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Sorry for this question, as I feel like it maybe answered somewhere but I really cant find it. What is the suggested macro groups for this setup?
Based on my answers im on PRMM. So I got it all setup, and want to practice but im really not sure whats intended to be grouped to what key, as the entire layout is a little alien to me. I can probably just find what "works for me" if i keep messing around with it, but seems like there should be suggestions somewhere for the intended use of the control groups / why they are setup that way.
*edit* I should clarify my question more I suppose. I know there is suggested hotkey uses in the data sheet for unit grouping. But not much for macro. And double confused by people saying warp gates should be on O, and not use the warpgate hotkey (which i know you said you have answered before but i cant find the reason for this either.)
Additionally the data sheet suggests O be for templar. So is supposed to be a macro button or for units? The only buildings I can find are all put on the mouse m4/5? So you just cycle through the groups everytime you want to make a immortal / probe / carrier / etc? Seems like it would slow you down a bit. I dunno, Im sure you have probably answered that part but still seems a bit unclear why its better after readnig what i could find. Guess ill just have to give it a shot.
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sorry if dumb question but m&m= marine&maurader?
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On July 30 2012 14:30 my0s wrote:
Sorry for this question, as I feel like it maybe answered somewhere but I really cant find it. What is the suggested macro groups for this setup?
Based on my answers im on PRMM. So I got it all setup, and want to practice but im really not sure whats intended to be grouped to what key, as the entire layout is a little alien to me. I can probably just find what "works for me" if i keep messing around with it, but seems like there should be suggestions somewhere for the intended use of the control groups / why they are setup that way.
*edit* I should clarify my question more I suppose. I know there is suggested hotkey uses in the data sheet for unit grouping. But not much for macro. And double confused by people saying warp gates should be on O, and not use the warpgate hotkey (which i know you said you have answered before but i cant find the reason for this either.)
Additionally the data sheet suggests O be for templar. So is supposed to be a macro button or for units? The only buildings I can find are all put on the mouse m4/5? So you just cycle through the groups everytime you want to make a immortal / probe / carrier / etc? Seems like it would slow you down a bit. I dunno, Im sure you have probably answered that part but still seems a bit unclear why its better after readnig what i could find. Guess ill just have to give it a shot.
If you're using mouse buttons, I believe it's nexus and upgrade building(forge, robo, twilight, etc) on mouse button 4/5 and army production (gateway, robo, stargate). At least, that's how it is for Terran. Feels awkward until you get used to subgroup tabbing.
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Artosis just posted his hotkey video HERE I left him a comment asking him to check out our hotkey project. But there are so many comments its unlikely he will see it unless we can get enough "thumbs ups" to be the top comment.
This is a tremendous opportunity to get one of the most intelligent and powerful starcraft minds onboard, or at least give the project some pointers or approval. Please find the comment by TheJaKaTaKshow and give it a thumbs up so we can bring TheCore to the next level.
EDIT: top comments are shuffled through via time regardless of many upvotes  If you want to support TheCore please tweet @Artosis with a link to this thread asking him to check out TheCore and tell us what he thinks. Works for Facebook too. www.facebook.com/artosis
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I tried out The Core for about 10-15 games. I'm a mid-Masters player who has played about 3,000 games of SC2, and DAMN is it frustrating to try and learn a new hotkey set-up!! That said, I have a one legitimate question/concern about The Core:
I find it awkward to press Ctrl, Shift, and Alt with my thumb. Is there a version of The Core that doesn't require moving one's hand to the other side of the keyboard? Along with this, I'm so used to knowing exactly where all the keys are under my hand, and with my hand in a totally foreign position, I often have to think before pressing i, o, j, k, etc. with my left hand. This resulted in me lifting my command centers instead of building scv's, repeatedly. Another reason (not a very important one) is that it is more difficult to type while playing with my hand on the wrong side of the keyboard.
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Just gave a thumbs up and tweet to Artosis!
Quick and dumb question: what exactly does the "all ups" part of "Injecting Queen/All ups" in the data document refer to?
Am I meant to bind my evo chambers with my queens and tab to them? Does Roach Warren go there if I am using its upgrades? Or perhaps it means something totally different...
