EPT[G] TheCore - Advanced Keyboard Layout - Page 109
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HumpingHydra
Canada97 Posts
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
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HumpingHydra
Canada97 Posts
I use ZRM, latest version. I installed today. I could be wrong but i've been fooling around I can't set the 0 (its control group 2) control group at all. I use control + shift + key, and I can't get it to create control group. However, If I manually right click the add to control group ingame tab on the UI, I can create the control group, and add units to this control group freely using control + key. Im almost certain this isn't a keyboard issue as all other control groups function properly. Might be worth looking into, although, I could be crazy for a second time. EDIT: I can also access this control group by tapping the 0 key normally. | ||
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slowbacontron
United States7722 Posts
On December 28 2012 10:05 HumpingHydra wrote: Ok I got it installed and everything is awesome!!!! Thanks a ton!! I use ZRM, latest version. I installed today. I could be wrong but i've been fooling around I can't set the 0 (its control group 2) control group at all. I use control + shift + key, and I can't get it to create control group. However, If I manually right click the add to control group ingame tab on the UI, I can create the control group, and add units to this control group freely using control + key. Im almost certain this isn't a keyboard issue as all other control groups function properly. Might be worth looking into, although, I could be crazy for a second time. EDIT: I can also access this control group by tapping the 0 key normally. OP, FAQ, question 10  | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
Good to not be alone in it.Also, dont get too discouraged HumpingHydra, its a big OP.  | ||
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HumpingHydra
Canada97 Posts
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Marimokkori
United States306 Posts
The hotkey to upgrade psi storm is J, but to cast it the hotkey is I. IMO it's more natural to make the upgrade and cast hotkey the same, but it doesn't really matter if you get used to them being different. However, implementing things like this will make it easier for people to learn. For another example, Warp Prism Speed and building warp prisms would be easier to recall if both have the same hotkey. Thermal Lance and Collosus both have the same hotkey, which I think is great, but perhaps an accident as it seems J is simply the key used for the primary function at any given building. Which, I don't think is a bad idea, I just think it can be taken a step further. Build Zealot = J Build Stalker = I Upgrade Charge = I Upgrade Blink = J Cast Blink = I Things like this just feel off to me and makes the layout more... unnatural to use. I've changed things like this that I've come across in my adjustments to the awesome layout that is TheCore. Build Zealot = J Build Stalker = I Upgrade Charge = J Upgrade Blink = I Cast blink = I This I think is much more natural and easier for people to learn/remember. Everything related to a stalker is I, all zealot things are J, etc. | ||
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bourkes
Australia9 Posts
Marimokkori, that sounds like a good idea, i might try it, every time i go for charge i try to start blink and so on, going to change them now | ||
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Remontoir
Australia4 Posts
I've used the core for a couple of months now and one of the big things that I liked doing (as a master league zerg) is to pre-hotkey locations where i'm going to expand later in the game when there is nothing to do early on in the game. The problem I had with the core seemed to be that when i hovered my camera over the location that I wanted to hotkey and tried to set the normal base location keys it would obviously just center on whatever I had selected. The lead me to have to use free cam hotkeys to plan out where I would put my bases and the later re-location key those bases. About a month ago I found a way around this. (And I think you should mention this in the faq for how to premake location hotkeys) You hold down alt (which causes your screen to jump to whatever is centered) and then keep holding alt while clicking on one of the base locations on the minimap (You'll notice that holding down alt only centers on current selection once and doesn't keep jumping back) and then push L or K or ; or whatever. The location hotkey is now set to that location without needing to have a unit or building there to center on. I would also like to suggest putting the location keys on ; l k p o i instead of - 0 9 for the medium layout. I don't really see a reason to move them further away. | ||
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JDub
United States976 Posts
