[G] ZvP 2 base nydus vs ffe - Page 2

[B]On May 30 2012 00:56 chebhe wrote:[/]
One potential problem is a probe scouting the fast lair. But most seem to focus excessively on the 3rd nowdays. We will have to see.

On May 30 2012 01:05 chebhe wrote:
Yes its a coinflip. But if you play it well, the coin flips more favorably.

I like it because the nydus comes earlier than typical.

On May 30 2012 00:58 MateShade wrote:


You misunderstand me, the way a stargate build works now is to kill overlords around the base to stop the Zerg scouting you. The void ray will go overlord hunting before it heads out on the map.

This nydus will hit at the exact same time as the fastest 6-7 gates there is from a ffe (might be wrong by a few secs). Either way you should still be able to shut down their first warpin in order to kill their main (=toss on 1 base).

On May 30 2012 01:10 Eids wrote:


He is correct though. The nydus would be startet at 7:10, and you wouldn't have time to even kill 1 out of the 3 overlords. (In my experience atleast)

On May 30 2012 01:17 TiBoxy wrote:


Yeah you are right. 7:30 is when the warpgate research is potentially finished with 4-5 chronos. Ive seen faster warpgates, but I guess that means gateway before nexus and too low eco for 7 gate. And either way, if I was toss I would not 7 gate a 2 base zerg. So I guess that was a dumb suggestion to begin with.

But yes, seems like a strong ladder all-in, and it has potential in other settings as well. I think it is extra strong on maps like taldarim and maybe entombed valley where 2 base zerg is pretty common. Against good protosses its problably not as strong on obvious 3 base maps. But up to mid masters I recon it should have good success rate on all maps if the nydus gets up And I didnt mean to be critical in any way, just interested in your take on obvious weaknesses and possible bo losses, as I felt you didnt go much into that in your guide. But other then that, really nice guide man

On May 30 2012 01:17 MateShade wrote:

If you time your build well then yes I agree, if you get 3 overlords in a good position you should still be able to start the nydus, the void ray would be out though and give some good vision of the main, making it difficult for the nydus to get up (he would have scouted no 3rd well before this and should have good vision of his base by now)

This all depends on quick reactions and good scouting from Protoss yes

On May 30 2012 01:57 NewEyes wrote:
My main problem isn't that the build isnt good or working, Eids it's more of a general thing...

This build is an allin. Which is obviously nothing bad but the main point of every allin is that you put the game into your opponents hands. If he reactes well and does everything the right way he is always going to win. Always. And wiht nydus that is even more the case then with usual allins.

Let's say i play DRG and he Baneling Busts me. Even if i know it is coming i'm propably going to lose as his timing is spot on, he microes perfectly and just has a huge bunch of stuff already. If DRG Nydus allins me i think i can win the game if i assume it is coming and react good because all i have to do is to not let that fucking nydus get up.

That's why i call it a coinflip. Your opponent does not even have to guess there might be a nydus coming but, assuming good scouting he is going to know that something sneaky is up and so can start to scout his main. And if he avoids the nydus the game basically just ends right then.

That's why i don't understand why you don't want to call it a coinflip. It's a good coinflip, no doubt about that, but still it is all about the protoss players reaction.

On May 30 2012 02:15 Eids wrote:


In order to call something a coinflip, I would assume that you are reffering to a win/lossratio of 1. This hasn't been the case so far. That is why I have written this build as a possibility. I wouldn't do it if I felt it was a 50/50.
I do realize that this is an all in. However, I have won alot of games where the protoss sees the nydus but reacts a few seconds too late. I even won alot of games where the protoss kills my first nydus. I build a new nydus outside his natural to draw attention there, before getting up my nydus successfully in his main.
And remember, this build is obviously not written for DRG or any other top top tier zergs.
I agree that doing allins every game isn't the correct solution.

Edit.
There is no such thing as a "good coinflip". It's either a coinflip or not

On May 30 2012 02:22 michaelhasanalias wrote:
I just wanted to say that a couple NA GM/top master cheesers use this as one of their go-to's for ZvP, and another mid-GM player who is normally very macro-oriented also uses this as his go-to ZvP cheese, so it's definitely viable.

The latter's reasoning is that typically protoss doesn't have pylon coverage by the time it hits, and it's easy to deny scouting.

Thanks for posting a guide and this looks very well thought out.

In order to call something a coinflip, I would assume that you are reffering to a win/lossratio of 1. This hasn't been the case so far. That is why I have written this build as a possibility. I wouldn't do it if I felt it was a 50/50.
I do realize that this is an all in. However, I have won alot of games where the protoss sees the nydus but reacts a few seconds too late. I even won alot of games where the protoss kills my first nydus. I build a new nydus outside his natural to draw attention there, before getting up my nydus successfully in his main.
And remember, this build is obviously not written for DRG or any other top top tier zergs.
I agree that doing allins every game isn't the correct solution.

On May 30 2012 02:39 Heh_ wrote:
I agree that this is quite a good allin, but there are telltale signs that the allin is coming. The initial probe scout is capable of doing several things. The first is looking for the third, it's quite obvious that a 2 base allin is coming when the third is missing for an extended period of time. The second is when a probe sneaks into the main before the queens are ready to deny scouting. If the gas is scouted, it's even more obvious some allin is coming. If any of these things are spotted, the protoss player will obviously play more defensive and keep scouting. Some things that the protoss player looks out for: gas at natural, drone count, spine count, queen count and any units that didn't get hidden (roaches and banelings are the biggest tells). You need really good awareness to deny all forms of scouting.

On May 30 2012 01:49 Aehnn wrote:
it's an allin so i don't like it.