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On May 30 2012 02:50 Eids wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 02:39 Heh_ wrote:
I agree that this is quite a good allin, but there are telltale signs that the allin is coming. The initial probe scout is capable of doing several things. The first is looking for the third, it's quite obvious that a 2 base allin is coming when the third is missing for an extended period of time. The second is when a probe sneaks into the main before the queens are ready to deny scouting. If the gas is scouted, it's even more obvious some allin is coming. If any of these things are spotted, the protoss player will obviously play more defensive and keep scouting. Some things that the protoss player looks out for: gas at natural, drone count, spine count, queen count and any units that didn't get hidden (roaches and banelings are the biggest tells). You need really good awareness to deny all forms of scouting. Dont seeing a third base at 6-6:30 isn't necessarily a telltale about zerg going all in. There are a lot of viable options for zerg both delaying third and starting gas a bit earlier. If protoss scouts the first gas geysir, he shouldn't deduce that a super all in is comming. That could just have been for early lingspeed or something. But I do agree that he might be suspicious. The reasoning for this suspicion is that everybody are doing stephano 3 base builds.
No 3rd base is a big red flag, so is the queen count. I feel like there's nothing I should do but build units/cannons at the time I encounter a red flag like no 3rd. If as a Protoss player you've been nydused or proxy hatched at least once, you learn to scout as part of your reaction set to red flag warnings. I guess if a Protoss would want to "counter" this, they should learn the red flags for an aggressive build (no 3rd) and respond by building units and checking their base at around 7 minutes.
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It's a very effective all in, whenever the nydus comes up in their base they only have a few fighting units and the first things to come try to kill it are always the probes lol... it can be modified to fit in some banes for this reason but it's gas.
oh yeah i guess you could load up some banes, wait for his workers to surround the worm, then unload them
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On May 30 2012 02:50 NewEyes wrote:Show nested quote +In order to call something a coinflip, I would assume that you are reffering to a win/lossratio of 1. This hasn't been the case so far. That is why I have written this build as a possibility. I wouldn't do it if I felt it was a 50/50.
I do realize that this is an all in. However, I have won alot of games where the protoss sees the nydus but reacts a few seconds too late. I even won alot of games where the protoss kills my first nydus. I build a new nydus outside his natural to draw attention there, before getting up my nydus successfully in his main.
And remember, this build is obviously not written for DRG or any other top top tier zergs.
I agree that doing allins every game isn't the correct solution. Coinflip has nothing to do with winratio. In Bronze i'd have about 100% winratio with every allin in Grandmaster about 10% even with a good allin. (winrates have no meaning due to Matchmakingsystem) What is meant by a coinflip is that you put it up to your opponent wether you win or lose. If you play a solid macro strategy you can always win the game if you are the better player. If you play a cheesy allin you will sometimes lose no matter how good you are, just because your opponent did a good job at defendng. This is very much the case with your build that's why i call it coinflip like every other allin as wel. Your build fells particularly coinflippy to me as it does not seem to need a lot of skill to avoid it (in terms of micro, timings etc.) but just a good sense of what is going on. Again: I apreeciate your guide and it is definitly well thought out but still not a "solid" strategy.
Well, a coinflip is a situation where both players have approximately equal possiblitiy of winning the game. Hence If I'm matched with opponents that should be of equal "skill", the build would work 50% of the time. So I guess I disagree.
I understand very well what you are trying to convince me of though.
What I was saying originally, was that i didn't experience the build as coinflippy (at the moment), cause my ratio was very much better than 50/50.
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tehemperorer:
You wont see more than 2 queens, tops 3 if you're sending zealot or something. The timing of 7:30 is so fast that it takes protoss off guard. You almost dont have any units, let alone buildings to produce any at that time. But yeah, if every toss checks their base at around 7:00, it would surely be shut down.
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On May 30 2012 03:13 Eids wrote:
tehemperorer:
You wont see more than 2 queens, tops 3 if you're sending zealot or something. The timing of 7:30 is so fast that it takes protoss off guard. You almost dont have any units, let alone buildings to produce any at that time. But yeah, if every toss checks their base at around 7:00, it would surely be shut down.
Cool man thanks it definitely looks like if toss misses the scouting part they are as dead as dead can be. Good job; I know you spent time on the build too so kudos!!!
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On May 30 2012 03:17 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 03:13 Eids wrote:
tehemperorer:
You wont see more than 2 queens, tops 3 if you're sending zealot or something. The timing of 7:30 is so fast that it takes protoss off guard. You almost dont have any units, let alone buildings to produce any at that time. But yeah, if every toss checks their base at around 7:00, it would surely be shut down. Cool man thanks it definitely looks like if toss misses the scouting part they are as dead as dead can be. Good job; I know you spent time on the build too so kudos!!!
