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On June 01 2012 06:50 Eids wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 09:16 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:
And even after the fact, he has made this a complete all-in without doing a follow-up which in turn if it fails he loses. He is stating he has a 80-90% win rate which overall comes down to how lucky he is on his opponent not scouting/seeing this attack and if denied he has no follow up.
. Were you referring to me not having a follow-up?
Yes. Making 3-5 spinecrawlers isn't a follow-up. It's just showing you're afraid of a all-in when you could deter that same and make a roach warren with evo chamber for +1 missile and take a 3rd and still be safe because you'll have the larvae to make lings and should have 3-4 queens after doing a nydus. If you want to (which I do) is get Burrow and send the lings out to expansions burrowing them instead of just camping them since a ling is so fragile in that point of the game.
A competent protoss will either try to take a expansion, have their stargate with void production going from their natural or 4-6 gate pressure all-in.
Pending what you see, roach/ling/queen will prevent and counter those builds especially when you have 3 base to a 1-2 base.
Either way you look at it, you're still ahead doing what I said instead of making 3-5 spines. Only need 1 at your expo with doing this.
But what do I know, I've been doing this since season 2, did it at MLG's, and still do it to this day on specific maps or vs certain openings.
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On June 01 2012 07:00 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 06:50 Eids wrote:On May 30 2012 09:16 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:
And even after the fact, he has made this a complete all-in without doing a follow-up which in turn if it fails he loses. He is stating he has a 80-90% win rate which overall comes down to how lucky he is on his opponent not scouting/seeing this attack and if denied he has no follow up.
. Were you referring to me not having a follow-up? Yes. Making 3-5 spinecrawlers isn't a follow-up. It's just showing you're afraid of a all-in when you could deter that same and make a roach warren with evo chamber for +1 missile and take a 3rd and still be safe because you'll have the larvae to make lings and should have 3-4 queens after doing a nydus. If you want to (which I do) is get Burrow and send the lings out to expansions burrowing them instead of just camping them since a ling is so fragile in that point of the game. A competent protoss will either try to take a expansion, have their stargate with void production going from their natural or 4-6 gate pressure all-in. Pending what you see, roach/ling/queen will prevent and counter those builds especially when you have 3 base to a 1-2 base. Either way you look at it, you're still ahead doing what I said instead of making 3-5 spines. Only need 1 at your expo with doing this. But what do I know, I've been doing this since season 2, did it at MLG's, and still do it to this day on specific maps or vs certain openings.
You realize I was making 3-5 spines at HIS main, not at my natural, preventing him to retake his main while scouting around the other possible expansions he could expand to with speedlings. This way there is no way of him taking an expo, and no way of him taking his main. Read before commenting please.
Edit.
As I said in the guide, once you have killed off his main, there are really no way of losing the game if you just keep him from expanding. ie do whatever followup you want based on what he does
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On June 01 2012 07:15 Eids wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 07:00 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:On June 01 2012 06:50 Eids wrote:On May 30 2012 09:16 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:
And even after the fact, he has made this a complete all-in without doing a follow-up which in turn if it fails he loses. He is stating he has a 80-90% win rate which overall comes down to how lucky he is on his opponent not scouting/seeing this attack and if denied he has no follow up.
. Were you referring to me not having a follow-up? Yes. Making 3-5 spinecrawlers isn't a follow-up. It's just showing you're afraid of a all-in when you could deter that same and make a roach warren with evo chamber for +1 missile and take a 3rd and still be safe because you'll have the larvae to make lings and should have 3-4 queens after doing a nydus. If you want to (which I do) is get Burrow and send the lings out to expansions burrowing them instead of just camping them since a ling is so fragile in that point of the game. A competent protoss will either try to take a expansion, have their stargate with void production going from their natural or 4-6 gate pressure all-in. Pending what you see, roach/ling/queen will prevent and counter those builds especially when you have 3 base to a 1-2 base. Either way you look at it, you're still ahead doing what I said instead of making 3-5 spines. Only need 1 at your expo with doing this. But what do I know, I've been doing this since season 2, did it at MLG's, and still do it to this day on specific maps or vs certain openings. You realize I was making 3-5 spines at HIS main, not at my natural, preventing him to retake his main while scouting around the other possible expansions he could expand to with speedlings. This way there is no way of him taking an expo, and no way of him taking his main. Read before commenting please. Edit. As I said in the guide, once you have killed off his main, there are really no way of losing the game if you just keep him from expanding. ie do whatever followup you want based on what he does
Making 3-5 at his main is still not needed. You're wasting 350-500 minerals only something that isn't required. 1-2 is fine if you want to harass his mineral line/pylons at his natural but either way, just by putting creep tumors down and spreading creep in his main you've already done what you needed to do.
