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We are looking for a key, or combination of keys, for the "previous subgroup" function. Ideas?
I personally never really used next / previous subgroups except for on my upgrading buildings with my old hotkey setup, so I don't know how frequently it would be used so this idea might not be valid. also I'm using a scandinavian keyboard so I might be translating things wrong. you asked for ideas though so here is one. I'm not even sure that this is correct, but (judging from Darke seraph's post + Show Spoiler +using "left arrow" instead of "/" for the tab function
it would probably make sense to use the same finger to perform the inverted variation of an action. in this case it would be moving the thumb left of shift for next group and north of shift for previous group.
I guess tho that depending on your keyboard and possibly the shape of your thumb it could be a little hard for some ppl to hit "\" with the thumb. my thumb is kinda narrow but if you have a large knuckle bone on your thumb you might need to lift the palm to be able to press the key, and that might be sub optimal and even straining.
are there any specific restrictions for what type of key to use? like I'm assuming the next/previous sub group is meant to use for macro and not for army use? and in that case it would seem sub optimal to use the fingers primarily used for macro to do this. (I have very limited experience with the core, specially all the different layouts so watch me guess a little here =P). That would rate thumb really good, possibly followed by pinky and ring finger? so have you considered space bar?
it's not really comfortable to hit but its huge as hell so you cant really miss it either.
a third option would be if you for some reason found more pros with the KOP setup, using back arrow and down arrorw for next/prev would probably work really good
these ideas don't seem optimal to me but maybe you could get some other ideas from them... gl hf
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im really confused about the zerg layout now...
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if i don't have the right keyboard, or i can't pull out keys, which layout should i head for?
can you guys discuss on that and yeah help me decide? foxy said that dark grid is better and specifically suggest to use his layout on his post. Jatakak has different opinions that his is better, but seriously one has to be better... like how thecore is better than both. You guys make it sound like picking races all over again...
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I have a question about The Levels. Level 1 and level 2 both require a SQ of 80 to continue on. Looking at the SQ article, 80 is 80 is on the scale is between Grand Master and Master level. This seems way to high of a goal for a Bronze player like me. Is this correct, or am I reading it incorrectly? I would think Level 1 would be a range that is equivalent to high Gold to low Platinum since Gold placement and lower start at Level 1.
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On September 14 2012 07:40 thieveshonor wrote:
I have a question about The Levels. Level 1 and level 2 both require a SQ of 80 to continue on. Looking at the SQ article, 80 is 80 is on the scale is between Grand Master and Master level. This seems way to high of a goal for a Bronze player like me. Is this correct, or am I reading it incorrectly? I would think Level 1 would be a range that is equivalent to high Gold to low Platinum since Gold placement and lower start at Level 1.
It is about gold to plat level at level 1. However, really all you need to do is the raw basics of macro. No scouting, no unit compositions, no nothing.
It's like learning to juggle one knife, as opposed to the 12 or so knives that the masters have to juggle. You won't be doing as much stuff, so you'll be WAY less prone to errors.
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Wouldn't 60 be a more reasonable goal to aim for at Level 1 then?
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On September 14 2012 07:40 thieveshonor wrote:
I have a question about The Levels. Level 1 and level 2 both require a SQ of 80 to continue on. Looking at the SQ article, 80 is 80 is on the scale is between Grand Master and Master level. This seems way to high of a goal for a Bronze player like me. Is this correct, or am I reading it incorrectly? I would think Level 1 would be a range that is equivalent to high Gold to low Platinum since Gold placement and lower start at Level 1.
This is about Improving yourself, not winning games. If you get 80 SQ then you have got to a point where you can say, I have improved enough to move to the next level. It doesnt matter what Pros get since those are their Real Game SQ. You are trying to reach a level a pro can get but in a much simpler And measurable fashion, This is the only method I know of Where you can Actually Measure your performance and Tell you are doing better.
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These questions are better asked on this thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341393
I'll be making a specific thread for TheLevels sometime after we release 0.5 for TheCore.
