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Concept
Don't get me wrong, nydusworming is by no means a new strategy.
However, with the new changes made to both queen ground range and overlordspeed, I figured it was time to do this guide.
I would say that the guide is written and would work for players all the way up to high masters, even though it might seem abit too detailed for top tier players.
The build will be focusing on exploiting protoss ffe, or gateway into ffe builds.
The build is ment for you to be able to steal a game of someone, and would work very well in a ladder situation (Players dont know you).
As with all cheesy nydusplay, you will obviouslly NOT be able to win consecutive games against the same player. As you rely on putting down the nydus in their base.
(If they are really looking for your nydus, you will probably not get it down.)
However, the build really punishes sloppy and careless toss players, which there are alot of even in high masters.
The build is no magic. It is based upon a 2 basing zerg, nydusing queens with reinforcing speedlings.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KEO8M.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wVK6g.jpg)
In short terms, the build will look like a normal build.
You will be going standard 15 pool into hatch. However, your first 100 gas goes directly into lair followed by lingspeed and nydus.
By doing this, your nydus will hit around 7:30 - 7:40.
Depending on protoss blocking your hatchery or not, your composition may vary as you will have less queens for the nydus. Your gas timings will still be the same,
hence nydustiming also stays the same.
This is a great timing vs a toss going ffe, and will eventually most certainly lead to a victory.
(*Laughing* - nothing feels better than cheesing a protoss)
So, how does nydusing your ffe-ing protoss win you the game?
While going for ffe, the protoss obviouslly delays teching. They normally focus skyrocketing their economy while building a solid wall at the front.
This makes for a timing before they start producing units, and it's this timing we are trying to exploit.
Some general versions of toss followups:
-If the toss goes for a big gatewaypush, you will hit right before warpgate research finishes,
and you will probably be able to snipe down the pylons powering the gateways before he even
gets one warpin.
He could do his first warpin at around 7:30 when doing super rush builds. These are probably the hardest to kill but, but with proper micro it should atleast make him forfeit the main.
-If the toss goes for early stargate play, he could have about 1 void ray + a pheonix on the way. Queens rape that shit.
-If the toss goes for dt's(nobody really does that), you got lair and an overlord nearby.
-If the toss goes some kind of robo/gatewaymix you would hit way before he could ever build up an army.
-If the toss counters, you got nydus.
My point is, if you get your nydus down, you WILL kill his main, which will eventually lead to victory (bold statement).
How do we proceed?
As mentioned earlier, we are going to use queens and lings for our first attack.
Assuming everything goes according to plan (execution of build), we will be hitting with 6 queens and a dousin (more?) lings at about 7:30 - 7:40.
Remember, queens now have 5 range vs groundunits and are pretty baller. With the amount of transfuses at this point, you shouldn't lose a single queen
while killing his main.
Genreal Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +Stage 1:
-15 Pool
-16 Hatch(prefer 16 over 15 because it is less likely of toss putting down pylon, try to sneak 1 drone out etc.)
-15 queen (number 1 at main, Move it to natural after injecting)
-17 lings
-18 overlord
-18 gas
-17 drone (you are now 18/18)
-18 drone
-19 drone
-20 queen (number 2 at main, Move it to natural after injecting)
Comment: Even though protoss sometimes pylonblock your hatchery, your gas timings will still be the same. You need to build 2 set of lings instead of 1 to kill it off.
As a consequence of this you will have 1-2 less queens for the attack. This doesn't hurt your build too much.
Stage 2:
At this point I will not write food count, as the food count doesn't really matter. Things you should remember: Queen presedence over drones.
Second gas timing. Saving up for lair/nydus
-2 drones
Expo UP -> Rally new drones to natural. Move some drones from main to natural.
-Build first queen at natural
-overlord
-About 10 seconds before your second queen from main pops, build second gas in main
-Once second queen from main pops, build lair in main
-"Fill in some drones"
-Second queen from natural
-You would want to get lingspeed around 5:40 or about 150 gas
-"Fill in some drones"
-Lair done at around 6:10
-Instant nydus network
-5th and 6th queen
-At this point,No more drones. Start pumping lings. You should have about 22-24 drones in total now, mostly in your natural(obviously not more than 16).
-Nydus worm when you have found a good location.
-Reinforce with lings. Remember overlords. I find it easy to get blocked at this point.
Short version:
-15 pool into hatch
-Queen Presedence over drones. Your first gas goes down about 5 seconds after first queen starts. Your second gas should start around 10sec
before lair starts. (Gas timings are obviouslly important)
-lair when second queen from main pops
-Nydus network when lair's done
-Lingsproduction when you got around 22-24 workers
-Nydus worm when nydus network is done
Remember, the exact dronecount doesn't really matter. Try to execute gas- and queentimings correctly, so your lair/nydus is on time.
Overlord/nydusplacement
A big reason why nydus is better now is the new overlord speedbuff. This make scouting around for possible locations easier, and is a crucial factor why the build works so well.
In most cases you can get 3 overlords scouring around the protoss base.
Below, I have included possible overlord and nydusplacement for the current laddermaps.
Red indicates possible nydusplacement. Red with black indicates where I prefer placing my nudus'. Green indicates overlord placement and movement.
Purple indicates imergency nydus.
If your first nydus gets killed you could try putting up one of these to draw their attention to the front of their base. While unloading from this and attacking his front, try putting up another one in his base. You should have enough gas to do this.
NB. Getting your overlords in the correct spot are key to any nydusplay.
Antiga shipyard:
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/nxa1L.jpg) Antiga shipyard is a great map for nydus. As you can see, I prefer the area around the smoky area. In order for protoss to cover this whole area, he needs 3 pylons. 1 inside the smoky field, 1 under and 1 over(see red with black stars). Protoss will probably not do that very often.
Korhal Compound:
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/V0z2v.jpg) As I have vetoed Korhal Compound, I dont have alot of experience nydusing here. However, this is a map with a big main area, and would be great for this build. There are a lot of possibilities. Personally, if I see no pylon in the area around the bottom overlord, I love sacrificing him to the natural. This way I get both vision where I want to put nydus(black stars), in addition to drawing his units and atention away from the nydus
Cloud Kingdom:
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/FTLSP.jpg) Cloud Kingdom is a great map for nydusing. There is alot of room in the top right of his base aswell as the left side. I love putting nydus' closer towards their ramp and close to their lowground buildings, as I find it less likely for them to have highground vision there.(They often forget) Also, you could move your top overlord around to the left side of his main.
Daybreak:
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/D1CW7.jpg) Pretty much same as Cloud Kingdom. Good nydusmap. Again, I prefer the positions closer to ramp towards lowground.
Entombed Valley:
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/UqROI.jpg) Haven't played this at all since it's on my veto list. It seems like a very good nydusmap however. You even got som spots in their natural.
Metalopolis:
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0bsfq.jpg) Again, maps like metalopolis and antiga with fog from smoky-stuff are great for nydusing.
Ohana:
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NVDME.jpg) Alot similar to Korhal Compound. I like the position close to their lowground natural (black stars).
Shakuras Plateu:
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/SZb5o.jpg) On Shakuras, protoss seem to be more alert to nydusplay. Maybe since the main-area is so big. However, with 3 overlords flying around, you should be able to find a spot.
Tal'darim Altar:
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NTk5q.jpg) There is alot of area to the right, but the protoss are normally good at building pylons over there. There is still a good chance of finding a good spot. The area is huge! Be sneaky.
Conclusion: Pretty much all the maps are viable for the build.
Tips and tricks
-Your queens should be loaded first into the nydus network. This way you can instantly transfuse your worm if needed.
-You are trying to hide the fact that you are teching to lair and doing a cheesy build. Transfering drones to your natural will make it look like you have more drones.
Also, You will build up alot of larvae. Try building drones and overlords from the natural hatchery.
(It might look suspicious if you got 10 spare larvae on your natural hatchery)
In addition it might be clever to put down a creep tumor from your natural early on, as it would look kinda strange if you have 3 queens and no creep extending.
-You MUST prevent protoss from scouting your main (obviously). That is way you are transfering your first 2 queens from your main to your natural.
When you get to the point where you got 4-5-6 queens, you shouldn't show him all of them if he scoutes the front. Remember you are trying to represent a non-allin build.
-You should instantly put down 1-2 creep tumors in the protoss base after nydus as you want the creep to extend to his ramp (for followup + speed).
-Depending on your followup, pull guys of gas.
-Dealing with zealot scout. 3 queens will kill it before reaching main. Otherwise I suggest blocking ramp. They will not always sacrifice it though.
Followup
One of two things usually happens after he hears the nydus-roar-thingy.
-He's doing some kind of tech and thinks he can defend his main. He pulls all the probes + 1 or 2 sentries + 1 or 2 zealots.
You will most certainly win this with proper transfuses. He leaves the game.
-He pulls all his probes to the natural sacrificing the main. Prioritize killing pylons powering gates/robo etc first.
Dont try running to his natural as he probably got a sentry. At this point you are still reinforcing with lings. You should stop reinforcing with lings when main is dead, unless you are afraid of him retaking his main.
Start droning up abit while teching. Personally I like building 3-5 spinecrawler in his main nearby ramp/cliff to pick of buildings and possibly a few mineralpatches. However you could go with other alternatives.
From this point you have pretty much won the game. Put lings on possible expansionlocations(important) and play out the game vs 1 base protoss.
Turn one of your overlords into an overseer to snipe observer to prevent high ground vision.
It could be convinient to build 1-2 spines back at your base, even though you got your nydus.
I understand that many might think that nydusing is a coinflip situation. Either protoss sees the nydus and wins, or nydus goes up and zerg wins.
Personally I find that this isn't the case, even in high masters.
Remember, a nydusworm takes 20 seconds to build. Probes alone kill the 200 hp worm in about 8-9 seconds (excluded traveltime).
If you place the nydus in a spot far away from their mineral lines (in full protoss sight. remember instant transfuse), they still need to react in a matter of seconds.
Even if I dont get the first nydus up, I have won alot of games by placing the followup nydus' in different locations.
I would say my winrate vs toss after using only this build is about 80-90% (40-50 games). If executed properly, I think alot of lower tier players would have a blast doing this, and get a bunch og free wins.
However, as with all cheesy builds. The more popular it is, the less efficient it will be.
Replays
+ Show Spoiler +
Eids, eu server
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You know, Nydus must be the only cheesy style against protoss that I have not experimented with at all lol. I definitely agree that builds like yours are stronger with the new overlord speed buff, and I look forward to the newer replays. I will definitely be mixing this into some ladder matches.
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I love this build only because of the style it brings. EDIT:
Just used it and killed the opponents main as he was doing a blink build, he massed cannons then alt tabbed for the rest of the game
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Holy fuck, fantastic! I just got placed into diamond and obviously got raped to death a couple times. This will give me some ease while I work out my zvt and zvz builds first. Thanks mucho!
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This is alot similar to the old ling/hydra 2 base nydus allin. 9-10 min hydra/ling nydus still has the potential to work, I remember doing it on taldarim a couple of months back (first time doing it in about a year) with success. This ling/queen variant sounds much stronger in todays metagame. The only real bo loss would problably be against a 6-7 gate, or maybe stargate/4 gate +1. You problably have some experiences with this if you have done this build 40-50 games?
Personally I would problably abort the allin if scouting no gas at natural. It is before you commit to build the nydus structure and too many queens anyway, and just drone and go for 2 base infestor into standard play or whatever. Infestor would be the most logical backup transition for me at least.
Btw. The spot behind the mineral line on Taldarim is a really nice nydus location. It's not that common for toss to have pylons/structures behind there, and if they do its usually dt/stargate tech that they wish to hide so its a win win to try to check that spot out anyway.
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I love this build. Have got some freewins when people use similar styles.
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Pretty goood guide i have to say.
My only concern as a protoss player is: When i FFE and see no fast 3rd i will expect something cheesy going on like Roach/Bling Bust, fast Mutas or a Nydus. So what happens when i do my normal 2 Zealot Push after FFE to check what you are goint to do? What am i going to see at 6:30-7:00? A bunch of Lings probably and i guess Spoeed will finish around that time as well... So i'd guess Bling Bust or Nydus and if i spread out Pylons enough i m going to have an easy time.
What really bothers me is that you are saying that you want to try and fake a non-allin build. I just dont see that working with no 3rd base at 7min... Even if you kill my zealots with a bunch of lings i will still know something is up because you will have waaay to many zerglings way to fast.
It's just so coinflippy... If i predict right (which is not that hard) and make no mistakes i will win no matter what.
