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On May 03 2012 07:59 Sovern wrote:
Marine Tank has always been viable. In my opinion it is the best late game unit composition within reason that Terran can get against Protoss for a few reasons. Marines in high numbers melt gateway unit compositions and the effectiveness of the marines scales with the Terran players ability to micro. Tanks are good at just that, tanking, they're great to fall back pon as your medivacs heal your marines and they also deal with collosus quite well and support marines high dps cabilitys very well.
Marine/Ghost/Tank is way under used yet its better than standard MMMVG, once you get to the late game you can start sacking SCV's and replacing them with ghosts and Marine/Medivac/Tank/Ghost melts any Toss unit composition that I can think of as long as you have good marine control.
Tanks get exponentially worse the longer the game goes on and they are just dead supply. Honestly if you win games with this composition I can't imagine your opponent being any good. Against any amount of chargelots there is no reason to build any tanks at all. I mean sure if you have a really defensive position and the Protoss runs into you and gets emped really badly you can evaporate a Protoss army but you can do that as well without tanks and if the Protoss is smart he will never engage like that and force you out of position with warp prism harass and blink while out-expanding you.
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On May 03 2012 01:51 Azzur wrote:
Yep, I agree that this is a trend - and MKP has showcased this several times as well. The advantage of tanks is that it helps safeguard against sentry all-ins. After that, it's useful for attacts for it helps control space.
If you get tanks, you die to blinkstalker all-in's and immortal pushes due to lack of MM.
It's okay in the mid game before the Protoss has much tech, but terrible after that.
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You do not just 'die' to blink stalker allins and immortal pushes. Please demonstrate some game knowledge like specific timings and reasoning to support your claim.
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On May 03 2012 08:40 Baum wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 07:59 Sovern wrote:
Marine Tank has always been viable. In my opinion it is the best late game unit composition within reason that Terran can get against Protoss for a few reasons. Marines in high numbers melt gateway unit compositions and the effectiveness of the marines scales with the Terran players ability to micro. Tanks are good at just that, tanking, they're great to fall back pon as your medivacs heal your marines and they also deal with collosus quite well and support marines high dps cabilitys very well.
Marine/Ghost/Tank is way under used yet its better than standard MMMVG, once you get to the late game you can start sacking SCV's and replacing them with ghosts and Marine/Medivac/Tank/Ghost melts any Toss unit composition that I can think of as long as you have good marine control. Tanks get exponentially worse the longer the game goes on and they are just dead supply. Honestly if you win games with this composition I can't imagine your opponent being any good. Against any amount of chargelots there is no reason to build any tanks at all. I mean sure if you have a really defensive position and the Protoss runs into you and gets emped really badly you can evaporate a Protoss army but you can do that as well without tanks and if the Protoss is smart he will never engage like that and force you out of position with warp prism harass and blink while out-expanding you.
I dont just mass tanks with marines, the sweet spot is around 3-5 tanks. They're good for buying your marines time to heal up while simontaniusly allowing your tanks to deal splash damage to whatever units are at the toss's front. With my build if they mass chargelot I pretty much autpo win because mass marine/ghost/with 3-5 tanks melts chargelots like they're hot butter. I cant stand playing marine/marauder/ghost, one fuck up like not making enough vikings or getting stormed because you have no ghosts at the time can cost you the game where as if you have a few strong defensive units like tanks and even bunkers to set up a defensive position on the map the toss is the one with the burden of having to be careful to not fuck up and engage improperly just because if he pushes at the wrong time and you have 50+ marines left hes in a lot of trouble.
I think that more terrans should try out playing defensively with marines in bunkers/planetarys spread out, a long with siege tanks and ghosts. It seems like it has a ton of potential and it switches the meta game around to the point where the toss should be the one worried about the late game if the terran can just cut off the map and deny expansions with planetarys, bunkers, and siege tanks, and maybe ghosts for nukes and kep emps.
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Nerf chargelots or make hellions just as good as they used to be. Mech isn't viable anymore.
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United Kingdom20318 Posts
On May 03 2012 13:11 sinisterrtheory wrote:
Nerf chargelots or make hellions just as good as they used to be. Mech isn't viable anymore.
The protoss early and midgame army core (unless you are all in, and you terrans really seem to love that) is almost entirely zealots. Want to nerf them? It would hit protoss harder than nerfing marines would hit terran in the current metagame.