However, I'll address the question in any case:
80 SQ will be a challenge for most bronze-gold players. But that is the point. It forces the player to prioritize your macro. This will most often lead to the insight of how insanely underprioritzed macro is for most players. Once the focus is on the fundamentals of the game, 80 SQ will become easier and easier (especially without the distractions of microing or trying to win). Once all the a-move units have been explored and 80 SQ is no longer a challenge, the player moves on to Level 2, where micro is introduced. Each round on this level should be focused on micro, try get the most out of every engagement, choose tactics that involve a lot of micro, think of all the ways the unit of focus (the newest unit) can be optimized in control. Now that all the units are fully at the disposal of the player its time to take it to the final Level with the focus on multitasking. This is the most difficult mechanic to develop and should only be focused on when the player has a complete understanding of the macro and micro of every unit in his/her arsenal. This level strives for near perfect mechanics: No hard supply blocks, never more than double the energy of your macro mechanic, 100 SQ, and constant worker production for terran and protoss players. If the player can pass this final set of challenges, he/she has graduated TheLevels and is fully prepared to get the absolute most out of strategical study.
gl hf :D
On September 14 2012 04:25 Salomonster wrote:Show nested quote +We are looking for a key, or combination of keys, for the "previous subgroup" function. Ideas? I personally never really used next / previous subgroups except for on my upgrading buildings with my old hotkey setup, so I don't know how frequently it would be used so this idea might not be valid. also I'm using a scandinavian keyboard so I might be translating things wrong. you asked for ideas though so here is one. I'm not even sure that this is correct, but (judging from Darke seraph's post + Show Spoiler +using "left arrow" instead of "/" for the tab function I am assuming that "/" is the key for next subgroup(?) one option would be to have previous sub group on "\" if I translated correctly the key just above shift and to the left of the enter key. it would probably make sense to use the same finger to perform the inverted variation of an action. in this case it would be moving the thumb left of shift for next group and north of shift for previous group. I guess tho that depending on your keyboard and possibly the shape of your thumb it could be a little hard for some ppl to hit "\" with the thumb. my thumb is kinda narrow but if you have a large knuckle bone on your thumb you might need to lift the palm to be able to press the key, and that might be sub optimal and even straining. are there any specific restrictions for what type of key to use? like I'm assuming the next/previous sub group is meant to use for macro and not for army use? and in that case it would seem sub optimal to use the fingers primarily used for macro to do this. (I have very limited experience with the core, specially all the different layouts so watch me guess a little here =P). That would rate thumb really good, possibly followed by pinky and ring finger? so have you considered space bar? it's not really comfortable to hit but its huge as hell so you cant really miss it either. a third option would be if you for some reason found more pros with the KOP setup, using back arrow and down arrorw for next/prev would probably work really good these ideas don't seem optimal to me but maybe you could get some other ideas from them... gl hf
I actually really like the idea of using the left arrow for previous subgroup. You're spot on with the thumb idea. Using the thumb for next subgroup is the most efficient finger for the job. This solution, however, does not work for left handed players. There may not be a comprehensive solution for this. I've been pressing alt+z with my thumb for previous subgroup and z for next subgroup and its been working pretty well. If we could just customize our tabbed production priorities, this would be a non-issue, but the cybercore is the last thing in priority for protoss players, so having an easy to reach previous subgroup button would definitely be helpful.
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I'm playing as zerg on the ZRMM layout. I'm trying to work "tapping" into the core. Here is what I'm doing so far:
Put first hatch on ctrl group P. Put scout/harass on L. Using my middle finger and main finger I can constantly tap between these groups, helping me remember to scout and inject on time. The hatch on P will be the only thing on that key, so that I can see a progress meter for the inject timer by pressing with my index finger at any time in the game.
Has anyone tried this yet . . . or is there any discussion on the tap method and the core that I should be aware of?
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I'm playing as zerg on the ZRMM layout. I'm trying to work "tapping" into the core. Here is what I'm doing so far:
Put first hatch on ctrl group P. Put scout/harass on L. Using my middle finger and main finger I can constantly tap between these groups, helping me remember to scout and inject on time. The hatch on P will be the only thing on that key, so that I can see a progress meter for the inject timer by pressing with my index finger at any time in the game.