Still a good ladder build though!
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I don't agree with your point about the stargate play, a good player will clear the overlords with a void ray. It's true that if the nydus goes down the main is dead, but there's no way to deny the probe scouting no 3rd so the toss will prepare for nydus especially if they manage to scout your gas (difficult with new queen buff). The build is based on hope obviously but fun nonetheless.
Edit: at the above post, you don't need to guess, you should cut your 2nd zealot and begin sentries and pylons around your main if you scout no 3rd by 5 30, you can deal with both no problem at the same time given timely scouting.
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On May 30 2012 00:04 TiBoxy wrote:
This is alot similar to the old ling/hydra 2 base nydus allin. 9-10 min hydra/ling nydus still has the potential to work, I remember doing it on taldarim a couple of months back (first time doing it in about a year) with success. This ling/queen variant sounds much stronger in todays metagame. The only real bo loss would problably be against a 6-7 gate, or maybe stargate/4 gate +1. You problably have some experiences with this if you have done this build 40-50 games?
Personally I would problably abort the allin if scouting no gas at natural. It is before you commit to build the nydus structure and too many queens anyway, and just drone and go for 2 base infestor into standard play or whatever. Infestor would be the most logical backup transition for me at least.
Btw. The spot behind the mineral line on Taldarim is a really nice nydus location. It's not that common for toss to have pylons/structures behind there, and if they do its usually dt/stargate tech that they wish to hide so its a win win to try to check that spot out anyway.
First of all, I think this queenbuild differs from the one you are talking about by the fact that it is design around hitting a timing where the protoss have alot of economy commited into infrastructure (tech buildings) and very few units. This makes it so much easier to actually kill the protoss.
With the hydra build you would pretty much lose to every robobuild and probably to alot of sentry heavy gateway armies.
As for the gatewaytiming you are talking about. This nydus will hit at the exact same time as the fastest 6-7 gates there is from a ffe (might be wrong by a few secs). Either way you should still be able to shut down their first warpin in order to kill their main (=toss on 1 base). All stargate play is shut down due to queens. I dont recommend aborting build, no. The build should kill the 6-7 gate. You are absolutely right with the tal'darim position. However I find it difficult to get an extra overlord back there in addition to the two others.
On May 30 2012 00:13 NewEyes wrote:
Pretty goood guide i have to say.
My only concern as a protoss player is: When i FFE and see no fast 3rd i will expect something cheesy going on like Roach/Bling Bust, fast Mutas or a Nydus. So what happens when i do my normal 2 Zealot Push after FFE to check what you are goint to do? What am i going to see at 6:30-7:00? A bunch of Lings probably and i guess Spoeed will finish around that time as well... So i'd guess Bling Bust or Nydus and if i spread out Pylons enough i m going to have an easy time.
What really bothers me is that you are saying that you want to try and fake a non-allin build. I just dont see that working with no 3rd base at 7min... Even if you kill my zealots with a bunch of lings i will still know something is up because you will have waaay to many zerglings way to fast.
It's just so coinflippy... If i predict right (which is not that hard) and make no mistakes i will win no matter what.
Still a good ladder build though!
As mentioned, it is supposed to be a cheesy ladderbuild. It is ment to take the protoss off guard.
I am not sure what protoss' are thinking around the 6:30 - 7:00 mark. Surely you are probably going to scout me having no third, you are going to either try scouting my natural with a probe (who is met by 2-3 queens and shut down)
I am not sure that every protoss would actually sacrifice their 2 zealots in that manner you are talking about. You should either way not get into the main. You would scout nearly fully saturatet mineral-natural.
What I have been figured out, is that around 7.30 protoss might have around 4 maybe 5 or 6 pylons. 2 or 3 of these are at the wall, and 1-2 might be around tech. So in order to get vision over the entire base you would have to A) both scout and make GREAT assumptions. B) actually spot the nydus and react in time. This is harder than one might think.
Either way, if played properly, my argument was originally that this wasn't a coinflip.
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On May 30 2012 00:40 MateShade wrote:
I don't agree with your point about the stargate play, a good player will clear the overlords with a void ray. It's true that if the nydus goes down the main is dead, but there's no way to deny the probe scouting no 3rd so the toss will prepare for nydus especially if they manage to scout your gas (difficult with new queen buff). The build is based on hope obviously but fun nonetheless.
Edit: at the above post, you don't need to guess, you should cut your 2nd zealot and begin sentries and pylons around your main if you scout no 3rd by 5 30, you can deal with both no problem at the same time given timely scouting.
I have tried to make the point that it isn't as black and white as many might think. Even though you spot one overlord and kills it, (The timings are really tight for you to even kill it) the game isn't lost. Remember, the nydus only needs to stay up for a fraction of a second with instant transfuses ready.
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Fake the 3rd. He will not scout twice for it. This will help you alot.
Deal with the 2 zealot push with 10 speedlings. Make sure to scout them coming well in advance, let him KNOW you scouted him, and then attack when they are ALMOST to your 3rd (but not in range of vision of the creep).
This doesnt look too suspicious and your nydus is almost done...
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On May 30 2012 00:43 Eids wrote:
As mentioned, it is supposed to be a cheesy ladderbuild. It is ment to take the protoss off guard.
I am not sure what protoss' are thinking around the 6:30 - 7:00 mark. Surely you are probably going to scout me having no third, you are going to either try scouting my natural with a probe (who is met by 2-3 queens and shut down)
I am not sure that every protoss would actually sacrifice their 2 zealots in that manner you are talking about. You should either way not get into the main. You would scout nearly fully saturatet mineral-natural.
What I have been figured out, is that around 7.30 protoss might have around 4 maybe 5 or 6 pylons. 2 or 3 of these are at the wall, and 1-2 might be around tech. So in order to get vision over the entire base you would have to A) both scout and make GREAT assumptions. B) actually spot the nydus and react in time. This is harder than one might think.
Either way, if played properly, my argument was originally that this wasn't a coinflip.
If protoss opens stargate its a coinflip. If Protoss opens anything else and no 3rd is scouted, extra pylons will be built
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On May 30 2012 00:47 chebhe wrote:
Fake the 3rd. He will not scout twice for it. This will help you alot.
Might be a good idea, maybe delaying 2 of the queens abit and just canceling hatch before its done. Timings could be changed though and would need to look into it. However, I generally dont have a problem putting down the nydus. (Protoss would certainly get better at scouting base if more people nydus)
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I'm not sure how often Protoss will rescout the 3rd after having scouted it, because I havent played much in a few months.
If this is common then your way may be worth it. But otherwise I would just cancel it right when the probe leaves.
I can't say it's very practical since you can scout with 2 zealots at a reasonable timing.
Rescouting with the probe seems redundant when you can watch for Nydus closely and not have to.
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On May 30 2012 00:47 chebhe wrote:
Fake the 3rd. He will not scout twice for it. This will help you alot.
Deal with the 2 zealot push with 10 speedlings. Make sure to scout them coming well in advance, let him KNOW you scouted him, and then attack when they are ALMOST to your 3rd (but not in range of vision of the creep).
This doesnt look too suspicious and your nydus is almost done...
If 10 lings are built and the probe doesn't get to see the hatch finish they will absolutely check it again. This is a huge sign for a bane bust, this build is better off as a 2 base.
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Baneling Bust.
I havent kept up on the PvZ metagame so I'll take your word for it.
Then the OPs fix of going 4 queen instead of 6 may be better. I think that will work fine as long as you get the nydus down. Infact you may just let the 3rd finish. It will give some extra larva. You do get sort of low on larva after bringing all your queens.
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On May 30 2012 00:49 MateShade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 00:43 Eids wrote:
As mentioned, it is supposed to be a cheesy ladderbuild. It is ment to take the protoss off guard.
I am not sure what protoss' are thinking around the 6:30 - 7:00 mark. Surely you are probably going to scout me having no third, you are going to either try scouting my natural with a probe (who is met by 2-3 queens and shut down)
I am not sure that every protoss would actually sacrifice their 2 zealots in that manner you are talking about. You should either way not get into the main. You would scout nearly fully saturatet mineral-natural.
What I have been figured out, is that around 7.30 protoss might have around 4 maybe 5 or 6 pylons. 2 or 3 of these are at the wall, and 1-2 might be around tech. So in order to get vision over the entire base you would have to A) both scout and make GREAT assumptions. B) actually spot the nydus and react in time. This is harder than one might think.
Either way, if played properly, my argument was originally that this wasn't a coinflip. If protoss opens stargate its a coinflip. If Protoss opens anything else and no 3rd is scouted, extra pylons will be built
As mentioned, I disagree.
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On May 30 2012 00:46 Eids wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 00:40 MateShade wrote:
I don't agree with your point about the stargate play, a good player will clear the overlords with a void ray. It's true that if the nydus goes down the main is dead, but there's no way to deny the probe scouting no 3rd so the toss will prepare for nydus especially if they manage to scout your gas (difficult with new queen buff). The build is based on hope obviously but fun nonetheless.
Edit: at the above post, you don't need to guess, you should cut your 2nd zealot and begin sentries and pylons around your main if you scout no 3rd by 5 30, you can deal with both no problem at the same time given timely scouting. I have tried to make the point that it isn't as black and white as many might think. Even though you spot one overlord and kills it, (The timings are really tight for you to even kill it) the game isn't lost. Remember, the nydus only needs to stay up for a fraction of a second with instant transfuses ready.
You'll find most of the modern stargate builds are designed to simply put the Zerg in the dark, the void ray will go overlord hunting and If they miss an overlord sure but that's a coinflip no?
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Stargate will not be completed with a unit built and flying over your base in time to scout this... Hide your overlord and you will be fine. This nydus comes much earlier than others since it relies on speedlings which are not costly in gas, and a fast tech.
One potential problem is a probe scouting the fast lair. But most seem to focus excessively on the 3rd nowdays. We will have to see.
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On May 30 2012 00:56 chebhe wrote:
Stargate will not be completed with a unit built and flying over your base in time to scout this... Hide your overlord and you will be fine.
You misunderstand me, the way a stargate build works now is to kill overlords around the base to stop the Zerg scouting you. The void ray will go overlord hunting before it heads out on the map.
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Then hide the overlord and morph it into an overseer.
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[B]On May 30 2012 00:56 chebhe wrote:[/]
One potential problem is a probe scouting the fast lair. But most seem to focus excessively on the 3rd nowdays. We will have to see.
This actually isn't as big a problem as you might think, a fast lair will usually hint at 2 base muta play.
Though as I said, Protoss players will scout their main actively at any of these signs and thus making this a coin flip. Of course it will work if they don't scout or know how to prepare for possibilities.
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Yes its a coinflip. But if you play it well, the coin flips more favorably.
I like it because the nydus comes earlier than typical.
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On May 30 2012 01:03 MateShade wrote:Show nested quote +[B]On May 30 2012 00:56 chebhe wrote:[/]
One potential problem is a probe scouting the fast lair. But most seem to focus excessively on the 3rd nowdays. We will have to see. This actually isn't as big a problem as you might think, a fast lair will usually hint at 2 base muta play. Though as I said, Protoss players will scout their main actively at any of these signs and thus making this a coin flip. Of course it will work if they don't scout or know how to prepare for possibilities.
If a (good) Protoss suspects Nydus play of any sort after he has FFE'd, my/the best response is to patrol probes around the outskirts of the main. Really easy to shut down 2 base Nydus by doing that, and the only really huge main that I think would be an issue is actually Ohana. It's a good build and will shut down ultra greedy (or lazy  ) Protoss players on ladder but I'm not sure if I would bank on this build in a tourney
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On May 30 2012 01:05 chebhe wrote:
Yes its a coinflip. But if you play it well, the coin flips more favorably.
I like it because the nydus comes earlier than typical.
Of course I never disagreed with this, the op said that he believed differently.
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On May 30 2012 00:58 MateShade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 00:56 chebhe wrote:
Stargate will not be completed with a unit built and flying over your base in time to scout this... Hide your overlord and you will be fine. You misunderstand me, the way a stargate build works now is to kill overlords around the base to stop the Zerg scouting you. The void ray will go overlord hunting before it heads out on the map.
He is correct though. The nydus would be startet at 7:10, and you wouldn't have time to even kill 1 out of the 3 overlords. (In my experience atleast)
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This nydus will hit at the exact same time as the fastest 6-7 gates there is from a ffe (might be wrong by a few secs). Either way you should still be able to shut down their first warpin in order to kill their main (=toss on 1 base).