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On July 31 2012 01:02 JDub wrote:
I tried out The Core for about 10-15 games. I'm a mid-Masters player who has played about 3,000 games of SC2, and DAMN is it frustrating to try and learn a new hotkey set-up!! That said, I have a one legitimate question/concern about The Core:
I find it awkward to press Ctrl, Shift, and Alt with my thumb. Is there a version of The Core that doesn't require moving one's hand to the other side of the keyboard? Along with this, I'm so used to knowing exactly where all the keys are under my hand, and with my hand in a totally foreign position, I often have to think before pressing i, o, j, k, etc. with my left hand. This resulted in me lifting my command centers instead of building scv's, repeatedly. Another reason (not a very important one) is that it is more difficult to type while playing with my hand on the wrong side of the keyboard.
the guiding concept of The Core is efficiency and ease of use. A central part of the Core is pressing the most common button, Shift, with your thumb instead of your pinky. This is the biggest advantage the Core gives you, although certainly not the only one.
For that reason your hand must be on the other side of the keyboard, and you will have a hard time typing to people. But its about playing SC2 well and winning games, typing is not that important.
Pressing wrong buttons and getting adjusted will occur when you first start trying, but i think its worth it to struggle through these growing pains for a much smoother and faster layout.
My favorite aspect is having 10 control groups and 8 cameras in reach of your fingers, something i dont think any other layout can do.
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Also, regarding Artosis saying that HotS will "mess up" your hotkeys. That will hardly be the case with TheCore, there will only be some minor changes to account for the new units. (abilities don't look like they will be an issue)
@VerdeCreed
Thanks! If we can get Artosis in on this, it is sure to be the definitive layout for Starcraft 2 IMO.
Also, anything you upgrade with, put with your queens (take these things out once you have upgraded). For example, when you build a roach warren, group it in with your queens, that way you can upgrade speed and tunneling claws quickly as well as keep an eye on when one finishes so you can start the next one. Once both upgrades are complete, take it out of that control group to increase the efficiency of getting to your other upgrade structures :D
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On July 30 2012 14:30 my0s wrote:
Sorry for this question, as I feel like it maybe answered somewhere but I really cant find it. What is the suggested macro groups for this setup?
Based on my answers im on PRMM. So I got it all setup, and want to practice but im really not sure whats intended to be grouped to what key, as the entire layout is a little alien to me. I can probably just find what "works for me" if i keep messing around with it, but seems like there should be suggestions somewhere for the intended use of the control groups / why they are setup that way.
*edit* I should clarify my question more I suppose. I know there is suggested hotkey uses in the data sheet for unit grouping. But not much for macro. And double confused by people saying warp gates should be on O, and not use the warpgate hotkey (which i know you said you have answered before but i cant find the reason for this either.)
Additionally the data sheet suggests O be for templar. So is supposed to be a macro button or for units? The only buildings I can find are all put on the mouse m4/5? So you just cycle through the groups everytime you want to make a immortal / probe / carrier / etc? Seems like it would slow you down a bit. I dunno, Im sure you have probably answered that part but still seems a bit unclear why its better after readnig what i could find. Guess ill just have to give it a shot.
O should not be used for macro on your layout.
Nexii should not be on the same group as combat unit production.
On one group (mouse 4 for you) will be Nexii for making probes, as well as upgrade and tech buildings like Forge and Robo Bay.
On another group (mouse 5) with be Warpgates/Robo fac/Stargates. The cycle button is used to switch between these for building units.
Those 2 buttons should be your only macro buttons. The Select Warpgate key is not used at all. It might be a bit clunky for somebody not accustomed to building this way, but as far as the number of keypresses, its almost the same as having them seperate. Effectively it should not slow a player down.
The more control groups you have for units, the better unit control/micro you can achieve. Giving production buildings and forges and such their own control groups is taking away keys for your army and units and harass. This will actually be even more important in Heart of the Swarm with units like the Oracle and the Viper which demand more control and attention from the player.
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I'm thinking about making the cancel and idle worker keys more accessible.
How do you guys feel about
6 for cancel (hit it with the ring finger, should feel similar to the old hitting escape and easier than F8) and
= or Backspace for idle worker?
