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On October 05 2012 21:27 Crosswind wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 12:37 sanddbox_sc2 wrote:On October 05 2012 11:48 Crosswind wrote:
Question: Why does the system believe that m and n are easier keys to press (PRM layout) than U or H?
Moving little finger down there seems harder than hitting H (little finger left) or U (ring finger left). Am I alone in this belief?
-Cross (Slight edit to make sure I didn't sound too indignant - I <3 this system and am just curious/want to help) I had the same misgivings, but once you have them practiced M and N are both extremely easy to hit. No doubt that, as I practice more, keys will become easy to hit. And I realize the absurdity of arguing that things are easier - it's different for everybody. Still, we're trying to figure out a universal easiest, sooo... Given that the resting place of the rest of your fingers is IOP, it seems like the little finger on U (Which would put all of your fingers in a line) would be the easiest key that the little finger could hit other than J. M and N are 2 keys away from the resting position of the rest of your fingers. U is 1 key away. I can understand arguments against H ("It spreads out your hand"). U seems sort of obvious, and the fact that it's at the bottom of the priority pile, below M, N and even H does not compute for me. With practice, I'm sure it'll be easy to hit M and N, but for the purposes of system design, I'm wondering why they were prioritized. -Cross
Little finger on U is actually a lot harder than little finger on M/N. If you rest your hand on IOP (with your keyboard tilted properly) you'll find that J is very natural, and to hit M or N you simply have to curl up your pinky a bit, while I cannot hit U without moving my hand forward slightly.
If you keep your keyboard in a straight line then yes, U is natural, but with a small tilt N and M are way easier (for me anyway).
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Why were keys placed in a certain priority?
This is a question with a long answer, one that we'll release with evidence and detail in the future. For now I'll try to outline the basic principles with which we organized the keys into a priority.
Reach - The further away the key is from the home position, the longer it takes to press.
(self explanatory)
Knuckle Separation - the more separated your knuckles are when pressing a key, the longer it takes to press.
(the human hand is best suited for curling and extending motion. Stretching the fingers horizontally apart from each other causes stress in the hand is therefore less comfortable and slower than curling and extending. This is the same reason for the tilt of the keyboard, as it takes out some of the knuckle separation.)
Wrist Rotation/Slide - The more the wrist has to move to press a key, the longer it takes to press
(the wrist should be flat both on the vertical and horizontal axis. The more bend in the wrist the more stress on it. From this ideal resting position, movements of the wrist will both increase the stress on the wrist as well as the time it takes to press the key.)
Tilted Press - The more a key has to be pressed at an angle (from the side, or curled so much that you press the key with the nail), the more stress it puts on your hand to press it.
(keys are best pressed with the pad of the finger, hitting it with another part of the finger will be uncomfortable and cause stress)
There were a couple of other criteria that I can't remember off the top of my head, but these should answer the question about U.
You should actually be pressing U with your ring finger. Make sure you have a proper tilt in your keyboard and try pressing the U key with both the pinky and the ring finger. You will notice the significantly greater amount of wrist rotation when pressing this key with the pinky. Still, hitting it with the ring finger causes knuckle separation which is not desirable. However, the ring finger is the way to go on this one, better to separate the knuckles a reasonable amount than have to have that much writst rotation every time you press the U key. Compare that to the M key (which, when trained will actually be one of the fastest keys in your arsenal) No wrist movement, no knuckle separation and a reach of only 1 key. It is likely that your pinky is not trained for this kind of dexterity, most people's aren't. But when you do train it, you'll start to feel the power.
I hope that makes sense, Foxy was the main ergonomics guy, so he could probably do a better job explaining that kind of stuff.
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Cross, I have to disagree with you. Even if the keyboard was level, JIOP is a more natural position than UIOP since the pinky finger is shorter. With the keyboard at about a 25 degrees CW, I can't even reach the U key with my pinky if I don't move the pivot point of my hand. Instead, I rotate my hand CCW to press U with my ring finger. To press M with my pinky, I don't have to move the pivot of my hand and all my other fingers can stay in their resting position. To press N or H with my pinky, I have to rotate my hand CCW a small amount but not as much as with U.
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I'll guess im open to try this.  Thanks again
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On October 06 2012 03:09 JaKaTaK wrote:
Why were keys placed in a certain priority?
This is a question with a long answer, one that we'll release with evidence and detail in the future. For now I'll try to outline the basic principles with which we organized the keys into a priority.
Reach - The further away the key is from the home position, the longer it takes to press.
(self explanatory)
Knuckle Separation - the more separated your knuckles are when pressing a key, the longer it takes to press.