Yeah you are right. 7:30 is when the warpgate research is potentially finished with 4-5 chronos. Ive seen faster warpgates, but I guess that means gateway before nexus and too low eco for 7 gate. And either way, if I was toss I would not 7 gate a 2 base zerg. So I guess that was a dumb suggestion to begin with.
But yes, seems like a strong ladder all-in, and it has potential in other settings as well. I think it is extra strong on maps like taldarim and maybe entombed valley where 2 base zerg is pretty common. Against good protosses its problably not as strong on obvious 3 base maps. But up to mid masters I recon it should have good success rate on all maps if the nydus gets up And I didnt mean to be critical in any way, just interested in your take on obvious weaknesses and possible bo losses, as I felt you didnt go much into that in your guide. But other then that, really nice guide man
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On May 30 2012 01:10 Eids wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 00:58 MateShade wrote:On May 30 2012 00:56 chebhe wrote:
Stargate will not be completed with a unit built and flying over your base in time to scout this... Hide your overlord and you will be fine. You misunderstand me, the way a stargate build works now is to kill overlords around the base to stop the Zerg scouting you. The void ray will go overlord hunting before it heads out on the map. He is correct though. The nydus would be startet at 7:10, and you wouldn't have time to even kill 1 out of the 3 overlords. (In my experience atleast)
If you time your build well then yes I agree, if you get 3 overlords in a good position you should still be able to start the nydus, the void ray would be out though and give some good vision of the main, making it difficult for the nydus to get up (he would have scouted no 3rd well before this and should have good vision of his base by now)
This all depends on quick reactions and good scouting from Protoss yes
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On May 30 2012 01:17 TiBoxy wrote:Show nested quote +This nydus will hit at the exact same time as the fastest 6-7 gates there is from a ffe (might be wrong by a few secs). Either way you should still be able to shut down their first warpin in order to kill their main (=toss on 1 base). Yeah you are right. 7:30 is when the warpgate research is potentially finished with 4-5 chronos. Ive seen faster warpgates, but I guess that means gateway before nexus and too low eco for 7 gate. And either way, if I was toss I would not 7 gate a 2 base zerg. So I guess that was a dumb suggestion to begin with. But yes, seems like a strong ladder all-in, and it has potential in other settings as well. I think it is extra strong on maps like taldarim and maybe entombed valley where 2 base zerg is pretty common. Against good protosses its problably not as strong on obvious 3 base maps. But up to mid masters I recon it should have good success rate on all maps if the nydus gets up And I didnt mean to be critical in any way, just interested in your take on obvious weaknesses and possible bo losses, as I felt you didnt go much into that in your guide. But other then that, really nice guide man
Thanks mate. Personally there isn't a map I had less than 60-70% winrate on. (Currently I am 1050 points master with some bonuspool)
I find metalopolis and antiga with the smoky area to be the best due to the fact that toss need 4 pylons or other structurs just to get vision in that general area. Other maps working just as fine.
As to obvious weaknesses, I wouldn't say that there are any "obvious" ones. Clearly if your protoss player in the recent past has been nydused alot, he's gonna do better against it. This is why this build probably are going to lose some of its effect in the future.
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On May 30 2012 01:17 MateShade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 01:10 Eids wrote:On May 30 2012 00:58 MateShade wrote:On May 30 2012 00:56 chebhe wrote:
Stargate will not be completed with a unit built and flying over your base in time to scout this... Hide your overlord and you will be fine. You misunderstand me, the way a stargate build works now is to kill overlords around the base to stop the Zerg scouting you. The void ray will go overlord hunting before it heads out on the map. He is correct though. The nydus would be startet at 7:10, and you wouldn't have time to even kill 1 out of the 3 overlords. (In my experience atleast) If you time your build well then yes I agree, if you get 3 overlords in a good position you should still be able to start the nydus, the void ray would be out though and give some good vision of the main, making it difficult for the nydus to get up (he would have scouted no 3rd well before this and should have good vision of his base by now) This all depends on quick reactions and good scouting from Protoss yes
It seems you are a protoss who has been cheesed alot by zerg players, and are really carefull with these builds.
In my experience, this is not the case of other protoss players, as I have tried stating.
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it's an allin so i don't like it.
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My main problem isn't that the build isnt good or working, Eids it's more of a general thing...
This build is an allin. Which is obviously nothing bad but the main point of every allin is that you put the game into your opponents hands. If he reactes well and does everything the right way he is always going to win. Always. And wiht nydus that is even more the case then with usual allins.
Let's say i play DRG and he Baneling Busts me. Even if i know it is coming i'm propably going to lose as his timing is spot on, he microes perfectly and just has a huge bunch of stuff already. If DRG Nydus allins me i think i can win the game if i assume it is coming and react good because all i have to do is to not let that fucking nydus get up.
That's why i call it a coinflip. Your opponent does not even have to guess there might be a nydus coming but, assuming good scouting he is going to know that something sneaky is up and so can start to scout his main. And if he avoids the nydus the game basically just ends right then.
That's why i don't understand why you don't want to call it a coinflip. It's a good coinflip, no doubt about that, but still it is all about the protoss players reaction.
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On May 30 2012 01:57 NewEyes wrote:
My main problem isn't that the build isnt good or working, Eids it's more of a general thing...
This build is an allin. Which is obviously nothing bad but the main point of every allin is that you put the game into your opponents hands. If he reactes well and does everything the right way he is always going to win. Always. And wiht nydus that is even more the case then with usual allins.
Let's say i play DRG and he Baneling Busts me. Even if i know it is coming i'm propably going to lose as his timing is spot on, he microes perfectly and just has a huge bunch of stuff already. If DRG Nydus allins me i think i can win the game if i assume it is coming and react good because all i have to do is to not let that fucking nydus get up.
That's why i call it a coinflip. Your opponent does not even have to guess there might be a nydus coming but, assuming good scouting he is going to know that something sneaky is up and so can start to scout his main. And if he avoids the nydus the game basically just ends right then.
That's why i don't understand why you don't want to call it a coinflip. It's a good coinflip, no doubt about that, but still it is all about the protoss players reaction.
In order to call something a coinflip, I would assume that you are reffering to a win/lossratio of 1. This hasn't been the case so far. That is why I have written this build as a possibility. I wouldn't do it if I felt it was a 50/50.
I do realize that this is an all in. However, I have won alot of games where the protoss sees the nydus but reacts a few seconds too late. I even won alot of games where the protoss kills my first nydus. I build a new nydus outside his natural to draw attention there, before getting up my nydus successfully in his main.
And remember, this build is obviously not written for DRG or any other top top tier zergs.
I agree that doing allins every game isn't the correct solution.
Edit.
There is no such thing as a "good coinflip". It's either a coinflip or not
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I just wanted to say that a couple NA GM/top master cheesers use this as one of their go-to's for ZvP, and another mid-GM player who is normally very macro-oriented also uses this as his go-to ZvP cheese, so it's definitely viable.
The latter's reasoning is that typically protoss doesn't have pylon coverage by the time it hits, and it's easy to deny scouting.
Thanks for posting a guide and this looks very well thought out.
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On May 30 2012 02:15 Eids wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 01:57 NewEyes wrote:
My main problem isn't that the build isnt good or working, Eids it's more of a general thing...
This build is an allin. Which is obviously nothing bad but the main point of every allin is that you put the game into your opponents hands. If he reactes well and does everything the right way he is always going to win. Always. And wiht nydus that is even more the case then with usual allins.
Let's say i play DRG and he Baneling Busts me. Even if i know it is coming i'm propably going to lose as his timing is spot on, he microes perfectly and just has a huge bunch of stuff already. If DRG Nydus allins me i think i can win the game if i assume it is coming and react good because all i have to do is to not let that fucking nydus get up.
That's why i call it a coinflip. Your opponent does not even have to guess there might be a nydus coming but, assuming good scouting he is going to know that something sneaky is up and so can start to scout his main. And if he avoids the nydus the game basically just ends right then.
That's why i don't understand why you don't want to call it a coinflip. It's a good coinflip, no doubt about that, but still it is all about the protoss players reaction. In order to call something a coinflip, I would assume that you are reffering to a win/lossratio of 1. This hasn't been the case so far. That is why I have written this build as a possibility. I wouldn't do it if I felt it was a 50/50. I do realize that this is an all in. However, I have won alot of games where the protoss sees the nydus but reacts a few seconds too late. I even won alot of games where the protoss kills my first nydus. I build a new nydus outside his natural to draw attention there, before getting up my nydus successfully in his main. And remember, this build is obviously not written for DRG or any other top top tier zergs. I agree that doing allins every game isn't the correct solution. Edit. There is no such thing as a "good coinflip". It's either a coinflip or not
I don't think you understand what coinflip means in the Starcraft community, I really don't understand why you'd think it would mean a 50% w/l ratio.
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On May 30 2012 02:22 michaelhasanalias wrote:
I just wanted to say that a couple NA GM/top master cheesers use this as one of their go-to's for ZvP, and another mid-GM player who is normally very macro-oriented also uses this as his go-to ZvP cheese, so it's definitely viable.
The latter's reasoning is that typically protoss doesn't have pylon coverage by the time it hits, and it's easy to deny scouting.
Thanks for posting a guide and this looks very well thought out.
Thank you good sir. I agree with the reasoning.
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I agree that this is quite a good allin, but there are telltale signs that the allin is coming. The initial probe scout is capable of doing several things. The first is looking for the third, it's quite obvious that a 2 base allin is coming when the third is missing for an extended period of time. The second is when a probe sneaks into the main before the queens are ready to deny scouting. If the gas is scouted, it's even more obvious some allin is coming. If any of these things are spotted, the protoss player will obviously play more defensive and keep scouting. Some things that the protoss player looks out for: gas at natural, drone count, spine count, queen count and any units that didn't get hidden (roaches and banelings are the biggest tells). You need really good awareness to deny all forms of scouting.
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In order to call something a coinflip, I would assume that you are reffering to a win/lossratio of 1. This hasn't been the case so far. That is why I have written this build as a possibility. I wouldn't do it if I felt it was a 50/50.
I do realize that this is an all in. However, I have won alot of games where the protoss sees the nydus but reacts a few seconds too late. I even won alot of games where the protoss kills my first nydus. I build a new nydus outside his natural to draw attention there, before getting up my nydus successfully in his main.
And remember, this build is obviously not written for DRG or any other top top tier zergs.
I agree that doing allins every game isn't the correct solution.
Coinflip has nothing to do with winratio. In Bronze i'd have about 100% winratio with every allin in Grandmaster about 10% even with a good allin. (winrates have no meaning due to Matchmakingsystem) What is meant by a coinflip is that you put it up to your opponent wether you win or lose. If you play a solid macro strategy you can always win the game if you are the better player. If you play a cheesy allin you will sometimes lose no matter how good you are, just because your opponent did a good job at defendng. This is very much the case with your build that's why i call it coinflip like every other allin as wel. Your build fells particularly coinflippy to me as it does not seem to need a lot of skill to avoid it (in terms of micro, timings etc.) but just a good sense of what is going on.
Again: I apreeciate your guide and it is definitly well thought out but still not a "solid" strategy.
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On May 30 2012 02:39 Heh_ wrote:
I agree that this is quite a good allin, but there are telltale signs that the allin is coming. The initial probe scout is capable of doing several things. The first is looking for the third, it's quite obvious that a 2 base allin is coming when the third is missing for an extended period of time. The second is when a probe sneaks into the main before the queens are ready to deny scouting. If the gas is scouted, it's even more obvious some allin is coming. If any of these things are spotted, the protoss player will obviously play more defensive and keep scouting. Some things that the protoss player looks out for: gas at natural, drone count, spine count, queen count and any units that didn't get hidden (roaches and banelings are the biggest tells). You need really good awareness to deny all forms of scouting.
Dont seeing a third base at 6-6:30 isn't necessarily a telltale about zerg going all in. There are a lot of viable options for zerg both delaying third and starting gas a bit earlier. If protoss scouts the first gas geysir, he shouldn't deduce that a super all in is comming. That could just have been for early lingspeed or something. But I do agree that he might be suspicious. The reasoning for this suspicion is that everybody are doing stephano 3 base builds.
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On May 30 2012 01:49 Aehnn wrote:
it's an allin so i don't like it.
After many long hours of starcraft, I find it's nice to end the day with some cheesy allins.
My preference. I like keeping my points on par or slightly below skill level.. Gets rid of any ladder anxiety for losing.
