In the GSL 2012 S3 Finals, Game 1, on Daybreak, LG-IM Mvp went for an interesting 1-1-1 expo build that I'd like to discuss. Basically, he opened up with a 1 gas starport rush, and attacked with a medivac, 4 hellions, and 8 marines, while taking his expansion. His expo was pretty quick since he only took 1 gas and never cut scvs, and he was able to deal economic damage that let him transition into a won game.
From this point forwards, you constantly make Marines, Hellions, and a Medivac when your Starport finishes. At 40 supply around 6:00 you move out with your 8 marines, 3 hellions, 1 medivac, and begin your Command Center.
Thoughts/Discussion
So, obviously in the game between Mvp and Squirtle everything went to hell. Instead of having his units at home, Squirtle warped them into Mvp's nat and it became a hilarious base trade. I was wondering how this sort of build would play out normally, and its viability on other maps or against other builds. In this game, Squirtle went for an unusually economical 1gate FE into 4 gateways, which should probably be the strongest defense. He has like 2 stalkers and a zealot as the attack begins, with 4 stalkers warping in.
It's pretty clear that against any sort of Fast-Expanding Protoss you'll need to do a fair amount of damage. Against a normal 1 gate FE, though, it might not be so bad-- you'll only be expanding about a minute slower, and picking up a few probes shouldn't be so hard. It's pretty clear Mvp decided to go for a 1-gas Starport rush before he scouted Squirtle, since he started his Factory without a second gas well before he scouted the greedy 1 gate FE.
I feel like this build could be viable for doing some damage, especially on maps where you're vulnerable to drops or hellion runbys at the nat, and being able to take map control from the zerg early unless he really invests into stalkers would be nice. It might even be guaranteed damage since you can hit two fronts at once pretty early, and it's not THAT uneconomical.
Does anyone else use (or has anyone ever used) a build like this? How does it fare against a 1gate FE or 15 Nexus build?
it should be pointed out he dropped the marines in the main and did a runby into the naturals with the hellions. Really using the structure of of Daybreaks natural. The only map that would allow for this tactic would be cloud kingdom but you can probably do this only slightly less well on other maps.
It's really not that great of a build if the protoss just defends, they get way ahead. It just so happened that squirtle was out on the map and didn't warp in at home...so the game ended up in one of the very few situations where squirtle would just die imo.
Also it's not that it's not economical, but assuming the protoss can somehow defend, you're left with no units. It's like going gas first banshee expo in TvT - you never cut econ and get a super fast banshee, at the cost of having nothing else. In this case, you have a factory, reactor, starport, but no seige tanks, no banshees, no maruders: only plain, unupgraded marines. Holding something like a 6gate robo/holding a sentry gateway push/holding Squirtle 2base collusus/being able to punish a Toss who takes a 3rd right after holding your push are all things to consider. With such a late stim, you're stuck at home till about 10 minutes and don't have nearly as many units as you would off a 1rax expo.
So I think the best response by a Toss facing this build is to hold it, lose ~6 probes, warp in units to force extra bunkers while taking a 3rd and spending all chronos on probes. Force 1/2 bunkers in front and maybe probe pull (remember, no stim or maruders so your units can always get away) while you catch up in eco and get a nice army. That or go for a committed bust, I'm not sure which one is best (factory for tanks makes a bust seem like you're playing into Terran hands if he does go tanks though).
As for mistakes Squirtle made: 1) Scouts no low ground expo. MVP could have gone for 1rax expo on high ground, but then the cost of playing slightly defensive would balance out by the economic hit of not going 1rax expo to low ground? If MVP had gone cloak banshee, Squritle would have been equally screwed. Squritle had no scouting of 1rax expo before he threw up the extra 3 gates. I think it's important to note how hilariously terrible Squritle played out this game.
Either have some sentry w/ 4gate or better yet, 3gate robo it. And play slightly defensive. Terran supposed to be strong now, why the fuck would you blindly move out across map against an opponent you haven't even seen expand? That's like a T moving out against a 6gate and losing cause all his troops get forcefielded (a side point to how stupid Squritle played this series; game 7 Squirtle holds the 11/11 with scv pull. The ONLY response left from MVP is to allin again, he's sacced so many scvs. Why on earth is Squritle leaving his base?).
So if Squritle was playing defensive like he should have, he pulls army to main to catch drop. Luckily sentries are super slow so are still probably in nat when hellions come, puts down some FF, maybe loses ~6 probes, takes 3rd, game goes on.
