push out to do some damage and get fungled to death.
How should you go against scouting and countering this strategy?
how come no 1 every goes cc first the metagame right now in tvz is usually hatch first so cc first at 15 supply with a follow up of 2 rax is good i do it every tvz and win my tvz winrate is really high right now not sure what my % is though i went from mid diamond to high diamond with cc first and now am rank 1 beating mid masters
Well first of all really thanks.. i was looking for that MKP video, cuz i was trying to find some good bio builds for tvz.
Till yesterday i used bomber bio style, which can be found on redbull battle grounds (bomber vs ostogy), or on GDstudios(bomber vs stepahno)
Bomber build was alot more greedier, relayed on a strong 2-2 timing with a couple of techlabbed staports in the background, for a swift transition into skyterran vs hive. (seems playing bio, leaves you with alot of gas...)
Basiclly, it was 1 rax fe, into 3 rax and 3rd gasless. then double gas - combat shield and double ebay.
You might say that bomber's build feels abit 2 much passive, but its so eco strong, that once you move out on 2-2, you'll just never stop streaming bio all over the map, with more 8 rax with reactors and TLs pumping nonstop.
The truth is.. i had alot of success with it, till yesterday, when i wanted to chekc it vs roachbane allin, told a zerg friend of mine to roach bane bust me every game (the strongest zerg allin that hits on 8-9 min), just to test out this build.. and i managed to stop it 1 time out of 5. so i dunno if i really have the confidence to ladder with that build anymore.
Anyway.. Gonna check ur reps, and test that build. tnx.
On June 19 2012 15:12 Qibla wrote: Just played a strange match. Sent my scouting scv to his 3rd after scouting his main. Single gas pool normal fe blah blah. Sent my first 3 rines to the xel naga. After a few mins no 3rd taken and no lings run to xel naga so I assume all in and put down 4 bunkers. After a few more minutes no all in comes, so I scan his base. He's taken his 3rd now and has raced for infestores. Has about 8-10 infestors out. I go to push out to do some damage and get fungled to death.
How should you go against scouting and countering this strategy?
Hi,
if Zerg does an allin he in 9 out of 10 matches wants to get xel naga control. So if he does not, he almost always plays passivly. Also he then WANTS to trade zerglings versus your first marines as more passove and teching zergs will NOT, cause they want to keep them alive for later scouting to produce more drones.
Also if you suspect an allin I strongly advice to use at least one scan in the main to click on the gas and see the tech and if still not sure, another one in front of the natural to see the zergling numbers.
Also always keep a marine at the third or float your factory there to spot it, so he NEVER get's a suprising base up.
In addition to that if you scan his main when you pushed with your combat shield, you can poke there and force some more lings, even if you lose your marines and trades vs lings.
Finally keep an scv out on the map and patroul likely morphing spots of Zerg for banelings.
With these informations you should be able to get a clear look of what he wants to do.
Yeah, good style, most zergs aren't used to it yet... but one just countered me after the second match aha.
Basically spores kill drops, and even if i destroyed like 4 hatches, i didn't trade ENOUGH so he had a lot of money... even if i was ahead broodlords and infestors just made him won the game because he just had too many. You really need to make him overproduce mid tier units.
Good point is that i countered a lot of all-in, you need to scout it of course but bio is just too overpowered against all-in ! ( of course it requires good supply depots and like 3 bunkers but not in the front !!! )
On June 19 2012 23:17 KirA_TheGreaT wrote: Yeah, good style, most zergs aren't used to it yet... but one just countered me after the second match aha.
Basically spores kill drops, and even if i destroyed like 4 hatches, i didn't trade ENOUGH so he had a lot of money... even if i was ahead broodlords and infestors just made him won the game because he just had too many. You really need to make him overproduce mid tier units.
Good point is that i countered a lot of all-in, you need to scout it of course but bio is just too overpowered against all-in ! ( of course it requires good supply depots and like 3 bunkers but not in the front !!! )
This strategy is really geared more for direct pushes as opposed to lots of drops. Drops can still be effective. For instance if you snipe the evo chambers researching 2/2 you are in a really good spot. But if you drop too much your direct pushes become weaker. Infestor ling is a really good defensive build and sometimes those few medivacs were the difference between a favorable trade and losing your entire army for next to nothing.
Ive been playing around with this pure bio style the past couple of days after watching MVPDream play this style during GESL over the past weekend, he played quite a few TvZ's and he used a lot of different openings which differ from the build suggested in this guide, but most of his TvZ's he transitioned into mmm with lots of aggression and dropping. I thought it was really fun to watch and wanted to try it out. I don't think replays were released, but vods are on the twitchtv channel if you want to sort through them since they aren't labeled. I also think Puma went pure bio in at least 1 of his TvZ's I watched during dreamhack and it looked quite powerful.
I've been playing pure bio in all of my ladder games so far this season trying to get used to the timings, experimenting with different openings, and learning when to apply pressure since everything feels a lot different from marine/tank, but the style feels really fun to play and fun to watch so I want to keep practicing it. Here are a few the things I have noticed from my ladder games. I was around 1000 pt masters last season so you know what my skill level is roughly.
In MKP's game against stephano from MLG he went straight into 3 rax after his cc skipping the hellions using the build suggested in this guide, but I don't find much success with that opening due to the inability to defend many allins which I have found common on ladder. I also found the initial move out with my first group of marines usually being ineffective and doing very little damage. Maybe faking the move out would be better, let the zerg see your army walk across the map so he reacts with ling production, then turn around and go back home would be better.
I've found I have the most success opening gasless fe into reactor hellions into bio. Hellions might not be as powerful as they used to be since the queen buff, but they still give you some form of map control, they help vs some allins and are able to apply light pressure/some creep denial. I feel the 6 or so hellions make your initial 2 medivac bio push much more powerful if you can keep the hellions alive. I know the OP has one specific build mentioned in the guide, but most of the common TvZ openings can transition into bio.
The biggest thing ive found with this style is you really need a strong economy so you can throw down tons of barracks in the midgame. This is true for all builds, but this style really revolves around putting on lots of pressure throughout the game and throwing waves and waves into the zerg which requires lots of production. Constant scv production, expanding quickly, and adding on lots of barracks in time is extremely important. Once your on 4+ bases the you should have an absurd amount of barracks so you can trade armies and have another army ready to go onto the map. I found 8-10 barracks to be not enough and went up to around 15-20 barracks in a couple of my games when on 4+ bases. With that many barracks as soon as an army died I had another army already ready to go moments later to keep the pressure on.
Like everyone else has said keeping the medivacs alive is one of the most important things. With 15+ medivacs I felt like I was capable of winning battles I shouldn't have even in moments where I didn't spread out perfectly. If you have some apm to spare during battles try to keep your medivacs spread out slightly instead of clumped up which they tend to do sometimes so they don't get hit by chain fungals. If your economy can support it building a second reactor starport for extra medivac production might be interesting and will prepare your production for dealing with broodlords once hive is out. This may be overdoing it though.
I noticed MVPDream kept his 1 factory producing blueflame hellions throughout most of his games, I think if you keep 4-8 bf hellions in your army all the time the splash dmg can make a difference vs zergling heavy styles, it felt like it at least in my games when I had battles with hellions compared to battles without hellions.
Like everyone else has mentioned your success hinges on your control, but I don't think it requires mkp level of micro to execute. Keep your marauders in the front of your army and keep your marines prespread out in small groups behind the marauders before the battle even starts, once the battle starts spread out the marines even more. If you have apm to spare then try to keep your medivacs spread out so they dont all die to chain fungals in case you do lose the battle. Also try to time your drops so they occur the same time every single battle takes place, eventually one of them will do damage and it will really stress the zergs multitasking even more then you are already doing with this high pressure oriented style.
Its overall a fun style to play imo. I'm not sure if its better than the standard marine/tank since it seems like most pro terrans are still making tanks, even MKP transitions into tanks eventually in most of his games I have seen, but I am going to keep practicing it. Hopefully more pro terrans experiment with it because I am interested in seeing what builds they open with and how well it performs vs code s level zergs.
