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On September 15 2012 11:11 j.k.l wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 11:09 JaKaTaK wrote:On September 15 2012 10:13 j.k.l wrote:On September 15 2012 06:47 JaKaTaK wrote:On September 15 2012 06:01 j.k.l wrote:
if i don't have the right keyboard, or i can't pull out keys, which layout should i head for?
can you guys discuss on that and yeah help me decide? foxy said that dark grid is better and specifically suggest to use his layout on his post. Jatakak has different opinions that his is better, but seriously one has to be better... like how thecore is better than both. You guys make it sound like picking races all over again... Its like picking races all over again. I think our biggest difference is that Foxy believes that the better way to use the mouse is with macro on the 4th and 5th mouse buttons. While I believe those buttons should stick to the keyboard. Other than that, the differences are pretty plain, different home keys, different types of commands on the homekeys (abilites vs control groups). Both have layered cameras. I say try both and use the one you like best, or analyze both and choose the one you think is more efficient. Both will be updated for HotS and both will be supported by either Foxy or I. Up to you. First of all thank you for the response. You know what you guys should do? make a different layout who won't be able to follow specific changes such as changing the angle of key board or keys being pulled out. Like combine dark grid and chameleon and make a more efficient layout considering they are quite outdated after what you guys have learned making and developing the core. Thanks! Maybe.. we'll see. Also, I read every post on the Darkgrid thread, so no need to double post unless you want to :D kk sorry i thought you didn't like the darkgrid  . My bad lol.
I don't really have strong feeling for or against darkgrid. If people put me to the question whether I think my layout or darkgrid is more efficient, I say mine. I wouldn't have made mine if I thought darkgrid was more efficient. For me, TheCore just blows both of them out of the water in such a major way that debating the pros and cons of Darkgrid seems silly.
Perhaps we will make a Core(lite)... we will see.
EDIT: We should have TheCore 0.5 HotS available with, or shortly after the release of TheCore 0.5, get your swarm hosts ready 
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On September 15 2012 02:46 JaKaTaK wrote:
...Concerning "tapping" as zerg, I think that the optimal method is to have an injecting queen control group, inject with them, and keep injecting. If you inject within 1 second of "on time" you will be able to know when to inject based on queen energy. If you are injecting on time, the inject will finish before the queen has enough energy to inject. It may not happen to you now, but I'm a big fan of looking forward and setting myself up for a method that will be the most efficient all the way down the road.
:D
The major problem with using queen energy as an indicator of inject is the fact that any delay at any point of the game will mean you are no longer in sync with your hatch, so you can have the energy but the hatch is still gestating the previous injection. Once this happens iit will continue with said queen for the entire game, this is most evident for lower level player who miss injects just becuse they forget but will also happen at highest levels due to queens switching hatches, dying, transfusing or any other reason for a delayed/aborted inject.
Once your group has multiple queens you can no longer actually see the queens energy, you're only visual indication is the larave inject button changeing color, which in order to see you have to look bottom-right which is bad and it can be misleading as one queen with energy will lock it as on no matter the condition of the other queens. That means you can't add support queens to this group at any point.
The larave timer on the hatch is always spot-on. and is a larger visual indicator that does not have to be 'read' llike a number but can be glanced at for an aproximate read.
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IcemanAsi is 100% correct. We need to look for optimum solutions, but they should also be fault tolerant. Using a queens energy is good until something screws up your rhythm, and then it becomes a worthless measure.
On another note, as for injecting with base-cams, here is a slightly slower method that is useful to use in conjunction with the method Jakatak recommends.
1) shift-p (base 1 cam)
2) draw box around everything near middle of screen (queen will be the first subgroup if you happened to select units too)
3) hit O and click the hatchery
YES, this is more work than the prescribed method. Jakatak's inject method is superior, but I think it's good to be proficient at both ways in case the game is hectic and your queen control groups aren't set up properly for a moment. I also find "my way" useful at the start of the game as soon as the queens are born. I can inject first, then setup the queen control group.
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The major problem with using queen energy as an indicator of inject is the fact that any delay at any point of the game will mean you are no longer in sync with your hatch, so you can have the energy but the hatch is still gestating the previous injection. Once this happens iit will continue with said queen for the entire game, this is most evident for lower level player who miss injects just becuse they forget but will also happen at highest levels due to queens switching hatches, dying, transfusing or any other reason for a delayed/aborted inject.