I don't think it's worth reading anything into this game given how terribly Squirtle played, you'd have to provide more examples of it in game.
As people mentioned, this build relaying on the fact that the prottos should be making mistakes. You need to understand, that whenever you're doing a strategy that relaying on eariler damage instead of solid eco opening, the opp defensive skills will be tested much more then ur harras skills, and therefore, u're basically gambling on something u dont have any control on (Your opp skills).
Considering this isnt allin - the real problem comes into the question of - "Did i do enough damage?" If he tottaly stoped you - you're miles away in eco and in army value. If you killed a few probes - you're still behind, as few probes isnt enough to come up with huge delay on expanding you have behind. If you killed more then few probes - you might have just equialized the game. a thing that could have happen in a standard 1 rax fe game.
Better just not gamble, and play standard - builds like that MVP did, are great for tournaments, cuz in tournaments theres a big factor of mindgames and mixing tactics.
On May 27 2012 21:41 dohgg wrote: As people mentioned, this build relaying on the fact that the prottos should be making mistakes. big factor of mindgames and mixing tactics.
This build is one of those that FORCES mistakes from the protoss. The multitasking ability required to hold a super early two prong attack off is no easy business, and most will just straight up die if greedy builds were played against a good controlled of this build
It should also be noted that this build is rather old on KR ladder. The most common build would be to drop 3 hellions in protoss base while 8 marines hit the front. It is extremely micro intensive, but shows how much better-multitasking and micro abilities can shine for terran players on ladder (even against diamond-master KR protosses you can see them fumble hardcore) There are many follow ups for this build (I.E. If more than 6 probes were killed a 2 port banshee follow up would insta-gib the protoss 90% of the time). Its best against protosses who go FE and greedy tech.
On May 27 2012 21:25 teamamerica wrote: So if Squritle was playing defensive like he should have, he pulls army to main to catch drop. Luckily sentries are super slow so are still probably in nat when hellions come, puts down some FF, maybe loses ~6 probes, takes 3rd, game goes on.
Its not easy defending against this when you play something greedy. When I execute it I make sure I show my units at his front so he thinks im going for some early push (1 rax FE into 4bb 16 marine push are quite common) which forces him to get all his units to the nat, then I do the hellion drop - he pulls the units to his base, my marine attacks up the ramp and shift attack his probe line (if he didnt get zealots he is fucked), and continue microing hellions for the probes while dropship pulls back. Mvp's switchup is very uncommon and is probably while squirtle got caught off guard. Also, depending on Mvp's follow up, sometimes 6 probes is all the damage he needs.
It's a pressure build thats designed to do some damage, killing 6 or so probes should be standard unless your opponent have gone extremely defensive and is 100% prepared, which he wont be unless he goes for the fastest robo ever.
What happened in this game was that Squirtle had expanded and then went for pressure with a 4gate after expand, his units was on the opposite side of the map, at this point it was kind of a lucky win for Mvp, but Squirtle also allowed his stalkers to get sorrounded by SCV's at Mvp's base, which is why he didn't do any damage in return, whether it would matter in the long run nobody knows.
On May 27 2012 21:10 avilo wrote: It's really not that great of a build if the protoss just defends, they get way ahead. It just so happened that squirtle was out on the map and didn't warp in at home...so the game ended up in one of the very few situations where squirtle would just die imo.
Even if squirtle was at home defending i still think mvp does good damage there. Lets say squirtle does a standard 1gate fe into 3gate robo and defends. He'd probably have a few stalkers in his main expecting banshee, observer on the way to mvp's base, and maybe a sentry and a zealot at his natural. As long as mvp is able to drop his units out without getting picked off, his units will easily overrun the few stalkers in his main. Then theres hellions in his natural picking off probes. I think its a very strong build actually against an fe protoss.
its funny because last shadow tried i believe this exact build against squirtle and he deflected it perfectly, if u want to learn how to effeciently play against the build watch that game, redbull lan
I saw this kind of build from Marineking and Bomber too and those are my thoughts to it.
By doing a fast tech to Medivacs and having this 4 Hellions you have great herrass potential after a 1 Gate expo. You stop the Protoss from beeing too greedy and with the scouting you can determine fast what tech the Protoss will be going first, so you have plenty of time preparing for it and hitting a good timing.
