[G] TheCore - Advanced Keyboard Layout - Page 305

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Nalincah

Germany10 Posts

December 06 2013 09:46 GMT

#6081

On December 06 2013 09:04 JaKaTaK wrote:
Hotkey Trainer by Pibbingston. (Make sure you pick the HotS one)

Thanks. Is there a version with correct descriptions?

Everywhere only "Param/Value/4E90589B and so on

FPyro

Germany47 Posts

December 06 2013 15:24 GMT

#6082

Alright, I just wanted to post a quick "review" if you can call it that.
I've been using the core for a while now and I'm used to it now, more or less. Before I switched to the Core I was a low/mid master Zerg on the EU server.
So far I've not reached that level of play yet, although I've been trying fairly hard. However, this might not be due to the core.
My subjective feeling is that while the core is certainly well thought through, it doesn't offer me any major advantages overall. I never use more than 4-5 control groups and don't need a camera for each hatch for example.
However, I also have pretty big hands and I see how people with smaller hands get more benefits from using it.
Maybe I need to play more to realize the full advantages, but so far I kinda miss my old layout... not sure if going back would make sense though.
I wonder if anybody else here is sharing my feelings currently or has done so in the past?

Thanks

JaKaTaKSc2

United States2787 Posts

December 06 2013 17:28 GMT

#6083

@Nalincah
starcraft://map/1/203953

This one should work well. Just copy the link and put in in an sc2 chat. Then click it

Nalincah

Germany10 Posts

December 06 2013 19:36 GMT

#6084

On December 07 2013 02:28 JaKaTaK wrote:
@Nalincah
starcraft://map/1/203953

This one should work well. Just copy the link and put in in an sc2 chat. Then click it

After switching from German to Englisch, everything was fine

Necosarius

Sweden4042 Posts

December 06 2013 20:12 GMT

#6085

On December 06 2013 15:34 JaKaTaK wrote:
@Necosarius
TheCore is just the hotkey layout. We offer suggestions for what we think is most efficient for people who are interested, but they are by no means the only way to use TheCore. Everyone has their own style, and TheCore aims to be the ultimate template for that style.

Alright, thanks for answering! So what would a good hotkey setup be for a right-handed Terran to begin with?

JaKaTaKSc2

United States2787 Posts

December 06 2013 20:51 GMT

#6086

TRM

After 2 weeks, if you're feeling too cramped switch to TRL, and if you're feeling too stretched out switch to TRS. They're very easy switches to make as the layout is just shifted one key to the left or right.

EDIT: I realize now that you may have been using the words "hotkey" and "control group" interchangeably. Let me know if you meant control groups.

Necosarius

Sweden4042 Posts

December 06 2013 21:15 GMT

#6087

Yeah sorry, I meant control groups

lailaiwd

United States65 Posts

December 07 2013 00:10 GMT

#6088

I believe this could be an observation mentioned many times in the past but I don't have the time to go back and check all the posts before. I apologize for the possible redundancy. The core is able to help us achieve efficiency in terms of single kay strokes so it restricts each of our fingers to certain tasks like our pinky is strictly for functions, ring and middle are for CGs. One of the flaws I see with only two fingers controlling the CGs could be for multitasking because using the CORE to control a late game army like the terran army involving more than two tech unit like viking and ghost will not be as efficient as the normal key layout because the normal layout allows you to control 3 CGs with 3 different fingers. I absolutely agree that in most situations thecore will be far superior but I think this might be a reason why the Korean pros wouldn't want to switch to the core. The benefit of being able to control different groups of units with all five fingers could potentially outweigh the benefit of having the most efficient single commands because to achieve 400 apm, one does not necessarily need to have the fastest key strokes but might need to control multiple groups with different fingers for purposes of multitasking. It is possible that there is a threshold beyond which absolute efficiency for single commands starts to interfere with the players' ability to multitask and have all five fingers to micro and macro around the map.

JaKaTaKSc2

United States2787 Posts

December 07 2013 00:49 GMT

#6089

What I think you're overlooking here is that controlling an army is more than just selecting Control Groups, but selecting abilites that follow them (like attack or casting spells). TheCore separates finger usage not for the sake of increased APM, or for the sake of single key strokes, but for increased speed in key combinations by eliminating finger repetition. This especially comes into play when controlling a late game army as a horizontal split like in standard/grid causes lots of finger repetition. The more actions that are happening at once, the more beneficial TheCore is.

lailaiwd

United States65 Posts

December 07 2013 01:16 GMT

#6090

The situation I'm considering is where having a differently finger click on different control groups might be more important than achieving the fastest key combination. It just feels more natural to control 5 different control groups with five different fingers. Using the middle and the index finger for more than two control groups but have the greater ability casting efficiency can be more beneficial in theory but I'm not sure in practice one can multitask different units with only two fingers better than one can with five fingers. The idea that one finger is assigned to one control group coincides with the idea that fingers should be split into functional uses and CG only uses, and trigger uses. But in real games, I think there are situations favoring either way of separating the use for different fingers. For example, Day9 mentioned the concept of tapping, and sometimes just tapping on different CGs and checking their status without performing any actual functions is important. Achieving tapping with the core is much more cumbersome since you need to use two fingers to cycle through 8 CGs. I'm not advocating in any way that standard layout is as efficient as thecore because I use thecore and it's clearly awesome. But I'm suggesting the possibility of having perhaps three fingers for control groups and only the pinky for abilities. I think there could be better gameplay with somewhat of a middle to the road approach. Again, I think there could be research done to prove the efficiency with thecore if we knew exactly what serial actions to perform, however there could not be a research done to incorporate the benefits of inefficient CGs cycling like tapping. The real test to any theory is real wins, and I think it wouldn't hurt to create different versions such that we can measure the performance of each layout by the ladder rankings of the user base. I understand this could be an extreme amount of work to do, but I think there could be a misalignment of theory and practice here. If we were doing a statistical data analysis, the response shouldn't be efficiency, but ability to win. However, given the elusive nature of this "winning ability," we should really take a step back from the approach of constructing layouts based on theory, and create many test versions to yield data to arrive at statistically significant outcomes to adjust the theory for things like human error and the way our brains handle multitasking.

