EPT[G] Only Bio in TvZ! - Page 4
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Stitch
Hong Kong134 Posts
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Qibla
Australia343 Posts
Sent my first 3 rines to the xel naga. After a few mins no 3rd taken and no lings run to xel naga so I assume all in and put down 4 bunkers. After a few more minutes no all in comes, so I scan his base. He's taken his 3rd now and has raced for infestores. Has about 8-10 infestors out. I go to push out to do some damage and get fungled to death. How should you go against scouting and countering this strategy? | ||
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
Use marauders attack squads (4 or 5 and stim) | ||
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SynergySC2
United States27 Posts
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dohgg
310 Posts
Till yesterday i used bomber bio style, which can be found on redbull battle grounds (bomber vs ostogy), or on GDstudios(bomber vs stepahno) Bomber build was alot more greedier, relayed on a strong 2-2 timing with a couple of techlabbed staports in the background, for a swift transition into skyterran vs hive. (seems playing bio, leaves you with alot of gas...) Basiclly, it was 1 rax fe, into 3 rax and 3rd gasless. then double gas - combat shield and double ebay. You might say that bomber's build feels abit 2 much passive, but its so eco strong, that once you move out on 2-2, you'll just never stop streaming bio all over the map, with more 8 rax with reactors and TLs pumping nonstop. The truth is.. i had alot of success with it, till yesterday, when i wanted to chekc it vs roachbane allin, told a zerg friend of mine to roach bane bust me every game (the strongest zerg allin that hits on 8-9 min), just to test out this build.. and i managed to stop it 1 time out of 5. so i dunno if i really have the confidence to ladder with that build anymore. Anyway.. Gonna check ur reps, and test that build. tnx. | ||
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forsakeNXE
Germany539 Posts
On June 19 2012 15:12 Qibla wrote: Just played a strange match. Sent my scouting scv to his 3rd after scouting his main. Single gas pool normal fe blah blah. Sent my first 3 rines to the xel naga. After a few mins no 3rd taken and no lings run to xel naga so I assume all in and put down 4 bunkers. After a few more minutes no all in comes, so I scan his base. He's taken his 3rd now and has raced for infestores. Has about 8-10 infestors out. I go to push out to do some damage and get fungled to death. How should you go against scouting and countering this strategy? Hi, if Zerg does an allin he in 9 out of 10 matches wants to get xel naga control. So if he does not, he almost always plays passivly. Also he then WANTS to trade zerglings versus your first marines as more passove and teching zergs will NOT, cause they want to keep them alive for later scouting to produce more drones. Also if you suspect an allin I strongly advice to use at least one scan in the main to click on the gas and see the tech and if still not sure, another one in front of the natural to see the zergling numbers. Also always keep a marine at the third or float your factory there to spot it, so he NEVER get's a suprising base up. In addition to that if you scan his main when you pushed with your combat shield, you can poke there and force some more lings, even if you lose your marines and trades vs lings. Finally keep an scv out on the map and patroul likely morphing spots of Zerg for banelings. With these informations you should be able to get a clear look of what he wants to do. Hope it helps. | ||
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KirA_TheGreaT
France204 Posts
Basically spores kill drops, and even if i destroyed like 4 hatches, i didn't trade ENOUGH so he had a lot of money... even if i was ahead broodlords and infestors just made him won the game because he just had too many. You really need to make him overproduce mid tier units. Good point is that i countered a lot of all-in, you need to scout it of course but bio is just too overpowered against all-in ! ( of course it requires good supply depots and like 3 bunkers but not in the front !!! ) | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On June 19 2012 23:17 KirA_TheGreaT wrote: Yeah, good style, most zergs aren't used to it yet... but one just countered me after the second match aha. Basically spores kill drops, and even if i destroyed like 4 hatches, i didn't trade ENOUGH so he had a lot of money... even if i was ahead broodlords and infestors just made him won the game because he just had too many. You really need to make him overproduce mid tier units. Good point is that i countered a lot of all-in, you need to scout it of course but bio is just too overpowered against all-in ! ( of course it requires good supply depots and like 3 bunkers but not in the front !!! ) This strategy is really geared more for direct pushes as opposed to lots of drops. Drops can still be effective. For instance if you snipe the evo chambers researching 2/2 you are in a really good spot. But if you drop too much your direct pushes become weaker. Infestor ling is a really good defensive build and sometimes those few medivacs were the difference between a favorable trade and losing your entire army for next to nothing. | ||