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On May 30 2012 02:50 Eids wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 02:39 Heh_ wrote:
I agree that this is quite a good allin, but there are telltale signs that the allin is coming. The initial probe scout is capable of doing several things. The first is looking for the third, it's quite obvious that a 2 base allin is coming when the third is missing for an extended period of time. The second is when a probe sneaks into the main before the queens are ready to deny scouting. If the gas is scouted, it's even more obvious some allin is coming. If any of these things are spotted, the protoss player will obviously play more defensive and keep scouting. Some things that the protoss player looks out for: gas at natural, drone count, spine count, queen count and any units that didn't get hidden (roaches and banelings are the biggest tells). You need really good awareness to deny all forms of scouting. Dont seeing a third base at 6-6:30 isn't necessarily a telltale about zerg going all in. There are a lot of viable options for zerg both delaying third and starting gas a bit earlier. If protoss scouts the first gas geysir, he shouldn't deduce that a super all in is comming. That could just have been for early lingspeed or something. But I do agree that he might be suspicious. The reasoning for this suspicion is that everybody are doing stephano 3 base builds.
No 3rd base is a big red flag, so is the queen count. I feel like there's nothing I should do but build units/cannons at the time I encounter a red flag like no 3rd. If as a Protoss player you've been nydused or proxy hatched at least once, you learn to scout as part of your reaction set to red flag warnings. I guess if a Protoss would want to "counter" this, they should learn the red flags for an aggressive build (no 3rd) and respond by building units and checking their base at around 7 minutes.
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It's a very effective all in, whenever the nydus comes up in their base they only have a few fighting units and the first things to come try to kill it are always the probes lol... it can be modified to fit in some banes for this reason but it's gas.
oh yeah i guess you could load up some banes, wait for his workers to surround the worm, then unload them
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On May 30 2012 02:50 NewEyes wrote:Show nested quote +In order to call something a coinflip, I would assume that you are reffering to a win/lossratio of 1. This hasn't been the case so far. That is why I have written this build as a possibility. I wouldn't do it if I felt it was a 50/50.
I do realize that this is an all in. However, I have won alot of games where the protoss sees the nydus but reacts a few seconds too late. I even won alot of games where the protoss kills my first nydus. I build a new nydus outside his natural to draw attention there, before getting up my nydus successfully in his main.
And remember, this build is obviously not written for DRG or any other top top tier zergs.
I agree that doing allins every game isn't the correct solution. Coinflip has nothing to do with winratio. In Bronze i'd have about 100% winratio with every allin in Grandmaster about 10% even with a good allin. (winrates have no meaning due to Matchmakingsystem) What is meant by a coinflip is that you put it up to your opponent wether you win or lose. If you play a solid macro strategy you can always win the game if you are the better player. If you play a cheesy allin you will sometimes lose no matter how good you are, just because your opponent did a good job at defendng. This is very much the case with your build that's why i call it coinflip like every other allin as wel. Your build fells particularly coinflippy to me as it does not seem to need a lot of skill to avoid it (in terms of micro, timings etc.) but just a good sense of what is going on. Again: I apreeciate your guide and it is definitly well thought out but still not a "solid" strategy.
Well, a coinflip is a situation where both players have approximately equal possiblitiy of winning the game. Hence If I'm matched with opponents that should be of equal "skill", the build would work 50% of the time. So I guess I disagree.
I understand very well what you are trying to convince me of though.
What I was saying originally, was that i didn't experience the build as coinflippy (at the moment), cause my ratio was very much better than 50/50.
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tehemperorer:
You wont see more than 2 queens, tops 3 if you're sending zealot or something. The timing of 7:30 is so fast that it takes protoss off guard. You almost dont have any units, let alone buildings to produce any at that time. But yeah, if every toss checks their base at around 7:00, it would surely be shut down.
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On May 30 2012 03:13 Eids wrote:
tehemperorer:
You wont see more than 2 queens, tops 3 if you're sending zealot or something. The timing of 7:30 is so fast that it takes protoss off guard. You almost dont have any units, let alone buildings to produce any at that time. But yeah, if every toss checks their base at around 7:00, it would surely be shut down.
Cool man thanks it definitely looks like if toss misses the scouting part they are as dead as dead can be. Good job; I know you spent time on the build too so kudos!!!
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On May 30 2012 03:17 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 03:13 Eids wrote:
tehemperorer:
You wont see more than 2 queens, tops 3 if you're sending zealot or something. The timing of 7:30 is so fast that it takes protoss off guard. You almost dont have any units, let alone buildings to produce any at that time. But yeah, if every toss checks their base at around 7:00, it would surely be shut down. Cool man thanks it definitely looks like if toss misses the scouting part they are as dead as dead can be. Good job; I know you spent time on the build too so kudos!!!
Thanks mate. Yeah it really takes 5 seconds of inattention and it's over.
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As offensive nydus is insanely gimmicky and gets even shut down by halfdefent pylon placement, I'd much rather see a guide on an early drop play, as you cannot shut down that without antiair and it's very hard to scout.
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On May 30 2012 04:49 Mahtasooma wrote:
As offensive nydus is insanely gimmicky and gets even shut down by halfdefent pylon placement, I'd much rather see a guide on an early drop play, as you cannot shut down that without antiair and it's very hard to scout.
If anything, early dropplay would be easier to scout. Same tech, overlord speed, takes longer. Misses timings. bleeh, dont think it would work. Also the whole aspect of defending counters are very important.
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On May 30 2012 05:02 Eids wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 04:49 Mahtasooma wrote:
As offensive nydus is insanely gimmicky and gets even shut down by halfdefent pylon placement, I'd much rather see a guide on an early drop play, as you cannot shut down that without antiair and it's very hard to scout. If anything, early dropplay would be easier to scout. Same tech, overlord speed, takes longer. Misses timings. bleeh, dont think it would work. Also the whole aspect of defending counters are very important.
I disagree. Nydus is much easier to stop as all you have to do is kill the nydus worm, let alone a decent toss should have pylons everywhere so nydus's don't just pop out of nowhere. Also it's easier to scout nydus because they just have to see the building if they can get that they know for sure. They will never know for sure if you are getting drop until you put all your overlords in one group next to your army or something.
Nydus with aggression has a very very small window of having any chance of working, it's fine late game because normally there are many things going on and thus it's not as easy to see it, but early game there's not much going on and a toss should always see it when it starts being made.
Also with drops, if you drop your opponents base they are going to get out of those overlords 100% unless he snipes them all in open space with air or something. With nydus again you rely on your opponent not seeing it and praying it finishes.
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blade55555: I already covered topic on number of pylons and lack of vision inbase at 7:30. If you are talking about the nydus network, this will never get scouted, (unless double zealot sacrifice or something)
I also covered my experiences on ratio of getting up the nydus. Going for drop might work against certain builds and wouldnt work to alot. The whole point of hitting at 7:30 is that protoss dont have shit at this time. Drop wont hit until later due to travel distance.
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The key difference though is the research time. While the gas cost is the same, overlord drop requires 130 seconds research time, whereas nydus only requires 70 seconds. Also once that 70 seconds is up, you are unloading in the main, whereas once the overlord research is up, you still require additional time (say, 10-15 seconds minimum) to load, move and finally begin unloading.
That's the trade off you have to make.
I've never seen a rush ling drop at higher level play... does anyone have a replay of this at mid-master or higher? I'd love to check it out and compare.
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Being only in Plat, I can see this working very well against most FFE type of builds. Will try it out.
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On May 30 2012 05:21 b0ub0u wrote:
Being only in Plat, I can see this working very well against most FFE type of builds. Will try it out.
Remember practicing the basics of the build. Getting down gas at the correct time. Building queens, and get your overlords at key locations. you should dodge in abit in the base looking for buildings before putting down nydus. If all that is mastered, you will probably win alot of games, as lower tier players obviously aren't as aware of these things as better players.
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I've been using Nydus in ZvP now since season 2 and I've been able to get it to pop in their base at 7 minutes exactly.
Having to get 6 queens isn't needed at all. Just shows you are over-reacting and burning more minerals. 6 lings or 1 queen? Not really needed when you're trying to do economic damage.
You will have 30+ lings and 2 queens if you want to execute it correctly then following up with taking a 3rd and roach warren/evo chamber +1 missile to ensure you stay up to par with tech/upgrades.
If you want replays, I have over 3500 Nydus ZvP that I can put in a rar file for you with games against top 50 GM's with it working.
10/10 ves trick
11/10 ol
11/10 ol
13 gas
14 pool
stick 3 drones in the gas pull 2 out when you get the 100 make speed (this will show a scouting probe you're not trying to do anything but get fast ling speed for map control)
22 expo
23 gas
Next 100 gas lair
Rally drones from main + nat to expo until 35
35 queen
nydus when you have the gas
And rally lings to nydus
Pull 3 drones off the 2nd gas once you hit 280+ gas
Drop a spine at nat at 44
Ol at 44
Nydus will pop at 7 minutes
Drop another nydus (if needed too) at the opposite end of the opponents base. By doing this you help negate his army/probes if he is going to try and prevent it from popping forcing him to move all the way back giving you 8-10 free seconds of nydus timing.
For your queen at your main stop injecting once you put your nydus down. Send both queens to nydus, drop 2 creep tumors. You will have these 2 queens in case you become unaware of how to kill a pylon by a stargate.
Nydus only really works effectively when you are able to do economic damage such as killing off probes, killing main nexus, denying warp gates from warping in and denying Void ray play.
By hitting at 7 minutes you are ahead of voidrays and 5+ gates. Just deny the pylon/probes/main nexus.
Once you have let your lings run rampant, drop a 3rd, start a roach warren and a evo chamber.
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I thought this was the Sony build.
On another note, nydus worms are the most underused good unit in the game in my opinion. Not only are they strategically beneficial due to the novelty and the pure sneakiness, but they also provide for very entertaining games. ]
Protoss doesnt really have a good answer to nydus because of the sheer amount of units that can be pumped through it so quickly.
I realize this is for ZvP but what does OP think of Nydus ZvT? I dont think ive had a zerg nydus me since season one on ladder, but I feel like it could be pretty good on big maps.
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As you are Nydussing anyways.. I fail to see why you would want ling speed?
This is possible off of one gas without ling speed.
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Eids, in your build's defense:
What people are saying about effective pylon placement denying Nydus is dead wrong; they clearly don't FFE ever.
When I FFE, I do a very crisp set of orders if they drop a fast third in response to FFE, starting at about 4 minutes. I know for a fact that in doing these orders, I have 44 or 52 max food by about 8:30 (I don't waste money on excess pylons, that's the sign of an inefficient build). This means 4 pylons. This also means that depending on the map there are 2 at the natural, and the rest back at home. If the build hits at 7 or 7:30, there is no way that pylon placement alone will save you all of the time from Nydus drops since you are likely to only have 3 pylons, unless you're bad and spend 100 minerals on a pylon you won't use for another minute or two and even then 4 (with at least 1 in the front) is not enough to cover the main on some maps (Shak, Antiga, Korhal, Metal, even Daybreak off the top of my head). Maps that have in base LOS blockers (Metal, Antiga) by default require an additional pylon to cover the main.
It is totally incorrect to say that pylon placement alone can help you defend vs Nydus, and if you are placing pylons around the rim of your main AND scouting, you're doing it wrong. Put the few pylons you have in correct spots to reduce the amount of Artosis pylons you have and just scout in-base fog of war areas at 7:00 if a quick 3rd wasn't placed in response to FFE.
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On May 30 2012 08:49 Mahtasooma wrote:
As you are Nydussing anyways.. I fail to see why you would want ling speed?
This is possible off of one gas without ling speed.
Why would you not want ling speed?
Helps to deny any scouting probes to help prevent the scout of a nydus, enables you to be more mobile once inside his base running down fleeing probes, denying pylons that may hinder doing economic damage, or even with a new batch you can go and deny him from taking his 3rd (which would be his expo which would mean his nat his now his main) after killing off his main.
Maybe you just didn't think of that or were completely oblivious to the fact of that.
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On May 30 2012 08:54 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 08:49 Mahtasooma wrote:
As you are Nydussing anyways.. I fail to see why you would want ling speed?
This is possible off of one gas without ling speed. Why would you not want ling speed? Helps to deny any scouting probes to help prevent the scout of a nydus, enables you to be more mobile once inside his base running down fleeing probes, denying pylons that may hinder doing economic damage, or even with a new batch you can go and deny him from taking his 3rd (which would be his expo which would mean his nat his now his main) after killing off his main. Maybe you just didn't think of that or were completely oblivious to the fact of that.
