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[G] TheCore - Advanced Keyboard Layout - Page 395

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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galzohar
Profile Joined November 2010
Israel100 Posts
November 23 2015 14:24 GMT
#7881
You don't want a toggle key for both the case where some are in 1 state while others are in the other state.

Another benefit is to avoid accidentally toggling the wrong state. For example, when accidentally double-tapping.
Beedebdoo
Profile Joined June 2013
130 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-23 19:33:56
November 23 2015 19:31 GMT
#7882
@Sixtus
Ahh sorry, I see now that wasn't very clear wording. I mean the explosion ability on the Scourge unit; the unit that the Zagara Commander can morph from Larvae in Co-op.

+ Show Spoiler [IMAGE] +
[image loading]


I haven't been able to find its manual detonation ability, seen in the bottom left of the Command Card in the picture above. It doesn't seem to be accessible from the front, neither does the Scourge unit.


@galzohar
+ Show Spoiler [QUOTE] +
On November 23 2015 05:57 galzohar wrote:
I have been trying to understand the core, and was wondering about a few things.

For reference, I've been looking at TLM setup, but these seem to be relevant at least to TRM as well.

1. Why are camera locations using ctrl+shift? Isn't that way too difficult to reach in a hurry? I was a bit doubtful that even a single modifier key would not be too much for jumping to camera locations, so 2 seems way too much. There seem to be plenty of unused keys when ctrl or shift are pressed. Would it really be worse to use those for cameras locations (set with alt, jump with ctrl or shift)?

2. I would have thought the attack key would be one of the most important. Shouldn't it be in a position that the index finger can easily reach, or even the resting point of the index finger? Combining it with stim seems like it would make it even more difficult, since, except for combinations involving the thumb, those 2 fingers are the slowest to press in succession.

3. I noticed clock on/off uses different scheme than siege/tank mode, burrow/unburrow and supply lower/raise. I couldn't find a reason why it isn't the same. Even the upgrades seem like they could use the same hotkey. Any reason for that?

4. Why is bunker salvage so far off?

Thanks in advance for any answers!

  1. First to be 100% sure that we're on the same page: Ctrl+Shift is pressed by fat-fingering with your thumb in the most comfortable way.
    In 1.0, modifiers were given the following purposes for Terran:
    No-mod      Abilities + Control Group-recall
    Shift Ability-queueing + Camera-recall
    Ctrl Add to Control Group
    Ctrl+Shift Create Control Group
    Alt Create Camera

    In 2.0 Cam-recall and Control Group Create swapped modifiers for the following reasons
    • The no-mod and shift-modifier is partially used up by abilities. The keys where Shift+key does not conflict with abilities are the keys where no-mod+key recalls a Control Group.
    • Control Group Create is, for consistency, on the same key as Control Group Recall, therefore it is not bothered by the above contraint;
    • Camera-recall on the other hand is. By using the Ctrl+Shift modifier, the very closest keys can be used instead of just keys that are used for control groups. This is supposed to outweigh the fact that the modifier is worse. But this is, of course, debatable and up to the person. You should make your own layout to fit you. I personally use the 1.0 way because I also prefer the better modifier
    • At the same time, Shift as a modifier is faster than Ctrl+Shift, so Control Group Create becomes faster. Also allows for some cool moves, mechanically.

  2. The middle and ring finger are used for abilities, while the index and pinky are used for control groups. This theoretically reduces finger repetition, so that you can do stuff faster and with less strain on the individual finger. Of the index and ring finger, the rested position of the middle finger was chosen as the place for Attack.

  3. Not sure if I'm looking at the wrong layout here, but Cloak/Decloak shares scheme with Burrow/Unburrow, while Transformer modes share their keys with phase/transport. It is a nice consistency to have, but it would mean either pushing EMP out to a worse key or pushing every transformer mode out to a worse key, which is not ideal, as EMP and some of the transformers are somewhat time-sensitive

  4. The Bunker is a special case of multiplayer hotkey-junk. It shares Stim key with Marine/Marauder; Unload with Medivac (and other Unload thingies); Attack, Stop, Cancel with everything else. All of these keys are deemed more important, so Salvage is sometimes pushed out to solve the puzzle. Another important thing, is that we want to be able to make an Unload -> Salvage combination, so those keys should be on different fingers.
galzohar
Profile Joined November 2010
Israel100 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-23 19:56:48
November 23 2015 19:56 GMT
#7883
Thanks!