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ArnO-
United States258 Posts
I've been playing pure bio in all of my ladder games so far this season trying to get used to the timings, experimenting with different openings, and learning when to apply pressure since everything feels a lot different from marine/tank, but the style feels really fun to play and fun to watch so I want to keep practicing it. Here are a few the things I have noticed from my ladder games. I was around 1000 pt masters last season so you know what my skill level is roughly. In MKP's game against stephano from MLG he went straight into 3 rax after his cc skipping the hellions using the build suggested in this guide, but I don't find much success with that opening due to the inability to defend many allins which I have found common on ladder. I also found the initial move out with my first group of marines usually being ineffective and doing very little damage. Maybe faking the move out would be better, let the zerg see your army walk across the map so he reacts with ling production, then turn around and go back home would be better. I've found I have the most success opening gasless fe into reactor hellions into bio. Hellions might not be as powerful as they used to be since the queen buff, but they still give you some form of map control, they help vs some allins and are able to apply light pressure/some creep denial. I feel the 6 or so hellions make your initial 2 medivac bio push much more powerful if you can keep the hellions alive. I know the OP has one specific build mentioned in the guide, but most of the common TvZ openings can transition into bio. The biggest thing ive found with this style is you really need a strong economy so you can throw down tons of barracks in the midgame. This is true for all builds, but this style really revolves around putting on lots of pressure throughout the game and throwing waves and waves into the zerg which requires lots of production. Constant scv production, expanding quickly, and adding on lots of barracks in time is extremely important. Once your on 4+ bases the you should have an absurd amount of barracks so you can trade armies and have another army ready to go onto the map. I found 8-10 barracks to be not enough and went up to around 15-20 barracks in a couple of my games when on 4+ bases. With that many barracks as soon as an army died I had another army already ready to go moments later to keep the pressure on. Like everyone else has said keeping the medivacs alive is one of the most important things. With 15+ medivacs I felt like I was capable of winning battles I shouldn't have even in moments where I didn't spread out perfectly. If you have some apm to spare during battles try to keep your medivacs spread out slightly instead of clumped up which they tend to do sometimes so they don't get hit by chain fungals. If your economy can support it building a second reactor starport for extra medivac production might be interesting and will prepare your production for dealing with broodlords once hive is out. This may be overdoing it though. I noticed MVPDream kept his 1 factory producing blueflame hellions throughout most of his games, I think if you keep 4-8 bf hellions in your army all the time the splash dmg can make a difference vs zergling heavy styles, it felt like it at least in my games when I had battles with hellions compared to battles without hellions. Like everyone else has mentioned your success hinges on your control, but I don't think it requires mkp level of micro to execute. Keep your marauders in the front of your army and keep your marines prespread out in small groups behind the marauders before the battle even starts, once the battle starts spread out the marines even more. If you have apm to spare then try to keep your medivacs spread out so they dont all die to chain fungals in case you do lose the battle. Also try to time your drops so they occur the same time every single battle takes place, eventually one of them will do damage and it will really stress the zergs multitasking even more then you are already doing with this high pressure oriented style. Its overall a fun style to play imo. I'm not sure if its better than the standard marine/tank since it seems like most pro terrans are still making tanks, even MKP transitions into tanks eventually in most of his games I have seen, but I am going to keep practicing it. Hopefully more pro terrans experiment with it because I am interested in seeing what builds they open with and how well it performs vs code s level zergs. | ||