Also, since you will likely pass a watchtower on the way to the third, the zerg can make just the right number of speedlings to kill your squad (since you basically can't retreat), and can drone heavily on 3 bases while you're just getting a third....help!
around 13 and you should BE at the zergs natural around 7:30-7:50 depending on the crispness of your opening and moveout.
The most important thing is to keep the marines in the back of the mineralline, or, if caught before you can move there, to hug the wall and stutterstep back.
Normally if you do not amove but give normal move-command you most likely will get behind the mineral line just when 2 round of zerglings finish and want to hit your marines.
Recently i started to send 3 Marines forward to the xel naga tower on certain maps like antiga shipyard to take it back before the zerg can see all the other marines. Sometimes that works and zerg throws down some more drones, sometimes it does not.
In any case positioning behind the mineral line is key here.
Edit: Also i am currently trying out of it is not better to leave the marines behind the minerals and not try to retreat once the hatch is canceled. Cause you ware in a much better position to trade efficently there instead of getting caught on the backfoot. That would mean no creep denial after canceling the hatch and no chance to join up with the rest of the force, so i am a bit undecided at the moment
On June 19 2012 15:48 SynergySC2 wrote: how come no 1 every goes cc first the metagame right now in tvz is usually hatch first so cc first at 15 supply with a follow up of 2 rax is good i do it every tvz and win my tvz winrate is really high right now not sure what my % is though i went from mid diamond to high diamond with cc first and now am rank 1 beating mid masters
The reasoning is that if you play this way in an open bracket tournament, you will lose 100% of the time to some scrub 6-pooling or baneling busting. In higher tournaments doing a Bo3 series or Bo5, CC first is totally acceptable, but if you want to play competitively, you need to rely primarily on 1rax FE.
Im not completely sure, since i havent had much experience with it, but its my understanding that if there are no tanks in your comp, hydra/ling or even roach/hydra actually trades decently well against MMM... noone actually use hydras though, since pure bio play is quite uncommon, and they have a bad reputation, but try it out in a unit tester... theyre actually quite good, i'd imagine even better, if you can fungal the marines, so the hydras outrange them...
On June 19 2012 15:48 SynergySC2 wrote: how come no 1 every goes cc first the metagame right now in tvz is usually hatch first so cc first at 15 supply with a follow up of 2 rax is good i do it every tvz and win my tvz winrate is really high right now not sure what my % is though i went from mid diamond to high diamond with cc first and now am rank 1 beating mid masters
The reasoning is that if you play this way in an open bracket tournament, you will lose 100% of the time to some scrub 6-pooling or baneling busting. In higher tournaments doing a Bo3 series or Bo5, CC first is totally acceptable, but if you want to play competitively, you need to rely primarily on 1rax FE.
On June 19 2012 15:48 SynergySC2 wrote: how come no 1 every goes cc first the metagame right now in tvz is usually hatch first so cc first at 15 supply with a follow up of 2 rax is good i do it every tvz and win my tvz winrate is really high right now not sure what my % is though i went from mid diamond to high diamond with cc first and now am rank 1 beating mid masters
The reasoning is that if you play this way in an open bracket tournament, you will lose 100% of the time to some scrub 6-pooling or baneling busting. In higher tournaments doing a Bo3 series or Bo5, CC first is totally acceptable, but if you want to play competitively, you need to rely primarily on 1rax FE.
you can def hold 6 pool with just scvs but with all drones is a different story because lings dont have enough dps and u have enough scvs to hold it and baneling busts are easy to hold iv holded it numerous times build bunkers next to ccs and build a barracks where the bust will hit and only lings will be left baneling will be soaked on buildings but if some are left just split or even presplit before bust
I have a couple of questions after trying this build many times.
1. Scenraio: I control my xelnaga, have an scv on his 3rd position, the time is 7 min no 3rd.. 7:30 no 3rd. Basic logic saying that theres an obvious reason not to leave me by base with a combat shiled push.. but what should be my excat respond? build a bunker? getting an earlier 3rd? trying to scan? still going out with combat shiled and +1? the thing is.. not all zergs are responding to 1 rax fe with 5:30-6:30 3rd, i just had a game vs master z who took his 3rd on 9 min, while some zergs will go for a bane busts on 7 min.. or roach bane busts on 9 min.. which in these cases.. moving out is stupid...
2. Some zerg will always get an early bane defence.. even if they 6 min 3rd.. what do u do if ur combat shiled push was demolished really uneffectivley.. i mean.. as you mentioned on ur post, i start build my 3rd on 11-12 min. well zerg's 3rd on 6 min vs my 3rd on 12 min.. seems like i'll never be able to produce enough to have any kind of real pressure.
On June 22 2012 00:05 dohgg wrote: I have a couple of questions after trying this build many times.
1. Scenraio: I control my xelnaga, have an scv on his 3rd position, the time is 7 min no 3rd.. 7:30 no 3rd. Basic logic saying that theres an obvious reason not to leave me by base with a combat shiled push.. but what should be my excat respond? build a bunker? getting an earlier 3rd? trying to scan? still going out with combat shiled and +1? the thing is.. not all zergs are responding to 1 rax fe with 5:30-6:30 3rd, i just had a game vs master z who took his 3rd on 9 min, while some zergs will go for a bane busts on 7 min.. or roach bane busts on 9 min.. which in these cases.. moving out is stupid...
2. Some zerg will always get an early bane defence.. even if they 6 min 3rd.. what do u do if ur combat shiled push was demolished really uneffectivley.. i mean.. as you mentioned on ur post, i start build my 3rd on 11-12 min. well zerg's 3rd on 6 min vs my 3rd on 12 min.. seems like i'll never be able to produce enough to have any kind of real pressure.
@ first scenario:
Obviously you want to scan. If you do not see a trhid around 7-7:30 you should strongly suspect an allin so what you do right that second:
start building 4 bunkers patrouling an scv in front of you ramp to pull scvs to repair in time scouting with one marine around locations where those banelings could morph
after starting those 4 bunkers you should also scan his main (try to see everything if possible even behind the minerals to spot a baneling nest). You want to look for a) Banelingnest b) Roach warren (-> Marauder in Bunker not in front) c) gas count (click and see how much ins mined) d) ling count e) Evo chambers If you see evochambers / low gas count / not much lings / no roach warren it is either a relativly week all in or none. If you do not see a baneling nest and still suspect an allin scan the natural. Now you should be able to fully confirm if there is an allin coming. You have to see the baneling nest now if there is one at all, also you can see the ling count (no lings -> your scounting marine will find them).
If you can judge now that an allin is coming react accordingly: man bunkers ( all bunkers with 4 units to absob banelings asap!) pull scvs scout around raise walll do not move out etc.
if there is none coming you can cancle the bunkers before even finishing them and just delay your push till your first 2/4 medivacs are out to neglate any early banelings or lings etc.and having a save escape route.
It can be tricky to make the right decision and i still sometimes overlook an allin and lose but the more games you play the more you see those tiny little differences and yu will get to know when you need to be more defensive and when to push out.
2) If zerg is prepared you have 2 choices: a) go regardless and trade (see one of my last 2 replays where he got a decent number of banelings) to trade the banelings so they are gone and he has more to morph) b) retreat and wait for medivacs for a stronger push afterwards.
Normally zerg has not enough units to counter your push if he went for a fast 3rd. Even if he does your push denys drones beeing build to saturate that immediatly which is great.
If he has build alot of units = great! retread and rejoice of having done damage without even engaging. Then begin rentless agression once medivacs are out.
Hope it helped.
Edit: Also what i really want you to notice is that you just push out! Espically in the first ~15 Minutes when infestors are not out you can just push all the time and trade, pick up, heal up, go again etc. but if you give zerg like 2-3 free drone rounds after the 10 Minute mark you will lose cause zerg has maximum amount of drones and only needs to produce lings now so you'r pressure is not effective. JUST PUSH :D It's hard to get out of the defensive mentality after a push get's crushed when you played marine tank alot but it's really necessary to be agressive all the time and trade units even if it seems bad you can imagine killing drones instead of lings cause he has to build stuff and not drones.
