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On May 30 2012 09:11 Mahtasooma wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 08:54 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:On May 30 2012 08:49 Mahtasooma wrote:
As you are Nydussing anyways.. I fail to see why you would want ling speed?
This is possible off of one gas without ling speed. Why would you not want ling speed? Helps to deny any scouting probes to help prevent the scout of a nydus, enables you to be more mobile once inside his base running down fleeing probes, denying pylons that may hinder doing economic damage, or even with a new batch you can go and deny him from taking his 3rd (which would be his expo which would mean his nat his now his main) after killing off his main. Maybe you just didn't think of that or were completely oblivious to the fact of that. Point of the build is not to kill probes in the first place, but to shut down his entire production. No matter how many probes he has, if all his gates are unpowered, he won't be able to do much. I'd totally ignore his main actually after the cruicial pylons have been killed and would go for the two pylons in the nat powering the rest, THEN go for the probes. Running probes don't mine much, either, and range 5 queens should take care of that anyway. The point is the nydus hits even faster AND you only need one gas. this nets you with even more queens and lings at the time the nydus hits. yes, your lings would be slower, but pylons don't move as much and try kiting tons of lings and queens with one sentry or stalker. It's just totally irrelevant for this build as it's an allin anyways.
Even if you 1 gas it, you won't get 6 queens out unless you completely disregard lings. And even then you wont have 6 come 7:30 with a nydus.
I can see your understanding of the speed not being essential however you run the risk of him getting a separate expansion up with defense due to having slow lings.
If you disregard after killing off pylons then you're leaving his main nexus up which he can then resaturate once he has terminated your nydus/ling offensive, which in turn he would still be at 2 base to 2 base.
And even after the fact, he has made this a complete all-in without doing a follow-up which in turn if it fails he loses. He is stating he has a 80-90% win rate which overall comes down to how lucky he is on his opponent not scouting/seeing this attack and if denied he has no follow up.
Like I said, I have been doing a fast nydus since season 2 and I can give 3500+ replays of strictly nydus opening that hits at 7 minutes with a follow-up after wards to go towards mid/late game by taking the 3rd and keeping up with the tech. With how I've been doing my strict nydus build I can contest that it does have a 80-85% win rate however it is only beneficial to do it on specific maps. Shakuras / Tal'adrim / Daybreak have the best openess/ability to drop the nydus, while the remainder maps have a lower chance of being effective.
On May 30 2012 08:39 ReMiiX wrote:
I thought this was the Sony build.
^ Someone who has seen it first hand and knows that I've been doing it for a long time.
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Cool stuff this, nydus is such an underused ability!
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On May 30 2012 08:53 tehemperorer wrote:
Eids, in your build's defense:
What people are saying about effective pylon placement denying Nydus is dead wrong; they clearly don't FFE ever.
When I FFE, I do a very crisp set of orders if they drop a fast third in response to FFE, starting at about 4 minutes. I know for a fact that in doing these orders, I have 44 or 52 max food by about 8:30 (I don't waste money on excess pylons, that's the sign of an inefficient build). This means 4 pylons. This also means that depending on the map there are 2 at the natural, and the rest back at home. If the build hits at 7 or 7:30, there is no way that pylon placement alone will save you all of the time from Nydus drops since you are likely to only have 3 pylons, unless you're bad and spend 100 minerals on a pylon you won't use for another minute or two and even then 4 (with at least 1 in the front) is not enough to cover the main on some maps (Shak, Antiga, Korhal, Metal, even Daybreak off the top of my head). Maps that have in base LOS blockers (Metal, Antiga) by default require an additional pylon to cover the main.
It is totally incorrect to say that pylon placement alone can help you defend vs Nydus, and if you are placing pylons around the rim of your main AND scouting, you're doing it wrong. Put the few pylons you have in correct spots to reduce the amount of Artosis pylons you have and just scout in-base fog of war areas at 7:00 if a quick 3rd wasn't placed in response to FFE.
.... If you scout no 3rd base you should be building extra pylons. Wasting money on pylons and losing your 'ultra efficient build' is worth not losing the game lol.
