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On November 28 2013 00:18 kalimann wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2013 21:13 subz wrote:
I have never seen my APM or keys as the problem in my play - but I decided to give this a shot because it seemed really off the wall innovative and cool in general. Granted, I tried thecore for only one evening, whilst using TRL, but I really have to admit that I have never felt this lost in a game for a long time. I could see the benefits of thecore, but I really can't see it working out for me.
I want an honest opinion - what are the issues that this layout has solved that many speak of? I know it's different for everybody else, but almost everyone claims the layout fixed their bad habits in one way or the other - I'm curious what those habits were.
I will note that I have a very large hand, with long and slender fingers, it's a hand designed for the piano (which is a shame because I don't play it) - setting my right hand thumb on left control, I can reach F8 with my pinky with no strain whatsoever. My average APM is close to my EPM because I don't spam much, and that's around 120-130. The thing that I disliked most during my initial test of thecore was that it required mouse buttons, and I am using a razer abyssus - and I have no idea where to put these tab buttons on my keyboard, I have been used to keeping my rax factory and starport on 5 6 7 separately. I also know from other games, that I have a problem of adjusting from a style that I have gotten used to - particularly mouse sense in FPS games is a pain.
Should I keep trying to learn it? What will I gain if at my play level I don't use more than 4 camera locations and 9 control groups? The only problem I see with my current layout (slightly modified standard), is that CG's 8-0 are a bit hard to reach even with my hand.
I am asking this because I am at crossroads, when I try to make it work for me, I feel absolutely disgusted by how hard it is to do anything because of muscle memory, and I can't understand should I continue to try make it worth, but when I read this thread the comments are almost only positive. I'd like some feedback on what would you guys suggest to do. Hi, I started using the TRM yesterday. I used a modified version of the Grid layout, so while I could see the functions of this, it was very counterintuitive for me as I was used to figure out the hotkey placement with ease. But on the other hand the placement was easily translatable for me. I'm a relatively new player, but I have grown consistent mechanics fast in this game. I didn't hear about this recently, and I decided to give it a try as I liked how the Core employs your thumb so much - which was basically what I was trying to do with my own Grid layout. The thing is not whether you use more than four camera locations or eight groups; it's all about the ergonomy. First I was flabbergasted at how the design worked out, but the idea really is that once you've broken the barrier and relearned the new muscle memory for this layout, you practically wont have to move you hand whilst employing each of your fingers to the fullest. On one hand (pun not intended) there are not "real" pros that use this layout at the moment. Which advocates that it's not necessary to become a good player - at all. On the other hand, people praise it, and I see why. It definitely has its uses for those who are determined and patient. But if you don't have any real problems with your current layout, you might want to debate with yourself whether you'd want to change. If your wrists, arms or fingers hurt after prolonged sessions, you'd might want to consider. If you feel there are certain options you are cut from because of the classic layout, you'd might want to consider. From my own perspective, it was mostly because I allocated my fingers awkwardly. I wanted to use my thumb for ctrl groups, and was forced to use my pinky for queueing, when I actually didn't want to use the bottom left part of the keyboard. The thing that sold the Core for me, was that it employed the bottom right part, something that I hadn't considered. Now I have spent more than two hours dedicatedly to hotkey trainer maps, interrupted by games with medium bots. Yes, it feels dumb and stupefying in the beginning. But once the muscle memory starts to kick in, you'll see the benefits, if you were looking for them in the first place.
I guess I'm not really looking for that much of a radical change in the way how I execute my game mechanically. I have around 90+ wpm when typing, but I utilize maybe only 3 fingers per hand, similarly in thecore, I find it difficult to use the whole hand and all fingers, when I'm not using more than 3 per hand on a regular basis when I play but have no problem with it. But it's still intriguing to me, I believe I will try to adapt to it now and then just for fun, see how far that goes. 
On a side note: I previously mentioned I have a slightly modified standard layout. The changes are miniscule, I think it's F1-F4 are being used for camera and F8 is select army, and Q is patrol. The only problems I ever run into is when I want to do upgrades on armory and engibays, as they are on 9 & 0 on the keyboard. Anyone have suggestions how to bind them more effectively? Maybe using some modifiers?