I have been using this and I won 10x in a row vs Zerg.
HOWEVER....
....
Now I just cannot simply win, because in the guide you say to move out wirh marines early to deny his 3rd. I cannot. He already has ling bling before taking 3rd. If this is the case, what do I do?
Cant believe I cannot find....was winning 10 in a row just a few days ago.. Basically I cannot snipe his 3rd. even without bling, his ling coutn is really high to kill my marines..
On June 22 2012 16:23 dynwar7 wrote: I have been using this and I won 10x in a row vs Zerg.
HOWEVER....
....
Now I just cannot simply win, because in the guide you say to move out wirh marines early to deny his 3rd. I cannot. He already has ling bling before taking 3rd. If this is the case, what do I do?
Cant believe I cannot find....was winning 10 in a row just a few days ago.. Basically I cannot snipe his 3rd. even without bling, his ling coutn is really high to kill my marines..
I think the main idea of that combat shiled push is to just "screw up the zerg intentions"
He made a third for a clear reason to saturate it, and it'll be harder for him to do so, if he made lings and defence to stop your push, however, as the OP said, eventho he might hold ur push, the idea is still to trade effective as possible.
I have another question to the OP. I was trading quite good on 10~15 min, till the zerg managed to get infestors out, obivously i m not MKP, but i did minimize his fungels effect with a decent split, but on overall view:
its just nearly immposible to trade well vs infestors with a good upgraded lings to cover them, i did focus fire with marauders but still got fungeled loacked and surrounded by lings. and in the end of the day, the trades became more of a trade of bio for energy (of infestors) then a trade of bio for reasources (banlings/roaches/mutas).
Do you think that mixing 2-3 ghosts can be good? or maybe adding 1 more reactor starport to start being really heavy on medivacs?
On June 19 2012 15:12 Qibla wrote: Just played a strange match. Sent my scouting scv to his 3rd after scouting his main. Single gas pool normal fe blah blah. Sent my first 3 rines to the xel naga. After a few mins no 3rd taken and no lings run to xel naga so I assume all in and put down 4 bunkers. After a few more minutes no all in comes, so I scan his base. He's taken his 3rd now and has raced for infestores. Has about 8-10 infestors out. I go to push out to do some damage and get fungled to death.
How should you go against scouting and countering this strategy?
Do something that QXC does. put a bunker outside of his nat/at his third. Toss a couple marines in there. You'll find out very quickly what his intetions are.
On June 22 2012 17:35 dohgg wrote: I have another question to the OP. I was trading quite good on 10~15 min, till the zerg managed to get infestors out, obivously i m not MKP, but i did minimize his fungels effect with a decent split, but on overall view:
its just nearly immposible to trade well vs infestors with a good upgraded lings to cover them, i did focus fire with marauders but still got fungeled loacked and surrounded by lings. and in the end of the day, the trades became more of a trade of bio for energy (of infestors) then a trade of bio for reasources (banlings/roaches/mutas).
Do you think that mixing 2-3 ghosts can be good? or maybe adding 1 more reactor starport to start being really heavy on medivacs?
The games were played with my friends on peepmode, so u actually need to move forward times x8.. to get to that certain game.. it was 2:30 hours peepmode ...
Anyway.. would love if u can contact me on eu server once u feel better and can play, i would like to see this build be performed by some1 who already have a solid confidence with that build.
In the midgame, have you experimented with getting ghosts at all if your sure they are going infestor? Ive kinda started doing that and if you hit all your emp's / snipes then they just die...
What I've found really seals the deal is a build that I watched mkp do on stream multiple times.
Basically, he does 1 rax fe into a sort of 1/1/1 where he gets blue flame and 4 medivacs with 1/1 infantry. He follows it with a 1/1 timing attack that uses blue flame hellions and the support of 4 medivacs. In 8 games, I have 100% winrate.
Thanks for the guide. I'm currently working on this build just have a simple question...
~9-10 mins I start to bank minerals (as im getting my first medivacs). This seems like the right time to throw down the 3rd base but you say not to get it until 12 minutes. Also I noticed in one of your replays on Antiga you had excess mineral at the same time but overmade supply depots. Is there any particular reason why you delay this 3rd base or extra rax?
something maybe not thought about (havent seen it mentioned) is that playing this style in tvz is not only viable and ahead of its time, but also makes you fucking amazing in tvp lategame.
if you can fight t3 zerg effectively with bio you can fight lategame protoss. i like to mix in ghosts because i need to be able to have superb ghost control in tvp might as well practice it in tvz too
@ Picklebread: No i have not i have played only tvps last days to improve this matchup cause i get like 0 wins in the lategame :/ But some posts here suggest to incorporate them so you should definitly try!
@ Procify: Do you have some replays / vods with the timing where this build goes down? I might try it out
@ Vies: Yeah that comes if you mess something up in the build and do not play it 100% perfectly. It happens to me also if i am not paying enough attention.
I have switched things up a bit right now for testing purpose which is getting 3 more rax at around 11 min (pause marine production) and then around 12 my 3rd cc while still upgrading etc.
If you produce constantly and do not get supply blocked and upgrade at the same time you should normaly not ahve excessive minerals. If you have though just throw down the cc or rax etc.
So there is no particular reason just bad overall play at that point
I just found this build quite weak vs 9 min 3rd (safer expand for zerg, after teching). (not only leaving you in the dark for couple of minutes for potentional allin)
The 2 medivcas timings will be stoped with 2 many banes or infestors already, and after taking expo on 12 min -> 15~ min 3rd is up mining.
On June 26 2012 02:09 Vies wrote: Thanks for the guide. I'm currently working on this build just have a simple question...
~9-10 mins I start to bank minerals (as im getting my first medivacs). This seems like the right time to throw down the 3rd base but you say not to get it until 12 minutes. Also I noticed in one of your replays on Antiga you had excess mineral at the same time but overmade supply depots. Is there any particular reason why you delay this 3rd base or extra rax?
The earlier you get your third cc the better, if you can afford it at that time without dying to an attack then do it. Its especially important to get it fast with this style because you need enough production in the midgame to effectively trade and if you delay your 3rd until 12+ min it may put you behind if your initial pressure hasn't done enough damage. Most of my TvZ builds revolve around having my 3rd orbital landed at my 3rd around the 10-11 min mark.
Ok, what do you do if they are bad and you see no 3rd base and a bunch of lings but they never all in you and a late 3rd? What time is it "ok" to push out of your base without being scared to be killed.
Alright guys i am working on an improved version of the build which gives you a faster 3rd, a really more solid way to hold allins (i've tested vs all allins i know and i've hold every single one even without bunkers (build them only once i see the allin coming).
Right now the chance is to only have 2 in gas instead of 3, this gest you a CC at around 7:10 minutes. By this exact time you also put 1 one more into both geysers for a total of 3 and take your 3rd geyser also with 3 scvs.
Take your 4th gas as usual while you get your armory and ebay down.
This allows you to get an earylier wall with your supplydepots, consistently produce stuff out of your buildings and add in ALOT more barrracks really early on when you move out with your medivacs etc.
On June 27 2012 07:55 Enemyy wrote: Alright guys i am working on an improved version of the build which gives you a faster 3rd, a really more solid way to hold allins (i've tested vs all allins i know and i've hold every single one even without bunkers (build them only once i see the allin coming).
Right now the chance is to only have 2 in gas instead of 3, this gest you a CC at around 7:10 minutes. By this exact time you also put 1 one more into both geysers for a total of 3 and take your 3rd geyser also with 3 scvs.
Take your 4th gas as usual while you get your armory and ebay down.
This allows you to get an earylier wall with your supplydepots, consistently produce stuff out of your buildings and add in ALOT more barrracks really early on when you move out with your medivacs etc.