And even still, you still haven't given a exceptional follow-up. What if he doesnt gg? What if he goes 5-6 gate? You wont have anything other than lings/queens to back up which in turn zlot/sentry/stalker counter that when its all-in especially since they would have started their +1 attack.
And by saying "do whatever follow-up you want" isn't valid at all. Just shows that yes you have tried doing something but haven't fully thought it through to the end with it.
I uploaded a few replays of what I've been doing now for 5 straight seasons with a complete follow through. Each replay will show you early game gg, mid game gg and late game gg.
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On June 01 2012 07:24 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 07:15 Eids wrote:On June 01 2012 07:00 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:On June 01 2012 06:50 Eids wrote:On May 30 2012 09:16 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:
And even after the fact, he has made this a complete all-in without doing a follow-up which in turn if it fails he loses. He is stating he has a 80-90% win rate which overall comes down to how lucky he is on his opponent not scouting/seeing this attack and if denied he has no follow up.
. Were you referring to me not having a follow-up? Yes. Making 3-5 spinecrawlers isn't a follow-up. It's just showing you're afraid of a all-in when you could deter that same and make a roach warren with evo chamber for +1 missile and take a 3rd and still be safe because you'll have the larvae to make lings and should have 3-4 queens after doing a nydus. If you want to (which I do) is get Burrow and send the lings out to expansions burrowing them instead of just camping them since a ling is so fragile in that point of the game. A competent protoss will either try to take a expansion, have their stargate with void production going from their natural or 4-6 gate pressure all-in. Pending what you see, roach/ling/queen will prevent and counter those builds especially when you have 3 base to a 1-2 base. Either way you look at it, you're still ahead doing what I said instead of making 3-5 spines. Only need 1 at your expo with doing this. But what do I know, I've been doing this since season 2, did it at MLG's, and still do it to this day on specific maps or vs certain openings. You realize I was making 3-5 spines at HIS main, not at my natural, preventing him to retake his main while scouting around the other possible expansions he could expand to with speedlings. This way there is no way of him taking an expo, and no way of him taking his main. Read before commenting please. Edit. As I said in the guide, once you have killed off his main, there are really no way of losing the game if you just keep him from expanding. ie do whatever followup you want based on what he does Making 3-5 at his main is still not needed. You're wasting 350-500 minerals only something that isn't required. 1-2 is fine if you want to harass his mineral line/pylons at his natural but either way, just by putting creep tumors down and spreading creep in his main you've already done what you needed to do. And even still, you still haven't given a exceptional follow-up. What if he doesnt gg? What if he goes 5-6 gate? You wont have anything other than lings/queens to back up which in turn zlot/sentry/stalker counter that when its all-in especially since they would have started their +1 attack. And by saying "do whatever follow-up you want" isn't valid at all. Just shows that yes you have tried doing something but haven't fully thought it through to the end with it. I uploaded a few replays of what I've been doing now for 5 straight seasons with a complete follow through. Each replay will show you early game gg, mid game gg and late game gg.
I think you fail to realize that attacking at 7:30 is probably alot different than doing your build at 7:00. This means to things.
A) I will probably kill off alot more infrastructure. (Due to most of it being in the main)
B) I will probably have alot more economy
This leaves protoss with something like 2 gates and a forge with +1. or maybe an additional robo at tops.
Securing the main with 3-4 spines is SUPER cost efficient at this point, and you wont have to wait for roach warren. This way you can secure his main 100% while probably picking off 1 of his gateway/robo/something. Either way, there is no way you can move down that ramp WITH roaches cause of sentry. So you might as well drone instead.
(I wasn't at all saying that roaches wouldn't work, ofcourse they would. The main objective was securing their main.)
This is also the reason for me not giving the exact followup.