Actually, with each "on time" inject your queen will be 2 energy lower each time. So if you get behind, you can catch backup. But I do see your point for the lower level players. What I do is use the energy when i'm on time, and use the hatchery CG (by clicking on the first hatchery in the group) to see the progress. I really don't like cutting into my control groups when I don't have to.
Once your group has multiple queens you can no longer actually see the queens energy, you're only visual indication is the larave inject button changeing color, which in order to see you have to look bottom-right which is bad and it can be misleading as one queen with energy will lock it as on no matter the condition of the other queens. That means you can't add support queens to this group at any point.
If you hover over your queens in the wireframe with game tooltips enabled you can see the energy. I do this to keep tabs on how close I am to injecting.
@defcube
I think that clicking on the queen is faster. Also it gives you a opportunity to practice mouse accuracy. In addition I add my queens into my injecting queen CG as I inject with them for the first time.
Thanks for all the thoughtful feedback :D
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On September 15 2012 12:36 JaKaTaK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 11:11 j.k.l wrote:On September 15 2012 11:09 JaKaTaK wrote:On September 15 2012 10:13 j.k.l wrote:On September 15 2012 06:47 JaKaTaK wrote:On September 15 2012 06:01 j.k.l wrote:
if i don't have the right keyboard, or i can't pull out keys, which layout should i head for?
can you guys discuss on that and yeah help me decide? foxy said that dark grid is better and specifically suggest to use his layout on his post. Jatakak has different opinions that his is better, but seriously one has to be better... like how thecore is better than both. You guys make it sound like picking races all over again... Its like picking races all over again. I think our biggest difference is that Foxy believes that the better way to use the mouse is with macro on the 4th and 5th mouse buttons. While I believe those buttons should stick to the keyboard. Other than that, the differences are pretty plain, different home keys, different types of commands on the homekeys (abilites vs control groups). Both have layered cameras. I say try both and use the one you like best, or analyze both and choose the one you think is more efficient. Both will be updated for HotS and both will be supported by either Foxy or I. Up to you. First of all thank you for the response. You know what you guys should do? make a different layout who won't be able to follow specific changes such as changing the angle of key board or keys being pulled out. Like combine dark grid and chameleon and make a more efficient layout considering they are quite outdated after what you guys have learned making and developing the core. Thanks! Maybe.. we'll see. Also, I read every post on the Darkgrid thread, so no need to double post unless you want to :D kk sorry i thought you didn't like the darkgrid . My bad lol. I don't really have strong feeling for or against darkgrid. If people put me to the question whether I think my layout or darkgrid is more efficient, I say mine. I wouldn't have made mine if I thought darkgrid was more efficient. For me, TheCore just blows both of them out of the water in such a major way that debating the pros and cons of Darkgrid seems silly. Perhaps we will make a Core(lite)... we will see. EDIT: We should have TheCore 0.5 HotS available with, or shortly after the release of TheCore 0.5, get your swarm hosts ready
thank you. for some reason foxy isn't that active on this thread anymore or is that just me...
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I'm not very active because I'm busy. Thankfully, most questions can be answered by long-time users or JaK. If I'm needed for anything, JaK get's in touch with me.
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Is there any ETA for 0.5?
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On September 17 2012 03:13 Salomonster wrote:
Is there any ETA for 0.5?
Right now I'm doing 2-3 hours per day. Although a lot is dependent on spoof having time to finish the coding. PLM 0.5 is finished. The Terran and Protoss versions are complete on the data document if you're anxious and want to build the files your self. DO THIS AT YOUR OWN RISK.
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On September 17 2012 06:06 JaKaTaK wrote:Right now I'm doing 2-3 hours per day. Although a lot is dependent on spoof having time to finish the coding. PLM 0.5 is finished. The Terran and Protoss versions are complete on the data document if you're anxious and want to build the files your self. DO THIS AT YOUR OWN RISK.
Just curious on how things are moving along. I haven't really learned how to play with 0.4 yet so I feel like there is no point on any focused practicing b4 0.5 is out since the changes seem so big especially as zerg when the camera keys is such a big part of the mechanics.
Just got home from the WCS Euro finals and feel really inspired to grind it out again, but I guess I'll just chill for a while.