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On November 28 2013 00:33 subz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2013 00:18 kalimann wrote:On November 27 2013 21:13 subz wrote:
I have never seen my APM or keys as the problem in my play - but I decided to give this a shot because it seemed really off the wall innovative and cool in general. Granted, I tried thecore for only one evening, whilst using TRL, but I really have to admit that I have never felt this lost in a game for a long time. I could see the benefits of thecore, but I really can't see it working out for me.
I want an honest opinion - what are the issues that this layout has solved that many speak of? I know it's different for everybody else, but almost everyone claims the layout fixed their bad habits in one way or the other - I'm curious what those habits were.
I will note that I have a very large hand, with long and slender fingers, it's a hand designed for the piano (which is a shame because I don't play it) - setting my right hand thumb on left control, I can reach F8 with my pinky with no strain whatsoever. My average APM is close to my EPM because I don't spam much, and that's around 120-130. The thing that I disliked most during my initial test of thecore was that it required mouse buttons, and I am using a razer abyssus - and I have no idea where to put these tab buttons on my keyboard, I have been used to keeping my rax factory and starport on 5 6 7 separately. I also know from other games, that I have a problem of adjusting from a style that I have gotten used to - particularly mouse sense in FPS games is a pain.
Should I keep trying to learn it? What will I gain if at my play level I don't use more than 4 camera locations and 9 control groups? The only problem I see with my current layout (slightly modified standard), is that CG's 8-0 are a bit hard to reach even with my hand.
I am asking this because I am at crossroads, when I try to make it work for me, I feel absolutely disgusted by how hard it is to do anything because of muscle memory, and I can't understand should I continue to try make it worth, but when I read this thread the comments are almost only positive. I'd like some feedback on what would you guys suggest to do. Hi, I started using the TRM yesterday. I used a modified version of the Grid layout, so while I could see the functions of this, it was very counterintuitive for me as I was used to figure out the hotkey placement with ease. But on the other hand the placement was easily translatable for me. I'm a relatively new player, but I have grown consistent mechanics fast in this game. I didn't hear about this recently, and I decided to give it a try as I liked how the Core employs your thumb so much - which was basically what I was trying to do with my own Grid layout. The thing is not whether you use more than four camera locations or eight groups; it's all about the ergonomy. First I was flabbergasted at how the design worked out, but the idea really is that once you've broken the barrier and relearned the new muscle memory for this layout, you practically wont have to move you hand whilst employing each of your fingers to the fullest. On one hand (pun not intended) there are not "real" pros that use this layout at the moment. Which advocates that it's not necessary to become a good player - at all. On the other hand, people praise it, and I see why. It definitely has its uses for those who are determined and patient. But if you don't have any real problems with your current layout, you might want to debate with yourself whether you'd want to change. If your wrists, arms or fingers hurt after prolonged sessions, you'd might want to consider. If you feel there are certain options you are cut from because of the classic layout, you'd might want to consider. From my own perspective, it was mostly because I allocated my fingers awkwardly. I wanted to use my thumb for ctrl groups, and was forced to use my pinky for queueing, when I actually didn't want to use the bottom left part of the keyboard. The thing that sold the Core for me, was that it employed the bottom right part, something that I hadn't considered. Now I have spent more than two hours dedicatedly to hotkey trainer maps, interrupted by games with medium bots. Yes, it feels dumb and stupefying in the beginning. But once the muscle memory starts to kick in, you'll see the benefits, if you were looking for them in the first place. I guess I'm not really looking for that much of a radical change in the way how I execute my game mechanically. I have around 90+ wpm when typing, but I utilize maybe only 3 fingers per hand, similarly in thecore, I find it difficult to use the whole hand and all fingers, when I'm not using more than 3 per hand on a regular basis when I play but have no problem with it. But it's still intriguing to me, I believe I will try to adapt to it now and then just for fun, see how far that goes. On a side note: I previously mentioned I have a slightly modified standard layout. The changes are miniscule, I think it's F1-F4 are being used for camera and F8 is select army, and Q is patrol. The only problems I ever run into is when I want to do upgrades on armory and engibays, as they are on 9 & 0 on the keyboard. Anyone have suggestions how to bind them more effectively? Maybe using some modifiers?
Well, not matter what it's a disadvantage not using all your fingers.
I can't really help you with customizing a standard layout. I used grid as written, and I didn't have much problems stretching from my upgrades (also using 9 and 0), since I almost completely gave up on the Ctrl and Shift on the bottom left (I only used shift for queueing since your forced to do it).