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On June 01 2012 07:40 Eids wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 07:24 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:On June 01 2012 07:15 Eids wrote:On June 01 2012 07:00 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:On June 01 2012 06:50 Eids wrote:On May 30 2012 09:16 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:
And even after the fact, he has made this a complete all-in without doing a follow-up which in turn if it fails he loses. He is stating he has a 80-90% win rate which overall comes down to how lucky he is on his opponent not scouting/seeing this attack and if denied he has no follow up.
. Were you referring to me not having a follow-up? Yes. Making 3-5 spinecrawlers isn't a follow-up. It's just showing you're afraid of a all-in when you could deter that same and make a roach warren with evo chamber for +1 missile and take a 3rd and still be safe because you'll have the larvae to make lings and should have 3-4 queens after doing a nydus. If you want to (which I do) is get Burrow and send the lings out to expansions burrowing them instead of just camping them since a ling is so fragile in that point of the game. A competent protoss will either try to take a expansion, have their stargate with void production going from their natural or 4-6 gate pressure all-in. Pending what you see, roach/ling/queen will prevent and counter those builds especially when you have 3 base to a 1-2 base. Either way you look at it, you're still ahead doing what I said instead of making 3-5 spines. Only need 1 at your expo with doing this. But what do I know, I've been doing this since season 2, did it at MLG's, and still do it to this day on specific maps or vs certain openings. You realize I was making 3-5 spines at HIS main, not at my natural, preventing him to retake his main while scouting around the other possible expansions he could expand to with speedlings. This way there is no way of him taking an expo, and no way of him taking his main. Read before commenting please. Edit. As I said in the guide, once you have killed off his main, there are really no way of losing the game if you just keep him from expanding. ie do whatever followup you want based on what he does Making 3-5 at his main is still not needed. You're wasting 350-500 minerals only something that isn't required. 1-2 is fine if you want to harass his mineral line/pylons at his natural but either way, just by putting creep tumors down and spreading creep in his main you've already done what you needed to do. And even still, you still haven't given a exceptional follow-up. What if he doesnt gg? What if he goes 5-6 gate? You wont have anything other than lings/queens to back up which in turn zlot/sentry/stalker counter that when its all-in especially since they would have started their +1 attack. And by saying "do whatever follow-up you want" isn't valid at all. Just shows that yes you have tried doing something but haven't fully thought it through to the end with it. I uploaded a few replays of what I've been doing now for 5 straight seasons with a complete follow through. Each replay will show you early game gg, mid game gg and late game gg. I think you fail to realize that attacking at 7:30 is probably alot different than doing your build at 7:00. This means to things. A) I will probably kill off alot more infrastructure. (Due to most of it being in the main) B) I will probably have alot more economy This leaves protoss with something like 2 gates and a forge with +1. or maybe an additional robo at tops. Securing the main with 3-4 spines is SUPER cost efficient at this point, and you wont have to wait for roach warren. This way you can secure his main 100% while probably picking off 1 of his gateway/robo/something. Either way, there is no way you can move down that ramp WITH roaches cause of sentry. So you might as well drone instead. (I wasn't at all saying that roaches wouldn't work, ofcourse they would. The main objective was securing their main.) This is also the reason for me not giving the exact followup.
If you download the replays you would see exactly how much damage can be done by doing it my way and its much safer overall.
Huge differences between the builds. Yours just seems way to flimsy if it fails because you are forcing yourself to make it work or its gg. Whereas with mine you are able to stay ahead and up to par even if it fails or not enough damage is done. Have plenty of replays where nydus doesnt do as much damage as it needed too and yet still ahead and still come out on top with it.
Either way, there is no way you can move down that ramp WITH roaches cause of sentry. So you might as well drone instead.
Why do you think I opt for burrow? Only common sense to get tunneling claws once you get burrow if going roaches. Guess roaches are unable to burrow move under FF now. That is a new memo to me.
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On June 01 2012 07:53 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 07:40 Eids wrote:On June 01 2012 07:24 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:On June 01 2012 07:15 Eids wrote:On June 01 2012 07:00 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:On June 01 2012 06:50 Eids wrote:On May 30 2012 09:16 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:
And even after the fact, he has made this a complete all-in without doing a follow-up which in turn if it fails he loses. He is stating he has a 80-90% win rate which overall comes down to how lucky he is on his opponent not scouting/seeing this attack and if denied he has no follow up.