On December 28 2012 18:01 Remontoir wrote: Okay jakatak. I think this is pretty useful information if no one has figured this out yet. (I haven't read through the whole thread) I've used the core for a couple of months now and one of the big things that I liked doing (as a master league zerg) is to pre-hotkey locations where i'm going to expand later in the game when there is nothing to do early on in the game. The problem I had with the core seemed to be that when i hovered my camera over the location that I wanted to hotkey and tried to set the normal base location keys it would obviously just center on whatever I had selected. The lead me to have to use free cam hotkeys to plan out where I would put my bases and the later re-location key those bases. About a month ago I found a way around this. (And I think you should mention this in the faq for how to premake location hotkeys) You hold down alt (which causes your screen to jump to whatever is centered) and then keep holding alt while clicking on one of the base locations on the minimap (You'll notice that holding down alt only centers on current selection once and doesn't keep jumping back) and then push L or K or ; or whatever. The location hotkey is now set to that location without needing to have a unit or building there to center on. I would also like to suggest putting the location keys on ; l k p o i instead of - 0 9 for the medium layout. I don't really see a reason to move them further away. This is mentioned in the FAQ for question 2. The location keys can't overlap with ability keys because you need to be able to shift-queue abilities (so you'd have a conflict between recall location and shift queuing an ability. | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
Had you mentioned this a few months ago I would have given the standard response: "We do not make TheCore easy to learn when it sacrifices efficiency. TheCore is based on data, so that the primary functions of each structure are on the fastest to press key." However, I've been playing a lot of HotS recently. The game is completely different. Some units that would never be used before are now used super frequently *cough* HYRDRA *cough* Now, we could take a look at another huge batch of replays for HotS, but then what happens when the metagame has a shift? The data we used to initially create the layout is absolutely out of date for HotS and maybe even WoL. I don't think rearranging the hotkeys every time we find new unit frequencies is a good idea. As a player that has gone through every single change that TheCore has undergone, including the very many changes that never made it to the public versions, this can be a huge setback to improvement. I've already started thinking of some ideas. Zerg Larva - Prioritize by cost: You'll likely build more zerglings than ultras, simply because the cost prevents the number you will make. ( this might also work with T and P) All units and buildings - Prioritize by Tech Tree: The longer it takes to get to a certain unit, the less likely it will be built. This is a relatively unchanging part of Sc2. Upgrades - Match Units: Upgrades are very seldom researched (at max 3 times per game) and are often on homekeys. The point you bring up is a great example of this. The difference between I and J in speed is very small, and the frequency of blink and charge per game average is so much smaller than the number of units created. I'll start building a prototype. Thanks @Remontoir The most important videos are the first 4 ( the "Why TheCore?" and the Quick Start Guide). I strongly suggest you watch all of them (less than 30 minutes) The answer to your question is in the 3rd QSG video. | ||
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Crantly
1 Post
A little background: up until I began college 2 and a half years ago, RTS games were stupid and overly complicated. Freshman year I took a bite out of the hype donut and bought Starcraft 2. Played through campaign without really knowing what I was doing. Turned my attention to multiplayer; played a single game and decided this games too fucking stressful. Fast forward a year: New roommate tells me about hitting diamond in the beta and likes watching pros play. This guys obviously a nutcase. Another year into the future and I've watched countless hours of professional Starcraft (Initially Husky and HD, until we subscribed to GSL). Decide to actually attempt the ladder again. Should also note I played maybe 15 games on ladder somewhere prior to this and scraped out a spot in Silver League. Overall not very much time using standard keyboard layout. Downloaded TheCore RRMM and began my epic nooby journey. By the end of that season I found myself in platinum league feeling far more familiar with the keyboard than ever before. Since, ladder anxiety has once again set in and I'm hiding >.> Thanks JaKaTaK for the intuitive setup! | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
I would highly suggest TheStaircase method for improvement to help defeat your ladder anxiety. It takes the focus of winning and measures your improvement so you can feel good about any game you play well (not just the ones you win). TheCore is about to have a major overhaul done and we will be releasing version 0.6 when that (and the campain/custom compatibility are finished) You can check out the change log as we make the changes and read up on why we're doing what we're doing here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtFSjIb2ibJTdFQ4LVlIcllUUWtGUVY4cWxyLXd6QUE#gid=24 I will also be streaming as I do the changes right now at twitch.tv/thejakatak. Please come by if you agree/disagree with the changes so we can discuss ideas for 0.6 :D www.twitch.tv/thejakatak | ||
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Marimokkori
United States306 Posts