I noticed with ctrl modifier there are a lot of free hotkeys. While some are a bit less reach-able due to not being able to use control group keys, I would think they'd still be easier to reach due to the easier modifier? As in, anything would be easier to reach if your thumb doesn't have to perform acrobatics at the same time.

As a side effect, this would also leave alt as a modifier that can both set control groups and cameras, allowing the use of 1 of the new "add steal" or "create steal" for control groups.

Is there a flaw with this approach I'm missing? Or was the current approach used simply because ctrl+shift+easy key was considered better than ctrl + not so easy key?
Beedebdoo
Profile Joined June 2013
130 Posts
November 23 2015 20:14 GMT
#7884
It's a reasonable way to go about it, I think. Right now, I fear that TheCore might become and overall slower layout, if we try to fit everything into it. From an Archon perspective, it seems ideal to be able to use both though. But that's not what TheCore is currently designed for.
Darkzephyr
Profile Joined January 2015
Canada10 Posts
November 23 2015 20:16 GMT
#7885
On November 22 2015 01:44 JaKaTaKSc2 wrote:

If you're looking for people to talk about TheCore (or just someone that also wants to bind their Co-op keys) join TheCore group on battle.net! (on the Americas Server). It'd be really nice if we could get an active community within the game going, but its up to all of you to make that happen.


I'll do this when I get home. I do a lot of modification to the core, and I'd be happy to help others and discuss ideas!
galzohar
Profile Joined November 2010
Israel100 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-24 08:22:01
November 23 2015 22:19 GMT
#7886
Having at least 1 of the 2 seems very useful for when you want to split your army, such as send out a drop, no? At least according to other threads and my limited experience (removing the drop from the army control group was a big issue for me in HotS).

While it originated from archon mode, it seems like it's very useful for 1v1 too.
SixtusTheFifth
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
New Zealand170 Posts
November 24 2015 09:02 GMT
#7887
Scourge
DetonateScourge/Scourge=


Also updated on Full List
Hea_dk
Profile Joined November 2015
1 Post
November 24 2015 20:58 GMT
#7888
Plavec Joined November 2015 1 Post
November 13 2015 06:50 CET #7831
Hello, I have problem with the core. CTRl + P, CTRL + [ and CTRL + ] hotkeys doesnt work. Same keys with shift, alt or anything work. I tried every version of keyboard, but none works. Any suggestions how to solve this?


hey i am new to the core, but i have the same little issue.
When i hit control + p nofthing is happning in starcraft 2, even in windwos search tab and notepad when i hit control + p the letter p is not showing.
if i go to command prompt and dou the same stund i get the ^p, so my gues is that control + p (print screen) command is taking over rather then dou the command in starcraft 2.

is there a knowing work around or something?

running windows 10 x64 professional English with a Danish key bored.
stracraft 2 try both 32 and 64
try running starcraft 2 in compalilty mode windows 7

i hope there is a experct that can tell me i am not alone with this issu ?
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
November 25 2015 18:56 GMT
#7889
Important question for the most important decision concerning TheCore 3.0

In what scenario can Create/Steal not replace Create?
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
Begoul66
Profile Joined November 2015
3 Posts
November 25 2015 19:57 GMT
#7890
Hi , How I can get used to my CG fast ? I can't remenber them and when I do this is so slow ... I have trouble to spend my money in T because of that .
Thanks
galzohar
Profile Joined November 2010
Israel100 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-25 20:01:17
November 25 2015 20:00 GMT
#7891
I tried setting ctrl+E to "jump to camera location 7", but it seems to just use the ability on 'E' instead. Any idea why is that and if there might be some workaround?