. Were you referring to me not having a follow-up? Yes. Making 3-5 spinecrawlers isn't a follow-up. It's just showing you're afraid of a all-in when you could deter that same and make a roach warren with evo chamber for +1 missile and take a 3rd and still be safe because you'll have the larvae to make lings and should have 3-4 queens after doing a nydus. If you want to (which I do) is get Burrow and send the lings out to expansions burrowing them instead of just camping them since a ling is so fragile in that point of the game. A competent protoss will either try to take a expansion, have their stargate with void production going from their natural or 4-6 gate pressure all-in. Pending what you see, roach/ling/queen will prevent and counter those builds especially when you have 3 base to a 1-2 base. Either way you look at it, you're still ahead doing what I said instead of making 3-5 spines. Only need 1 at your expo with doing this. But what do I know, I've been doing this since season 2, did it at MLG's, and still do it to this day on specific maps or vs certain openings. You realize I was making 3-5 spines at HIS main, not at my natural, preventing him to retake his main while scouting around the other possible expansions he could expand to with speedlings. This way there is no way of him taking an expo, and no way of him taking his main. Read before commenting please. Edit. As I said in the guide, once you have killed off his main, there are really no way of losing the game if you just keep him from expanding. ie do whatever followup you want based on what he does Making 3-5 at his main is still not needed. You're wasting 350-500 minerals only something that isn't required. 1-2 is fine if you want to harass his mineral line/pylons at his natural but either way, just by putting creep tumors down and spreading creep in his main you've already done what you needed to do. And even still, you still haven't given a exceptional follow-up. What if he doesnt gg? What if he goes 5-6 gate? You wont have anything other than lings/queens to back up which in turn zlot/sentry/stalker counter that when its all-in especially since they would have started their +1 attack. And by saying "do whatever follow-up you want" isn't valid at all. Just shows that yes you have tried doing something but haven't fully thought it through to the end with it. I uploaded a few replays of what I've been doing now for 5 straight seasons with a complete follow through. Each replay will show you early game gg, mid game gg and late game gg. I think you fail to realize that attacking at 7:30 is probably alot different than doing your build at 7:00. This means to things. A) I will probably kill off alot more infrastructure. (Due to most of it being in the main) B) I will probably have alot more economy This leaves protoss with something like 2 gates and a forge with +1. or maybe an additional robo at tops. Securing the main with 3-4 spines is SUPER cost efficient at this point, and you wont have to wait for roach warren. This way you can secure his main 100% while probably picking off 1 of his gateway/robo/something. Either way, there is no way you can move down that ramp WITH roaches cause of sentry. So you might as well drone instead. (I wasn't at all saying that roaches wouldn't work, ofcourse they would. The main objective was securing their main.) This is also the reason for me not giving the exact followup. If you download the replays you would see exactly how much damage can be done by doing it my way and its much safer overall. Huge differences between the builds. Yours just seems way to flimsy if it fails because you are forcing yourself to make it work or its gg. Whereas with mine you are able to stay ahead and up to par even if it fails or not enough damage is done. Have plenty of replays where nydus doesnt do as much damage as it needed too and yet still ahead and still come out on top with it. Show nested quote +Either way, there is no way you can move down that ramp WITH roaches cause of sentry. So you might as well drone instead. Why do you think I opt for burrow? Only common sense to get tunneling claws once you get burrow if going roaches. Guess roaches are unable to burrow move under FF now. That is a new memo to me.
Yo, the problem you dont see, is that there isn't really a slight chance of losing once the nydus has gone up.
Keeping this in mind, all your statements are irrelevant.
Forcing myself to make it work? forcing what to work?
Have you ever done a nydus and got BEHIND by doing it?
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This can't work very well. [I am a high diamond / low masters toss for reference]
I frequently pylon block on 15 and build a cannon on my opponents natural location, and 1 cannon near the base of his ramp (ala iNcontroL). Zergs often respond to the pylon by taking their third instead of their natural, and bad ones don't pull drones to kill the cannon.