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The re-emerging of tanks is the response to Protoss players who cut a lot of corners when they identify 1 rax FE. If you think about it, tanks are most commonly used these days after a 1 rax FE where Terran goes quick double gas as soon as they've put down that expansion. The reason why this is happening is because the past two months or so, a lot of Protoss players have abused the fact that 1 rax FE generally means theres no need for detection and you also have a timing window to deal damage with a 3, 5 or 6 gate, after taking your own expansion. This has resulted in Protoss players skipping robo entirely to get faster 1-1 and 2-2 upgrades of a double forge, or take the parting build where you double expand as protoss and then go 8 warpgate aggression which is really tough to ever come out ahead against if you are doing a 1 rax FE bio.
In order to punish this, terrans started doing the double gas after FE because it enables them to get cloaked banshees while slowly building up a tank count that can be used for
1) Defense against 2 base warpgate aggression such as the 6 gate or the PartinG build.
2) If you deal damage with your cloaked banshees you have a timing window to hit with a "delayed" 1-1-1 push to deny or kill a protoss third.
TL;DR: What Terrans are trying to say is "stop being so greedy and stop cutting corners" or we wouldn't see tanks used very much at all (except as a key opponent in the 1-1-1 of course).
The later the game goes, the more they become dead supply. If you get past the midgame you are better off sacking them and replace them with another ghost or a couple of vikings.
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Hey just a question, anyone remember MKP vs Parting on Metropolis? Maybe it's been answered elsewhere, but I'm wondering why MKP didn't get siege mode even after he fended off Parting's pressure? He kept pressuring with marine tank medivac and just attacked unsieged and picked up tanks when they got low on HP.
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On May 03 2012 14:03 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Hey just a question, anyone remember MKP vs Parting on Metropolis? Maybe it's been answered elsewhere, but I'm wondering why MKP didn't get siege mode even after he fended off Parting's pressure? He kept pressuring with marine tank medivac and just attacked unsieged and picked up tanks when they got low on HP.
It was very obvious that siege mode wouldn't have helped MKP at all in this situation. Tanks have a relatively high dps unsieged and it s possible to kite with them because of this MKP was able to trade way better than expected. He used the tanks to buffer some hits from the zealots and then kite backwards with different parts of his army. If MKP would have gotten Siege mode the Zealots would have charged forward and he would have had to move back his marines to not take too much damage from friendly fire and then his tanks would have been exposed while not being able to pull them back. Since tanks in such low numbers don't have nearly enough burst damage using them unsieged gives you better dps and microability and you only lose a bit of splash which is more of a detriment in this situation anyway because of friendly fire.
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On May 03 2012 13:54 dignitas.merz wrote:
The re-emerging of tanks is the response to Protoss players who cut a lot of corners when they identify 1 rax FE. If you think about it, tanks are most commonly used these days after a 1 rax FE where Terran goes quick double gas as soon as they've put down that expansion. The reason why this is happening is because the past two months or so, a lot of Protoss players have abused the fact that 1 rax FE generally means theres no need for detection and you also have a timing window to deal damage with a 3, 5 or 6 gate, after taking your own expansion. This has resulted in Protoss players skipping robo entirely to get faster 1-1 and 2-2 upgrades of a double forge, or take the parting build where you double expand as protoss and then go 8 warpgate aggression which is really tough to ever come out ahead against if you are doing a 1 rax FE bio.
In order to punish this, terrans started doing the double gas after FE because it enables them to get cloaked banshees while slowly building up a tank count that can be used for
1) Defense against 2 base warpgate aggression such as the 6 gate or the PartinG build.
2) If you deal damage with your cloaked banshees you have a timing window to hit with a "delayed" 1-1-1 push to deny or kill a protoss third.
TL;DR: What Terrans are trying to say is "stop being so greedy and stop cutting corners" or we wouldn't see tanks used very much at all (except as a key opponent in the 1-1-1 of course).
The later the game goes, the more they become dead supply. If you get past the midgame you are better off sacking them and replace them with another ghost or a couple of vikings.
It's not really punishing P for their greed really but rather letting T be greedy without having to worry as much about what type of aggression P could be planning. The tanks are not really great for punishing a greedy protoss, they are simply good against mass sentries and fast colossi. The cloaked banshees are just one option and not really that popular.
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This Build is really good If your opponent Has been agressive on 2 base to defend. I think the Magic number is 3 or 4. MMA Uses this a lot in IEM and Also MKP. :D
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I do hope people have checked out Lyyna's TvP mech guide here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=323003
I'd like to see more people explore this defensive style of terran. The terran metagame has been largely built around aggression and mobility, so I think a lot of terrans will struggle with not attacking whilst using a mech army. Most mech attacks I've seen in higher level games have either been with less than 4 tanks and/or never on more than 2 bases.