Thanks mate. Yeah it really takes 5 seconds of inattention and it's over.
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As offensive nydus is insanely gimmicky and gets even shut down by halfdefent pylon placement, I'd much rather see a guide on an early drop play, as you cannot shut down that without antiair and it's very hard to scout.
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On May 30 2012 04:49 Mahtasooma wrote:
As offensive nydus is insanely gimmicky and gets even shut down by halfdefent pylon placement, I'd much rather see a guide on an early drop play, as you cannot shut down that without antiair and it's very hard to scout.
If anything, early dropplay would be easier to scout. Same tech, overlord speed, takes longer. Misses timings. bleeh, dont think it would work. Also the whole aspect of defending counters are very important.
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On May 30 2012 05:02 Eids wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 04:49 Mahtasooma wrote:
As offensive nydus is insanely gimmicky and gets even shut down by halfdefent pylon placement, I'd much rather see a guide on an early drop play, as you cannot shut down that without antiair and it's very hard to scout. If anything, early dropplay would be easier to scout. Same tech, overlord speed, takes longer. Misses timings. bleeh, dont think it would work. Also the whole aspect of defending counters are very important.
I disagree. Nydus is much easier to stop as all you have to do is kill the nydus worm, let alone a decent toss should have pylons everywhere so nydus's don't just pop out of nowhere. Also it's easier to scout nydus because they just have to see the building if they can get that they know for sure. They will never know for sure if you are getting drop until you put all your overlords in one group next to your army or something.
Nydus with aggression has a very very small window of having any chance of working, it's fine late game because normally there are many things going on and thus it's not as easy to see it, but early game there's not much going on and a toss should always see it when it starts being made.
Also with drops, if you drop your opponents base they are going to get out of those overlords 100% unless he snipes them all in open space with air or something. With nydus again you rely on your opponent not seeing it and praying it finishes.
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blade55555: I already covered topic on number of pylons and lack of vision inbase at 7:30. If you are talking about the nydus network, this will never get scouted, (unless double zealot sacrifice or something)
I also covered my experiences on ratio of getting up the nydus. Going for drop might work against certain builds and wouldnt work to alot. The whole point of hitting at 7:30 is that protoss dont have shit at this time. Drop wont hit until later due to travel distance.
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The key difference though is the research time. While the gas cost is the same, overlord drop requires 130 seconds research time, whereas nydus only requires 70 seconds. Also once that 70 seconds is up, you are unloading in the main, whereas once the overlord research is up, you still require additional time (say, 10-15 seconds minimum) to load, move and finally begin unloading.
That's the trade off you have to make.
I've never seen a rush ling drop at higher level play... does anyone have a replay of this at mid-master or higher? I'd love to check it out and compare.
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Being only in Plat, I can see this working very well against most FFE type of builds. Will try it out.
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On May 30 2012 05:21 b0ub0u wrote:
Being only in Plat, I can see this working very well against most FFE type of builds. Will try it out.
Remember practicing the basics of the build. Getting down gas at the correct time. Building queens, and get your overlords at key locations. you should dodge in abit in the base looking for buildings before putting down nydus. If all that is mastered, you will probably win alot of games, as lower tier players obviously aren't as aware of these things as better players.
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I've been using Nydus in ZvP now since season 2 and I've been able to get it to pop in their base at 7 minutes exactly.
Having to get 6 queens isn't needed at all. Just shows you are over-reacting and burning more minerals. 6 lings or 1 queen? Not really needed when you're trying to do economic damage.
You will have 30+ lings and 2 queens if you want to execute it correctly then following up with taking a 3rd and roach warren/evo chamber +1 missile to ensure you stay up to par with tech/upgrades.
If you want replays, I have over 3500 Nydus ZvP that I can put in a rar file for you with games against top 50 GM's with it working.
10/10 ves trick
11/10 ol
11/10 ol
13 gas
14 pool
stick 3 drones in the gas pull 2 out when you get the 100 make speed (this will show a scouting probe you're not trying to do anything but get fast ling speed for map control)
22 expo
23 gas
Next 100 gas lair
Rally drones from main + nat to expo until 35
35 queen
nydus when you have the gas
And rally lings to nydus
Pull 3 drones off the 2nd gas once you hit 280+ gas
Drop a spine at nat at 44
Ol at 44
Nydus will pop at 7 minutes
Drop another nydus (if needed too) at the opposite end of the opponents base. By doing this you help negate his army/probes if he is going to try and prevent it from popping forcing him to move all the way back giving you 8-10 free seconds of nydus timing.
For your queen at your main stop injecting once you put your nydus down. Send both queens to nydus, drop 2 creep tumors. You will have these 2 queens in case you become unaware of how to kill a pylon by a stargate.