Point of the build is not to kill probes in the first place, but to shut down his entire production. No matter how many probes he has, if all his gates are unpowered, he won't be able to do much. I'd totally ignore his main actually after the cruicial pylons have been killed and would go for the two pylons in the nat powering the rest, THEN go for the probes. Running probes don't mine much, either, and range 5 queens should take care of that anyway.
The point is the nydus hits even faster AND you only need one gas. this nets you with even more queens and lings at the time the nydus hits. yes, your lings would be slower, but pylons don't move as much and try kiting tons of lings and queens with one sentry or stalker. It's just totally irrelevant for this build as it's an allin anyways.
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Its interesting that this build hits at the 7:30 timing. However:
1. Probe can scout the gas
2. Even if you fake the third, a zealot poke will reveal it, and if he sees no third after the fake, its going to set off alarm bells.
3. An early stalker is going to pin down your overlords.
4. A technique I've used in the past to deal with late scout nydus worms is to ff around it so nothing can get out. A FFE should have 3 sentries out by then, maybe with a stalker, which is enough time to kill it off.
If you're relying on your opponent not noticing your nydus, you may as well proxy hatch them, which hits much earlier, at a time when they dont have pylons spread about their base, and virtually no units to defend.
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On May 30 2012 09:11 Mahtasooma wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 08:54 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:On May 30 2012 08:49 Mahtasooma wrote:
As you are Nydussing anyways.. I fail to see why you would want ling speed?
This is possible off of one gas without ling speed. Why would you not want ling speed? Helps to deny any scouting probes to help prevent the scout of a nydus, enables you to be more mobile once inside his base running down fleeing probes, denying pylons that may hinder doing economic damage, or even with a new batch you can go and deny him from taking his 3rd (which would be his expo which would mean his nat his now his main) after killing off his main. Maybe you just didn't think of that or were completely oblivious to the fact of that. Point of the build is not to kill probes in the first place, but to shut down his entire production. No matter how many probes he has, if all his gates are unpowered, he won't be able to do much. I'd totally ignore his main actually after the cruicial pylons have been killed and would go for the two pylons in the nat powering the rest, THEN go for the probes. Running probes don't mine much, either, and range 5 queens should take care of that anyway. The point is the nydus hits even faster AND you only need one gas. this nets you with even more queens and lings at the time the nydus hits. yes, your lings would be slower, but pylons don't move as much and try kiting tons of lings and queens with one sentry or stalker. It's just totally irrelevant for this build as it's an allin anyways.
Even if you 1 gas it, you won't get 6 queens out unless you completely disregard lings. And even then you wont have 6 come 7:30 with a nydus.
I can see your understanding of the speed not being essential however you run the risk of him getting a separate expansion up with defense due to having slow lings.
If you disregard after killing off pylons then you're leaving his main nexus up which he can then resaturate once he has terminated your nydus/ling offensive, which in turn he would still be at 2 base to 2 base.
And even after the fact, he has made this a complete all-in without doing a follow-up which in turn if it fails he loses. He is stating he has a 80-90% win rate which overall comes down to how lucky he is on his opponent not scouting/seeing this attack and if denied he has no follow up.
Like I said, I have been doing a fast nydus since season 2 and I can give 3500+ replays of strictly nydus opening that hits at 7 minutes with a follow-up after wards to go towards mid/late game by taking the 3rd and keeping up with the tech. With how I've been doing my strict nydus build I can contest that it does have a 80-85% win rate however it is only beneficial to do it on specific maps. Shakuras / Tal'adrim / Daybreak have the best openess/ability to drop the nydus, while the remainder maps have a lower chance of being effective.
On May 30 2012 08:39 ReMiiX wrote:
I thought this was the Sony build.
^ Someone who has seen it first hand and knows that I've been doing it for a long time.
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Cool stuff this, nydus is such an underused ability!
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On May 30 2012 08:53 tehemperorer wrote:
Eids, in your build's defense:
What people are saying about effective pylon placement denying Nydus is dead wrong; they clearly don't FFE ever.
When I FFE, I do a very crisp set of orders if they drop a fast third in response to FFE, starting at about 4 minutes. I know for a fact that in doing these orders, I have 44 or 52 max food by about 8:30 (I don't waste money on excess pylons, that's the sign of an inefficient build). This means 4 pylons. This also means that depending on the map there are 2 at the natural, and the rest back at home. If the build hits at 7 or 7:30, there is no way that pylon placement alone will save you all of the time from Nydus drops since you are likely to only have 3 pylons, unless you're bad and spend 100 minerals on a pylon you won't use for another minute or two and even then 4 (with at least 1 in the front) is not enough to cover the main on some maps (Shak, Antiga, Korhal, Metal, even Daybreak off the top of my head). Maps that have in base LOS blockers (Metal, Antiga) by default require an additional pylon to cover the main.
It is totally incorrect to say that pylon placement alone can help you defend vs Nydus, and if you are placing pylons around the rim of your main AND scouting, you're doing it wrong. Put the few pylons you have in correct spots to reduce the amount of Artosis pylons you have and just scout in-base fog of war areas at 7:00 if a quick 3rd wasn't placed in response to FFE.
.... If you scout no 3rd base you should be building extra pylons. Wasting money on pylons and losing your 'ultra efficient build' is worth not losing the game lol.
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have you thought about feigning a 2 base roach push by dropping a roach warren at the natural?
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On May 30 2012 08:39 ReMiiX wrote:
I realize this is for ZvP but what does OP think of Nydus ZvT? I dont think ive had a zerg nydus me since season one on ladder, but I feel like it could be pretty good on big maps.
I have been playing around some with zvt's vs different terran builds. However I'm not sure how I feel about it. I think you would instantly lose to a siegetank pretty much. But then again, I would say terrans are even worse than protoss scouting their base.
Here are some replays. (Super sloppy though and just playing around as mentioned)
http://drop.sc/188677?pass=c287ea84-7d9e-460f-ac8d-0bed11240115
http://drop.sc/188678?pass=7e6fb59b-41e9-4391-b7d9-ebac27c1f42e
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On May 30 2012 09:11 chestnutcc wrote:
Its interesting that this build hits at the 7:30 timing. However:
1. Probe can scout the gas
2. Even if you fake the third, a zealot poke will reveal it, and if he sees no third after the fake, its going to set off alarm bells.
3. An early stalker is going to pin down your overlords.
4. A technique I've used in the past to deal with late scout nydus worms is to ff around it so nothing can get out. A FFE should have 3 sentries out by then, maybe with a stalker, which is enough time to kill it off.
If you're relying on your opponent not noticing your nydus, you may as well proxy hatch them, which hits much earlier, at a time when they dont have pylons spread about their base, and virtually no units to defend.
Thing is, even though scouting 1 gas at 18 food, protoss can't jump to conclusion about nydus going up. There are alot of builds zerg can do taking just the first gas at this timing. (It standard for any kind of speedling build),
Personally I have never tried faking the third, as I have experienced no need for this so far.
Early stalker when going ffe? People tend to opt for sentry.
FF-thingy seems like a 1 in 100 shot. The ffe will probably have 1 or 2 sentries out by then. Proxy hatch doesn't serve the same purpose at all.
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On May 30 2012 11:50 O.Golden_ne wrote:
have you thought about feigning a 2 base roach push by dropping a roach warren at the natural?
I have not tried this bro
I'm not sure what message this would bring to the protoss. I think this might make them more alert. Maybe only focusing on their wall though. Not sure.
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On May 30 2012 21:25 Eids wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 09:11 chestnutcc wrote:
Its interesting that this build hits at the 7:30 timing. However:
1. Probe can scout the gas
2. Even if you fake the third, a zealot poke will reveal it, and if he sees no third after the fake, its going to set off alarm bells.
3. An early stalker is going to pin down your overlords.
4. A technique I've used in the past to deal with late scout nydus worms is to ff around it so nothing can get out. A FFE should have 3 sentries out by then, maybe with a stalker, which is enough time to kill it off.
If you're relying on your opponent not noticing your nydus, you may as well proxy hatch them, which hits much earlier, at a time when they dont have pylons spread about their base, and virtually no units to defend.
Thing is, even though scouting 1 gas at 18 food, protoss can't jump to conclusion about nydus going up. There are alot of builds zerg can do taking just the first gas at this timing. (It standard for any kind of speedling build), Personally I have never tried faking the third, as I have experienced no need for this so far. Early stalker when going ffe? People tend to opt for sentry. FF-thingy seems like a 1 in 100 shot. The ffe will probably have 1 or 2 sentries out by then. Proxy hatch doesn't serve the same purpose at all.
2 base zerg with gas merits a hard scout. It doesn't reveal the nydus, but it raises flags which changes the way the FFE is played as opposed to how it against a gasless 3 hatch.
Zealot stalker pressure is v common against 3 hatch builds, and a fast scout is needed vs gas builds.
FF traps are hardly a gamble, only if the nydus is completely unscouted, more often its spotted just as its about to erupt and probes can't finish it off, in which case sentries seal it off.
The point about the proxy hatch is simply that if you want a strategy that hits at an awkward time and relies on your opponent not scouting it at all, a proxy hatch achieves exactly the same thing.
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On May 30 2012 21:34 chestnutcc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 21:25 Eids wrote:On May 30 2012 09:11 chestnutcc wrote:
Its interesting that this build hits at the 7:30 timing. However:
1. Probe can scout the gas
2. Even if you fake the third, a zealot poke will reveal it, and if he sees no third after the fake, its going to set off alarm bells.
3. An early stalker is going to pin down your overlords.
4. A technique I've used in the past to deal with late scout nydus worms is to ff around it so nothing can get out. A FFE should have 3 sentries out by then, maybe with a stalker, which is enough time to kill it off.
If you're relying on your opponent not noticing your nydus, you may as well proxy hatch them, which hits much earlier, at a time when they dont have pylons spread about their base, and virtually no units to defend.
Thing is, even though scouting 1 gas at 18 food, protoss can't jump to conclusion about nydus going up. There are alot of builds zerg can do taking just the first gas at this timing. (It standard for any kind of speedling build), Personally I have never tried faking the third, as I have experienced no need for this so far. Early stalker when going ffe? People tend to opt for sentry. FF-thingy seems like a 1 in 100 shot. The ffe will probably have 1 or 2 sentries out by then. Proxy hatch doesn't serve the same purpose at all. 2 base zerg with gas merits a hard scout. It doesn't reveal the nydus, but it raises flags which changes the way the FFE is played as opposed to how it against a gasless 3 hatch. Zealot stalker pressure is v common against 3 hatch builds, and a fast scout is needed vs gas builds. FF traps are hardly a gamble, only if the nydus is completely unscouted, more often its spotted just as its about to erupt and probes can't finish it off, in which case sentries seal it off. The point about the proxy hatch is simply that if you want a strategy that hits at an awkward time and relies on your opponent not scouting it at all, a proxy hatch achieves exactly the same thing.
I understand you could feel this way. However I disagree, as mentioned in guide and previous posts.
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Sony's input is pretty interesting/valuable here.
Just from a mid/highish-masters Protoss (~1000 points) perspective, if I see a gas/pool opening, I'm immediately trying to find out exactly what all in you're going to do. I'll be sending out a second probe for a followup scout. Nobody does a speedling expand vs FFE, and if you do, I can still play safely without putting myself behind.
Nobody who knows what they're doing will rely on pylons to spot the nydus. I patrol probes.
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Hi Chemist! You sexy beast.
As a person that relies heavily on scouting in PvZ, I wouldn't have a hard time against this build unless you did something tricky like poke the front while nydus'ing in the back in hopes that I don't spot it on my mini-map. 2-base as a whole means Protoss just has to make extra cannons and patrol probes to watch for a Nydus, considering Zerg can't do much else besides 2-base Muta which is a pretty easy build to beat nowadays.
Otherwise, you'd need to take a 3rd and abuse scouting the same way that Zenio's 3hatch baneling bust does. Protoss will often cut a lot of corners if they see a 3rd base being taken against FFE, so maybe you'd get wins by taking that 3rd base (not droning behind it) and then putting a nydus worm in a spot that wasn't revealed by pylons.
Either way, it's all a risk that kind of relies on Protoss not spotting the worm for one reason or another. You'd still get a lot of wins because people are bad at reacting to what they scout, even in Masters, but still it'll eventually get figured out and you'll get frustrated by people that know what they are doing, unless you find a way to hide it better (taking a 3rd hatch and late gas).
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Well point being, it's hardest to react to something as P or T, actually, when you see it coming too late. And 7:30 is really early.
You don't just finish warpgate and just have 3 more gates. So it might be a really good idea to actually put down that third base, because toss is likely to have an additional probe somewhere or scout one way or another, and if he sees no third, at the current state of the metagame, it's an allin.