EDIT: 7 for cancel and ` for idle worker for lefties
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On July 31 2012 02:35 ellaguru wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 01:02 JDub wrote:
I tried out The Core for about 10-15 games. I'm a mid-Masters player who has played about 3,000 games of SC2, and DAMN is it frustrating to try and learn a new hotkey set-up!! That said, I have a one legitimate question/concern about The Core:
I find it awkward to press Ctrl, Shift, and Alt with my thumb. Is there a version of The Core that doesn't require moving one's hand to the other side of the keyboard? Along with this, I'm so used to knowing exactly where all the keys are under my hand, and with my hand in a totally foreign position, I often have to think before pressing i, o, j, k, etc. with my left hand. This resulted in me lifting my command centers instead of building scv's, repeatedly. Another reason (not a very important one) is that it is more difficult to type while playing with my hand on the wrong side of the keyboard. the guiding concept of The Core is efficiency and ease of use. A central part of the Core is pressing the most common button, Shift, with your thumb instead of your pinky. This is the biggest advantage the Core gives you, although certainly not the only one. For that reason your hand must be on the other side of the keyboard, and you will have a hard time typing to people. But its about playing SC2 well and winning games, typing is not that important. Pressing wrong buttons and getting adjusted will occur when you first start trying, but i think its worth it to struggle through these growing pains for a much smoother and faster layout. My favorite aspect is having 10 control groups and 8 cameras in reach of your fingers, something i dont think any other layout can do.
I really don't see how pressing shift with your thumb is an advantage -- as someone who uses a computer at work, and uses the shift key whenever I want to type a capital letter, pressing shift with my pinky is 2nd nature. I don't think I ever actually use my left thumb for anything (I press space bar with my right thumb when typing), so it is actually quite awkward for me to press shift with my left thumb (even more awkward to try to hold ctrl + shift simultaneously). For this reason I also found the camera hotkeys very hard to use -- having to jam ctrl+shift with my thumb is very awkward for going to the different camera locations.
I understand there will be growing pains, but I really just don't like the feel of having my hand on the wrong side of the keyboard. It goes against all of the muscle memory I have built up over my entire life -- I no longer know where my hand is, nor where the keys are in relation to my hand. Perhaps The Core just isn't for me.
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Personally i find that button 4,5 for macro is not efficient at all cause usually, u spam P and O for macroin and spamming mouses buttons is impossible in order to stay accurate with your mouse.
So i change buttons 4 and 5 for rallyin camera and showin selection. Like this you can macro really fast as toss : Fightin/ scoutin ---> 5 --> O ---> Warpin
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On July 31 2012 03:19 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 02:35 ellaguru wrote:On July 31 2012 01:02 JDub wrote:
I tried out The Core for about 10-15 games. I'm a mid-Masters player who has played about 3,000 games of SC2, and DAMN is it frustrating to try and learn a new hotkey set-up!! That said, I have a one legitimate question/concern about The Core:
I find it awkward to press Ctrl, Shift, and Alt with my thumb. Is there a version of The Core that doesn't require moving one's hand to the other side of the keyboard? Along with this, I'm so used to knowing exactly where all the keys are under my hand, and with my hand in a totally foreign position, I often have to think before pressing i, o, j, k, etc. with my left hand. This resulted in me lifting my command centers instead of building scv's, repeatedly. Another reason (not a very important one) is that it is more difficult to type while playing with my hand on the wrong side of the keyboard. the guiding concept of The Core is efficiency and ease of use. A central part of the Core is pressing the most common button, Shift, with your thumb instead of your pinky. This is the biggest advantage the Core gives you, although certainly not the only one. For that reason your hand must be on the other side of the keyboard, and you will have a hard time typing to people. But its about playing SC2 well and winning games, typing is not that important. Pressing wrong buttons and getting adjusted will occur when you first start trying, but i think its worth it to struggle through these growing pains for a much smoother and faster layout. My favorite aspect is having 10 control groups and 8 cameras in reach of your fingers, something i dont think any other layout can do. I really don't see how pressing shift with your thumb is an advantage -- as someone who uses a computer at work, and uses the shift key whenever I want to type a capital letter, pressing shift with my pinky is 2nd nature. I don't think I ever actually use my left thumb for anything (I press space bar with my right thumb when typing), so it is actually quite awkward for me to press shift with my left thumb (even more awkward to try to hold ctrl + shift simultaneously). For this reason I also found the camera hotkeys very hard to use -- having to jam ctrl+shift with my thumb is very awkward for going to the different camera locations. I understand there will be growing pains, but I really just don't like the feel of having my hand on the wrong side of the keyboard. It goes against all of the muscle memory I have built up over my entire life -- I no longer know where my hand is, nor where the keys are in relation to my hand. Perhaps The Core just isn't for me.