(the human hand is best suited for curling and extending motion. Stretching the fingers horizontally apart from each other causes stress in the hand is therefore less comfortable and slower than curling and extending. This is the same reason for the tilt of the keyboard, as it takes out some of the knuckle separation.)
Wrist Rotation/Slide - The more the wrist has to move to press a key, the longer it takes to press
(the wrist should be flat both on the vertical and horizontal axis. The more bend in the wrist the more stress on it. From this ideal resting position, movements of the wrist will both increase the stress on the wrist as well as the time it takes to press the key.)
Tilted Press - The more a key has to be pressed at an angle (from the side, or curled so much that you press the key with the nail), the more stress it puts on your hand to press it.
(keys are best pressed with the pad of the finger, hitting it with another part of the finger will be uncomfortable and cause stress)
There were a couple of other criteria that I can't remember off the top of my head, but these should answer the question about U.
You should actually be pressing U with your ring finger. Make sure you have a proper tilt in your keyboard and try pressing the U key with both the pinky and the ring finger. You will notice the significantly greater amount of wrist rotation when pressing this key with the pinky. Still, hitting it with the ring finger causes knuckle separation which is not desirable. However, the ring finger is the way to go on this one, better to separate the knuckles a reasonable amount than have to have that much writst rotation every time you press the U key. Compare that to the M key (which, when trained will actually be one of the fastest keys in your arsenal) No wrist movement, no knuckle separation and a reach of only 1 key. It is likely that your pinky is not trained for this kind of dexterity, most people's aren't. But when you do train it, you'll start to feel the power.
I hope that makes sense, Foxy was the main ergonomics guy, so he could probably do a better job explaining that kind of stuff.
First, thanks for the completely baller explanation. I figured a lot of thought had been put into this, so it's good to hear. Second, I think my confusion came from the fact that wrist movement, coming from somebody who was using the standard hotkeys a week ago, is a totally normal thing - I wasn't even considering it.
That was the answer I was looking for - thanks!
-Cross
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I'm assuming, based on the visual aids, that the home keys for the v0.5 large right hand layout are HUIO instead of JIOP, correct?
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Have a minor suggestion for TRM: 'U' creates a tech lab on a finished rax, but 'U' also halts construction on a rax that is currently being built. This is a problem!
This overlap frequently causes me to accidentally halt construction on production facilities (when I'm in a hurry to build a tech lab). E.g., I'm waiting for a rax to finish so I can start a tech lab, and if I press 'U' too early (i.e. before the rax is finished building), then the SCV just stops building it entirely, delaying it further.
I would suggest having these on different hotkeys. Also, 'halt construction' is so rarely used that I think it makes sense to put it on a more remote key, to further reduce the likelihood of these kinds of mishaps.
P.S. I'm about a month into using the core and I'm really liking it a lot!
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@LessPew
Correct :D
@Thunderflesh
I had no idea, will get on that
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ZRM .5
After much raging, I have to say I really like the new setup. I have only 2 concerns.
Alt P for adding queens centers the camera. It feels a bit disruptive when doing any mass queen style to realign the camera every time I add a queen to the group. I have disabled alt center on camera because of this. The alternative is using ctrl K to add to the group. I still have slight imparement between K and L in my head, though I have it rebound I haven't gotten used to it and am not using it much. Perhaps as I improve I will be able to change the center on selection hotkey back to alt.
Harder to group multiple control groups. Normally I could just hold shift and select every control group I want to move. Now I have to move them all individually. It's not a major deal, but since we are going for efficiency... If I want to crush an attack I now have to hold shift, hit control group, attack. Repeat per group. Before I could just hold shift, select all groups then attack. Attack is now repeated for every group that has to attack, it's a slight knock in efficiency.
Overall, I think the new hotkey layout is way better then the standard starcraft setup, or any custom hotkeys I have ever used. This also includes previous versions of the core such as .33. My only complaint is that my brain doesn't remap things as quickly as I would like 
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I'm ambidextrous Dvorak Keyboard user, and spent 40-60+ hours to create the most efficient hotkeys.
My control groups 6-0 were moved to QWERT to get close to "SHIFT" and every ability keys were set in ASDFG and ZXCVB.
Also made Alt to have the same function as Ctrl for creating groups.
I quit StarCraft in April 2012 when because of hotkey frustration, and where Zerg keys were too different from Terran and Protoss. This was around the time you were developing new keyboard layout, which I couldn't really wait for. But now it's near completion at version 0.5, and I'm very eager to learn in the next few weeks!