What do we have? We have the Zerg going 2 base all-in with protoss 250, likely 400 (build second cannon at his natural) minerals less then he would in your build. And I never lose to nydus (well, lost once, but I was super cocky and went zealot, sentry, sentry out of my gate and the guy did double nydus worm. Made two at once and I just couldn't handle it, needed that stalker).
All it takes is to get a stalker after 1 sentry, and use 1-2 probes to make sure you have complete vision of your main. Use stalker to chase overlords, pull 5-6 probes and attack the nydus when you see it. Any strong two base timing will destroy him then.
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On June 01 2012 08:13 Eids wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 07:53 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:On June 01 2012 07:40 Eids wrote:On June 01 2012 07:24 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:On June 01 2012 07:15 Eids wrote:On June 01 2012 07:00 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:On June 01 2012 06:50 Eids wrote:On May 30 2012 09:16 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:
And even after the fact, he has made this a complete all-in without doing a follow-up which in turn if it fails he loses. He is stating he has a 80-90% win rate which overall comes down to how lucky he is on his opponent not scouting/seeing this attack and if denied he has no follow up.
. Were you referring to me not having a follow-up? Yes. Making 3-5 spinecrawlers isn't a follow-up. It's just showing you're afraid of a all-in when you could deter that same and make a roach warren with evo chamber for +1 missile and take a 3rd and still be safe because you'll have the larvae to make lings and should have 3-4 queens after doing a nydus. If you want to (which I do) is get Burrow and send the lings out to expansions burrowing them instead of just camping them since a ling is so fragile in that point of the game. A competent protoss will either try to take a expansion, have their stargate with void production going from their natural or 4-6 gate pressure all-in. Pending what you see, roach/ling/queen will prevent and counter those builds especially when you have 3 base to a 1-2 base. Either way you look at it, you're still ahead doing what I said instead of making 3-5 spines. Only need 1 at your expo with doing this. But what do I know, I've been doing this since season 2, did it at MLG's, and still do it to this day on specific maps or vs certain openings. You realize I was making 3-5 spines at HIS main, not at my natural, preventing him to retake his main while scouting around the other possible expansions he could expand to with speedlings. This way there is no way of him taking an expo, and no way of him taking his main. Read before commenting please. Edit. As I said in the guide, once you have killed off his main, there are really no way of losing the game if you just keep him from expanding. ie do whatever followup you want based on what he does Making 3-5 at his main is still not needed. You're wasting 350-500 minerals only something that isn't required. 1-2 is fine if you want to harass his mineral line/pylons at his natural but either way, just by putting creep tumors down and spreading creep in his main you've already done what you needed to do. And even still, you still haven't given a exceptional follow-up. What if he doesnt gg? What if he goes 5-6 gate? You wont have anything other than lings/queens to back up which in turn zlot/sentry/stalker counter that when its all-in especially since they would have started their +1 attack. And by saying "do whatever follow-up you want" isn't valid at all. Just shows that yes you have tried doing something but haven't fully thought it through to the end with it. I uploaded a few replays of what I've been doing now for 5 straight seasons with a complete follow through. Each replay will show you early game gg, mid game gg and late game gg. I think you fail to realize that attacking at 7:30 is probably alot different than doing your build at 7:00. This means to things. A) I will probably kill off alot more infrastructure. (Due to most of it being in the main) B) I will probably have alot more economy This leaves protoss with something like 2 gates and a forge with +1. or maybe an additional robo at tops. Securing the main with 3-4 spines is SUPER cost efficient at this point, and you wont have to wait for roach warren. This way you can secure his main 100% while probably picking off 1 of his gateway/robo/something. Either way, there is no way you can move down that ramp WITH roaches cause of sentry. So you might as well drone instead. (I wasn't at all saying that roaches wouldn't work, ofcourse they would. The main objective was securing their main.) This is also the reason for me not giving the exact followup. If you download the replays you would see exactly how much damage can be done by doing it my way and its much safer overall. Huge differences between the builds. Yours just seems way to flimsy if it fails because you are forcing yourself to make it work or its gg. Whereas with mine you are able to stay ahead and up to par even if it fails or not enough damage is done. Have plenty of replays where nydus doesnt do as much damage as it needed too and yet still ahead and still come out on top with it. Either way, there is no way you can move down that ramp WITH roaches cause of sentry. So you might as well drone instead. Why do you think I opt for burrow? Only common sense to get tunneling claws once you get burrow if going roaches. Guess roaches are unable to burrow move under FF now. That is a new memo to me. Yo, the problem you dont see, is that there isn't really a slight chance of losing once the nydus has gone up. Keeping this in mind, all your statements are irrelevant. Forcing myself to make it work? forcing what to work? Have you ever done a nydus and got BEHIND by doing it?