Aw man you kidding me? -_- I have barely got to try your original build and i've made IRL notes with the BO etc and now you make a better build? xD
Btw, how does an earlier third CC make you less vulnerable to all ins? If anything it should make you weaker. And when will you meet top 25 or top 8 masters? Really wanna see replays of you vs zergs who actually know how to play.
On June 27 2012 07:55 Enemyy wrote: Alright guys i am working on an improved version of the build which gives you a faster 3rd, a really more solid way to hold allins (i've tested vs all allins i know and i've hold every single one even without bunkers (build them only once i see the allin coming).
Right now the chance is to only have 2 in gas instead of 3, this gest you a CC at around 7:10 minutes. By this exact time you also put 1 one more into both geysers for a total of 3 and take your 3rd geyser also with 3 scvs.
Take your 4th gas as usual while you get your armory and ebay down.
This allows you to get an earylier wall with your supplydepots, consistently produce stuff out of your buildings and add in ALOT more barrracks really early on when you move out with your medivacs etc.
Aw man you kidding me? -_- I have barely got to try your original build and i've made IRL notes with the BO etc and now you make a better build? xD
Btw, how does an earlier third CC make you less vulnerable to all ins? If anything it should make you weaker. And when will you meet top 25 or top 8 masters? Really wanna see replays of you vs zergs who actually know how to play.
(i helped with the new version)
Because we found out that less 2 workers on gas is a huge impact on your mineral income growth, that it allows you a sick constant production from all your raxs, 2 workers off gas will give you way more then 400 mineral on 7 min to set a 3rd, all the extra minerals will go into production, and also, in a case of allin, can go into setting walls and bunkers.
Another note. All the gas intentions on that build, are not going into defensive units (Tanks, banshees) but into offensive stuff as upgrades and medivacs, so as a result, having a bit less of gas ratio will actually help you defending aggresion.
Why the build have been changed? 1.We found out that the build have abit of extra income gas and missing alot of mineral income to support 3 rax production. (For example, you'll never have enough minerlas to start +1, by the time ebay is done, if you kept constant production of marines and SCVs, even tho, your gas will be above 100) 2. the 7 min CC, is a great timing, not only it'll be done and landing by the moment your medivacs will be out and u'll start your push, also it'll keep you equal with a zerg 7-9 min 3rd (consider 5 min 3rd will be punished by combat shiled push)
I makes you less vulnerable to allins cause you have more minerals to wall off again quickly, throw down bunkers etc. you won't need nearly any gas units djuring allins most of the time with bio so it only improves the effectiveness of a hold (e.g. the 6min allin was unstoppable with 3 in gas and 0 bunkers while it is now cause you can instantly wall off again and put down a bunker for the next wave.
It is possible to go marine tank after the combat shield timing im sure? I was thinking: Fac makes reac, gives it to port,(normal) THEN fac makes lab and eventually make tanks + siege tank and then i add an extra fac + lab and end up with 2 facs massing tanks?
How difficult is it to incorporate blue flame hellions into this build? Since you have to build the Factory anyways to get to Medivacs, wouldn't it be interesting to research Blue Flame and then switch it onto a reactor afterwards to start getting some AoE into the composition? They're still very mobile and can definitely help with a swarm of ling bane in the mid-game.
@ Thylacine i guess it should be no problem, just take 5th and 6th gas with your 3rd. eventually cut back on marine upgrades a bit but that might not even be a necessaty. Just look at the vs top8 master - replay to see a reletavily nicely done bo and try to adjust it yourself.
@ deshoo Definitly! But they eat up money pretty fast and do not scale with upgrades, so even infesting further in them by reseach stuff + addon etc. they will get worst as the game goes on so i personally don't know but yeah it is possible.
You can transition into alot of stuff out of bio play in general and add stuff to it (even thors etc.) kinda personal stage. The gas you have left over makes alot possible.
On June 22 2012 16:23 dynwar7 wrote: I have been using this and I won 10x in a row vs Zerg.
HOWEVER....
....
Now I just cannot simply win, because in the guide you say to move out wirh marines early to deny his 3rd. I cannot. He already has ling bling before taking 3rd. If this is the case, what do I do?
Cant believe I cannot find....was winning 10 in a row just a few days ago.. Basically I cannot snipe his 3rd. even without bling, his ling coutn is really high to kill my marines..
I think the main idea of that combat shiled push is to just "screw up the zerg intentions"
He made a third for a clear reason to saturate it, and it'll be harder for him to do so, if he made lings and defence to stop your push, however, as the OP said, eventho he might hold ur push, the idea is still to trade effective as possible.
I have another question to the OP. I was trading quite good on 10~15 min, till the zerg managed to get infestors out, obivously i m not MKP, but i did minimize his fungels effect with a decent split, but on overall view:
its just nearly immposible to trade well vs infestors with a good upgraded lings to cover them, i did focus fire with marauders but still got fungeled loacked and surrounded by lings. and in the end of the day, the trades became more of a trade of bio for energy (of infestors) then a trade of bio for reasources (banlings/roaches/mutas).
Just chiming in here, I've been experimenting with this build quite a bit. The point of the extremely fast upgrades, literally constant upgrades, and high medivac count is to force a large number of lings to cover the infestors. Don't view the trades as just mineral/gas efficient, but larvae efficient!
By dropping, engaging in multiple locations, and engaging as cost efficiently as possible, you will either kill all the lings because he's being stretched very thin, or you make it much more difficult for him to inject larvae at all times. Even if you lose a big army, your ability to rebuild and move out is much better than with siege tanks, as you do not need to wait for a critical number of tanks, you just need a few MMM to continuously poke and drop him to death. Just force trade after trade and with MMM being so supply/larvae efficient against Ling/Infestor, the Zerg should have a hard time keeping up.
Also, the point of the combat shield push is indeed just to "screw up the zerg intentions." Unless they've already spread creep to their third, which on some maps is rather difficult to do, it's hard to get a queen response, and you can delay mining while forcing quite a few zerglings.
I wonder if a transition to bio/sky terran is viable late game against broodlords; I like HSM soooo much because broods stack up and I adore watching them explode :D
On June 30 2012 09:33 deathtrance wrote: I wonder if a transition to bio/sky terran is viable late game against broodlords; I like HSM soooo much because broods stack up and I adore watching them explode :D
Can work but you need to be able to take at least 4 Bases . I'm also not a fan of HSM overall its way too gimmicky and easy to counter.
Well you can make any kind of transition as long as NEVER stop the pressure.. and thats pretty important point!
Also, getting +1.. +2.. +3 on your air attack is pretty important.. altho the chances of him to get broods are kinda low, or you didnt aggresive enough..
I must say, this is the most annoying style of play when I face Terran.. endless vomiting of tier 1's all day. Detailed guide to my bane makes me raise an eyebrow.
I feel like my army is just way to small to drop midgame/lategame.
heres a replay of a game i just played, this happens every time: mass ling infestor and I just can't be aggresive anymore because it's too swarmy, even when im ahead economically. If i start trading i just die and its cost efficent for him?
On July 02 2012 01:23 Thylacine wrote: I feel like my army is just way to small to drop midgame/lategame.
heres a replay of a game i just played, this happens every time: mass ling infestor and I just can't be aggresive anymore because it's too swarmy, even when im ahead economically. If i start trading i just die and its cost efficent for him?
3rd cc full minute too late reactors too late 4th gas way to early You can add those 3 rax at the time you move out (or even 4) And do not build reactors on those rax
The big error you made here is that you've messed up the opening by quite a bit and then added rax even later AND built reactors which leaves you with no additional reinforcements till 13:30 (!!)
You really need to execute the opening alot more crisper and add the cc, reactors and additional rax WAY earlier.
Also you have a very low unit count around 10:20, i just looked up a game where my medivacs where delayed cause i messed up but i lost my first combat shield push and had 30 marines and 2 marauders + 2 medivacs just started at 10:20 you had 18 marines (!!) and 1 marauder + 2 medivacs so you definitly need waaay more marines.