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Sony - I would you mind posting some replays of your style (or at least point me where to get them) just to compare the styles? I like to look at the replays to see which I like better instead of just the BO's.
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On May 31 2012 03:41 SidewinderSC2 wrote:
Hi Chemist! You sexy beast.
As a person that relies heavily on scouting in PvZ, I wouldn't have a hard time against this build unless you did something tricky like poke the front while nydus'ing in the back in hopes that I don't spot it on my mini-map. 2-base as a whole means Protoss just has to make extra cannons and patrol probes to watch for a Nydus, considering Zerg can't do much else besides 2-base Muta which is a pretty easy build to beat nowadays.
Otherwise, you'd need to take a 3rd and abuse scouting the same way that Zenio's 3hatch baneling bust does. Protoss will often cut a lot of corners if they see a 3rd base being taken against FFE, so maybe you'd get wins by taking that 3rd base (not droning behind it) and then putting a nydus worm in a spot that wasn't revealed by pylons.
Either way, it's all a risk that kind of relies on Protoss not spotting the worm for one reason or another. You'd still get a lot of wins because people are bad at reacting to what they scout, even in Masters, but still it'll eventually get figured out and you'll get frustrated by people that know what they are doing, unless you find a way to hide it better (taking a 3rd hatch and late gas).
I agree. I am sure protoss in the future will be better at dealing with this kind of stuff. But as of now, it seems it will give a lot of free wins even in high master (executed properly).
In lower leagues I would assume players to be even less aware of nydusplay and scouting/reacting to it.
I find it funny how the majority of protoss seem to not having a problem what so ever with similar builds like this, and obviously knows how to react to it.
My original thought was, reacting to it is easier said than done, as my personal experiences support.
I might be wrong though.
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Every time somebody does this to me, its pretty much an auto loose since i'm never able to have my production ready for it and im a mid masters toss aswell 
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On May 31 2012 07:14 BoZiffer wrote:
Sony - I would you mind posting some replays of your style (or at least point me where to get them) just to compare the styles? I like to look at the replays to see which I like better instead of just the BO's.
Here's a taste of it when toss will stick around, so you can see the general follow up.
Me vs Axslav
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.mediafire.com/?c78pc5efs5594v5
Me vs some KR/TX masters toss
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.mediafire.com/?uls4hrs8w2nv3dw
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On May 30 2012 11:28 MateShade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 08:53 tehemperorer wrote:
Eids, in your build's defense:
What people are saying about effective pylon placement denying Nydus is dead wrong; they clearly don't FFE ever.
When I FFE, I do a very crisp set of orders if they drop a fast third in response to FFE, starting at about 4 minutes. I know for a fact that in doing these orders, I have 44 or 52 max food by about 8:30 (I don't waste money on excess pylons, that's the sign of an inefficient build). This means 4 pylons. This also means that depending on the map there are 2 at the natural, and the rest back at home. If the build hits at 7 or 7:30, there is no way that pylon placement alone will save you all of the time from Nydus drops since you are likely to only have 3 pylons, unless you're bad and spend 100 minerals on a pylon you won't use for another minute or two and even then 4 (with at least 1 in the front) is not enough to cover the main on some maps (Shak, Antiga, Korhal, Metal, even Daybreak off the top of my head). Maps that have in base LOS blockers (Metal, Antiga) by default require an additional pylon to cover the main.
It is totally incorrect to say that pylon placement alone can help you defend vs Nydus, and if you are placing pylons around the rim of your main AND scouting, you're doing it wrong. Put the few pylons you have in correct spots to reduce the amount of Artosis pylons you have and just scout in-base fog of war areas at 7:00 if a quick 3rd wasn't placed in response to FFE.
.... If you scout no 3rd base you should be building extra pylons. Wasting money on pylons and losing your 'ultra efficient build' is worth not losing the game lol.
That doesn't make sense, why are you making pylons if no third again? You should be like I said scouting your base with probe
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Mahtasooma, Replay for you specifically against vVvEzaLB
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.mediafire.com/?55rb88coavv7wa6
As you see, this is why you need speed. If I didn't have ling speed he would have secured the 9 o'clock which in turn would have kept him at a pace with running 6 gates for a more effective all-in.
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On May 30 2012 09:16 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:
And even after the fact, he has made this a complete all-in without doing a follow-up which in turn if it fails he loses. He is stating he has a 80-90% win rate which overall comes down to how lucky he is on his opponent not scouting/seeing this attack and if denied he has no follow up.
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Were you referring to me not having a follow-up?
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On June 01 2012 06:50 Eids wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 09:16 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:
And even after the fact, he has made this a complete all-in without doing a follow-up which in turn if it fails he loses. He is stating he has a 80-90% win rate which overall comes down to how lucky he is on his opponent not scouting/seeing this attack and if denied he has no follow up.
. Were you referring to me not having a follow-up?
Yes. Making 3-5 spinecrawlers isn't a follow-up. It's just showing you're afraid of a all-in when you could deter that same and make a roach warren with evo chamber for +1 missile and take a 3rd and still be safe because you'll have the larvae to make lings and should have 3-4 queens after doing a nydus. If you want to (which I do) is get Burrow and send the lings out to expansions burrowing them instead of just camping them since a ling is so fragile in that point of the game.
A competent protoss will either try to take a expansion, have their stargate with void production going from their natural or 4-6 gate pressure all-in.
Pending what you see, roach/ling/queen will prevent and counter those builds especially when you have 3 base to a 1-2 base.
Either way you look at it, you're still ahead doing what I said instead of making 3-5 spines. Only need 1 at your expo with doing this.
But what do I know, I've been doing this since season 2, did it at MLG's, and still do it to this day on specific maps or vs certain openings.
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On June 01 2012 07:00 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 06:50 Eids wrote:On May 30 2012 09:16 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:
And even after the fact, he has made this a complete all-in without doing a follow-up which in turn if it fails he loses. He is stating he has a 80-90% win rate which overall comes down to how lucky he is on his opponent not scouting/seeing this attack and if denied he has no follow up.
. Were you referring to me not having a follow-up? Yes. Making 3-5 spinecrawlers isn't a follow-up. It's just showing you're afraid of a all-in when you could deter that same and make a roach warren with evo chamber for +1 missile and take a 3rd and still be safe because you'll have the larvae to make lings and should have 3-4 queens after doing a nydus. If you want to (which I do) is get Burrow and send the lings out to expansions burrowing them instead of just camping them since a ling is so fragile in that point of the game. A competent protoss will either try to take a expansion, have their stargate with void production going from their natural or 4-6 gate pressure all-in. Pending what you see, roach/ling/queen will prevent and counter those builds especially when you have 3 base to a 1-2 base. Either way you look at it, you're still ahead doing what I said instead of making 3-5 spines. Only need 1 at your expo with doing this. But what do I know, I've been doing this since season 2, did it at MLG's, and still do it to this day on specific maps or vs certain openings.
You realize I was making 3-5 spines at HIS main, not at my natural, preventing him to retake his main while scouting around the other possible expansions he could expand to with speedlings. This way there is no way of him taking an expo, and no way of him taking his main. Read before commenting please.
Edit.
As I said in the guide, once you have killed off his main, there are really no way of losing the game if you just keep him from expanding. ie do whatever followup you want based on what he does
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On June 01 2012 07:15 Eids wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 07:00 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:On June 01 2012 06:50 Eids wrote:On May 30 2012 09:16 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:
And even after the fact, he has made this a complete all-in without doing a follow-up which in turn if it fails he loses. He is stating he has a 80-90% win rate which overall comes down to how lucky he is on his opponent not scouting/seeing this attack and if denied he has no follow up.
. Were you referring to me not having a follow-up? Yes. Making 3-5 spinecrawlers isn't a follow-up. It's just showing you're afraid of a all-in when you could deter that same and make a roach warren with evo chamber for +1 missile and take a 3rd and still be safe because you'll have the larvae to make lings and should have 3-4 queens after doing a nydus. If you want to (which I do) is get Burrow and send the lings out to expansions burrowing them instead of just camping them since a ling is so fragile in that point of the game. A competent protoss will either try to take a expansion, have their stargate with void production going from their natural or 4-6 gate pressure all-in. Pending what you see, roach/ling/queen will prevent and counter those builds especially when you have 3 base to a 1-2 base. Either way you look at it, you're still ahead doing what I said instead of making 3-5 spines. Only need 1 at your expo with doing this. But what do I know, I've been doing this since season 2, did it at MLG's, and still do it to this day on specific maps or vs certain openings. You realize I was making 3-5 spines at HIS main, not at my natural, preventing him to retake his main while scouting around the other possible expansions he could expand to with speedlings. This way there is no way of him taking an expo, and no way of him taking his main. Read before commenting please. Edit. As I said in the guide, once you have killed off his main, there are really no way of losing the game if you just keep him from expanding. ie do whatever followup you want based on what he does
Making 3-5 at his main is still not needed. You're wasting 350-500 minerals only something that isn't required. 1-2 is fine if you want to harass his mineral line/pylons at his natural but either way, just by putting creep tumors down and spreading creep in his main you've already done what you needed to do.
And even still, you still haven't given a exceptional follow-up. What if he doesnt gg? What if he goes 5-6 gate? You wont have anything other than lings/queens to back up which in turn zlot/sentry/stalker counter that when its all-in especially since they would have started their +1 attack.
And by saying "do whatever follow-up you want" isn't valid at all. Just shows that yes you have tried doing something but haven't fully thought it through to the end with it.
I uploaded a few replays of what I've been doing now for 5 straight seasons with a complete follow through. Each replay will show you early game gg, mid game gg and late game gg.
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On June 01 2012 07:24 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 07:15 Eids wrote:On June 01 2012 07:00 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:On June 01 2012 06:50 Eids wrote:On May 30 2012 09:16 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:
And even after the fact, he has made this a complete all-in without doing a follow-up which in turn if it fails he loses. He is stating he has a 80-90% win rate which overall comes down to how lucky he is on his opponent not scouting/seeing this attack and if denied he has no follow up.
. Were you referring to me not having a follow-up? Yes. Making 3-5 spinecrawlers isn't a follow-up. It's just showing you're afraid of a all-in when you could deter that same and make a roach warren with evo chamber for +1 missile and take a 3rd and still be safe because you'll have the larvae to make lings and should have 3-4 queens after doing a nydus. If you want to (which I do) is get Burrow and send the lings out to expansions burrowing them instead of just camping them since a ling is so fragile in that point of the game. A competent protoss will either try to take a expansion, have their stargate with void production going from their natural or 4-6 gate pressure all-in. Pending what you see, roach/ling/queen will prevent and counter those builds especially when you have 3 base to a 1-2 base. Either way you look at it, you're still ahead doing what I said instead of making 3-5 spines. Only need 1 at your expo with doing this. But what do I know, I've been doing this since season 2, did it at MLG's, and still do it to this day on specific maps or vs certain openings. You realize I was making 3-5 spines at HIS main, not at my natural, preventing him to retake his main while scouting around the other possible expansions he could expand to with speedlings. This way there is no way of him taking an expo, and no way of him taking his main. Read before commenting please. Edit. As I said in the guide, once you have killed off his main, there are really no way of losing the game if you just keep him from expanding. ie do whatever followup you want based on what he does Making 3-5 at his main is still not needed. You're wasting 350-500 minerals only something that isn't required. 1-2 is fine if you want to harass his mineral line/pylons at his natural but either way, just by putting creep tumors down and spreading creep in his main you've already done what you needed to do. And even still, you still haven't given a exceptional follow-up. What if he doesnt gg? What if he goes 5-6 gate? You wont have anything other than lings/queens to back up which in turn zlot/sentry/stalker counter that when its all-in especially since they would have started their +1 attack. And by saying "do whatever follow-up you want" isn't valid at all. Just shows that yes you have tried doing something but haven't fully thought it through to the end with it. I uploaded a few replays of what I've been doing now for 5 straight seasons with a complete follow through. Each replay will show you early game gg, mid game gg and late game gg.
I think you fail to realize that attacking at 7:30 is probably alot different than doing your build at 7:00. This means to things.
A) I will probably kill off alot more infrastructure. (Due to most of it being in the main)
B) I will probably have alot more economy
This leaves protoss with something like 2 gates and a forge with +1. or maybe an additional robo at tops.
Securing the main with 3-4 spines is SUPER cost efficient at this point, and you wont have to wait for roach warren. This way you can secure his main 100% while probably picking off 1 of his gateway/robo/something. Either way, there is no way you can move down that ramp WITH roaches cause of sentry. So you might as well drone instead.