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Hiflon
Denmark22 Posts
Very well written guide, thanks a lot! | ||
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forsakeNXE
Germany539 Posts
On June 21 2012 02:40 Hiflon wrote: I don't know if it's a mistake but there's no starport in the build order. Very well written guide, thanks a lot! fixed | ||
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Daniel C
Hong Kong1606 Posts
Also, since you will likely pass a watchtower on the way to the third, the zerg can make just the right number of speedlings to kill your squad (since you basically can't retreat), and can drone heavily on 3 bases while you're just getting a third....help! | ||
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forsakeNXE
Germany539 Posts
The most important thing is to keep the marines in the back of the mineralline, or, if caught before you can move there, to hug the wall and stutterstep back. Normally if you do not amove but give normal move-command you most likely will get behind the mineral line just when 2 round of zerglings finish and want to hit your marines. Recently i started to send 3 Marines forward to the xel naga tower on certain maps like antiga shipyard to take it back before the zerg can see all the other marines. Sometimes that works and zerg throws down some more drones, sometimes it does not. In any case positioning behind the mineral line is key here. Edit: Also i am currently trying out of it is not better to leave the marines behind the minerals and not try to retreat once the hatch is canceled. Cause you ware in a much better position to trade efficently there instead of getting caught on the backfoot. That would mean no creep denial after canceling the hatch and no chance to join up with the rest of the force, so i am a bit undecided at the moment  | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On June 19 2012 15:48 SynergySC2 wrote: how come no 1 every goes cc first the metagame right now in tvz is usually hatch first so cc first at 15 supply with a follow up of 2 rax is good i do it every tvz and win my tvz winrate is really high right now not sure what my % is though i went from mid diamond to high diamond with cc first and now am rank 1 beating mid masters The reasoning is that if you play this way in an open bracket tournament, you will lose 100% of the time to some scrub 6-pooling or baneling busting. In higher tournaments doing a Bo3 series or Bo5, CC first is totally acceptable, but if you want to play competitively, you need to rely primarily on 1rax FE. | ||
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immanentblue
Denmark110 Posts
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SynergySC2
United States27 Posts
On June 21 2012 19:20 SC2John wrote: The reasoning is that if you play this way in an open bracket tournament, you will lose 100% of the time to some scrub 6-pooling or baneling busting. In higher tournaments doing a Bo3 series or Bo5, CC first is totally acceptable, but if you want to play competitively, you need to rely primarily on 1rax FE. oops double post | ||
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SynergySC2
United States27 Posts
On June 21 2012 19:55 SynergySC2 wrote: you can def hold 6 pool with just scvs but with all drones is a different story because lings dont have enough dps and u have enough scvs to hold it and baneling busts are easy to hold iv holded it numerous times build bunkers next to ccs and build a barracks where the bust will hit and only lings will be left baneling will be soaked on buildings but if some are left just split or even presplit before bust | ||
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dohgg
310 Posts
1. Scenraio: I control my xelnaga, have an scv on his 3rd position, the time is 7 min no 3rd.. 7:30 no 3rd. Basic logic saying that theres an obvious reason not to leave me by base with a combat shiled push.. but what should be my excat respond? build a bunker? getting an earlier 3rd? trying to scan? still going out with combat shiled and +1? the thing is.. not all zergs are responding to 1 rax fe with 5:30-6:30 3rd, i just had a game vs master z who took his 3rd on 9 min, while some zergs will go for a bane busts on 7 min.. or roach bane busts on 9 min.. which in these cases.. moving out is stupid... 2. Some zerg will always get an early bane defence.. even if they 6 min 3rd.. what do u do if ur combat shiled push was demolished really uneffectivley.. i mean.. as you mentioned on ur post, i start build my 3rd on 11-12 min. well zerg's 3rd on 6 min vs my 3rd on 12 min.. seems like i'll never be able to produce enough to have any kind of real pressure. | ||