Edit also work on your scv production, you should be around 50-55 around the 10minute mark
I personally can advice to use less of drop action, with that specific build, you want as much of "power army" infront of his face to utilize trading efficency.
A droping terran is much better for a style that relay on slow zerg army (Roaches?) and also, to a style that benefit from getting into seige tanks (wtf is siege tanks?) position while droping and "stealing his attention"... its simply less effective with that syle, but eventho, mixing it while doing pressure is pretty good and fun once you got ahead...
On July 02 2012 01:23 Thylacine wrote: I feel like my army is just way to small to drop midgame/lategame.
heres a replay of a game i just played, this happens every time: mass ling infestor and I just can't be aggresive anymore because it's too swarmy, even when im ahead economically. If i start trading i just die and its cost efficent for him?
3rd cc full minute too late reactors too late 4th gas way to early You can add those 3 rax at the time you move out (or even 4) And do not build reactors on those rax
The big error you made here is that you've messed up the opening by quite a bit and then added rax even later AND built reactors which leaves you with no additional reinforcements till 13:30 (!!)
You really need to execute the opening alot more crisper and add the cc, reactors and additional rax WAY earlier.
Also you have a very low unit count around 10:20, i just looked up a game where my medivacs where delayed cause i messed up but i lost my first combat shield push and had 30 marines and 2 marauders + 2 medivacs just started at 10:20 you had 18 marines (!!) and 1 marauder + 2 medivacs so you definitly need waaay more marines.
Edit also work on your scv production, you should be around 50-55 around the 10minute mark
I simply dont have the minerals at 7 min to throw up a CC. What should I cut off in order to get enough mins for it? When should I take 4th gas? Thanks for all this kind information i was thinking my opener was completely fucked up. It's probably because i wrote down my ''own'' timings of stuff (on notes that i put on my pc) that isn't supply reliant.
Btw, at very early game when CC is making at 16 supply, I cut marine but keep making SCV as i make 17 depot, because else I think i will get supply blocked. should i do that?
On July 02 2012 01:23 Thylacine wrote: I feel like my army is just way to small to drop midgame/lategame.
heres a replay of a game i just played, this happens every time: mass ling infestor and I just can't be aggresive anymore because it's too swarmy, even when im ahead economically. If i start trading i just die and its cost efficent for him?
3rd cc full minute too late reactors too late 4th gas way to early You can add those 3 rax at the time you move out (or even 4) And do not build reactors on those rax
The big error you made here is that you've messed up the opening by quite a bit and then added rax even later AND built reactors which leaves you with no additional reinforcements till 13:30 (!!)
You really need to execute the opening alot more crisper and add the cc, reactors and additional rax WAY earlier.
Also you have a very low unit count around 10:20, i just looked up a game where my medivacs where delayed cause i messed up but i lost my first combat shield push and had 30 marines and 2 marauders + 2 medivacs just started at 10:20 you had 18 marines (!!) and 1 marauder + 2 medivacs so you definitly need waaay more marines.
Edit also work on your scv production, you should be around 50-55 around the 10minute mark
I simply dont have the minerals at 7 min to throw up a CC. What should I cut off in order to get enough mins for it? When should I take 4th gas? Thanks for all this kind information i was thinking my opener was completely fucked up. It's probably because i wrote down my ''own'' timings of stuff (on notes that i put on my pc) that isn't supply reliant.
Btw, at very early game when CC is making at 16 supply, I cut marine but keep making SCV as i make 17 depot, because else I think i will get supply blocked. should i do that?
Not sure how everyone else does it, but I cut the SCV to have 3 marines at 19 supply and use those three marines to do some initial poking to scout for all-ins or sneak out a few drone kills.
if you have only 2 guys in both gas than you should be able to afford the third CC at around 7:10-7:20 without cutting production as only one rax will be producing, the other two should be making reactors. the fourth gas is gotten as you get your armory and second engineering bay to get +2/+2
On June 25 2012 20:05 Procify wrote: Pure bio works pretty well from what I've tried.
What I've found really seals the deal is a build that I watched mkp do on stream multiple times.
Basically, he does 1 rax fe into a sort of 1/1/1 where he gets blue flame and 4 medivacs with 1/1 infantry. He follows it with a 1/1 timing attack that uses blue flame hellions and the support of 4 medivacs. In 8 games, I have 100% winrate.
Yeah pure bio is good TvZ but only vs ground based (infestor ling, roach bling, etc).
Vs muta styles you play oldschool but with a triple cc opening.
@Thylacine:
I don't know about other people or this guy in particular, but what I do is open a sort of reactor hellion build but I get gas at 16 after starting orbital, so it's technically a 1 rax expansion but with the factory going down right after the first CC. The later gas allows me to play like a normal reac hellion into timing, but with a 3rd cc put in earlier (6 mins or so?), and the extra 3 base infrastructure put in sooner after that, as I begin to mule from the additional OC.
I've updated the BO with a new one. I've done some testing with it and it is definitly alot better than the old one.
Changes: It is basically the same BO as before just with 2 guys in each of the first gas which enables you to get a cc down at 7:10 and have more minerals (= buildings, scvs, marines etc.) for allin defense. Please notice that some gas timings are new, too.
I will see if i can provide more replays for you in the next few days.
It's not pure bio, but it's just a few hellions mixed in. Against a 1300pt last season zerg, 700pt this season I just played on daybreak with constant drops and pressure all over with marine marauder medic with a few hellions.
I suggest, as I always have, the demuslim opening for this kind of style. It gets you stim cs +1, and an 'early' third, and 5-6 rax 2 fac 1 port off 2 base, taking a third to drop a few more barracks to really churn out the bio army.
On July 03 2012 08:44 iAmJeffReY wrote: It's not pure bio, but it's just a few hellions mixed in. Against a 1300pt last season zerg, 700pt this season I just played on daybreak with constant drops and pressure all over with marine marauder medic with a few hellions.
I suggest, as I always have, the demuslim opening for this kind of style. It gets you stim cs +1, and an 'early' third, and 5-6 rax 2 fac 1 port off 2 base, taking a third to drop a few more barracks to really churn out the bio army.
Yes! I always mix hellions in. As I take my 3rd, I research blue flame from the factory and when the lategame comes, I add an additional fac and make thors from the first one, the second one I make a reactor for lategame hellions if needed.
This is just stupid. Always when I push there is no 3rd and theres too much defense to cause dmg with the marines, so I have to retreat. He got 1-2 crawlers, lings and many queens. Too big.
And then ling bling, how do I deal with it midgame? I can't push, really, lol.
And how do I produce an army fast enough to replenish the army I push with midgame? 9 raxes at 13:00 isn't enough obviously, but I can't afford to produce off more then that. And it's not so fun fighting 1-1 blings midgame with mass speedlings..?
If you do your initial CS marine poke and see no third then good, he is either dojng an all in or else you are ahead due to having an earlier third than the Zerg.
You start marauder production after you start building the reactors on your two other raxes.
To deal with long bling you need to be able to as least somewhat split, or on lower leagues you can just have the marauders up front as most people just a move the banelings
Unless you are being extremely cost inefficient than a production cycle of 12 marines, 2 medicvacs, and 1 marauder should be enough to resupply your army. If you to lose your entire army, make sure your medicvacs survive and wait a couple of production rounds and go back into the Zergs face.
You want to start your 4th as soon as possible without stopping production or upgrades, web your 4th is up you want to be on around 14 to 16 raxes.
If you do lose all your medicvacs than it would be a good idea to take the 5th and 6th gas and build another reactor star port to rebuild that big amount of medicvacs.
On July 06 2012 05:58 NoZyneighbor wrote: If you do your initial CS marine poke and see no third then good, he is either dojng an all in or else you are ahead due to having an earlier third than the Zerg.
You start marauder production after you start building the reactors on your two other raxes.