Edit: Nevermind, alt-tabbing in and out of the game a few times seems to have fixed it.
MassSpecd
Profile Joined November 2015
13 Posts
November 25 2015 21:48 GMT
#7892
@Jak
I'm not sure I fully understand the Create/Steal settings because I haven't used them at all. I would think it would be undesirable for the main army cg, and production cgs (0 for cc's/ups, j for military in my case) other than that, I think it would be very handy for harass cg's because I usually find myself removing those units from my main army because I accidentally added them to it and in my style of playing... those units don't last to long :S

@Begoul66
I spent many hours practicing with control groups in a map with the SALT mod. It basically leaves you with a broken computer ai to practice with. This allows you practice setting/recalling/using CGs. Good way to practice cameras when you get bored with producing units. You can use the hotkey trainer in the arcade to memorize the buttons for units and buildings so you can mix everything you've learned together. When you get bored with all of that, start playing vs the ai at lower difficulties and gradually increase the difficulty after you get bored. When you've reached your difficulty limit, keep practicing until your eyes bleed from boredom. Then practice some more. Most of this is plaguerized to some degree from the staircase (i think) and instructions from the first page on the master spreadsheet.

@galzohar
If the issue comes back, I believe there is a link in the F.A.Q. section of the OP to resolve it.
JIffy
Profile Joined November 2015
3 Posts
November 26 2015 06:06 GMT
#7893
On November 26 2015 03:56 JaKaTaKSc2 wrote:
Important question for the most important decision concerning TheCore 3.0

In what scenario can Create/Steal not replace Create?


Hey Jak! I've been playing with The Core since 0.6 (something) and I love it and am looking forward to 3.0 before getting into LotV multiplayer

As for the Create/Steal, I made an account to say how it could be detrimental in Archon mode but realised that Add can be used as Create in any of the situations that I can think of. As long as the player using it is conscious of how they're using it then Add/Create (if you don't with to steal an Archon main army) + Create/Steal should work.

There are situations where it gets more awkward though. For example if you have lings/banes for example and the early game you have a scouting drone on the CG (control group) you use for banes only, then you can't create over that CG without either including the drone or removing the banes from the ling/bane CG. Maybe a poor example but it is a situation where you don't really have an efficient way out if you've previously been lazy with any of your CG's.

Without forethought this could add frustration to newer players, to the point where replacing Create with Create/Steal is better 99% of the time could be an added step to learning the core and leave it as just Create until fluidity of CG use is there (as that can be confusing enough at the start).

As long as this also doesn't screw up the Ctrl + Shift click to remove a type of unit from the tab (?) then I will probably use this instead of just Create to be more space efficient and more easily upgrade 2.0 unless you come up with something magical for 3.0!

Ended up being a bit longer than expected, I'll try and be more concise next time
JIffy
Profile Joined November 2015
3 Posts
November 26 2015 07:08 GMT
#7894
So I realised that again this is solved easily in a normal game where you can Create/Steal the banes onto that group then just add them again to the main army CG. However in Archon mode this would potentially create problems as you'd have to steal the banes away from your teammate to perform this.

Essentially this situation where someone doesn't have strict CG structures set throughout the game and also just makes mistakes (again something that can easily happen when learning The Core) where units are accidentally added to a CG are punished slightly more as you have to then also add the units you "reset" a CG with into all the other CG's you want them to be in. In Archon mode it's even more punishing because a hotkey mistake can lead to both you and your partner having to hotkey those units again which is even worse for your partner.

A solution to this could be to have the Create key still available for those situations where you've made a mistake and in a much lower priority position (even the left arrow key which is close for me). The inefficiency of the key stroke is worth it in certain situations where you would screw with your Archon partner or all your other CG's too much with a Create/Steal function and require the self-contained Create function.
Hungry101
Profile Joined November 2015
25 Posts
November 26 2015 07:57 GMT
#7895
On November 26 2015 03:56 JaKaTaKSc2 wrote:
Important question for the most important decision concerning TheCore 3.0

In what scenario can Create/Steal not replace Create?


Firstly, thank you and others for developing The Core. I love it.