Your expandtion comes quite late, so normally you are at an economic disadvantage depending whether you can do damage or not. This shouldn´t be the overall goal. I think the goal is to pin the Protoss back at his base, so that you can get your Expo, Barracks and Upgrades going. The early scouting gives you enough time to prepare for hitting a timing aggainst his tech choice. For this i think you need a verry good gamesense and you need to know what timing works well aggainst his tech choice.
You will also leave the Protoss in a situation, where he doesn´t want to be in. By doing a 1-1-1 and denying his scouting about your expandtion he should still be thinking about a 1-1-1 allin and prepare for it.
Well, this is a pretty simple/basic/fundamental build. It's a 111 hellion drop into an expand. Basically, it's a substitute for a banshee opening into expand.
You achieve nearly the same tech, about the same expansion timing, and aim for the same goals; map control, pinning the protoss to stay home, killing some probes, scouting his tech, punishing greed, etc.
It can transition into mech too.
This kind of 111 opening can be better than a 111 banshee opening because cloak doesn't finish as fast, and because you can trick your opponent and/or catch him off guard by harassing two fronts. You got your hellions and marines. There are more units you have to be able to harass him in more places than just with 1 cloak banshee (and a 2nd one coming, but it's not there yet), hence there are more chances for your opponent to mess up. If he panics, you could easily roast a lot of probes, or if he reacts slowly, he can lose a couple more probes than he should have due to marines, which is quite a lot.
Another advantage over a banshee opener is that you can use the 8 marines for your army later, and you already have starport tech for medivac. You can just expand, add more rax, start upgrading, etc., and get back to "standard" pretty easily. The hellions can still be used for map control and to very easily and conveniently scout for proxylons and his expo timing, etc.
It's also safer than a cloak banshee opening in some ways because you have 8 marines you can use to defend home. If he comes and attacks you and has an obs, your banshee isn't going to do as much.
Basically, it's a decent build. Like any harass build though, there is a chance of failure, and the measure of success can vary widely. So part of the choice to use such a build is preference -- are you willing to take a risk? Maybe you are confident in your micro? Maybe you expect him to do a certain expo build that is too greedy, and know you can do enough damage to get ahead or, at worst, stay even?
@padfoota
Just wondering, are you talking about 2 port banshee on 1 base? Also do you think that is the best follow up to finish him off, or is that build good moreso because it can catch the protoss off guard? Thanks in advance!
Just wondering, are you talking about 2 port banshee on 1 base? Also do you think that is the best follow up to finish him off, or is that build good moreso because it can catch the protoss off guard? Thanks in advance!
Yep. Off one base. A 2port banshee build off one base, if executed properly with a raven, is only hard countered by stargate play + cannons. The raven begins to build right after medevac comes out so itll be out just before observer gets to our base, and as long as you can snipe the obs before he sees the starports (hide them well) it should be instant gg once you have 4. It works exceptionally well when toss is trying to power drones or some form of counter attack right after your double attack and then bam, cloakshees everywhere. 99% of protoss players (past diamond) will have obs run straight to your main first, so once raven is out i tend to be scrolling everywhere trying to snipe that fucker.
I must warn you tho, you'll feel like a total retard after winning with it :/. Its just...the difference in intensity compared to most other pressure/rush builds (1-1-1 control marine, raven, siege tanks, focus fire with them), (TvZ shift focus fire with tank, stim spread stutter marines), (hellion marauder 5 scv 2 marine rush against toss insane micro >_>), (hellion openers TvZ), (Viking Hellion/ Hellion reaper opener tvt) is just so insane...its almost hard to get used to....if you went for standard 3 hellion drop, you'll lose the hellions, which is 6 probes worth at least. If you used marines too chances are you will kill 10+, and if the protoss is a player not used to being dropped with hellions and runs the probes - 20 probes easy, and the banshee follow up just allows you to bypass forcefield defense and outright kill him.
Summary as I tend to type messy - 1. Off one base AFTER hellion drop + 8 marine 2. As a follow up and also as a backup plan, although it never really works for backup. Its an extremely great follow up, since when you deal lots of damage with the build and kept up macro, protoss players will generally go defensive mode and spam chrono on probes to try and catch up. The banshee follow up allows you to bypass the forcefield defense, and since he is probing, no way in hell he'll have phoenixes out if you sniped obs. As a backup is when not enough damage is dealt and the guy is coming at you since he opened some defensive robo play expecting 1-1-1 and went immortals. I fuck up macroing most of the time when executing the rush so when his push comes i never get enough stuff to defend :/
Just wondering, are you talking about 2 port banshee on 1 base? Also do you think that is the best follow up to finish him off, or is that build good moreso because it can catch the protoss off guard? Thanks in advance!