Have you ever had a nydus be stopped because they actually know how to look for it? By the sound of it, you haven't, which means you're not playing a GM/High masters equivalent MMR to actually theorize/test your build. When you do, you'll see that its flawed and you'll make adjustments.
Again, you're trying to be very defensive of a build that doesnt do what you're saying it does. You wont have 6 queens with lings at 7:30 and if you do the nydus isn't up in their base.
You don't really have a dedicated follow-up other than "do whatever you want" which in turn isn't a valid follow-up. Just states you don't care what you or others do as a follow-up which in turn could make you lose the game pending what the protoss does.
If you obviously dont know what I'm saying when I said forcing it to work, then you obviously haven't thought this build through. Forcing what to work, hmm let's see. What is the main topic of discussion? Nydus? Ok then now that we have that settled.
Overall it just sounds like this is something you either saw someone do and started messing with or just came up out of a whim and started it. Either way you haven't been doing nydus for 5 seasons which in turn makes my point where you're still inexperienced with the build and there is still alot of kinks in it and needs modifications/adjustments.
Like I said, feel free to download those 3 replays which will show 3 different states of the game, early game gg, mid game gg and late game gg.
If you don't care enough or are to ignorant to see the fact that I'm trying to help you then so be it. Don't bother replying back to me in regards to it and it's over with. If you do reply back I'm going to assume that you are wanting help and you will get the help with a build/unit/building composition that I've been doing now for nearly 2 years and have taken games off numerous top 50 GM's and 900-1200 KR Masters players with.
On June 01 2012 08:39 1a2a3aPro wrote:
What do we have? We have the Zerg going 2 base all-in with protoss 250, likely 400 (build second cannon at his natural) minerals less then he would in your build. And I never lose to nydus (well, lost once, but I was super cocky and went zealot, sentry, sentry out of my gate and the guy did double nydus worm. Made two at once and I just couldn't handle it, needed that stalker).
Check the replay and see if it was me. I was testing double nydus at the same time for a few weeks at one point other than building one then having a 2nd one que'ed up in a different location.
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On maps like Cloud Kingdom, assuming you'd place the nydus in the OP's favorite spot, would a queen on the low ground transfusing the upcoming nydus be viable?
So even if a building nydus gets spotted right away by the Protoss player, that low ground queen will keep the nydus alive no matter what. Ofc that queen has to slow-boat all the way across the map unseen, but that should be possible in a FFE situation.
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On June 01 2012 13:28 Hetz wrote:
On maps like Cloud Kingdom, assuming you'd place the nydus in the OP's favorite spot, would a queen on the low ground transfusing the upcoming nydus be viable?
So even if a building nydus gets spotted right away by the Protoss player, that low ground queen will keep the nydus alive no matter what. Ofc that queen has to slow-boat all the way across the map unseen, but that should be possible in a FFE situation.
The criticisms towards this build are not directed to medium diamond or lower. Will it work there? Sure. Quite easily I'd say. Does that make it a solid build? No. Any half decent protoss will not let you slow-move a queen across the map to their low ground without it being spotted and taken out easily.
Please, feel free to use this build on me on the ladder any time. I enjoy easy wins. [I am not trying to be mean to the original poster, but I feel being blunt is necessary as he/she is defending themselves quite heavily. I'm sorry guy, it's just not very solid  . If you want to be aggressive in ZvP, practice Steffano style. It'll improve your mechanics a lot while you're at it :D]
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On June 01 2012 08:39 1a2a3aPro wrote:
This can't work very well. [I am a high diamond / low masters toss for reference]
I frequently pylon block on 15 and build a cannon on my opponents natural location, and 1 cannon near the base of his ramp (ala iNcontroL). Zergs often respond to the pylon by taking their third instead of their natural, and bad ones don't pull drones to kill the cannon.