I will come back with a critical feedback =]
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Hey not sure if this has been brought to attention yet. But i play terran and i find that L for lifting buildlings gets hit by mistake or is it just me? have others complained about this? and are you working on a solution
thanks
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On October 08 2012 06:20 Deakn wrote:
Hey not sure if this has been brought to attention yet. But i play terran and i find that L for lifting buildlings gets hit by mistake or is it just me? have others complained about this? and are you working on a solution
thanks
Its actually a test to see if you're a human being. Congrats, you've passed
But seriously, i'm pretty sure everyone does that when learning TheCore. Give it some time and focus on accuracy and it'll go away
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On October 08 2012 13:03 JaKaTaK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 06:20 Deakn wrote:
Hey not sure if this has been brought to attention yet. But i play terran and i find that L for lifting buildlings gets hit by mistake or is it just me? have others complained about this? and are you working on a solution
thanks
Its actually a test to see if you're a human being. Congrats, you've passed But seriously, i'm pretty sure everyone does that when learning TheCore. Give it some time and focus on accuracy and it'll go away
Indeed, I lifted all my CCs multiple times while learning TheCore. But you can persevere, Deakn! After 100 games or so now, I can't remember the last-time I hit lift by mistake.
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Hey Thanks for the responce! Im barely lifting off anymore after a few hours or practice.
I got a few more Questions JIOP feels good for resting my fingers on as a base. Im using the Right handed Small Finger Use.
The picture that maps out which fingers to use shows to use I=Ring Finger Which works
O=Ring Finger Which seems odd my middle finger rests on O when at JIOP ( Should i be using my Ring or Middle Ringe?) I Find when i use My ring finger i lose my positioning easy but this is becuase im just new
P=Middle Finger but when im at JIOP my Index finger is on P.
Id rather learn the best way to do it then have to learn all over again
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Resting on JIOP is for the medium layouts, small rests on KOP[ and large on HUIO (everything gets moved left/right by one key). If you want to rest on JIOP you should use the medium layout.
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Oh that makes more sense thanks
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******************************************** TheCore 0.5 beta Review ********************************************
After intense learning & training with both Left and Right hands.
by Executerror 271 both SEA & NA
Zerg Diamond (1vs1) Masters (2vs2, 3vs3, 4vs4 Team Random)
ZRM Right hand --- 4/5
The power of TheCore is in utilization of thumb on Ctrl and Shift - this the only reason why it's on the right side of keyboard.
However, the amount of tilt for the keyboard is ridiculous. You have to give yourself a good 30 degrees instead of 10. Keyboard designers should take blame for placing the bottom & top row buttons at mid-line from center row, it's just stupid even for typing.
ZLM Left hand --- 5/5 THE BEST
It's so beautiful. ZRM must be the mirror image of ZLM, not vice versa. This has to be the original!
LM has no tilting problems because the angle suits the right hand on the keyboard. The left hand keys are the most ergonomic layout available for StarCraft II and possibly can extend to PC games requiring Shift and Ctrl. I'm naturally a right hander who plays SCII with right hand, so this is not biased (but I usually play Dota 2 with left hand on the mouse).
GENERAL CRITIC
In-built camera queen injection method is amazing and overcomes individual hatchery or the unreliable backspace method. This should effectively free up 3-4 hotkeys, which it did. However these free buttons are still taken up by control groups.
Advance build on "=" seem to be the least optimal stretch, like pressing 6 using left hand from typing position.
6 Control groups is enough
8 Control groups is plenty
10 Control groups is EXCESSIVE
Ten is the most shitty number humanity has ever come to use, we should be counting in Twelves.
Majority of top players (yes, you name it) use maximum 2 control groups for their army, often 3rd for spell-casters but 4th is very much non-existent. Despite this, all CGs are taking up too precious buttons. So my suggestion is,
** Remove two of CGs (ie. - [ ] ' ) to be replaced by non-CG buttons (such as N,M or , )
CONCLUSION
TheCore is worth learning and worth the hard effort. You will get a huge return for using it.
At the end, you will adjust few keys to fit your style. For me, A-move is sufficient without needing Stop for stutter step.
IF you're unhappy about tilting and don't mind becoming ambidextrous, I strongly suggest you to switch hands - left hand on the mouse, right hand on the keyboard. This does not mean you won't get fullest out of TheCore, but it will completely solve all the tilting problems.
*Acknowledgement to all TheCore developers,
Special thanks for creating Key Remapping program - it made my Dvorak Keyboard conversion so much easier.
Lastly, thanks for actually taking action against the cursed default SCII layout. I wish you all the best in making this layout a-must-have for SCII pro-gamers.