You can read the guide and make your own opinions about it, however a few pros have played with the concept of a terran deathball for some time. Famously Gumiho did a beautiful mech TvZ vs Nestea in WCG 2011 groups, but a terran deathball is something I think people should explore further. The image that thors, tanks, banshees, battlecruisers, ravens and hellions are all bad, or one-trick ponies, in TvP is probably quite false. People do run scared of HT feedbacks, but if your army is mostly energy units scattered both in front and behind tanks and the HT reach them all then I'd be shocked.
Anyway, check out the guide. I do want to see more mech mixed into TvP play. Perhaps it still will require a buff, and perhaps battle hellions in HotS is all that's required, but I'd like to see it.
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I think it should be noted that Supernova has been using tanks in TvP since he was in Code A for the first time. In fact, in his latest match against HerO, he was using his classic three siege tank push. Very effective, and it can make for an amazing contain (especially if you can get the upgrades to deal with armor upgrades on zealots which are currently so popular).
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On May 03 2012 23:32 Nuclease wrote:
I think it should be noted that Supernova has been using tanks in TvP since he was in Code A for the first time. In fact, in his latest match against HerO, he was using his classic three siege tank push. Very effective, and it can make for an amazing contain (especially if you can get the upgrades to deal with armor upgrades on zealots which are currently so popular).
The problem is Chargelots are still ridiculously strong versus Tanks and Bio. Supernova had 3 bunkers up, a bunch of tanks in good position, medivacs and this was AFTER he successfully held the 4 gate of Hero.
Nonetheless, Hero with a few sentries, a few HT and A LOT of Chargelots just walked down the ramp, into the defensive position, and decimated it. I mean the trade wasn't even cost efficient for the Terran. The Protoss simply garnered a huge supply lead and finished the game.
And this was with 3 bunkers, seiged tanks, SCVs and a good mmm force. If tanks do come into style, it's clear what unit composition counters them.
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On May 03 2012 18:57 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 13:54 dignitas.merz wrote:
The re-emerging of tanks is the response to Protoss players who cut a lot of corners when they identify 1 rax FE. If you think about it, tanks are most commonly used these days after a 1 rax FE where Terran goes quick double gas as soon as they've put down that expansion. The reason why this is happening is because the past two months or so, a lot of Protoss players have abused the fact that 1 rax FE generally means theres no need for detection and you also have a timing window to deal damage with a 3, 5 or 6 gate, after taking your own expansion. This has resulted in Protoss players skipping robo entirely to get faster 1-1 and 2-2 upgrades of a double forge, or take the parting build where you double expand as protoss and then go 8 warpgate aggression which is really tough to ever come out ahead against if you are doing a 1 rax FE bio.
In order to punish this, terrans started doing the double gas after FE because it enables them to get cloaked banshees while slowly building up a tank count that can be used for
1) Defense against 2 base warpgate aggression such as the 6 gate or the PartinG build.
2) If you deal damage with your cloaked banshees you have a timing window to hit with a "delayed" 1-1-1 push to deny or kill a protoss third.
TL;DR: What Terrans are trying to say is "stop being so greedy and stop cutting corners" or we wouldn't see tanks used very much at all (except as a key opponent in the 1-1-1 of course).
The later the game goes, the more they become dead supply. If you get past the midgame you are better off sacking them and replace them with another ghost or a couple of vikings. It's not really punishing P for their greed really but rather letting T be greedy without having to worry as much about what type of aggression P could be planning. The tanks are not really great for punishing a greedy protoss, they are simply good against mass sentries and fast colossi. The cloaked banshees are just one option and not really that popular.
If this were true we would see T's take a 3rd or run double ebay behind the tanks. However, neither of these are true, if you look at how people play tank openings. You simply can't afford it because of how expensive tanks are.
The difference between TvZ and TvP is that P's hive starts at 11-12m, so there's practically no room to power up without letting your opponent get really ahead.
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On May 03 2012 13:54 dignitas.merz wrote:
The re-emerging of tanks is the response to Protoss players who cut a lot of corners when they identify 1 rax FE. If you think about it, tanks are most commonly used these days after a 1 rax FE where Terran goes quick double gas as soon as they've put down that expansion. The reason why this is happening is because the past two months or so, a lot of Protoss players have abused the fact that 1 rax FE generally means theres no need for detection and you also have a timing window to deal damage with a 3, 5 or 6 gate, after taking your own expansion. This has resulted in Protoss players skipping robo entirely to get faster 1-1 and 2-2 upgrades of a double forge, or take the parting build where you double expand as protoss and then go 8 warpgate aggression which is really tough to ever come out ahead against if you are doing a 1 rax FE bio.