Nydus only really works effectively when you are able to do economic damage such as killing off probes, killing main nexus, denying warp gates from warping in and denying Void ray play.
By hitting at 7 minutes you are ahead of voidrays and 5+ gates. Just deny the pylon/probes/main nexus.
Once you have let your lings run rampant, drop a 3rd, start a roach warren and a evo chamber.
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I thought this was the Sony build.
On another note, nydus worms are the most underused good unit in the game in my opinion. Not only are they strategically beneficial due to the novelty and the pure sneakiness, but they also provide for very entertaining games. ]
Protoss doesnt really have a good answer to nydus because of the sheer amount of units that can be pumped through it so quickly.
I realize this is for ZvP but what does OP think of Nydus ZvT? I dont think ive had a zerg nydus me since season one on ladder, but I feel like it could be pretty good on big maps.
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As you are Nydussing anyways.. I fail to see why you would want ling speed?
This is possible off of one gas without ling speed.
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Eids, in your build's defense:
What people are saying about effective pylon placement denying Nydus is dead wrong; they clearly don't FFE ever.
When I FFE, I do a very crisp set of orders if they drop a fast third in response to FFE, starting at about 4 minutes. I know for a fact that in doing these orders, I have 44 or 52 max food by about 8:30 (I don't waste money on excess pylons, that's the sign of an inefficient build). This means 4 pylons. This also means that depending on the map there are 2 at the natural, and the rest back at home. If the build hits at 7 or 7:30, there is no way that pylon placement alone will save you all of the time from Nydus drops since you are likely to only have 3 pylons, unless you're bad and spend 100 minerals on a pylon you won't use for another minute or two and even then 4 (with at least 1 in the front) is not enough to cover the main on some maps (Shak, Antiga, Korhal, Metal, even Daybreak off the top of my head). Maps that have in base LOS blockers (Metal, Antiga) by default require an additional pylon to cover the main.
It is totally incorrect to say that pylon placement alone can help you defend vs Nydus, and if you are placing pylons around the rim of your main AND scouting, you're doing it wrong. Put the few pylons you have in correct spots to reduce the amount of Artosis pylons you have and just scout in-base fog of war areas at 7:00 if a quick 3rd wasn't placed in response to FFE.
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On May 30 2012 08:49 Mahtasooma wrote:
As you are Nydussing anyways.. I fail to see why you would want ling speed?
This is possible off of one gas without ling speed.
Why would you not want ling speed?
Helps to deny any scouting probes to help prevent the scout of a nydus, enables you to be more mobile once inside his base running down fleeing probes, denying pylons that may hinder doing economic damage, or even with a new batch you can go and deny him from taking his 3rd (which would be his expo which would mean his nat his now his main) after killing off his main.
Maybe you just didn't think of that or were completely oblivious to the fact of that.
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On May 30 2012 08:54 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 08:49 Mahtasooma wrote:
As you are Nydussing anyways.. I fail to see why you would want ling speed?
This is possible off of one gas without ling speed. Why would you not want ling speed? Helps to deny any scouting probes to help prevent the scout of a nydus, enables you to be more mobile once inside his base running down fleeing probes, denying pylons that may hinder doing economic damage, or even with a new batch you can go and deny him from taking his 3rd (which would be his expo which would mean his nat his now his main) after killing off his main. Maybe you just didn't think of that or were completely oblivious to the fact of that.
Point of the build is not to kill probes in the first place, but to shut down his entire production. No matter how many probes he has, if all his gates are unpowered, he won't be able to do much. I'd totally ignore his main actually after the cruicial pylons have been killed and would go for the two pylons in the nat powering the rest, THEN go for the probes. Running probes don't mine much, either, and range 5 queens should take care of that anyway.
The point is the nydus hits even faster AND you only need one gas. this nets you with even more queens and lings at the time the nydus hits. yes, your lings would be slower, but pylons don't move as much and try kiting tons of lings and queens with one sentry or stalker. It's just totally irrelevant for this build as it's an allin anyways.
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Its interesting that this build hits at the 7:30 timing. However:
1. Probe can scout the gas
2. Even if you fake the third, a zealot poke will reveal it, and if he sees no third after the fake, its going to set off alarm bells.
3. An early stalker is going to pin down your overlords.
4. A technique I've used in the past to deal with late scout nydus worms is to ff around it so nothing can get out. A FFE should have 3 sentries out by then, maybe with a stalker, which is enough time to kill it off.
If you're relying on your opponent not noticing your nydus, you may as well proxy hatch them, which hits much earlier, at a time when they dont have pylons spread about their base, and virtually no units to defend.
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EPT