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forsakeNXE
Germany539 Posts
On June 22 2012 00:05 dohgg wrote: I have a couple of questions after trying this build many times. 1. Scenraio: I control my xelnaga, have an scv on his 3rd position, the time is 7 min no 3rd.. 7:30 no 3rd. Basic logic saying that theres an obvious reason not to leave me by base with a combat shiled push.. but what should be my excat respond? build a bunker? getting an earlier 3rd? trying to scan? still going out with combat shiled and +1? the thing is.. not all zergs are responding to 1 rax fe with 5:30-6:30 3rd, i just had a game vs master z who took his 3rd on 9 min, while some zergs will go for a bane busts on 7 min.. or roach bane busts on 9 min.. which in these cases.. moving out is stupid... 2. Some zerg will always get an early bane defence.. even if they 6 min 3rd.. what do u do if ur combat shiled push was demolished really uneffectivley.. i mean.. as you mentioned on ur post, i start build my 3rd on 11-12 min. well zerg's 3rd on 6 min vs my 3rd on 12 min.. seems like i'll never be able to produce enough to have any kind of real pressure. @ first scenario: Obviously you want to scan. If you do not see a trhid around 7-7:30 you should strongly suspect an allin so what you do right that second: start building 4 bunkers patrouling an scv in front of you ramp to pull scvs to repair in time scouting with one marine around locations where those banelings could morph after starting those 4 bunkers you should also scan his main (try to see everything if possible even behind the minerals to spot a baneling nest). You want to look for a) Banelingnest b) Roach warren (-> Marauder in Bunker not in front) c) gas count (click and see how much ins mined) d) ling count e) Evo chambers If you see evochambers / low gas count / not much lings / no roach warren it is either a relativly week all in or none. If you do not see a baneling nest and still suspect an allin scan the natural. Now you should be able to fully confirm if there is an allin coming. You have to see the baneling nest now if there is one at all, also you can see the ling count (no lings -> your scounting marine will find them). If you can judge now that an allin is coming react accordingly: man bunkers ( all bunkers with 4 units to absob banelings asap!) pull scvs scout around raise walll do not move out etc. if there is none coming you can cancle the bunkers before even finishing them and just delay your push till your first 2/4 medivacs are out to neglate any early banelings or lings etc.and having a save escape route. It can be tricky to make the right decision and i still sometimes overlook an allin and lose but the more games you play the more you see those tiny little differences and yu will get to know when you need to be more defensive and when to push out. 2) If zerg is prepared you have 2 choices: a) go regardless and trade (see one of my last 2 replays where he got a decent number of banelings) to trade the banelings so they are gone and he has more to morph) b) retreat and wait for medivacs for a stronger push afterwards. Normally zerg has not enough units to counter your push if he went for a fast 3rd. Even if he does your push denys drones beeing build to saturate that immediatly which is great. If he has build alot of units = great! retread and rejoice of having done damage without even engaging. Then begin rentless agression once medivacs are out. Hope it helped. Edit: Also what i really want you to notice is that you just push out! Espically in the first ~15 Minutes when infestors are not out you can just push all the time and trade, pick up, heal up, go again etc. but if you give zerg like 2-3 free drone rounds after the 10 Minute mark you will lose cause zerg has maximum amount of drones and only needs to produce lings now so you'r pressure is not effective. JUST PUSH :D It's hard to get out of the defensive mentality after a push get's crushed when you played marine tank alot but it's really necessary to be agressive all the time and trade units even if it seems bad you can imagine killing drones instead of lings cause he has to build stuff and not drones. | ||
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
HOWEVER.... .... Now I just cannot simply win, because in the guide you say to move out wirh marines early to deny his 3rd. I cannot. He already has ling bling before taking 3rd. If this is the case, what do I do? Cant believe I cannot find....was winning 10 in a row just a few days ago.. Basically I cannot snipe his 3rd. even without bling, his ling coutn is really high to kill my marines.. | ||
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