If you can find the fun in practising dedicatedly, you will garanteed find good results from this. If you learn to use all five fingers together with the core, you will certainly look back and see how much more convienently it works (not counting the practice it takes).
GL!
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Hi subz
The first day is the absolute hardest. Every day afterwards is easier and easier until you reach the point where you realize you'll never go back (usually about 2 weeks). Mouse buttons are totally cusomizable! We even put a video in the OP that deals with that specifically and shows you our suggestions for using TheCore without mouse buttons.
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Just out of curiosity, going to try a ZRM (zerg right hand medium) layout on my Orbweaver. Doesn''t have the ability to really operate multiple buttons with the thumb though, it has a side thumb button at the top, an 8 directional pad in the middle, a spacebar like button to tap at the bottom. I find that I can hit the 8 way directional joystick and the top button at the same time though. I could just make all directions = ctrl button. Therefor even if I hit the wrong direction on that joystick, as long as it moves, it will simulate pressing ctrl. Would literally be the same benefit as "TheCore" except instead of using a tilted full size keyboard, would just have a small dedicated gaming pad. Also some keys would have to be modified due to the fact that the orbweaver is limited on how many keys it has.
Thoughts? Just working with the concept of "TheCore" and it seems this piece of hardware would be the perfect partner with such a setup. Especially with the extended use of the otherwise inactive thumb.
http://www.everythingusb.com/images/list/razer_orbweaver_gaming_keypad_news.jpg
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Lots of players have mentioned game pads. I think the ones without the ability to have modifiers on the thumb are missing out on some pretty large optimzations, however the idea overall is the way of the future IMO.
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So far, the orbweaver mixed with a modified "TheCore" ZRM layout is awesome! It's just like "TheCore" but with a piece of hardware to really compliment it. A nice comfy arch to rest your palm, the thumb layout is actually designed for the thumb, which ergonomically feels better to me. I like being able to FEEL the difference between the thumb modifier buttons. On a keyboard, they kind of feel the same until you play with it for a couple of weeks, but even then, I find myself stumbling between alt, ctrl and shift trying to remember which one is to SET the camera, and which one is to JUMP to location. I remapped a few keys and currently don't use all control groups, but definitely have plenty of room to add them. Also remapped "Ctrl" to side mouse button since I don't use "Next ctrl group" function. So now I've got two thumbs employed >
Although I'm not a huge fan of the Cherry MX blues for gaming on the orbweaver, they aren't half bad. The orbweaver MX blues feel slightly more stiff than the MX blues on the blackwidow. I own both, but it just feels as if the actuation is that of a Cherry MX black. Maybe it's because they are angled different, I dunno.
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^Former casual gold player getting back into starcraft after a year or so. It seemed like a good time to switch, so I've been using the core for about a week.
So far so good. Learning most hotkeys has been pretty easy (hotkey trainer helps). Most actions are coming faster and easier than before. Accidental/wrong key-presses are still pretty common for me, but I imaging that'll go away with time. Either way, going back to the standard layout seems out of the question.
Other comments:
-Thanks for the small-hand layout. I'm a adult man with little girly hands.
-I'm a big fan of personalizing hotkeys for any game, but it's a pretty daunting task for SC2. Thanks for doing most of the work for us.
-My $10 mouse doesn't have extra buttons. Spacebar and shift+spacebar seem like good substitutes for cycling subgroups.
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Glad you're enjoying TheCore Underdog
For cycling subgroups I think enter and \ are a bit better than spacebar, but as always, everyone's got their own style.
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So yeah i've been using a heavily modified version of RRL. There is a problem though.. it works perfect for multiplayer but not campaign. Eg. Weapons Attack Upgrade is still the original button. There are a bunch of others that still use the old setting, and I can't find anywhere to actually change it besides from what I've already set.
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The Campaign is a dark and scary place for hotkeys. Changing some of them is very difficult. If Sixtus is out and about it'd be best to ask him. I don't know of many other people who fully understand all of it.
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There's no easy way I'm afraid. I'm not even sure if I can describe it easily.
The maps are set in this file here
Try a search for "/engineeringbay=" and use "next" to scroll through them all.