To deal with long bling you need to be able to as least somewhat split, or on lower leagues you can just have the marauders up front as most people just a move the banelings
Unless you are being extremely cost inefficient than a production cycle of 12 marines, 2 medicvacs, and 1 marauder should be enough to resupply your army. If you to lose your entire army, make sure your medicvacs survive and wait a couple of production rounds and go back into the Zergs face.
You want to start your 4th as soon as possible without stopping production or upgrades, web your 4th is up you want to be on around 14 to 16 raxes.
If you do lose all your medicvacs than it would be a good idea to take the 5th and 6th gas and build another reactor star port to rebuild that big amount of medicvacs.
6 raxes with reac 1 with lab?? That seems really expensive..
and ofc I try to split but he still cleans it up with ling bling easy mode. Also I move all marines backwards behind marauders when he runs at me, so it's not so bad but he still easily cleans it up and then as longer it goes on it gets impossible to push... >_<
Btw he takes 3rd at 8:00. Right after he fends off my marines with mass queen + lings. So he will have that 3rd up and functioning before mine is up and functioning.
Only the initial two raxes get reactors the rest is always just naked raxes, this s because you do not want to wait for the reactors as you want to get extra production as fast as possible. The naked raxes also allows you to easily transition into mass marauders when he starts to get ultras
Never get addons unless ultra?...so ONLY make 1 marauder at a time, forever? only add more naked raxes? That is essentially Only going marines, and only going marines in TvZ only works for Marineking, lol. Explain how you manage?
Somehow I feel like you either did not read the OP or did not read the entire OP, when you see infestor tech you get another tech lab for double marauder production. I think you overestimate the abilities of casual zerg players.
These are all the TvZ i played since I started using the BO this thread gave. http://drop.sc/packs/1183 They contain replays of both the old BO and the new BO. They are not the top of the level replays, most of them are either high diamond or low masters. so watch these replays with a grain of salt
edit: for some reason you cannot just download single replays, you must download the pack as a whole in order to get the replays
I've seen the replays. And 2 tech labs still seem too low too fight ling/bling or ling/bling/Infestor mid/lategame? .And if you expand at 7:10, how do you afford to add on 2-4 raxes?
I think they simply cost too much. Better go vikings vs broorlord or more marauder for infestors. If Zerg is really bad maybe, but if a techunits then the raven.
Eneemyy, I appreciate if you answer to my question(s):
And 2 tech labs still seem too low too fight ling/bling or ling/bling/Infestor mid/lategame? And if you expand at 7:10, how do you afford to add on 2-4 raxes?
I couldn't keep count as I was reading the guide, but you keep saying that if the build is to work that you have to attack constantly and a lot. In a regular game using this build, about how many times would I attack?
@ Thylacine: That's already answered somwhere in my guide or the thread. You get 1 TL all game. If Infestors get out you get 1-2 more. If Roaches get out you get 1-4 more depending on how roach heavy the zerg is. If Ultralisks get out you get like 8-10 TL in total and produce 2 rounds marauders.
@ Absurd Bunny: You attack as often as you need to kill bases/him. You pull back if you are on the edge to beeing overrunned and pull your reinforcements from your home to help out and push again. This you do all the time.
For any zergs wondering how to counter this. Just play normal and don't throw an army away. All you need is one good engagement and you're going to win, just make sure that you're not being forced to mess up from the aggression is all.
If you suspect this, muta/bane/ling will beat it much more easier than ling/infestor. This is actually quite good vs ling/infestor. Once again, all you'll need is one good fight, drone a bit then OVERMAKE units and you'll win this pretty easy.
You can also go for the hard ling/bane all-in style a bit later on if you do not die from the first 1-2 attacks. There is no way to stop it at all if the terran isn't making tanks and has bio only, no splitting will stop it
Otherwise it's alot of fun, mixing in more hellions helps alot if they're going ling/infestor.
Anybody considered the strenght of adding 2 starports when the third is up to take the battle to the skies? 2bd armory and reseach double air upgrades for banshees, maybe add ravens. Once bio upgrades are done you should have plenty of gas. Banshees are good vs Infestors and this makes your lategame skyterran transition a ton easier. Hell, you might even add caduceus reactor!
On July 09 2012 02:47 Toastie.NL wrote: Anybody considered the strenght of adding 2 starports when the third is up to take the battle to the skies? 2bd armory and reseach double air upgrades for banshees, maybe add ravens. Once bio upgrades are done you should have plenty of gas. Banshees are good vs Infestors and this makes your lategame skyterran transition a ton easier. Hell, you might even add caduceus reactor!
Watch Bomber, he has been utilizing late game sky transitions the most. It isn't working out extremely well yet, but he may be the first to really figure it out.
In theory transitioning into skyterran is awsome after bioplay, because how the gas bank is growing up, but: 1. Bio play require constant aggresion 2. Transitioing into skyterran require a window of passivety Not only these 2 things conflicting each other, there are also few points that need to be brought up: 1. Bio play is extremley vulnerable to mass banlings timing attacks (No tanks), part of this build's target is to keep the zerg under pressure so it'll be hard for him to establish such a threat, if you wanna make such a transition i'll recommend turtling up with mass bunkers and pre-split army. 2. You need to be quite ahead to be able to make the transition (ravens takes ages to gather energy, and every BC is a huge invesment and production time) or you'll will probably die to ultras+infestor+banlings before that, so if you're ahead already, why not finishing the game instead of entering to a tuff secnario when a chain of fungels will kill 10k supply of air units. 3. Every starport u make and air unit you make will weaken your bio army, while the zerg given a window of passivty can instatly make a transition into w/e he want with the freedom he gain on economy.
I still dont know what to do if they already have banelings when I attack his greedy 3rd. Even in MKP's replay, he was luck that his opponent didnt have banelings....what would you do if they already have blings? you cannot deny his 3rd.
I have the most trouble when I force the zerg to overproduce lings. Mainly two things: 1) This forces me to prepare for an all-in, which may or may not come. 2) I have a hard time finding the right time to take my 3rd... as those pesky lings can catch me out of position (very map dependant). If I take my 3rd too early, I die to pressure. If i take my 3rd too late, I fall behind
Wish there was a good way to read the zerg about when to take my 3rd after lots of lings are made.
I actually really love your build order, it's definitely helped me to feel a bit better in TvZ, I love to FE wherever I can and this gives me a reasonable timing attack with CS marines to punish the current metagame whilst still being relatively safe to all ins. I love it!
On July 20 2012 12:44 chuminh wrote: Hydra is the answer to this bio style.
A tad simplistic of an answer, but in a nutshell, yes.
As soon as I see a floating factory or directly scout the bio-only situation, throwing in some hydras with the typical infestor/ling/bling is stupid strong. If T spreads, the hydras will pick their spread units apart. If they clump to engage the hydras, fungal/bling will wreck the bioball.
On July 20 2012 12:35 Nightops wrote: so what do you do when you deny their third so they make 20 banelings and just run over your base?
You should be able to scout an attack like that coming. With good micro you can easily hold it. If you suspect a bane allin, do these things
1) add a liberal amount of bunkers 2) don't take your own 3rd 3) make marauders 4) get your medivacs out asap [which you should be doing already, but they're critical combined with marauders to hold banes) 5) SPREAD your units and micro well, don't lose too many scvs (pull them into your main if you have to
On July 23 2012 13:46 -Aura- wrote: Having such trouble against master zergs, because they multitask well and handle my drops, and my splitting isn't up to par.
I feel like if you can't drop, slowly pressuring with small forces everywhere does the same thing. Zergs tend to try and hide their stuff like spire tech from the main to avoid scans so if its at the natural, try to poke with a small force at the 3rd/4th area while sending a significant force to run past the natural. If your force poking the 3rd/4th is spottedly early, I usually just kill creep and back off to a local medivac off creep.