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have you thought about feigning a 2 base roach push by dropping a roach warren at the natural?
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On May 30 2012 08:39 ReMiiX wrote:
I realize this is for ZvP but what does OP think of Nydus ZvT? I dont think ive had a zerg nydus me since season one on ladder, but I feel like it could be pretty good on big maps.
I have been playing around some with zvt's vs different terran builds. However I'm not sure how I feel about it. I think you would instantly lose to a siegetank pretty much. But then again, I would say terrans are even worse than protoss scouting their base.
Here are some replays. (Super sloppy though and just playing around as mentioned)
http://drop.sc/188677?pass=c287ea84-7d9e-460f-ac8d-0bed11240115
http://drop.sc/188678?pass=7e6fb59b-41e9-4391-b7d9-ebac27c1f42e
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On May 30 2012 09:11 chestnutcc wrote:
Its interesting that this build hits at the 7:30 timing. However:
1. Probe can scout the gas
2. Even if you fake the third, a zealot poke will reveal it, and if he sees no third after the fake, its going to set off alarm bells.
3. An early stalker is going to pin down your overlords.
4. A technique I've used in the past to deal with late scout nydus worms is to ff around it so nothing can get out. A FFE should have 3 sentries out by then, maybe with a stalker, which is enough time to kill it off.
If you're relying on your opponent not noticing your nydus, you may as well proxy hatch them, which hits much earlier, at a time when they dont have pylons spread about their base, and virtually no units to defend.
Thing is, even though scouting 1 gas at 18 food, protoss can't jump to conclusion about nydus going up. There are alot of builds zerg can do taking just the first gas at this timing. (It standard for any kind of speedling build),
Personally I have never tried faking the third, as I have experienced no need for this so far.
Early stalker when going ffe? People tend to opt for sentry.
FF-thingy seems like a 1 in 100 shot. The ffe will probably have 1 or 2 sentries out by then. Proxy hatch doesn't serve the same purpose at all.
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On May 30 2012 11:50 O.Golden_ne wrote:
have you thought about feigning a 2 base roach push by dropping a roach warren at the natural?
I have not tried this bro 
I'm not sure what message this would bring to the protoss. I think this might make them more alert. Maybe only focusing on their wall though. Not sure.
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On May 30 2012 21:25 Eids wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 09:11 chestnutcc wrote:
Its interesting that this build hits at the 7:30 timing. However:
1. Probe can scout the gas
2. Even if you fake the third, a zealot poke will reveal it, and if he sees no third after the fake, its going to set off alarm bells.
3. An early stalker is going to pin down your overlords.
4. A technique I've used in the past to deal with late scout nydus worms is to ff around it so nothing can get out. A FFE should have 3 sentries out by then, maybe with a stalker, which is enough time to kill it off.
If you're relying on your opponent not noticing your nydus, you may as well proxy hatch them, which hits much earlier, at a time when they dont have pylons spread about their base, and virtually no units to defend.
Thing is, even though scouting 1 gas at 18 food, protoss can't jump to conclusion about nydus going up. There are alot of builds zerg can do taking just the first gas at this timing. (It standard for any kind of speedling build), Personally I have never tried faking the third, as I have experienced no need for this so far. Early stalker when going ffe? People tend to opt for sentry. FF-thingy seems like a 1 in 100 shot. The ffe will probably have 1 or 2 sentries out by then. Proxy hatch doesn't serve the same purpose at all.
2 base zerg with gas merits a hard scout. It doesn't reveal the nydus, but it raises flags which changes the way the FFE is played as opposed to how it against a gasless 3 hatch.
Zealot stalker pressure is v common against 3 hatch builds, and a fast scout is needed vs gas builds.
FF traps are hardly a gamble, only if the nydus is completely unscouted, more often its spotted just as its about to erupt and probes can't finish it off, in which case sentries seal it off.
The point about the proxy hatch is simply that if you want a strategy that hits at an awkward time and relies on your opponent not scouting it at all, a proxy hatch achieves exactly the same thing.