Build Templar Archives = I Research Storm = I Build High Templar = I Cast Storm = I Or K or some other key, but you get the idea. Going this deep into making related functions the same key may not be as practical as far as design goes, but it may work well for some. And keep in mind that this doesn't just apply to protoss. I'm not sure what the current terran keys are, but research concussive shell and build marauder could be synchronized also, just things like that. Build spawning pool / ling speed / morph lings. Just an idea for others out there. Some other changes I have made to my personal version: Moved Locations 7 & 8 to [ & ] (Making them layered with alt to create, shift to recall) + Show Spoiler [Reasoning] + It again felt a little awkward to me to have some camera keys function slightly differently than the rest. These were also the only cameras that weren't combined with control groups to save space. I decided to move them, because I wanted some camera keys on [ & ] for my bases. The suggested Nexus control group is P, which I have been using. So, I use P for my main base camera and I want to use [ & ] for my natural and third cameras. Moved Build High Templar to K Moved Change to Warpgate to N + Show Spoiler + I wanted to put the build high templar key somewhere else. It's the only unit construction key I've seen for toss that is on the "control group side" (though I think there are more like this in hots, maybe the tempest) of the layout. It's also right next to Enter, and I keep accidentally opening chat when I want to make a ht. For now I am going to make this K, and I have moved warpgate to N in order to compensate. (but perhaps I just need more practice with the layout) Moved Research Gravitic Drive to M + Show Spoiler + I moved the upgrade for the same reason I switched charge and blink. So it matches the construction hotkey of warp prisms. | ||
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sanddbox_sc2
United States173 Posts
One of the things I noticed with the current setup is that (in this case, I'll use zerg as an example) the hotkey to upgrade armor for ground units and upgrade armor for air units is different. With the 4 keys your fingers are resting on, there's very little difference in efficiency between each, so each upgrade should match other upgrades/units as closely as possible. The person above gave the example of matching charge/zealot and stalker/blink; similarly, air attack/ranged attack and air carapace/ground carapace should be the same hotkey. Also, the more rarely a unit/structure is made, the less important it becomes to have an efficient hotkey, and the more important it becomes to have a hotkey that won't cause errors. One of the risks with having keys closer together is that it's easier to mess up buildings, so rare units/buildings - such as dark templar shrines, ultras, etc, should have hotkeys that are more about being "unique" than efficient. Those are all my thoughts for now; I'll post more if I think of anything else. | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
I disagree that "One of the risks with having keys closer together is that it's easier to mess up buildings" for the same reason. We are making changes for consistency in upgrades where it makes sense. But not all areas make sense. I think most of the attack and defense upgrades are consistent with each other. | ||
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kirika80
Israel17 Posts
Like Marimokkori said, in some cases, while abilities aren't actually the same, they are still related cognitively and when you play random there are more of those because you also have "cross-race dependencies". This starts with upgrades (as much as possible, use the same keys for upgrading the different races), terran lift-off/zerg uproot (that's the key to press when you want to move a building), certain spells that are used similarly (EMP/fungal/psi storm, although they happen to be on the same key already), and I'm sure there are others I haven't thought of yet. Obviously this is more useful for Random because it relates to different races, but even in the race-specific layout you could make changes to the off-race keys to more closely match the main race. (so in terran layout make zerg root/uproot match the terran keys, for example). On a different note, I happened to be watching your stream last night when you "said goodbye to select worker". Although I don't remember ever using it, it is still available in WoL so you probably shouldn't get rid of it altogether. | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
The things you are suggesting are exactly what we are doing! :D Although I didn't think of the uproot, lift-off thing. I'll have to look at the keys and see if I can make it work without sacrificing too much efficiency. As a random player, if you could list for me all the things you want to be the same between races, that would be tremendous help to me. Also, the fungal/psi storm/EMP was intentional select worker is not useful in the same way having a hotkey for rally is not useful. You can just make a box around the building and it will select your worker. Making room for a key in this situation is a mistake IMO. | ||
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maLaK1
Germany124 Posts
On December 30 2012 00:33 JaKaTaK wrote: @kirka The things you are suggesting are exactly what we are doing! :D Although I didn't think of the uproot, lift-off thing. I'll have to look at the keys and see if I can make it work without sacrificing too much efficiency. As a random player, if you could list for me all the things you want to be the same between races, that would be tremendous help to me. please don't implement suggestions from people who don't actually use the core for the main race layouts I'm using it since the first version, and I can't speak for everyone but I would say that for people like us who have played hundreds of games using it and are used to the style and learned the keys its very comfortable dont sacrifice efficiency for simplicity or easiness to learn the layout example: as a zerg the uproot / rootr and burrow / unburrow are perfect | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
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