What do we have? We have the Zerg going 2 base all-in with protoss 250, likely 400 (build second cannon at his natural) minerals less then he would in your build. And I never lose to nydus (well, lost once, but I was super cocky and went zealot, sentry, sentry out of my gate and the guy did double nydus worm. Made two at once and I just couldn't handle it, needed that stalker).
All it takes is to get a stalker after 1 sentry, and use 1-2 probes to make sure you have complete vision of your main. Use stalker to chase overlords, pull 5-6 probes and attack the nydus when you see it. Any strong two base timing will destroy him then.
Pylonblocking delays the timing of natural hatch but doesn't change the timings of the nydus. I will have about 2 or 3(tops) less queens though, but this doesn't really hurt the nydus very much. By building a cannon I will pull 4 workers and kill it, while my lings shortly will arrive from doing the 15 pool ( I wont take the third you are talking about, as there would be a pain transfering queens to the nydus ).
Now If you make more than one cannon, this is obviously a different story.
You are stating: "Use stalker to chase overlords".
Are you talking about overlords out on the map heading towards your base then? In most cases I will probably have atleast 2 of my overlords at secure locations outside your main. You could be referring to chasing the overlords trying to dodge in your main.
In that was the case, you obviously have to do that. It gets harder when you have to pay attention to 3 different places though.
But yeah, you should most definately do that, while patroling probes if you suspect nydusplay.
I do agree, that if nydus never goes up in your main. Zerg will in general always lose.
On June 01 2012 13:28 Hetz wrote:
On maps like Cloud Kingdom, assuming you'd place the nydus in the OP's favorite spot, would a queen on the low ground transfusing the upcoming nydus be viable?
So even if a building nydus gets spotted right away by the Protoss player, that low ground queen will keep the nydus alive no matter what. Ofc that queen has to slow-boat all the way across the map unseen, but that should be possible in a FFE situation.
In higher leagues you would never be able to do this I'm afraid. It also wouldn't help you hiding the fact that you're doing the nydus 
FT.aCt)Sony:
Yes you can have both 6 queens and nydus at 7:30 if there is no pylonblock. If you get blocked, you obviously will have fewer. As mentioned in guide. Once again, read before stating.
Im being defensive towards inaccurate statements. I am fully aware that there will always be possibilites of change in every build.
I'm not going to try to convince you anymore about the whole follow-up thing cause you clearly refuse to understand.
I do understand that you are very proud of the build you have been doing since seson 2, as you have mentioned it in every post. It might be a good build. I have never disagreed with this.
However, dont come here and post stupid inaccurate shit.
As far as the testing of the build, this is also clearly stated in the guide. Around 35-40 + games at 1000-1100 Eu masters starting from the balance update. (As this guide was mainly written due to queen/overlord change. Again stated)
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On June 01 2012 23:07 Eids wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 08:39 1a2a3aPro wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
This can't work very well. [I am a high diamond / low masters toss for reference]
I frequently pylon block on 15 and build a cannon on my opponents natural location, and 1 cannon near the base of his ramp (ala iNcontroL). Zergs often respond to the pylon by taking their third instead of their natural, and bad ones don't pull drones to kill the cannon.
What do we have? We have the Zerg going 2 base all-in with protoss 250, likely 400 (build second cannon at his natural) minerals less then he would in your build. And I never lose to nydus (well, lost once, but I was super cocky and went zealot, sentry, sentry out of my gate and the guy did double nydus worm. Made two at once and I just couldn't handle it, needed that stalker).
All it takes is to get a stalker after 1 sentry, and use 1-2 probes to make sure you have complete vision of your main. Use stalker to chase overlords, pull 5-6 probes and attack the nydus when you see it. Any strong two base timing will destroy him then.
Pylonblocking delays the timing of natural hatch but doesn't change the timings of the nydus. I will have about 2 or 3(tops) less queens though, but this doesn't really hurt the nydus very much. By building a cannon I will pull 4 workers and kill it, while my lings shortly will arrive from doing the 15 pool ( I wont take the third you are talking about, as there would be a pain transfering queens to the nydus ). Now If you make more than one cannon, this is obviously a different story.