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On May 30 2012 21:34 chestnutcc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 21:25 Eids wrote:On May 30 2012 09:11 chestnutcc wrote:
Its interesting that this build hits at the 7:30 timing. However:
1. Probe can scout the gas
2. Even if you fake the third, a zealot poke will reveal it, and if he sees no third after the fake, its going to set off alarm bells.
3. An early stalker is going to pin down your overlords.
4. A technique I've used in the past to deal with late scout nydus worms is to ff around it so nothing can get out. A FFE should have 3 sentries out by then, maybe with a stalker, which is enough time to kill it off.
If you're relying on your opponent not noticing your nydus, you may as well proxy hatch them, which hits much earlier, at a time when they dont have pylons spread about their base, and virtually no units to defend.
Thing is, even though scouting 1 gas at 18 food, protoss can't jump to conclusion about nydus going up. There are alot of builds zerg can do taking just the first gas at this timing. (It standard for any kind of speedling build), Personally I have never tried faking the third, as I have experienced no need for this so far. Early stalker when going ffe? People tend to opt for sentry. FF-thingy seems like a 1 in 100 shot. The ffe will probably have 1 or 2 sentries out by then. Proxy hatch doesn't serve the same purpose at all. 2 base zerg with gas merits a hard scout. It doesn't reveal the nydus, but it raises flags which changes the way the FFE is played as opposed to how it against a gasless 3 hatch. Zealot stalker pressure is v common against 3 hatch builds, and a fast scout is needed vs gas builds. FF traps are hardly a gamble, only if the nydus is completely unscouted, more often its spotted just as its about to erupt and probes can't finish it off, in which case sentries seal it off. The point about the proxy hatch is simply that if you want a strategy that hits at an awkward time and relies on your opponent not scouting it at all, a proxy hatch achieves exactly the same thing.
I understand you could feel this way. However I disagree, as mentioned in guide and previous posts.
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Sony's input is pretty interesting/valuable here.
Just from a mid/highish-masters Protoss (~1000 points) perspective, if I see a gas/pool opening, I'm immediately trying to find out exactly what all in you're going to do. I'll be sending out a second probe for a followup scout. Nobody does a speedling expand vs FFE, and if you do, I can still play safely without putting myself behind.
Nobody who knows what they're doing will rely on pylons to spot the nydus. I patrol probes.
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Hi Chemist! You sexy beast.
As a person that relies heavily on scouting in PvZ, I wouldn't have a hard time against this build unless you did something tricky like poke the front while nydus'ing in the back in hopes that I don't spot it on my mini-map. 2-base as a whole means Protoss just has to make extra cannons and patrol probes to watch for a Nydus, considering Zerg can't do much else besides 2-base Muta which is a pretty easy build to beat nowadays.
Otherwise, you'd need to take a 3rd and abuse scouting the same way that Zenio's 3hatch baneling bust does. Protoss will often cut a lot of corners if they see a 3rd base being taken against FFE, so maybe you'd get wins by taking that 3rd base (not droning behind it) and then putting a nydus worm in a spot that wasn't revealed by pylons.
Either way, it's all a risk that kind of relies on Protoss not spotting the worm for one reason or another. You'd still get a lot of wins because people are bad at reacting to what they scout, even in Masters, but still it'll eventually get figured out and you'll get frustrated by people that know what they are doing, unless you find a way to hide it better (taking a 3rd hatch and late gas).
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Well point being, it's hardest to react to something as P or T, actually, when you see it coming too late. And 7:30 is really early.
You don't just finish warpgate and just have 3 more gates. So it might be a really good idea to actually put down that third base, because toss is likely to have an additional probe somewhere or scout one way or another, and if he sees no third, at the current state of the metagame, it's an allin.
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Sony - I would you mind posting some replays of your style (or at least point me where to get them) just to compare the styles? I like to look at the replays to see which I like better instead of just the BO's.
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On May 31 2012 03:41 SidewinderSC2 wrote:
Hi Chemist! You sexy beast.
As a person that relies heavily on scouting in PvZ, I wouldn't have a hard time against this build unless you did something tricky like poke the front while nydus'ing in the back in hopes that I don't spot it on my mini-map. 2-base as a whole means Protoss just has to make extra cannons and patrol probes to watch for a Nydus, considering Zerg can't do much else besides 2-base Muta which is a pretty easy build to beat nowadays.