Has anyone tried this yet . . . or is there any discussion on the tap method and the core that I should be aware of?
I think this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=274298
is one of the best tapping methods out there for zerg, its what I was doing just before I started playing around with the core. I guess it would apply pretty good to the core. however I think the injection method in the core is far supperior to what the author of this thread uses, but the concept of the macro cycle and tapping is solid tho.
q: if you only have one hatch for tapping on P, where would the rest of the hatcheries be?
I would probably put all my hatcheries on P and sac one of the harass keys for a separate hatch (not the lair and pref a hatch you are not planning to make upgrades/ queens on since it removes the larva timer)
@ JaKaTaK
I also like the back arrow for prev group but if you think your lefty version works good a version for right H could be keeping "/" for next sub, and do either "alt.(dot)" or "shift\" for prev sub
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How about ctrl+J for next subgroup and ctrl+I for previous? Or the reverse.
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On September 14 2012 20:26 Antylamon wrote:
How about ctrl+J for next subgroup and ctrl+I for previous? Or the reverse.
Binding next subgroup to holding down 2 keys is a very bad idea.
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On September 14 2012 22:42 Czarnodziej wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 20:26 Antylamon wrote:
How about ctrl+J for next subgroup and ctrl+I for previous? Or the reverse. Binding next subgroup to holding down 2 keys is a very bad idea.
And why would that be? It's so much faster than using your thumb to hit /.
Although I did just remember J and I are used for every production command, lol. Repeated keystrokes are a big no-no. Something like Ctrl+[ or Ctrl+] seems good... but it doesn't fit on all hotkey layouts :/
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@Salomonster I've got 1 hatch on P (not a lair/queen building hatch if I can help it), and all my other hatches on mouse-5. I'm still trying to get used to all my hatches being on mouse-5 though. Before I switched to the core, I was doing pretty much exactly what the zerg cycle method thread is saying (except on `-1-2 instead of 4-5-6).
So, the tapping here is a bit different for me cause I'm trying to tap between "active scout or harass unit" and a hatchery. At the start of the game, it's overlord/hatchery. Later it becomes 2 lings/hatchery.
I'll let y'all know how it works out for me after I've gotten some muscle memory built up.
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Next subgroup will not be changing. We are however looking for previous subgroup. The reason why we aren't using a key combination for next subgroup is because it has to be alternated with both ability and control groups for production, this means that almost any key would create repeated keystrokes or in the very least, repeated finger use.
However, previous subgroup would be used occasionally, only in specific situations. I wouldn't have an issue with putting previous subgroup on a key combination.
Concerning "tapping" as zerg, I think that the optimal method is to have an injecting queen control group, inject with them, and keep injecting. If you inject within 1 second of "on time" you will be able to know when to inject based on queen energy. If you are injecting on time, the inject will finish before the queen has enough energy to inject. It may not happen to you now, but I'm a big fan of looking forward and setting myself up for a method that will be the most efficient all the way down the road.
:D
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if i don't have the right keyboard, or i can't pull out keys, which layout should i head for?
can you guys discuss on that and yeah help me decide? foxy said that dark grid is better and specifically suggest to use his layout on his post. Jatakak has different opinions that his is better, but seriously one has to be better... like how thecore is better than both. You guys make it sound like picking races all over again...
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On September 15 2012 06:01 j.k.l wrote:
if i don't have the right keyboard, or i can't pull out keys, which layout should i head for?
can you guys discuss on that and yeah help me decide? foxy said that dark grid is better and specifically suggest to use his layout on his post. Jatakak has different opinions that his is better, but seriously one has to be better... like how thecore is better than both. You guys make it sound like picking races all over again...
Its like picking races all over again. I think our biggest difference is that Foxy believes that the better way to use the mouse is with macro on the 4th and 5th mouse buttons. While I believe those buttons should stick to the keyboard. Other than that, the differences are pretty plain, different home keys, different types of commands on the homekeys (abilites vs control groups). Both have layered cameras. I say try both and use the one you like best, or analyze both and choose the one you think is more efficient. Both will be updated for HotS and both will be supported by either Foxy or I. Up to you.