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Using your developpement document, I've programmed myself a version of the core and I feel that your hotkey program would benefit from small adjustements.
Disclaimer: I'm a crappy terran player.
1- The stop or hold command key shouldn't be reached with the same finger that triggers the attack button if terrans want to be able to stutter step micro effectivly. On my keyboard, I've put the hold command on the key to the right of the semi colon so that it is triggered by the index finger (sorry, I got a french keyboard so I have to be descriptive about the keys).
2- Your build and adv build keys (- and open bracket) should also be used in upgrades, building construction and some spellcasting as they are easier to reach then the M, H, U and N keys.
3- In general (and this one is nit picking, I know), you should try to minimise the usage of M and N keys, as they require you to lift two fingers instead of only the pinky.
Apart from those slight ajustements I made, I don't see any problems with your 0.5 version. It is imo the best hotkey layout out there, which is something you should be proud of. Congrats.
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1- The stop or hold command key shouldn't be reached with the same finger that triggers the attack button if terrans want to be able to stutter step micro effectivly. On my keyboard, I've put the hold command on the key to the right of the semi colon so that it is triggered by the index finger (sorry, I got a french keyboard so I have to be descriptive about the keys).
Isn't it better to stutter step by alternating attack-move with rightclick-move?
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First of thank you both for creating this hotkey layout, it is amazing! I use a modified version of 0.4, which acommondate for the changes in 0.5 you already posted. First of I was skeptical about to use 2 modifier keys for creating groups (shift+control), but in practice I often just use add to group (control).
I have two questions regarding removing units from a group. Currently I use shift + click on the unit in the grid and then I recreate the group with shift+control, which seems to be inefficient.
- Is shift still your modifier to do the operation described above in 0.5?
- Is there an easier way to remove a unit from its control group?
Finally, you asked about the previous sub group hotkey. What about using the same hotkey as next subgroup + modifier?
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On September 17 2012 13:30 Dark Seraph wrote:Show nested quote +1- The stop or hold command key shouldn't be reached with the same finger that triggers the attack button if terrans want to be able to stutter step micro effectivly. On my keyboard, I've put the hold command on the key to the right of the semi colon so that it is triggered by the index finger (sorry, I got a french keyboard so I have to be descriptive about the keys). Isn't it better to stutter step by alternating attack-move with rightclick-move?
Yeah I've always heard this was best.
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On September 17 2012 23:11 puissance wrote:
First of thank you both for creating this hotkey layout, it is amazing! I use a modified version of 0.4, which acommondate for the changes in 0.5 you already posted. First of I was skeptical about to use 2 modifier keys for creating groups (shift+control), but in practice I often just use add to group (control).
I have two questions regarding removing units from a group. Currently I use shift + click on the unit in the grid and then I recreate the group with shift+control, which seems to be inefficient.
- Is shift still your modifier to do the operation described above in 0.5?
- Is there an easier way to remove a unit from its control group?
Finally, you asked about the previous sub group hotkey. What about using the same hotkey as next subgroup + modifier?
If I want a particular unit out of my control group, I control+shift+click, and that will take every (baneling) out of my (zergling) control group. I think most instances you will want to take an entire group of a particular kind of unit out of your CG as opposed to a single unit. (although I am aware this does happen as well)
On September 17 2012 11:13 Nepherius wrote:
Using your developpement document, I've programmed myself a version of the core and I feel that your hotkey program would benefit from small adjustements.
Disclaimer: I'm a crappy terran player.
1- The stop or hold command key shouldn't be reached with the same finger that triggers the attack button if terrans want to be able to stutter step micro effectivly. On my keyboard, I've put the hold command on the key to the right of the semi colon so that it is triggered by the index finger (sorry, I got a french keyboard so I have to be descriptive about the keys).
2- Your build and adv build keys (- and open bracket) should also be used in upgrades, building construction and some spellcasting as they are easier to reach then the M, H, U and N keys.
3- In general (and this one is nit picking, I know), you should try to minimise the usage of M and N keys, as they require you to lift two fingers instead of only the pinky.
Apart from those slight ajustements I made, I don't see any problems with your 0.5 version. It is imo the best hotkey layout out there, which is something you should be proud of. Congrats.