Make sure to spot where static defenses are and really take a strong position behind mineral lines. The biggest problem with drops in those scenarios are the slow unloads and the fact that queens + just a handful of lings can snipe whatever comes down. If everything is out already with a medivac or two, you can snipe tech/upgrades/queens/drones/whateveryouprioritize and then save some units to escape. Think of it like a reaper where you don't necessarily have to use the cliff jumping to get in since you're often blind and risk suiciding, but you can certainly use it (the medivac) as a means to leave.
Of course, this is all just my experience with using bio in TvZ. A really good Zerg will leave an infestor with several packs of lings if they catch onto you doing this, but usually that's after you scar them the first time and strike fear in their hearts. If you manage to get them to leave a few infestors around, trading armies becomes way easier in terms of splitting and positioning.
1. You can't hold ground at all in enemy territory. Everything you do from sniping hatches to decimating drone lines has to be done stim, hit, and run style. 2. Playing micro trainer customs and practicing splitting mechanics is SO helpful for this kind of strat. 3. Siege tanks are still nice to have for base defense, even if its only a few of them.
If you watch the replay and the vod of the last game i think that you can see why i would not advice to mix in anything else than pure bio when playing this style, just because you are not really able to afford it cause you will be low on ressources anyway and if you get 2 thors out which will most definitly die in after a battle cause of the sourround etc. costs you 12 marines which are really, really, important to have.
@blackpanther:
1. You can if you split perfectly. If you do need to retreat you can pick up anytime or just fly mostly the medivacs home and attack again with your macroed force.
2. Yes you need to have really, really well splitting especially on master level to be able to pull this one off.
3. I think in theory yes, but in practice you really need all minerals you can get for your mmm force and not for some tech. If you need tanks to defend your base you are most likely dead already.
Also another point i want to mention is that you need to be REALLY REALLY tight in the opening if you get 1 minute later with your medivac push or the cs push you will get CRUSHED and lose so you need to have your opening extremly crisp especially plating the factory down around 100 gas, reactor timing and not getting supplyblocked.
i watched all your new master replays..some observations that i have..
1) extremely important to save your medivac..it seems that if you lost 1 single engagement and got fungal all your medivacs then it's pretty much gg. 2) i'm surprised the game that you played with the rank 8 master zerg, he didn't put a single spire crawler in his bases even he saw that you had many medivacs 3) a few games, your opponents had extremely high gas/mineral and wanted to hold on for broodlord/ultralisk. you over ran him before he could get to tier 3 4) again...surprsied how they morph blings in front your mmm..and got killed multiple times.. 5) no flanking from your opponents
in gerenal, would you think that playing bio is like a snowball thing..you need to do damage with your first push..and you need to be ahead..if you're not ahead in your first push..you can't make it back..as you can't trade efficiently afterwards (zerg just overrun your army size or get to tier 3 units)
With tanks you can change the tide..once you have significant tank count due to the splash damage in one engagement. also you can argue you will lose your game if you get caught unsieged. but that would be applying the same to get caught being unsplit in playing bio. what's your view on this? Cheers.
I hope to be convinced to switch from tank marine rauder medivac to mmm too..
On August 07 2012 06:02 jlai wrote: i watched all your new master replays..some observations that i have..
1) extremely important to save your medivac..it seems that if you lost 1 single engagement and got fungal all your medivacs then it's pretty much gg. 2) i'm surprised the game that you played with the rank 8 master zerg, he didn't put a single spire crawler in his bases even he saw that you had many medivacs 3) a few games, your opponents had extremely high gas/mineral and wanted to hold on for broodlord/ultralisk. you over ran him before he could get to tier 3 4) again...surprsied how they morph blings in front your mmm..and got killed multiple times.. 5) no flanking from your opponents
in gerenal, would you think that playing bio is like a snowball thing..you need to do damage with your first push..and you need to be ahead..if you're not ahead in your first push..you can't make it back..as you can't trade efficiently afterwards (zerg just overrun your army size or get to tier 3 units)
With tanks you can change the tide..once you have significant tank count due to the splash damage in one engagement. also you can argue you will lose your game if you get caught unsieged. but that would be applying the same to get caught being unsplit in playing bio. what's your view on this? Cheers.
I hope to be convinced to switch from tank marine rauder medivac to mmm too..
I have to agree that playing bio is like a snowball and its a style thats very unfogiven for the terran.
First engagement is the most important moment in the game, and thats why forsake stated, thats you have to hit the timings correctly and not missing anything, cuz a sec of delay, can be a sec of him getting that 1 banling that blew all ur army
You are absolutly right. If you make ONE mistake (like get 15 units fungaled to death or hit by baneling afterwards) you are dead. And you have no chance of coming back like you with a good position with tanks.
Medivacs are your most im important unit but if you lose them you can build a second starport to try to come back, it is like 50/50 that you succeed or get overrunned.
This style of play is extremly (!) fragile and even a slight mistake (like losing 10 marines by not paying attentaion) can mean death which does not matter as the marine tank player that much.
It is vitaly important to prevent that by scanning ahead to see where what is and to get experienced enough to judge (!) if you can take the fight or need 1-2 more rounds of your bio.
The thing that makes zerg have kinda the same fragility (by far not so much as terran but some kind) is the gas spending. If they missjudgje and build too many / too few banelings / infestors / tech up too fast / slow you can overrun them at any point.
Another point is that you get really far behind if you do not get constant upgrades or float 1,5k + for more than 1 Minute. The reason is that you should be around even all the time with zerg (if zerg is decent) supplywise and if you float 2k you won't have the units to push againd and you'll lose.
To sum that up: Yes it is a snowball effect, if you miss a single thing for a significant amount of time (especially early game pushes) you will lose most certainly. And there is no coming back like with tanks (except if you drop like crazy, e.g. shakuras game).
You have alot mor opportunitys to fail. More than at any other point in any athor matchup with any other style and you will fail alot, but it is really rewarding to get the edge very slowly while pushing your multitasking to the max and improve.
Also you will remember any mistake (like getting fungaled) and will be alot more careful next time so it is the best style to improve your gameplay i think.
I think bio is a very fun and effecient way of punishing an over-greedy zerg but it is also without a doubt one of the hardest playstyles to pull off.
I know from experience that one engagement that you don't pay attention to can cost you your entire army and you really need to be able to split efficiently in order to make this work. HOWEVER because of these facts it is also a really good way to improve in my opinion because it is so unforgiving.
Well written guide, you obviously put a lot of effort into it so thank you! And also imo bio v zerg is the most fun to both play and watch
I love you right now. After playing around with it for 2 days it finally made me capable of beating top25 Masters Zergs and therefore pushed me right to my Masters Promotion! Thank you very, very much for this really cool guide.
Hey! i'm a high gold player who enjoys bio very much, and goes bio in all 3 matchups :D
i know that i should be focusing on macro and mechanics and such at my level, but i also know that with an only bio play, macro does not win me many games in tvz and tvp :p
i do have a few questions about bio and your build order:
1, i normally push out with 2 medivacs and do a stim +1 timing at 10 minutes, which works fine. I tried the combat shield timing, but unfortunately without medivacs, i sometimes get swarmed by a LOT of lings before i reach the third, and shortly lose the game after losing my entire marine army, as when the zerg pushes out i'd only have 2 medivacs and a few marines left over. does this happen to you?
2. why do you get +1 before factory? doesn't that delay your medivacs so much? i feel like medivacs are so important, and i tend to get them out as fast as possible.
3. i don't mind using a scan or two to scout an all in if i cannot hold the xel'naga watch tower, but what is the best place to scan? should i look for tech buildings in the main? count gas? or count workers? simply seeing a banneling nest and spawning pool does not really help me, as that could be a standard transition into taking a third OR a bust coming, but i have no way of checking the third without pushing out with my marine army :s. should i scan the third as well?
also, do you go bio in tvt? if so, can you tell me about your variation in BO in that matchup? i usually do a variation of bomber's tvp in tvt, but i get add ons slightly earlier if i don't scout a tank contain.
1) No that does not really happen to me. You have to look out for gas with your first scv. If he has taken gas it is very likely that he has speed so send the scv first or a marine to see the speedling count and decide if you can take them or not.