You will find a chunk of code that looks like thisTerranInfantryArmorLevel1/EngineeringBay=R|R|R|G|A
TerranInfantryArmorVanadiumPlatingLevel1/EngineeringBay=TerranInfantryArmorLevel1/EngineeringBay
TerranInfantryArmorVanadiumPlatingLevel2/EngineeringBay=TerranInfantryArmorLevel1/EngineeringBay
TerranInfantryArmorVanadiumPlatingLevel3/EngineeringBay=TerranInfantryArmorLevel1/EngineeringBay
TerranInfantryWeaponsLevel1/EngineeringBay=G|G|G|R|E
TerranInfantryWeaponsUltraCapacitorsLevel1/EngineeringBay=TerranInfantryWeaponsLevel1/EngineeringBay
TerranInfantryWeaponsUltraCapacitorsLevel2/EngineeringBay=TerranInfantryWeaponsLevel1/EngineeringBay
TerranInfantryWeaponsUltraCapacitorsLevel3/EngineeringBay=TerranInfantryWeaponsLevel1/EngineeringBay
These lines are the parent keysTerranInfantryArmorLevel1/EngineeringBay=R|R|R|G|A
TerranInfantryWeaponsLevel1/EngineeringBay=G|G|G|R|E
The other six lines are children which look at the parent keys and inherit. Key inheritance is actually built into the damn game but Blizzard haven't done it properly.
With this information you would then open up your .SC2Hotkeys file and search for those six childrenTerranInfantryArmorVanadiumPlatingLevel1/EngineeringBay=
TerranInfantryArmorVanadiumPlatingLevel2/EngineeringBay=
TerranInfantryArmorVanadiumPlatingLevel3/EngineeringBay=
TerranInfantryWeaponsUltraCapacitorsLevel1/EngineeringBay=
TerranInfantryWeaponsUltraCapacitorsLevel2/EngineeringBay=
TerranInfantryWeaponsUltraCapacitorsLevel3/EngineeringBay= and change whatever is after the "=" to be the same key as the parents.
For any others you want to change the process would be similar. It's probably easiest to search for building and unit names and scroll through looking for the parent ability/upgrade you have changed.
ie "/gateway="
"/EvolutionChamber="
"/CommandCenter="
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Thanks, I had a feeling it would involve fiddling around with the files manually.
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At first: Great work. Started using The Core yesterday, and I like it so far. Atm it's hard to memorize the Hotkeys, but I can see the idea and effort behind it.
I startet with ZRM, but because I'm far more familiar with my left hand on the left side of the keyboard I will switch to ZLM and I saw in the Cheat Sheet there are no Keys for the abilites (ie Attack Object, Unit Ability 1 etc.). Could you complete them?
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Sorry about that! Fixed it.
Also, TheCore is specifically designed around having your left hand on the right side of the keyboard. Using ZLM is a huge mistake and will seriously hamper your efficiency.
If you are so set in your ways that you will not do this, I suggest looking at TheCore Lite:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333891
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JaKaTaK
I still dont get why on TRM the armorys weapons upgrade key is "E".
My pinky is far far away from the "E" Key, is it a mistake?
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Yeah, after reading the introduction and the Visual Aides again, I noticed my mistake. I will stick with ZRM.
Can you suggest any Arcade Maps especially for the Core?
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Hotkey Trainer by Pibbingston. (Make sure you pick the HotS one)
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I've been considering using TheCore or Chameleon (TheCore Lite now?) for a wile. But is TheCore just the keyboard layout or is it about how to hotkey your units/production facilities as well? Like if I play Terran, is there an "optimal" way to bind your hotkey to barracks, factories, units etc? Or is it just do what makes sense to you?
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On December 06 2013 10:42 Necosarius wrote:
I've been considering using TheCore or Chameleon (TheCore Lite now?) for a wile. But is TheCore just the keyboard layout or is it about how to hotkey your units/production facilities as well? Like if I play Terran, is there an "optimal" way to bind your hotkey to barracks, factories, units etc? Or is it just do what makes sense to you?
TheCore is designed for Terrans to put all CCs (and optionally other buildings) on one key, and barracks/factories/starports all on another single hotkey, utilizing tabbed production. This is to free up the other 8 control groups for various forces/units.
e: I guess not ^^ But I personally think it's the best way to use TheCore.
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@Necosarius
TheCore is just the hotkey layout. We offer suggestions for what we think is most efficient for people who are interested, but they are by no means the only way to use TheCore. Everyone has their own style, and TheCore aims to be the ultimate template for that style.
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EPT