1. I've never heard of a stutter step micro combination that requires the alternation between the attack and stop keys. Most use Hold/Stop/Attack in alternation with right clicks.
2. Everything that can be integrated with the build keys for abilities while avoiding repetitive finger stroke combinations is integrated.
3. Contrary to popular belief, the M key is actually one of the fastest keys to press from JIOP. You must train your pinky before this becomes comfortable, but the potential for this key is much higher than most. Give it some time and practice, and you will unlock the power of your pinky.
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Hi guys, I hope 0.5 is going to be released when I get back from sweden wcs. I found some Swedish guys that use the core! So awesome to talk to then about it. I didn't get a chance to speak to artosis :-( was too busy taking pictures, i managed to get one of my pics of stephano on from page though... soooo tired now but can't wait to get back and try it out
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Hi guys,
Read alot about the Core last months, finally made the decision to start using it actually :-)
I always played grid because i wasn't sure which race i wanted to play, for now i stich whith Protoss.
Is anyone else having a stinging hand after using "the Core" for the first time(s)? I think i'm (whats the word) having light spasm's orso. Its like no blood went trough for a while :-) i'm pretty confident my arm is in a relaxing position.
Another position question, Jakatak told in his video about hand-positioning the keyboard should be in a V-shape together with your mouse because your hands are close to each other that way and it is easier for the brain to coordinate. If i setup my keyboard comfortably for my hands it is like 45 degrees rotated compared to my body, do you guys have it set up like this? The problem for me is, i cant type quick messages ingame this way :-)
Maybe i'm doing something wrong? suggestions?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GOjqt.jpg)
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On September 19 2012 06:20 wopie wrote:Hi guys, Read alot about the Core last months, finally made the decision to start using it actually :-) I always played grid because i wasn't sure which race i wanted to play, for now i stich whith Protoss. Is anyone else having a stinging hand after using "the Core" for the first time(s)? I think i'm (whats the word) having light spasm's orso. Its like no blood went trough for a while :-) i'm pretty confident my arm is in a relaxing position. Another position question, Jakatak told in his video about hand-positioning the keyboard should be in a V-shape together with your mouse because your hands are close to each other that way and it is easier for the brain to coordinate. If i setup my keyboard comfortably for my hands it is like 45 degrees rotated compared to my body, do you guys have it set up like this? The problem for me is, i cant type quick messages ingame this way :-) Maybe i'm doing something wrong? suggestions? + Show Spoiler +
The position looks about right to me. I had issues with comfort in this position until I added a small pillow to act as a rest to keep my wrist horizontally straight.
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Yes, you need wrist support. I also personally like having the keyboard further to the left, so my arm can stick straight out from my torso. Try moving it a bit to the left and see if you like that better.
I suggest towels or a T-shirt for support, since you don't need the support to be very high, and those objects let you fold them to get just the right hight for you.
Thank you for mentioning this here instead of trying to just "tough it out", we wouldn't want you getting wrist issues from bad support!
@AKA_STAR Dude that's so cool!
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On September 19 2012 06:20 wopie wrote:Hi guys, Read alot about the Core last months, finally made the decision to start using it actually :-) I always played grid because i wasn't sure which race i wanted to play, for now i stich whith Protoss. Is anyone else having a stinging hand after using "the Core" for the first time(s)? I think i'm (whats the word) having light spasm's orso. Its like no blood went trough for a while :-) i'm pretty confident my arm is in a relaxing position. Another position question, Jakatak told in his video about hand-positioning the keyboard should be in a V-shape together with your mouse because your hands are close to each other that way and it is easier for the brain to coordinate. If i setup my keyboard comfortably for my hands it is like 45 degrees rotated compared to my body, do you guys have it set up like this? The problem for me is, i cant type quick messages ingame this way :-) Maybe i'm doing something wrong? suggestions?
If you have no wrist support, your wrist shouldn't be resting on the desk - keep it in the air.
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On September 19 2012 08:38 FoxyMayhem wrote:
@AKA_STAR Dude that's so cool!
Phew, Back in the UK now - I ordered a red switch filco keyboard for trying out 0.5....still can't wait. I don't understand why blizzard doesn't give some UI indication to the hatcheries and injects... mind boggling
Photo album of the finals from WCS EU if anyone is interested, Stephano such a good winner.
https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/102807849238568917744/albums/5789133992740152481
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EPT