I only lay down the second cannon if the first one is allowed to complete. If they pull, you cancel the cannon. The theory is the lost mining time of the 4 workers is greater than the 37 minerals plus delay in your build (though you constantly probe) you lost from the cancel.
On June 01 2012 23:07 Eids wrote:
You are stating: "Use stalker to chase overlords".
Are you talking about overlords out on the map heading towards your base then?
You get the stalker for two reasons:
1) It has greater DPS then a sentry on the building nydus.
2) You force the overlords back to the very edges of your base, reducing the surface area where you can build a worm (on some maps, nearly eliminating it).
3) If he REALLY goes for it, you can slip one around and get the overlord from the other side. Again, map dependant.
My main criticism is that, if the Protoss reacts properly, he cannot lose the game (You are two basing, to be fair, 'cannot lose' is more 'has a significant advantage'). Scouting around your main and getting a few stalkers out is viable against every Zerg all-in like this.
If you'd like, I can ladder you as many times as you'd like. My point about the pylon cannon cannon was that, even -400 minerals, you can stop the two base nydus (with Z taking his expansion at his third) with ease.
Edit: SIlly dangling quote tag.
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Hi,
Everything I'm about to say is based on the replays you provided. I assume you gave us the best replays you had (both in execution and level of opponent).
1. Your level of play, league related
- you are stating that this works "all the way up to high masters";
- the opponents in your replays are mid-masters at best, with the average being high diamond to low masters
2. Scouting
Your opponents really scout poorly. Some of them don't even look for a third, none of them think about scouting the rim of their base. Rarely they take time to place buildings properly so they have enough vision over their base.
If I go FFE vs. zerg (which I basically always do), I really do my best to keep track of what overlords passed over my base and to make sure I see where they are standing around my base. My ranged unit(s) will always be active around the rim of my base, because I cannot afford you to learn what tech choice I make.
3. Follow-up
You are years behind in economy and can never recover from this if your opponent is of roughly equal skill.
4. Short overview of replays:
vs. barbaric -> he did not scout his base. worker count: 37 vs. 21
vs. cbRRRR -> did not scout his base. Worker count: 24 vs. 42
vs. MaesioW -> did not scout base. Worker count: 23. vs 42. After the initial push it took you another 10 minutes to kill a protoss on one base, with you being on 3.
vs. margren -> did not scout base. 27 vs 38 workers.
vs. Sulk -> did not scout his base. Actually, the nydus can be seen on the minimap from the moment you lay it down (despite a large base on taldarim, he pretty much has vision over his entire main). But it takes him a full 10 seconds to spot it and react. 24 vs 43 workers.
What makes it weak is that you have no control over your opponent scouting his base (as opposed to, say, preventing a probe entering your main) and the whole build is based on poor scouting / building placement. This is a vulnerability which will make it work a lot less frequently as you go up in leagues.
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moQbara:
As mentioned, the replays were only made to illustrate the general build and doesn't really represent what I want.
I'm working on a bigger and better replaypack.
And obviously, I have never stated that doing nydusplay would work 100% of the time. I was merely stating that at the moment, I was experiencing e very good ratio in ladder situations. So I would expect it to work even better in lower leagues.
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What happens if they're preparing for a big gateway play?
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Guys i played against this on ladder, walled off my main, and then rolled with a 4 gate pressure i had already set up, not that good of a build, too gimmicky and for little gain in the grand scheme of things.
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On June 02 2012 08:09 PlacidPanda wrote:
Guys i played against this on ladder, walled off my main, and then rolled with a 4 gate pressure i had already set up, not that good of a build, too gimmicky and for little gain in the grand scheme of things.
This is kinda what I figured. Hopefully one day zergs will incorporate nydus worms without basing gimmicky all ins around them.
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On June 02 2012 08:54 kalteras wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 08:09 PlacidPanda wrote:
Guys i played against this on ladder, walled off my main, and then rolled with a 4 gate pressure i had already set up, not that good of a build, too gimmicky and for little gain in the grand scheme of things. This is kinda what I figured. Hopefully one day zergs will incorporate nydus worms without basing gimmicky all ins around them.
Go download the three I uploaded and you'll see just that.
Aside from early game, you'll still retain the nydus and can then start catching him outside of his base to continue harassing or denying his main. Believe in the replay vs Axslav I did just that.
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EPT