If he has so much lings that you do not think, that you can take them out just retreat, that is already enough dmg done. Otherwise positioning is really key (behind the mineral line, or at least hug a wall).
2) It is because you have to stay even on upgrades with zerg and delayed upgrades get you really bad trades the longer the game goes on. Also medivacs become more important the longer the game goes on, he first medivac timing is all about having more units and slightly delayde medivacs give you these units. Finally a high medivac count cuts into your units by a reasonable count, and it is just not worth it to delay upgrades for medivacs like that in the long run.
3) You can scan if you like (around 7min, the main, 2 gases long time mined? -> very likely allin) but you do not need to. You should have watchtower control due to your 3 marine poke and if you do not see these lings coming you should be able to scout, that there is no third base with your scv and react accordingly. You really need to get somewhat lucky to chek those lings but just scout around if you suspect an allin. Most importantly scout the third (either with your scv scout or a random marine).
I go marine tank in tvt as bio is niot really viable except vs mech (at least in my opinion).
On June 13 2012 10:41 Enemyy wrote: 1.0 Introduction If Zerg is also spot on with dropdefense while moving the bloords forward you have basically lost the game if t
On June 13 2012 10:41 Enemyy wrote: 1.0 Introduction If Zerg is also spot on with dropdefense while moving the bloords forward you have basically lost the game if t
Seriously though, Im thinking back to the time when I was asking if bio only was viable and getting yelled at by people because "Terran = siege tank, siege tank = terran" "If you dont use siege tanks you should just switch race" "Seriously? Just use siege tanks" etc etc etc and from fucking teamliquid nonetheless too. Really glad to see its poking its head out more and more now, although I must say bio only is super tiring and shouldnt be used over and over game after game X_X unless you are some serious gamer
Yeah I personally use bio in TvZ the majority of the time. It was funny on here to see lesser players advise Terrans to "Just use seige tanks", not realizing that seige tanks are awful.
It's great to see Bio rearing its head once again, and yet I know those same posters will offer the same sentiment about why Terrans continue to lose.
PM me how to defend 2 base all in zergling/bane/infestor (third hatch just for larva) it is almost impossible since they have the same upgrades or even better upg then you have bc of 2 fast evos
They won't beat them straight up but thin their numbers so much that the marines you produced meanwhile will be enough to kill the rest without the zerg getting any scouting or real dmg done. Sorry for the confusion.
Hi there, low/mid diamond terran here, using your build, it really does work like charm against fast 3rds of the zerg, sadly most zergs on my level seem to not be taking a fast third, but instead just tech up heavily on 2 bases (with fast speed [i guess 21 gas] ) and then take their third.
This results in either me risking to lose all those marines with the combatshield timing if he indeed goes heavily for units, or if i sit back and wait for the medivac timing his army usually is advanced/big enough to pretty much clean that up as well.
So i guess my question would be if there's anything that can be done against zergs who go for that style with the build, or if i should choose a different opening if i see the fast gas.
still looking for help against zergs with fast tech ... i tried skipping the combatshield push alltogether since it seems to be too risky, but that did not help either, zergs just have too much shit arround 12min and everything dies and i lose sometime 20 minutes later because most zergs never actually attack ._.
These zergies have no idea how fucking hard a 6 rax +1 armor (two techlab and 4 reactors) hits at 10 minutes and I see them doing all kinds of weird shit to hold it off.
For the record, I bring about 10 scvs with me. I abuse hold position.
I have always bio only in tvz, in all matchups really, but im starting to love tanks...i feel its the terran's trademark unit. So, while bio only may be good, i think its slowly becoming not so viable in tvz....its just so satisfying to see those infestors being shot down by powerful tank rounds and seeing those banelings splash thanks to your tanks lol
sorry for the late response but if you have trouble please post replays so i can have a look.
I was really busys last 2 months with study and university and stuff and will be next 2 weeks but plan to to be more active afterwards. sorry for the long time of none-responding.
just out of interest, any update to this build or does it still work fine? would also love to have some new replay if possible. the videos were great help btw
1) The Build works still fine no so no updates 2) New Replays may come in a few weeks, i had to take a break cause of university and now getting into sc2 again
@ 9-BiT:
It depends on your personal playstyle. I think that bf hellions can sometimes be worth it, especially vs a very ling focused player but they really cut into your early/midgame dps as marines do better there, especially before the bf is started. With the way the build works you could get bf after the medivacs and that may not be worth it. You can adjust to your personal prefrence there.
Thros on the other side are very expencive and after your bio gets cleaned up they are easily picked apart by zerglings.
I just uploaded a new Guide to how defend early zergling agression. Everyone who understands german should be very happy about it and all others could maybe learn something out of the video as well even if you do not understand what i am saying.
I've been playing around with this build and it's unnaturally strong. It propelled me from mid gold to high platinum and now I'm facing diamonds every now and then.
Before this, I was basically losing EVERY TvZ in the lategame because I never knew how to apply pressure in the early and mid game.
I've usually do the 4 rax (with the 1 rax fe) opener to be aggressive in the tvz matchup that taeja popularized, which was of course marine focused, and the first movement was around 7.10-7.30ish. with medics coming in at 9.30. But this seems equally as interesting. Love the naked rax idea to wall off rather than depots. I'll be sure to try this soon.
You move out when Combat Shield is Around 70% done, maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less, depending on the walk-distance to yours oponnent third. Also you do not move out if there is no third in sight.
The Medivac Push is the second push and it is highly adviced to move out right when you start the medivacs so that you can join the army with the medivacs half way cross map and attack as early as possible with them. The early you get there the better off you are. That's why the crisp opening is so important cause if you are behind like 1-2 minutes with your medivacs and therefore the push you will straight up lose the engagement cause zergs production capacity is too high.
Ok thanks a lot for this... I'm only platinum as of now. But this build is freakin awesome... It simply kills the platinum and diamond zerg foolproof 5 matches.
I love how you've given all sorts of options in the mid and late game describing what one should do in case of baneling busts or 2 base roach all-ins.
If you get just surrounded by speedlings then you were just not careful enough, even though you should have had scouted a gas opening!
If you get sourrounded that way in the open you are most definitly a bit behind and you must be very careful with your medivacs cause they will be banelings ready waiting.
But normally you should be very careful when scouting gas opening and not getting crushed like that.
If you socut a gasless opening you have to improve your micro if you still trade badly vs slow lings cause they are no threat even with queen support or sth like that. You can also always retreat of creep away from queens etc. and kite the slowlings to death.
tl:tr Be extra carefil vs gas openings and do not even move out if you do not scout a third by the time your cs is about 70% done. Vs gaseless opening you should be able to trade even if you stutterstep correctly.
do pre-splits, put marauders in front, and u're absolutely fine!!
If you have enough skill, after the pre-split, you can focus infestors with your marauders.. that's essential after a few battles, so the zerg player can't accumulate infestors... he will have to spend gas in new infestors the whole time.. so you will have bigger window before ultras/brood lords...
On October 19 2012 05:39 iamhope wrote: just spread before..
do pre-splits, put marauders in front, and u're absolutely fine!!
If you have enough skill, after the pre-split, you can focus infestors with your marauders.. that's essential after a few battles, so the zerg player can't accumulate infestors... he will have to spend gas in new infestors the whole time.. so you will have bigger window before ultras/brood lords...
gl
this
also a good trick is to poke with 5-6 units + a medivac at a time, stim them in and attack to bait fungals etc while splitting your army into smaller groups at the back. it's always better to lay out a concave and force him to attack into it than to stim your entire army offensively.
abuse hold position. if you can MAKE him attack into a field of splitted marines and marauders with vac support, his infestors will be useless, his lings will be greatly reduced in effectivity and his blings will have a much harder time getting good hits. also his ultras' splash will be diminished
If he gets BLs out, you need vikings to do this, or he'll poke you to death.
EPT
Splitting is really important here, too!
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