All it takes is time. Anyone can do it. A good start would be to stop referring to the right side of the keyboard as the wrong side of the keyboard. There's nothing wrong about it, it is not what you are used to, but that doesn't make it wrong. Again, it takes time, you will feel comfortable playing with TheCore given enough of it. And you will look back at your old setup and say, "wtf was I thinking"
EDIT: On July 31 2012 03:27 Serge89 wrote:
Personally i find that button 4,5 for macro is not efficient at all cause usually, u spam P and O for macroin and spamming mouses buttons is impossible in order to stay accurate with your mouse.
So i change buttons 4 and 5 for rallyin camera and showin selection. Like this you can macro really fast as toss : Fightin/ scoutin ---> 5 --> O ---> Warpin
I totally agree. I think the non-mouse buttons are superior, however, Foxy thinks the opposite, so we decided to provide both. Using the camera hotkeys for rally is pretty cool. What do you mean by "showin selection"? Center on current selection? Regardless, that's also really interesting to me, definitely going to spend some time thinking about that. We've also considered putting drag scroll on the side mouse buttons, I'm waiting to get a mouse with left handed side buttons to start trying that out, but it seems like a really cool idea.
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Actually, i don't use button 5 cause i don't find a "useful" key that could be efficient on the mouse. However, i think the best assignement could be the key that move the camera on the selection, i don't know the exact name. It goes like you have your nexus on P for example and when you press this key it shows one nexus then another.I used to press a lot this key when playin with darkgrid.
Imo, buttons should be used only for camera or maybe special abilities that you don't use a lot cause you need to keep your mouse accuracy.
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On July 31 2012 03:31 JaKaTaK wrote:
All it takes is time. Anyone can do it. A good start would be to stop referring to the right side of the keyboard as the wrong side of the keyboard. There's nothing wrong about it, it is not what you are used to, but that doesn't make it wrong. Again, it takes time, you will feel comfortable playing with TheCore given enough of it. And you will look back at your old setup and say, "wtf was I thinking"
I'm taking issue with the underlying assumption that your thumb is a superior finger to use for common buttons. Why would the finger that I never use to press buttons be the best at pressing buttons? Sure with enough practice I'm sure I could get used to it, but I don't feel like sucking for 100 games (or about ~3 months of playing) to totally relearn how to place my hand on a keyboard. It seems TheCore is both relearning hotkeys and relearning to type, which just doubles the growing pains.
I'm looking for some reasoning behind the madness, that is all. At this rate, though, I'll just get a "nope, you're stupid, practice more and stop crying about it" response.
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On July 31 2012 03:16 JaKaTaK wrote:
I'm thinking about making the cancel and idle worker keys more accessible.
How do you guys feel about
6 for cancel (hit it with the ring finger, should feel similar to the old hitting escape and easier than F8) and
= or Backspace for idle worker?
EDIT: 7 for cancel and ` for idle worker for lefties
I disagree with this change.
F8 and F9 have the familiar empty space between them that makes my hits more accurate. If cancel was on 6 then I could see myself accidentally hitting 7 and going to a camera position or even worse, accidentally canceling important tech while attempting to recall camera 7.
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On July 31 2012 04:14 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 03:31 JaKaTaK wrote:
All it takes is time. Anyone can do it. A good start would be to stop referring to the right side of the keyboard as the wrong side of the keyboard. There's nothing wrong about it, it is not what you are used to, but that doesn't make it wrong. Again, it takes time, you will feel comfortable playing with TheCore given enough of it. And you will look back at your old setup and say, "wtf was I thinking" I'm taking issue with the underlying assumption that your thumb is a superior finger to use for common buttons. Why would the finger that I never use to press buttons be the best at pressing buttons? Sure with enough practice I'm sure I could get used to it, but I don't feel like sucking for 100 games (or about ~3 months of playing) to totally relearn how to place my hand on a keyboard. It seems TheCore is both relearning hotkeys and relearning to type, which just doubles the growing pains. I'm looking for some reasoning behind the madness, that is all. At this rate, though, I'll just get a "nope, you're stupid, practice more and stop crying about it" response.