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On October 09 2012 00:47 Executerror wrote:+ Show Spoiler +******************************************** TheCore 0.5 beta Review ********************************************
After intense learning & training with both Left and Right hands.
by Executerror 271 both SEA & NA
Zerg Diamond (1vs1) Masters (2vs2, 3vs3, 4vs4 Team Random)
ZRM Right hand --- 4/5
The power of TheCore is in utilization of thumb on Ctrl and Shift - this the only reason why it's on the right side of keyboard.
However, the amount of tilt for the keyboard is ridiculous. You have to give yourself a good 30 degrees instead of 10. Keyboard designers should take blame for placing the bottom & top row buttons at mid-line from center row, it's just stupid even for typing.
ZLM Left hand --- 5/5 THE BEST
It's so beautiful. ZRM must be the mirror image of ZLM, not vice versa. This has to be the original!
LM has no tilting problems because the angle suits the right hand on the keyboard. The left hand keys are the most ergonomic layout available for StarCraft II and possibly can extend to PC games requiring Shift and Ctrl. I'm naturally a right hander who plays SCII with right hand, so this is not biased (but I usually play Dota 2 with left hand on the mouse).
GENERAL CRITIC
In-built camera queen injection method is amazing and overcomes individual hatchery or the unreliable backspace method. This should effectively free up 3-4 hotkeys, which it did. However these free buttons are still taken up by control groups.
Advance build on "=" seem to be the least optimal stretch, like pressing 6 using left hand from typing position.
6 Control groups is enough
8 Control groups is plenty
10 Control groups is EXCESSIVE
Ten is the most shitty number humanity has ever come to use, we should be counting in Twelves.
Majority of top players (yes, you name it) use maximum 2 control groups for their army, often 3rd for spell-casters but 4th is very much non-existent. Despite this, all CGs are taking up too precious buttons. So my suggestion is,
** Remove two of CGs (ie. - [ ] ' ) to be replaced by non-CG buttons (such as N,M or , )
CONCLUSION
TheCore is worth learning and worth the hard effort. You will get a huge return for using it.
At the end, you will adjust few keys to fit your style. For me, A-move is sufficient without needing Stop for stutter step.
IF you're unhappy about tilting and don't mind becoming ambidextrous, I strongly suggest you to switch hands - left hand on the mouse, right hand on the keyboard. This does not mean you won't get fullest out of TheCore, but it will completely solve all the tilting problems.
*Acknowledgement to all TheCore developers,
Special thanks for creating Key Remapping program - it made my Dvorak Keyboard conversion so much easier.
Lastly, thanks for actually taking action against the cursed default SCII layout. I wish you all the best in making this layout a-must-have for SCII pro-gamers.
Holy shit man, thanks so much for the thorough review. As far as the versions for Left and Right hands go, there is no original. We developed both simultaneously. But as far as the tilt goes, I have to agree, the left is superior. Really, keyboards should be completely redesigned, IMO. Also, on many keyboards, the right side has 2 keys inbetween alt and control, while the right has only one, making alt an easier button to press. The other advantage is that there is minimal space inbetween your mouse and keyboard hand when using the left handed version, making the hands easier to coordinate.
I have to disagree with Control Groups though. I am willing to bet that as time goes on, you'll see the pros using more and more control groups, especially for harass.
Thanks again
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Hello i'd just like to make a suggestion / receive an analysis of my use of control groups (why yes, why no advantages and disadvantages etc) and would appreciate any feedback. This may be useful for others.
Currently as Protoss using PRMM i use hot keys as such:
M5 - nexus + upgrade buildings
M4 - gateways (often include robo and stargate on here once I have more than a single gate)
8 - all upgrade buildings (can be used on single buildings to check for completion timings in conjunction with M5 for all upgrades
9 - robotics bay
0 - stargate
Yes I am using the tap method M5 > M4 > 8 > 9 > 0 to check the timings on units. I find this very efficient early to mid game and also allows more control and works well in conjunction with pressing alt then chrono boosting. There are many different things you can do but this is the core of the idea.
P - army1 (generally zealots, immortals, sentries, archons etc)
O - army2 (generally stalkers)
L - scout
; - army 3 (collusus, templar etc)
" - Harass (often used on buildings e.g. first gas purely to check for timings, it's a flexible key)
One thing I don't like is not having a control group to control the whole army for reactionary retreating when you spot something on the mini map. However I don't feel otherwise my micro is limited due to the easy of hitting shift and control with good accuracy and speed.
Just a quick Q: is the mouse version of the hot key setups allowed in major tournaments such as the GSL?
Any feedback is appreciated and thank you to the developers of such an innovative hot-key system
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as far as tournaments are concerned, I'm pretty sure most tournaments are fine with it. Would be fine for MLG, and likely the rest.
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EPT