JaKaTaKSc2

United States2787 Posts

December 07 2013 04:26 GMT

#6091

I would love to do that. However, the number of variables that go into winning a game of starcraft 2 is insane. I think that win% and league are some of the least meaningful metrics we have in Sc2 and that we can do much better. Also, our sample size would have to be significantly bigger to have enough weight to challenge the theory IMO.

TheCore was designed specifically around The Tap from Day9. Its one of the reasons we suggest a 2 CG Macro set up, so that you can quickly check all of your production without haven't to leave the home row.

3 CG 1 Ability split is definitely one of the options. SCA Tieria plays Zerg and uses this kind of a setup.

lailaiwd

United States65 Posts

December 07 2013 04:47 GMT

#6092

Thank you for the intelligent response, JaKaTak. I think after some thoughts, I realize that there really is no one size-fits-all solution for different players. It now occurs to me thecore has the advantage of being very clear about why it's superior to the standard layout. The fact that its sole focus is on efficiency for key-combinations provides the guiding star for a player aspiring to improve. Thank you very much again for making thecore possible!

JaKaTaKSc2

United States2787 Posts

December 07 2013 07:14 GMT

#6093

Thank you lailaiwd for the discussion. I do think more analysis like you describe will be possible in the future, and I'm looking forward to the time when we have enough of a player base to do so :D

Harreh

90 Posts

December 07 2013 11:18 GMT

#6094

Gonna check out TheCore lite.. to be honest I just took RRL and shifted the grid all the way to the left. Works fine.

CursedFeanor

Canada539 Posts

December 07 2013 14:08 GMT

#6095

I've looked back several pages, but I couldn't find where the switch from '/' to 'i' was made for the stim ability (using TRM 1.0). What exactly was the rationale behind this change? I'm asking because I personally had to revert this after trying the version 1 and sporadically stimming my whole army accidentally because I was trying to quickly build more marauders in the midst of battle.

Having such a crucial and damaging ability at the same key as a common unit to build is too risky. I don't mind siegeing my tanks or burrowing my widow mines by mistake... but hurting my whole bioball is a game-ending mistake I can't afford. Stim should not be treated as your typical ability which needs quick access. It should need a very "deliberate" key to prevent mistakes. I thought the '/' was perfect for that, using the thumb and all...

In any case, congrats on hitting version 1 at long last!

edit: even SCV production is on the same key... that wasn't the problem for me, but I can see it as troublesome for others.

JaKaTaKSc2

United States2787 Posts

December 07 2013 15:44 GMT

#6096

@Harreh
Using TheCore on the wrong side of the keyboard is very inefficient compared to using it on the correct side. If you are set on keeping your hotkeys on the side you're used to. TheCore Lite has just finished and is ready for download.

@CursedFeanor
We decided for 1.0 to go with faster keys for the stock version, allowing people who want to push those keys out to do so as a customization. Everyone's got their own style, so I'd rather push out the most efficient version and let people move to less efficient keys if they find it makes more sense for them.

Antylamon

United States1981 Posts

December 07 2013 15:53 GMT

#6097

On December 07 2013 23:08 CursedFeanor wrote:
I've looked back several pages, but I couldn't find where the switch from '/' to 'i' was made for the stim ability (using TRM 1.0). What exactly was the rationale behind this change? I'm asking because I personally had to revert this after trying the version 1 and sporadically stimming my whole army accidentally because I was trying to quickly build more marauders in the midst of battle.

Having such a crucial and damaging ability at the same key as a common unit to build is too risky. I don't mind siegeing my tanks or burrowing my widow mines by mistake... but hurting my whole bioball is a game-ending mistake I can't afford. Stim should not be treated as your typical ability which needs quick access. It should need a very "deliberate" key to prevent mistakes. I thought the '/' was perfect for that, using the thumb and all...

It was actually swapped from i to slash way beck when, but was reverted after a while. Mostly the logic was that i is faster and Stim is used a heck of a lot for it to be on a slow key like Slash. Also, Slash would conflict with a bunch of hotkeys as well, meaning you would be in the middle of a battle and you could easily lift off all your Rax by accident.

Harreh

90 Posts

December 07 2013 17:29 GMT

#6098

I honestly have no problem using RRL shifted all the way left. It works fine.

I don't disagree with you though. I think I might use the caps/space build combo since building a robo bay is very bad with this set up.

JDub

United States976 Posts

December 07 2013 18:06 GMT

#6099

On December 08 2013 02:29 Harreh wrote:
I honestly have no problem using RRL shifted all the way left. It works fine.

I don't disagree with you though. I think I might use the caps/space build combo since building a robo bay is very bad with this set up.

How do you use Ctrl+Shift if you can't press them both with your thumb? Isn't that a bit awkward?

Antylamon

United States1981 Posts

December 07 2013 18:31 GMT

#6100

On December 08 2013 03:06 JDub wrote:

Show nested quote +

How do you use Ctrl+Shift if you can't press them both with your thumb? Isn't that a bit awkward?

Pinky is slower, but it seems like it would feel alright.