Jdub. There has been so much discussion about this topic throughout this thread. You are not the first person to bring this up.
And the process does not take three months. I made the switch in about 3 weeks of casual play. And half way through the process you're already playing with more efficiency than your old setup, just minus the smoothness and full muscle memory until you fully learn. Hitting Ctrl and Shift with your thumb takes minimal contortion and movement, whereas control and shify with your pinky forces you to contort your hand. Also, thumb on ctrl and shift allow for easy camera location hotkeys.
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On July 31 2012 04:14 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 03:31 JaKaTaK wrote:
All it takes is time. Anyone can do it. A good start would be to stop referring to the right side of the keyboard as the wrong side of the keyboard. There's nothing wrong about it, it is not what you are used to, but that doesn't make it wrong. Again, it takes time, you will feel comfortable playing with TheCore given enough of it. And you will look back at your old setup and say, "wtf was I thinking" I'm taking issue with the underlying assumption that your thumb is a superior finger to use for common buttons. Why would the finger that I never use to press buttons be the best at pressing buttons? Sure with enough practice I'm sure I could get used to it, but I don't feel like sucking for 100 games (or about ~3 months of playing) to totally relearn how to place my hand on a keyboard. It seems TheCore is both relearning hotkeys and relearning to type, which just doubles the growing pains. I'm looking for some reasoning behind the madness, that is all. At this rate, though, I'll just get a "nope, you're stupid, practice more and stop crying about it" response.
I'll never call you stupid for being skeptical. My responses are aimed at giving you information you may not have considered and letting you do as you will with that information. I didn't realize that your main issue was with the thumb, which I will explain now.
The reason for the thumb being on shift and not another finger is that is provides for the most ergonomic hand position, while letting you combine with the maximum number of keys. If any of the 4 other fingers are used for shift, you lose a bunch of combinations. If you use your pinky for shift, you cannot use any key normally pressed with the pinky in combination with shift without moving your hand considerably, which is both non-ergonomic and inefficient. Additionally, you can combine more keys with shift on the thumb because of the larger space between your thumb and index finger. The distance you can reach from your thumb to your pinky is far greater than from your pinky to index. It also allows for you to press Ctrl+shift at the same time with 1 finger. This opens up new options for speed and efficiency that the pinky could not do as ergonomically.
Does that make sense to you?
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On July 31 2012 04:14 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 03:31 JaKaTaK wrote:
All it takes is time. Anyone can do it. A good start would be to stop referring to the right side of the keyboard as the wrong side of the keyboard. There's nothing wrong about it, it is not what you are used to, but that doesn't make it wrong. Again, it takes time, you will feel comfortable playing with TheCore given enough of it. And you will look back at your old setup and say, "wtf was I thinking" I'm taking issue with the underlying assumption that your thumb is a superior finger to use for common buttons. Why would the finger that I never use to press buttons be the best at pressing buttons? Sure with enough practice I'm sure I could get used to it, but I don't feel like sucking for 100 games (or about ~3 months of playing) to totally relearn how to place my hand on a keyboard. It seems TheCore is both relearning hotkeys and relearning to type, which just doubles the growing pains. I'm looking for some reasoning behind the madness, that is all. At this rate, though, I'll just get a "nope, you're stupid, practice more and stop crying about it" response.
purely from an anatomical standpoint, your thumb is the most capable finger you have. with the ring finger being the least (pinkie is close behind). That is why it is moved to the right side of the keyboard. It gives the most capable finger the maximum opportunity to use buttons, where as the traditional setup seems to utilize your two weakest fingers to press the most used buttons.
as far as placing your hand on the keyboard differently, do you really hold you hand on the home row keys when you play starcraft? Most people using basic hotkeys that I know basically stretch their hand over the keyboard with their pinkie centered on shift/control.
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The "which finger is strongest" debate has been very lively on this thread. My conclusion of this debate is that the Thumb and Pinky are fingers with the most potential for speed in Sc2. If you click all comments and search for the word "Drummer" you will be taken to the beginning of the debate.
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EPT