Otherwise, you'd need to take a 3rd and abuse scouting the same way that Zenio's 3hatch baneling bust does. Protoss will often cut a lot of corners if they see a 3rd base being taken against FFE, so maybe you'd get wins by taking that 3rd base (not droning behind it) and then putting a nydus worm in a spot that wasn't revealed by pylons.
Either way, it's all a risk that kind of relies on Protoss not spotting the worm for one reason or another. You'd still get a lot of wins because people are bad at reacting to what they scout, even in Masters, but still it'll eventually get figured out and you'll get frustrated by people that know what they are doing, unless you find a way to hide it better (taking a 3rd hatch and late gas).
I agree. I am sure protoss in the future will be better at dealing with this kind of stuff. But as of now, it seems it will give a lot of free wins even in high master (executed properly).
In lower leagues I would assume players to be even less aware of nydusplay and scouting/reacting to it.
I find it funny how the majority of protoss seem to not having a problem what so ever with similar builds like this, and obviously knows how to react to it.
My original thought was, reacting to it is easier said than done, as my personal experiences support.
I might be wrong though.
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Every time somebody does this to me, its pretty much an auto loose since i'm never able to have my production ready for it and im a mid masters toss aswell 
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On May 31 2012 07:14 BoZiffer wrote:
Sony - I would you mind posting some replays of your style (or at least point me where to get them) just to compare the styles? I like to look at the replays to see which I like better instead of just the BO's.
Here's a taste of it when toss will stick around, so you can see the general follow up.
Me vs Axslav
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.mediafire.com/?c78pc5efs5594v5
Me vs some KR/TX masters toss
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.mediafire.com/?uls4hrs8w2nv3dw
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On May 30 2012 11:28 MateShade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 08:53 tehemperorer wrote:
Eids, in your build's defense:
What people are saying about effective pylon placement denying Nydus is dead wrong; they clearly don't FFE ever.
When I FFE, I do a very crisp set of orders if they drop a fast third in response to FFE, starting at about 4 minutes. I know for a fact that in doing these orders, I have 44 or 52 max food by about 8:30 (I don't waste money on excess pylons, that's the sign of an inefficient build). This means 4 pylons. This also means that depending on the map there are 2 at the natural, and the rest back at home. If the build hits at 7 or 7:30, there is no way that pylon placement alone will save you all of the time from Nydus drops since you are likely to only have 3 pylons, unless you're bad and spend 100 minerals on a pylon you won't use for another minute or two and even then 4 (with at least 1 in the front) is not enough to cover the main on some maps (Shak, Antiga, Korhal, Metal, even Daybreak off the top of my head). Maps that have in base LOS blockers (Metal, Antiga) by default require an additional pylon to cover the main.
It is totally incorrect to say that pylon placement alone can help you defend vs Nydus, and if you are placing pylons around the rim of your main AND scouting, you're doing it wrong. Put the few pylons you have in correct spots to reduce the amount of Artosis pylons you have and just scout in-base fog of war areas at 7:00 if a quick 3rd wasn't placed in response to FFE.
.... If you scout no 3rd base you should be building extra pylons. Wasting money on pylons and losing your 'ultra efficient build' is worth not losing the game lol.
That doesn't make sense, why are you making pylons if no third again? You should be like I said scouting your base with probe
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Mahtasooma, Replay for you specifically against vVvEzaLB
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.mediafire.com/?55rb88coavv7wa6
As you see, this is why you need speed. If I didn't have ling speed he would have secured the 9 o'clock which in turn would have kept him at a pace with running 6 gates for a more effective all-in.
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On May 30 2012 09:16 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:
And even after the fact, he has made this a complete all-in without doing a follow-up which in turn if it fails he loses. He is stating he has a 80-90% win rate which overall comes down to how lucky he is on his opponent not scouting/seeing this attack and if denied he has no follow up.
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Were you referring to me not having a follow-up?
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EPT