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On September 15 2012 06:47 JaKaTaK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 06:01 j.k.l wrote:
if i don't have the right keyboard, or i can't pull out keys, which layout should i head for?
can you guys discuss on that and yeah help me decide? foxy said that dark grid is better and specifically suggest to use his layout on his post. Jatakak has different opinions that his is better, but seriously one has to be better... like how thecore is better than both. You guys make it sound like picking races all over again... Its like picking races all over again. I think our biggest difference is that Foxy believes that the better way to use the mouse is with macro on the 4th and 5th mouse buttons. While I believe those buttons should stick to the keyboard. Other than that, the differences are pretty plain, different home keys, different types of commands on the homekeys (abilites vs control groups). Both have layered cameras. I say try both and use the one you like best, or analyze both and choose the one you think is more efficient. Both will be updated for HotS and both will be supported by either Foxy or I. Up to you.
First of all thank you for the response. You know what you guys should do? make a different layout who won't be able to follow specific changes such as changing the angle of key board or keys being pulled out. Like combine dark grid and chameleon and make a more efficient layout considering they are quite outdated after what you guys have learned making and developing the core. Thanks!
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On September 15 2012 10:13 j.k.l wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 06:47 JaKaTaK wrote:On September 15 2012 06:01 j.k.l wrote:
if i don't have the right keyboard, or i can't pull out keys, which layout should i head for?
can you guys discuss on that and yeah help me decide? foxy said that dark grid is better and specifically suggest to use his layout on his post. Jatakak has different opinions that his is better, but seriously one has to be better... like how thecore is better than both. You guys make it sound like picking races all over again... Its like picking races all over again. I think our biggest difference is that Foxy believes that the better way to use the mouse is with macro on the 4th and 5th mouse buttons. While I believe those buttons should stick to the keyboard. Other than that, the differences are pretty plain, different home keys, different types of commands on the homekeys (abilites vs control groups). Both have layered cameras. I say try both and use the one you like best, or analyze both and choose the one you think is more efficient. Both will be updated for HotS and both will be supported by either Foxy or I. Up to you. First of all thank you for the response. You know what you guys should do? make a different layout who won't be able to follow specific changes such as changing the angle of key board or keys being pulled out. Like combine dark grid and chameleon and make a more efficient layout considering they are quite outdated after what you guys have learned making and developing the core. Thanks!
Maybe.. we'll see.
Also, I read every post on the Darkgrid thread, so no need to double post unless you want to :D
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On September 15 2012 11:09 JaKaTaK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 10:13 j.k.l wrote:On September 15 2012 06:47 JaKaTaK wrote:On September 15 2012 06:01 j.k.l wrote:
if i don't have the right keyboard, or i can't pull out keys, which layout should i head for?
can you guys discuss on that and yeah help me decide? foxy said that dark grid is better and specifically suggest to use his layout on his post. Jatakak has different opinions that his is better, but seriously one has to be better... like how thecore is better than both. You guys make it sound like picking races all over again... Its like picking races all over again. I think our biggest difference is that Foxy believes that the better way to use the mouse is with macro on the 4th and 5th mouse buttons. While I believe those buttons should stick to the keyboard. Other than that, the differences are pretty plain, different home keys, different types of commands on the homekeys (abilites vs control groups). Both have layered cameras. I say try both and use the one you like best, or analyze both and choose the one you think is more efficient. Both will be updated for HotS and both will be supported by either Foxy or I. Up to you. First of all thank you for the response. You know what you guys should do? make a different layout who won't be able to follow specific changes such as changing the angle of key board or keys being pulled out. Like combine dark grid and chameleon and make a more efficient layout considering they are quite outdated after what you guys have learned making and developing the core. Thanks! Maybe.. we'll see. Also, I read every post on the Darkgrid thread, so no need to double post unless you want to :D
kk sorry i thought you didn't like the darkgrid  . My bad lol.
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EPT