(I wasn't at all saying that roaches wouldn't work, ofcourse they would. The main objective was securing their main.)
This is also the reason for me not giving the exact followup.
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On June 01 2012 07:40 Eids wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 07:24 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:On June 01 2012 07:15 Eids wrote:On June 01 2012 07:00 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:On June 01 2012 06:50 Eids wrote:On May 30 2012 09:16 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:
And even after the fact, he has made this a complete all-in without doing a follow-up which in turn if it fails he loses. He is stating he has a 80-90% win rate which overall comes down to how lucky he is on his opponent not scouting/seeing this attack and if denied he has no follow up.
. Were you referring to me not having a follow-up? Yes. Making 3-5 spinecrawlers isn't a follow-up. It's just showing you're afraid of a all-in when you could deter that same and make a roach warren with evo chamber for +1 missile and take a 3rd and still be safe because you'll have the larvae to make lings and should have 3-4 queens after doing a nydus. If you want to (which I do) is get Burrow and send the lings out to expansions burrowing them instead of just camping them since a ling is so fragile in that point of the game. A competent protoss will either try to take a expansion, have their stargate with void production going from their natural or 4-6 gate pressure all-in. Pending what you see, roach/ling/queen will prevent and counter those builds especially when you have 3 base to a 1-2 base. Either way you look at it, you're still ahead doing what I said instead of making 3-5 spines. Only need 1 at your expo with doing this. But what do I know, I've been doing this since season 2, did it at MLG's, and still do it to this day on specific maps or vs certain openings. You realize I was making 3-5 spines at HIS main, not at my natural, preventing him to retake his main while scouting around the other possible expansions he could expand to with speedlings. This way there is no way of him taking an expo, and no way of him taking his main. Read before commenting please. Edit. As I said in the guide, once you have killed off his main, there are really no way of losing the game if you just keep him from expanding. ie do whatever followup you want based on what he does Making 3-5 at his main is still not needed. You're wasting 350-500 minerals only something that isn't required. 1-2 is fine if you want to harass his mineral line/pylons at his natural but either way, just by putting creep tumors down and spreading creep in his main you've already done what you needed to do. And even still, you still haven't given a exceptional follow-up. What if he doesnt gg? What if he goes 5-6 gate? You wont have anything other than lings/queens to back up which in turn zlot/sentry/stalker counter that when its all-in especially since they would have started their +1 attack. And by saying "do whatever follow-up you want" isn't valid at all. Just shows that yes you have tried doing something but haven't fully thought it through to the end with it. I uploaded a few replays of what I've been doing now for 5 straight seasons with a complete follow through. Each replay will show you early game gg, mid game gg and late game gg. I think you fail to realize that attacking at 7:30 is probably alot different than doing your build at 7:00. This means to things. A) I will probably kill off alot more infrastructure. (Due to most of it being in the main) B) I will probably have alot more economy This leaves protoss with something like 2 gates and a forge with +1. or maybe an additional robo at tops. Securing the main with 3-4 spines is SUPER cost efficient at this point, and you wont have to wait for roach warren. This way you can secure his main 100% while probably picking off 1 of his gateway/robo/something. Either way, there is no way you can move down that ramp WITH roaches cause of sentry. So you might as well drone instead. (I wasn't at all saying that roaches wouldn't work, ofcourse they would. The main objective was securing their main.) This is also the reason for me not giving the exact followup.
If you download the replays you would see exactly how much damage can be done by doing it my way and its much safer overall.
Huge differences between the builds. Yours just seems way to flimsy if it fails because you are forcing yourself to make it work or its gg. Whereas with mine you are able to stay ahead and up to par even if it fails or not enough damage is done. Have plenty of replays where nydus doesnt do as much damage as it needed too and yet still ahead and still come out on top with it.
Either way, there is no way you can move down that ramp WITH roaches cause of sentry. So you might as well drone instead.
Why do you think I opt for burrow? Only common sense to get tunneling claws once you get burrow if going roaches. Guess roaches are unable to burrow move under FF now. That is a new memo to me.
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On June 01 2012 07:53 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 07:40 Eids wrote:On June 01 2012 07:24 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:On June 01 2012 07:15 Eids wrote:On June 01 2012 07:00 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:On June 01 2012 06:50 Eids wrote:On May 30 2012 09:16 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:
And even after the fact, he has made this a complete all-in without doing a follow-up which in turn if it fails he loses. He is stating he has a 80-90% win rate which overall comes down to how lucky he is on his opponent not scouting/seeing this attack and if denied he has no follow up.
. Were you referring to me not having a follow-up? Yes. Making 3-5 spinecrawlers isn't a follow-up. It's just showing you're afraid of a all-in when you could deter that same and make a roach warren with evo chamber for +1 missile and take a 3rd and still be safe because you'll have the larvae to make lings and should have 3-4 queens after doing a nydus. If you want to (which I do) is get Burrow and send the lings out to expansions burrowing them instead of just camping them since a ling is so fragile in that point of the game. A competent protoss will either try to take a expansion, have their stargate with void production going from their natural or 4-6 gate pressure all-in. Pending what you see, roach/ling/queen will prevent and counter those builds especially when you have 3 base to a 1-2 base. Either way you look at it, you're still ahead doing what I said instead of making 3-5 spines. Only need 1 at your expo with doing this. But what do I know, I've been doing this since season 2, did it at MLG's, and still do it to this day on specific maps or vs certain openings. You realize I was making 3-5 spines at HIS main, not at my natural, preventing him to retake his main while scouting around the other possible expansions he could expand to with speedlings. This way there is no way of him taking an expo, and no way of him taking his main. Read before commenting please. Edit. As I said in the guide, once you have killed off his main, there are really no way of losing the game if you just keep him from expanding. ie do whatever followup you want based on what he does Making 3-5 at his main is still not needed. You're wasting 350-500 minerals only something that isn't required. 1-2 is fine if you want to harass his mineral line/pylons at his natural but either way, just by putting creep tumors down and spreading creep in his main you've already done what you needed to do. And even still, you still haven't given a exceptional follow-up. What if he doesnt gg? What if he goes 5-6 gate? You wont have anything other than lings/queens to back up which in turn zlot/sentry/stalker counter that when its all-in especially since they would have started their +1 attack. And by saying "do whatever follow-up you want" isn't valid at all. Just shows that yes you have tried doing something but haven't fully thought it through to the end with it. I uploaded a few replays of what I've been doing now for 5 straight seasons with a complete follow through. Each replay will show you early game gg, mid game gg and late game gg. I think you fail to realize that attacking at 7:30 is probably alot different than doing your build at 7:00. This means to things. A) I will probably kill off alot more infrastructure. (Due to most of it being in the main) B) I will probably have alot more economy This leaves protoss with something like 2 gates and a forge with +1. or maybe an additional robo at tops. Securing the main with 3-4 spines is SUPER cost efficient at this point, and you wont have to wait for roach warren. This way you can secure his main 100% while probably picking off 1 of his gateway/robo/something. Either way, there is no way you can move down that ramp WITH roaches cause of sentry. So you might as well drone instead. (I wasn't at all saying that roaches wouldn't work, ofcourse they would. The main objective was securing their main.) This is also the reason for me not giving the exact followup. If you download the replays you would see exactly how much damage can be done by doing it my way and its much safer overall. Huge differences between the builds. Yours just seems way to flimsy if it fails because you are forcing yourself to make it work or its gg. Whereas with mine you are able to stay ahead and up to par even if it fails or not enough damage is done. Have plenty of replays where nydus doesnt do as much damage as it needed too and yet still ahead and still come out on top with it. Show nested quote +Either way, there is no way you can move down that ramp WITH roaches cause of sentry. So you might as well drone instead. Why do you think I opt for burrow? Only common sense to get tunneling claws once you get burrow if going roaches. Guess roaches are unable to burrow move under FF now. That is a new memo to me.
Yo, the problem you dont see, is that there isn't really a slight chance of losing once the nydus has gone up.
Keeping this in mind, all your statements are irrelevant.
Forcing myself to make it work? forcing what to work?
Have you ever done a nydus and got BEHIND by doing it?
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This can't work very well. [I am a high diamond / low masters toss for reference]
I frequently pylon block on 15 and build a cannon on my opponents natural location, and 1 cannon near the base of his ramp (ala iNcontroL). Zergs often respond to the pylon by taking their third instead of their natural, and bad ones don't pull drones to kill the cannon.
What do we have? We have the Zerg going 2 base all-in with protoss 250, likely 400 (build second cannon at his natural) minerals less then he would in your build. And I never lose to nydus (well, lost once, but I was super cocky and went zealot, sentry, sentry out of my gate and the guy did double nydus worm. Made two at once and I just couldn't handle it, needed that stalker).
All it takes is to get a stalker after 1 sentry, and use 1-2 probes to make sure you have complete vision of your main. Use stalker to chase overlords, pull 5-6 probes and attack the nydus when you see it. Any strong two base timing will destroy him then.
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On June 01 2012 08:13 Eids wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 07:53 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:On June 01 2012 07:40 Eids wrote:On June 01 2012 07:24 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:On June 01 2012 07:15 Eids wrote:On June 01 2012 07:00 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:On June 01 2012 06:50 Eids wrote:On May 30 2012 09:16 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:
And even after the fact, he has made this a complete all-in without doing a follow-up which in turn if it fails he loses. He is stating he has a 80-90% win rate which overall comes down to how lucky he is on his opponent not scouting/seeing this attack and if denied he has no follow up.
. Were you referring to me not having a follow-up? Yes. Making 3-5 spinecrawlers isn't a follow-up. It's just showing you're afraid of a all-in when you could deter that same and make a roach warren with evo chamber for +1 missile and take a 3rd and still be safe because you'll have the larvae to make lings and should have 3-4 queens after doing a nydus. If you want to (which I do) is get Burrow and send the lings out to expansions burrowing them instead of just camping them since a ling is so fragile in that point of the game. A competent protoss will either try to take a expansion, have their stargate with void production going from their natural or 4-6 gate pressure all-in. Pending what you see, roach/ling/queen will prevent and counter those builds especially when you have 3 base to a 1-2 base. Either way you look at it, you're still ahead doing what I said instead of making 3-5 spines. Only need 1 at your expo with doing this. But what do I know, I've been doing this since season 2, did it at MLG's, and still do it to this day on specific maps or vs certain openings. You realize I was making 3-5 spines at HIS main, not at my natural, preventing him to retake his main while scouting around the other possible expansions he could expand to with speedlings. This way there is no way of him taking an expo, and no way of him taking his main. Read before commenting please. Edit. As I said in the guide, once you have killed off his main, there are really no way of losing the game if you just keep him from expanding. ie do whatever followup you want based on what he does Making 3-5 at his main is still not needed. You're wasting 350-500 minerals only something that isn't required. 1-2 is fine if you want to harass his mineral line/pylons at his natural but either way, just by putting creep tumors down and spreading creep in his main you've already done what you needed to do. And even still, you still haven't given a exceptional follow-up. What if he doesnt gg? What if he goes 5-6 gate? You wont have anything other than lings/queens to back up which in turn zlot/sentry/stalker counter that when its all-in especially since they would have started their +1 attack. And by saying "do whatever follow-up you want" isn't valid at all. Just shows that yes you have tried doing something but haven't fully thought it through to the end with it. I uploaded a few replays of what I've been doing now for 5 straight seasons with a complete follow through. Each replay will show you early game gg, mid game gg and late game gg. I think you fail to realize that attacking at 7:30 is probably alot different than doing your build at 7:00. This means to things. A) I will probably kill off alot more infrastructure. (Due to most of it being in the main) B) I will probably have alot more economy This leaves protoss with something like 2 gates and a forge with +1. or maybe an additional robo at tops. Securing the main with 3-4 spines is SUPER cost efficient at this point, and you wont have to wait for roach warren. This way you can secure his main 100% while probably picking off 1 of his gateway/robo/something. Either way, there is no way you can move down that ramp WITH roaches cause of sentry. So you might as well drone instead. (I wasn't at all saying that roaches wouldn't work, ofcourse they would. The main objective was securing their main.) This is also the reason for me not giving the exact followup. If you download the replays you would see exactly how much damage can be done by doing it my way and its much safer overall. Huge differences between the builds. Yours just seems way to flimsy if it fails because you are forcing yourself to make it work or its gg. Whereas with mine you are able to stay ahead and up to par even if it fails or not enough damage is done. Have plenty of replays where nydus doesnt do as much damage as it needed too and yet still ahead and still come out on top with it. Either way, there is no way you can move down that ramp WITH roaches cause of sentry. So you might as well drone instead. Why do you think I opt for burrow? Only common sense to get tunneling claws once you get burrow if going roaches. Guess roaches are unable to burrow move under FF now. That is a new memo to me. Yo, the problem you dont see, is that there isn't really a slight chance of losing once the nydus has gone up. Keeping this in mind, all your statements are irrelevant. Forcing myself to make it work? forcing what to work? Have you ever done a nydus and got BEHIND by doing it?