Yep. Off one base. A 2port banshee build off one base, if executed properly with a raven, is only hard countered by stargate play + cannons. The raven begins to build right after medevac comes out so itll be out just before observer gets to our base, and as long as you can snipe the obs before he sees the starports (hide them well) it should be instant gg once you have 4. It works exceptionally well when toss is trying to power drones or some form of counter attack right after your double attack and then bam, cloakshees everywhere. 99% of protoss players (past diamond) will have obs run straight to your main first, so once raven is out i tend to be scrolling everywhere trying to snipe that fucker.
I must warn you tho, you'll feel like a total retard after winning with it :/. Its just...the difference in intensity compared to most other pressure/rush builds (1-1-1 control marine, raven, siege tanks, focus fire with them), (TvZ shift focus fire with tank, stim spread stutter marines), (hellion marauder 5 scv 2 marine rush against toss insane micro >_>), (hellion openers TvZ), (Viking Hellion/ Hellion reaper opener tvt) is just so insane...its almost hard to get used to....if you went for standard 3 hellion drop, you'll lose the hellions, which is 6 probes worth at least. If you used marines too chances are you will kill 10+, and if the protoss is a player not used to being dropped with hellions and runs the probes - 20 probes easy, and the banshee follow up just allows you to bypass forcefield defense and outright kill him.
Summary as I tend to type messy - 1. Off one base AFTER hellion drop + 8 marine 2. As a follow up and also as a backup plan, although it never really works for backup. Its an extremely great follow up, since when you deal lots of damage with the build and kept up macro, protoss players will generally go defensive mode and spam chrono on probes to try and catch up. The banshee follow up allows you to bypass the forcefield defense, and since he is probing, no way in hell he'll have phoenixes out if you sniped obs. As a backup is when not enough damage is dealt and the guy is coming at you since he opened some defensive robo play expecting 1-1-1 and went immortals. I fuck up macroing most of the time when executing the rush so when his push comes i never get enough stuff to defend :/
On May 29 2012 06:13 MasterKang wrote: just saying this is an extremely common build that all terrans employ. it's pretty mcuh an auto-win against FFE and really good against nexus first.
Well, any 12 rax 13 gas opener can auto-win against a 15 Nexus -> Forge build, since that build is designed to play against gasless expos. I was more thinking about how it plays against less greedy Fes than the one Squirtle used.
You don't even need to play a macro game with this. You can straight up transtition into a marine tank timing/all-in to take advantage of your opponents weakened economy.
People are giving the protoss WAY too much credit and faith in terms of the perfect defense.
I just played this build 3 times (with poor execution since I was just doing everything by feel) on ladder (China mid-high masters) and I got 10-18 probe kills every time which put me vastly ahead.
Think about it, you have a medivac full of marines dropping the toss's main, which makes the toss pull usually more than half of his ~7 units to defend. Then you run in FOUR hellions, into his natural full of probes. ~10 probe kills is almost guaranteed, and I don't even lose my medivac or any marines - just pick up the marines and go home right after his units are out of position.
If the toss then run his units back to his natural, just run your hellions away and come back with the medivac. Even if you don't score any additional probe kills, the economic damage from lost mining time is MASSIVE on part of the toss.
People in the strategy forums are all top 3 Korean GM when it comes to theorycrafting... If MvP had success with it, go try out the build yourself before discrediting the it.
This build is actually fairly common and very deadly. It was first used by TLO when the game first came out on Scrap Station. Since then I've seen Demuslim, MKP, Supernova, and MVP utilize it. It is one of the reasons you can't blind go 1 gate expo into robo without adding gates even if you scout factory tech.
Everyone and their mother has done this build. It's just a different variation of 111 which can either all in or expand, very dependent on damage done either way. It's really not guaranteed good damage if the Protoss anticipates it in any way. I do plenty of hellion-based all ins on ladder and they are hit and miss as much as they are fun. FE into fast Robo is probably best case scenario for Terran with this build.
It's actually really easy to defend this if he just moves his natural's probes to his main before the hellions are there. Forcefield ramp and defend the naked marine drop
EPT
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