I think only Masters+ players answers should be considered because to answer property we need to know the correct way of playing mechanically. That said I'm a plat Zerg scrub using only create,add WITH steal and don't feel I'm missing out on anything.

I can only think of 1 SOFT reason for using create instead of create/steal. Sometimes you may want to have spellcasters in your main army (wrong?) and because you also have Queens in your main army Queens get priority in casting spells. Hence you want to create a new group for Infestor/Vipers without removing them from your main army. But actually I think it might be 'correct' not to have spellcasters in your main army ever and to have them follow your army (slowest unit) and then control them separately when needed.

Thanks again Jaka
Hungry101
Profile Joined November 2015
25 Posts
November 26 2015 11:14 GMT
#7896
My point above can even be made more generically.

Create rather than create/steal is useful whenever a unit type which is part of your main army hotkey needs to be controlled separately. Examples could include Banes (ZvT), Colossus/Disruptors ect. I think this is rare though and may be less efficient than simply ctrl+clicking unit type.
Archiatrus
Profile Joined June 2014
Germany64 Posts
November 26 2015 12:21 GMT
#7897
If you want to have something in two different CGs you can always just add. For example you want your whole army in CG 1 and stalker in CG 2, then you select all army add(!) to CG 1 and ctrl click stalker, add to CG 2. The only problem I see is the case when CG 2 was already used for something else. For example you used it at the beginning of the game for the scouting probe and the probe is still alive. Adding the stalkers means you have the Stalkers AND the probe in CG 2. Work arounds are create/steal stalker to CG 2 and afterwards add to CG 1 again. Or you use a "garbage CG". Press hotkey CG 2, steal/create CG garbage with probe. Now CG 2 is empty and just adding is possible.
bibablub
Profile Joined November 2015
2 Posts
November 26 2015 19:08 GMT
#7898
Maybe it is worth considering splitting the functionality depending on the hotkey group. You could for example take 4 groups with the standard behaviour and the rest with steal. Then you could have your main army move together with additional subgroups while still have the possibility to quickly take a dropship+units and remove it from the main group.
galzohar
Profile Joined November 2010
Israel100 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-26 22:45:05
November 26 2015 22:42 GMT
#7899
Anyone using a razer deathadder mouse and tabbed production with the mouse thumb buttons for tabbing?

As I found the side mouse buttons difficult to press efficiently, I tried a keyboard alternate, but that didn't prove very easy either.

I was thinking of either giving the thumb button a try anyway or giving up on tabbed production altogether, though that would mean the pinky has to work even harder than it currently does.

I'm also still not too sure about which hotkeys I'm actually supposed to use for what to make things flow as smoothly as possible. It's not clear for which version for TheCore each spreadsheet was made for, and which one is the most up to date...
JIffy
Profile Joined November 2015
3 Posts
November 27 2015 05:32 GMT
#7900
Yeah the garbage control group definitely creates a workaround for that situation, although devoting a whole CG to it would feels wrong. Still it confirms for me that at least in normal play there are enough workarounds that with correct forethought and no mistakes Create can be replaced with Create/Steal and there are enough ways to rectify mistakes that the switch is possible.

Although I'm still not sure how well this works in Archon mode as any units you clean out will be removed and if you accidentally add your production for example to an army hotkey and your partner has a production and army hotkey that are the same you now can't steal either the production or the army out of that group to clean or reset it. You would have to take a single army unit to sacrifice and Create/Steal over that group to then be able to just Add the army back into it without production (I think).

The idea of having Create/Steal groups for harass and Create groups for "normal" unit use never even occurred to me and my mind was blown. That could definitely be the most elegant and tailored solution as well as the only one that won't create very inefficient scenarios in both normal play but more importantly Archon mode. As with the above issue it could easily be solved if those main hotkeys worked with Create and there were a few hotkeys with Create/Steal that you could very purposefully use just as harass or segregating units out.

All of this is assuming some form of human error, I think if execution was perfect and a player had specific uses for hotkeys set out before a game then there isn't an issue. However we all play Starcraft so we know how easy mistakes are to make
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