Have you ever had a nydus be stopped because they actually know how to look for it? By the sound of it, you haven't, which means you're not playing a GM/High masters equivalent MMR to actually theorize/test your build. When you do, you'll see that its flawed and you'll make adjustments.
Again, you're trying to be very defensive of a build that doesnt do what you're saying it does. You wont have 6 queens with lings at 7:30 and if you do the nydus isn't up in their base.
You don't really have a dedicated follow-up other than "do whatever you want" which in turn isn't a valid follow-up. Just states you don't care what you or others do as a follow-up which in turn could make you lose the game pending what the protoss does.
If you obviously dont know what I'm saying when I said forcing it to work, then you obviously haven't thought this build through. Forcing what to work, hmm let's see. What is the main topic of discussion? Nydus? Ok then now that we have that settled.
Overall it just sounds like this is something you either saw someone do and started messing with or just came up out of a whim and started it. Either way you haven't been doing nydus for 5 seasons which in turn makes my point where you're still inexperienced with the build and there is still alot of kinks in it and needs modifications/adjustments.
Like I said, feel free to download those 3 replays which will show 3 different states of the game, early game gg, mid game gg and late game gg.
If you don't care enough or are to ignorant to see the fact that I'm trying to help you then so be it. Don't bother replying back to me in regards to it and it's over with. If you do reply back I'm going to assume that you are wanting help and you will get the help with a build/unit/building composition that I've been doing now for nearly 2 years and have taken games off numerous top 50 GM's and 900-1200 KR Masters players with.
On June 01 2012 08:39 1a2a3aPro wrote:
What do we have? We have the Zerg going 2 base all-in with protoss 250, likely 400 (build second cannon at his natural) minerals less then he would in your build. And I never lose to nydus (well, lost once, but I was super cocky and went zealot, sentry, sentry out of my gate and the guy did double nydus worm. Made two at once and I just couldn't handle it, needed that stalker).
Check the replay and see if it was me. I was testing double nydus at the same time for a few weeks at one point other than building one then having a 2nd one que'ed up in a different location.
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On maps like Cloud Kingdom, assuming you'd place the nydus in the OP's favorite spot, would a queen on the low ground transfusing the upcoming nydus be viable?
So even if a building nydus gets spotted right away by the Protoss player, that low ground queen will keep the nydus alive no matter what. Ofc that queen has to slow-boat all the way across the map unseen, but that should be possible in a FFE situation.
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On June 01 2012 13:28 Hetz wrote:
On maps like Cloud Kingdom, assuming you'd place the nydus in the OP's favorite spot, would a queen on the low ground transfusing the upcoming nydus be viable?
So even if a building nydus gets spotted right away by the Protoss player, that low ground queen will keep the nydus alive no matter what. Ofc that queen has to slow-boat all the way across the map unseen, but that should be possible in a FFE situation.
The criticisms towards this build are not directed to medium diamond or lower. Will it work there? Sure. Quite easily I'd say. Does that make it a solid build? No. Any half decent protoss will not let you slow-move a queen across the map to their low ground without it being spotted and taken out easily.
Please, feel free to use this build on me on the ladder any time. I enjoy easy wins. [I am not trying to be mean to the original poster, but I feel being blunt is necessary as he/she is defending themselves quite heavily. I'm sorry guy, it's just not very solid . If you want to be aggressive in ZvP, practice Steffano style. It'll improve your mechanics a lot while you're at it :D]
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On June 01 2012 08:39 1a2a3aPro wrote:
This can't work very well. [I am a high diamond / low masters toss for reference]
I frequently pylon block on 15 and build a cannon on my opponents natural location, and 1 cannon near the base of his ramp (ala iNcontroL). Zergs often respond to the pylon by taking their third instead of their natural, and bad ones don't pull drones to kill the cannon.
What do we have? We have the Zerg going 2 base all-in with protoss 250, likely 400 (build second cannon at his natural) minerals less then he would in your build. And I never lose to nydus (well, lost once, but I was super cocky and went zealot, sentry, sentry out of my gate and the guy did double nydus worm. Made two at once and I just couldn't handle it, needed that stalker).
All it takes is to get a stalker after 1 sentry, and use 1-2 probes to make sure you have complete vision of your main. Use stalker to chase overlords, pull 5-6 probes and attack the nydus when you see it. Any strong two base timing will destroy him then.
Pylonblocking delays the timing of natural hatch but doesn't change the timings of the nydus. I will have about 2 or 3(tops) less queens though, but this doesn't really hurt the nydus very much. By building a cannon I will pull 4 workers and kill it, while my lings shortly will arrive from doing the 15 pool ( I wont take the third you are talking about, as there would be a pain transfering queens to the nydus ).
Now If you make more than one cannon, this is obviously a different story.
You are stating: "Use stalker to chase overlords".
Are you talking about overlords out on the map heading towards your base then? In most cases I will probably have atleast 2 of my overlords at secure locations outside your main. You could be referring to chasing the overlords trying to dodge in your main.
In that was the case, you obviously have to do that. It gets harder when you have to pay attention to 3 different places though.
But yeah, you should most definately do that, while patroling probes if you suspect nydusplay.
I do agree, that if nydus never goes up in your main. Zerg will in general always lose.
On June 01 2012 13:28 Hetz wrote:
On maps like Cloud Kingdom, assuming you'd place the nydus in the OP's favorite spot, would a queen on the low ground transfusing the upcoming nydus be viable?
So even if a building nydus gets spotted right away by the Protoss player, that low ground queen will keep the nydus alive no matter what. Ofc that queen has to slow-boat all the way across the map unseen, but that should be possible in a FFE situation.
In higher leagues you would never be able to do this I'm afraid. It also wouldn't help you hiding the fact that you're doing the nydus
FT.aCt)Sony:
Yes you can have both 6 queens and nydus at 7:30 if there is no pylonblock. If you get blocked, you obviously will have fewer. As mentioned in guide. Once again, read before stating.
Im being defensive towards inaccurate statements. I am fully aware that there will always be possibilites of change in every build.
I'm not going to try to convince you anymore about the whole follow-up thing cause you clearly refuse to understand.
I do understand that you are very proud of the build you have been doing since seson 2, as you have mentioned it in every post. It might be a good build. I have never disagreed with this.
However, dont come here and post stupid inaccurate shit.
As far as the testing of the build, this is also clearly stated in the guide. Around 35-40 + games at 1000-1100 Eu masters starting from the balance update. (As this guide was mainly written due to queen/overlord change. Again stated)
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On June 01 2012 23:07 Eids wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 08:39 1a2a3aPro wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
This can't work very well. [I am a high diamond / low masters toss for reference]
I frequently pylon block on 15 and build a cannon on my opponents natural location, and 1 cannon near the base of his ramp (ala iNcontroL). Zergs often respond to the pylon by taking their third instead of their natural, and bad ones don't pull drones to kill the cannon.
What do we have? We have the Zerg going 2 base all-in with protoss 250, likely 400 (build second cannon at his natural) minerals less then he would in your build. And I never lose to nydus (well, lost once, but I was super cocky and went zealot, sentry, sentry out of my gate and the guy did double nydus worm. Made two at once and I just couldn't handle it, needed that stalker).
All it takes is to get a stalker after 1 sentry, and use 1-2 probes to make sure you have complete vision of your main. Use stalker to chase overlords, pull 5-6 probes and attack the nydus when you see it. Any strong two base timing will destroy him then.
Pylonblocking delays the timing of natural hatch but doesn't change the timings of the nydus. I will have about 2 or 3(tops) less queens though, but this doesn't really hurt the nydus very much. By building a cannon I will pull 4 workers and kill it, while my lings shortly will arrive from doing the 15 pool ( I wont take the third you are talking about, as there would be a pain transfering queens to the nydus ). Now If you make more than one cannon, this is obviously a different story.
I only lay down the second cannon if the first one is allowed to complete. If they pull, you cancel the cannon. The theory is the lost mining time of the 4 workers is greater than the 37 minerals plus delay in your build (though you constantly probe) you lost from the cancel.
On June 01 2012 23:07 Eids wrote:
You are stating: "Use stalker to chase overlords".
Are you talking about overlords out on the map heading towards your base then?
You get the stalker for two reasons:
1) It has greater DPS then a sentry on the building nydus.
2) You force the overlords back to the very edges of your base, reducing the surface area where you can build a worm (on some maps, nearly eliminating it).
3) If he REALLY goes for it, you can slip one around and get the overlord from the other side. Again, map dependant.
My main criticism is that, if the Protoss reacts properly, he cannot lose the game (You are two basing, to be fair, 'cannot lose' is more 'has a significant advantage'). Scouting around your main and getting a few stalkers out is viable against every Zerg all-in like this.
If you'd like, I can ladder you as many times as you'd like. My point about the pylon cannon cannon was that, even -400 minerals, you can stop the two base nydus (with Z taking his expansion at his third) with ease.
Edit: SIlly dangling quote tag.
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Hi,
Everything I'm about to say is based on the replays you provided. I assume you gave us the best replays you had (both in execution and level of opponent).
1. Your level of play, league related
- you are stating that this works "all the way up to high masters";
- the opponents in your replays are mid-masters at best, with the average being high diamond to low masters
2. Scouting
Your opponents really scout poorly. Some of them don't even look for a third, none of them think about scouting the rim of their base. Rarely they take time to place buildings properly so they have enough vision over their base.
If I go FFE vs. zerg (which I basically always do), I really do my best to keep track of what overlords passed over my base and to make sure I see where they are standing around my base. My ranged unit(s) will always be active around the rim of my base, because I cannot afford you to learn what tech choice I make.
3. Follow-up
You are years behind in economy and can never recover from this if your opponent is of roughly equal skill.
4. Short overview of replays:
vs. barbaric -> he did not scout his base. worker count: 37 vs. 21
vs. cbRRRR -> did not scout his base. Worker count: 24 vs. 42
vs. MaesioW -> did not scout base. Worker count: 23. vs 42. After the initial push it took you another 10 minutes to kill a protoss on one base, with you being on 3.
vs. margren -> did not scout base. 27 vs 38 workers.
vs. Sulk -> did not scout his base. Actually, the nydus can be seen on the minimap from the moment you lay it down (despite a large base on taldarim, he pretty much has vision over his entire main). But it takes him a full 10 seconds to spot it and react. 24 vs 43 workers.
What makes it weak is that you have no control over your opponent scouting his base (as opposed to, say, preventing a probe entering your main) and the whole build is based on poor scouting / building placement. This is a vulnerability which will make it work a lot less frequently as you go up in leagues.
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moQbara:
As mentioned, the replays were only made to illustrate the general build and doesn't really represent what I want.
I'm working on a bigger and better replaypack.
And obviously, I have never stated that doing nydusplay would work 100% of the time. I was merely stating that at the moment, I was experiencing e very good ratio in ladder situations. So I would expect it to work even better in lower leagues.
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What happens if they're preparing for a big gateway play?
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Guys i played against this on ladder, walled off my main, and then rolled with a 4 gate pressure i had already set up, not that good of a build, too gimmicky and for little gain in the grand scheme of things.
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On June 02 2012 08:09 PlacidPanda wrote:
Guys i played against this on ladder, walled off my main, and then rolled with a 4 gate pressure i had already set up, not that good of a build, too gimmicky and for little gain in the grand scheme of things.
This is kinda what I figured. Hopefully one day zergs will incorporate nydus worms without basing gimmicky all ins around them.
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On June 02 2012 08:54 kalteras wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 08:09 PlacidPanda wrote:
Guys i played against this on ladder, walled off my main, and then rolled with a 4 gate pressure i had already set up, not that good of a build, too gimmicky and for little gain in the grand scheme of things. This is kinda what I figured. Hopefully one day zergs will incorporate nydus worms without basing gimmicky all ins around them.
Go download the three I uploaded and you'll see just that.
Aside from early game, you'll still retain the nydus and can then start catching him outside of his base to continue harassing or denying his main. Believe in the replay vs Axslav I did just that.
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EPT