In order to punish this, terrans started doing the double gas after FE because it enables them to get cloaked banshees while slowly building up a tank count that can be used for
1) Defense against 2 base warpgate aggression such as the 6 gate or the PartinG build.
2) If you deal damage with your cloaked banshees you have a timing window to hit with a "delayed" 1-1-1 push to deny or kill a protoss third.
TL;DR: What Terrans are trying to say is "stop being so greedy and stop cutting corners" or we wouldn't see tanks used very much at all (except as a key opponent in the 1-1-1 of course).
The later the game goes, the more they become dead supply. If you get past the midgame you are better off sacking them and replace them with another ghost or a couple of vikings.
Thank you Merz. People are too narrow minded to look past just the game they see. You see tanks in 1 GSL match and people are crying "ZOMG TANK PRO NOW!". No. Stop and think. Nothing has changed since 3 months ago regarding the tank and TvP, except the metagame.
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On May 04 2012 02:48 architecture wrote:
If this were true we would see T's take a 3rd or run double ebay behind the tanks. However, neither of these are true, if you look at how people play tank openings. You simply can't afford it because of how expensive tanks are.
http://sc2casts.com/cast7991-MarineKing-vs-PartinG-Best-of-3-MLG-Winter-Championship-Winners-Semifinal
This is the classic use of tanks in TvP imo. MKP uses tanks to stay safe early on, then get a third while containing Parting. Note that just because MKP wins outright with his contain, doesn't mean he was depending on that. Even if Parting had busted out of that contain MKP would still have been in a great position.
Tanks are just super strong in choke points, you don't even need many to have a significant effect. Having three tanks does not gimp the rest of your army, but in certain situations they are worth far more than their cost.
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On May 04 2012 02:57 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 13:54 dignitas.merz wrote:
The re-emerging of tanks is the response to Protoss players who cut a lot of corners when they identify 1 rax FE. If you think about it, tanks are most commonly used these days after a 1 rax FE where Terran goes quick double gas as soon as they've put down that expansion. The reason why this is happening is because the past two months or so, a lot of Protoss players have abused the fact that 1 rax FE generally means theres no need for detection and you also have a timing window to deal damage with a 3, 5 or 6 gate, after taking your own expansion. This has resulted in Protoss players skipping robo entirely to get faster 1-1 and 2-2 upgrades of a double forge, or take the parting build where you double expand as protoss and then go 8 warpgate aggression which is really tough to ever come out ahead against if you are doing a 1 rax FE bio.
In order to punish this, terrans started doing the double gas after FE because it enables them to get cloaked banshees while slowly building up a tank count that can be used for
1) Defense against 2 base warpgate aggression such as the 6 gate or the PartinG build.
2) If you deal damage with your cloaked banshees you have a timing window to hit with a "delayed" 1-1-1 push to deny or kill a protoss third.
TL;DR: What Terrans are trying to say is "stop being so greedy and stop cutting corners" or we wouldn't see tanks used very much at all (except as a key opponent in the 1-1-1 of course).
The later the game goes, the more they become dead supply. If you get past the midgame you are better off sacking them and replace them with another ghost or a couple of vikings. Thank you Merz. People are too narrow minded to look past just the game they see. You see tanks in 1 GSL match and people are crying "ZOMG TANK PRO NOW!". No. Stop and think. Nothing has changed since 3 months ago regarding the tank and TvP, except the metagame.
Merz is exactlly right here. I enjoyed reading that.
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Merz is right but SupLilSon is choosing to interpret his words in a very biased way.
To say that nothing has changed except the metagame is just stating the obvious, what else do you expect to change? With the meta game in it's current state being able to use tanks effectively is a powerful tool in TvP. But hey if other people want to ignore tanks that's fine by me, I know how useful they can be and I will continue to use them as part of my arsenal.
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On May 04 2012 03:22 Willzzz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 02:48 architecture wrote:
If this were true we would see T's take a 3rd or run double ebay behind the tanks. However, neither of these are true, if you look at how people play tank openings. You simply can't afford it because of how expensive tanks are.
http://sc2casts.com/cast7991-MarineKing-vs-PartinG-Best-of-3-MLG-Winter-Championship-Winners-SemifinalThis is the classic use of tanks in TvP imo. MKP uses tanks to stay safe early on, then get a third while containing Parting. Note that just because MKP wins outright with his contain, doesn't mean he was depending on that. Even if Parting had busted out of that contain MKP would still have been in a great position. Tanks are just super strong in choke points, you don't even need many to have a significant effect. Having three tanks does not gimp the rest of your army, but in certain situations they are worth far more than their cost.
interesting mkp creating new builds all the time.
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EPT
