EPT[D] The re-emerging of tanks in TvP - Page 2
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Baum
Germany1010 Posts
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Baum
Germany1010 Posts
On May 03 2012 03:40 Willzzz wrote: On most maps you can position your tanks to cover blink stalkers. Depends how many different points of entrance there are, I certainly remember a game on Tal'darim where a terran player used tanks very effectively against a determined blink stalker attack. That was MMA against Feast and honestly Feast botched that game because he let MMA mine from a hidden expansion. Also MMA used a 13 gas into quick factory build because he knew feast likes to do one base gateway all ins but this is even a bigger gamble than the gasless expands into tank builds we are talking about in this thread. If you try to gasless expand into 2 rax factory against one base blink you are just dead. | ||
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crocodile
United States615 Posts
3 Gate Robo double forge will put you behind because Protoss will have the tech and upgrades to nullify the tanks that you've invested in and you will be on even economies, so you've essentially spend a bunch of money on useless tech and delayed your upgrades/medivacs while the Protoss has been spending money on things that are good against you regardless of whether you opened with 1 rax FE into tanks or your completely standard 1 rax FE into 3 rax stim medivac timing. | ||
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Baum
Germany1010 Posts
On May 03 2012 03:48 crocodile wrote: You're vulnerable to 1 base attacks because you only have 1-2 barracks producing units while you tech. 3 Gate Robo double forge will put you behind because Protoss will have the tech and upgrades to nullify the tanks that you've invested in and you will be on even economies, so you've essentially spend a bunch of money on useless tech and delayed your upgrades/medivacs while the Protoss has been spending money on things that are good against you regardless of whether you opened with 1 rax FE into tanks or your completely standard 1 rax FE into 3 rax stim medivac timing. Exactly. | ||
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vBr
Sweden193 Posts
I found out however that it was troublesome to manage these things moderatly early. I didn't get to start upgrades until 8 min which from experience is way behind what a standard FE into 3 rax. The benefit of such an opening, I felt, was lost if the tanks ended up serving no purpose.. ohwell.. | ||
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
I fail to see how the tanks become nullified/useless vs a robo build? You don't have to go overboard with tank production anyway, 3 is usually a good number. | ||
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vBr
Sweden193 Posts
On May 03 2012 04:02 Willzzz wrote: Good memory on that MMA vs Feast game. I don't think this thread is purely about gasless FE, the OP didn't say that. In any case MMA hardly rushed for tanks, you can get tanks just as fast with a double gas after expo. You react to your opponent and get whichever units you need at the time you need them. I fail to see how the tanks become nullified/useless vs a robo build? You don't have to go overboard with tank production anyway, 3 is usually a good number. Actually, I feel that a reactor hellion expand opener would be more suitable. Proceed then by 2 hellions, maybe 4 on certain maps before swapping over factory to a TL and start tank production. The reason for this is that 2 early hellions have the potential to deal a world of trouble for a protoss and does, at the very least, get a good scout to see what the protoss is up to, which makes it possible to tailor your followup in the appropriate fashion. | ||
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
On May 03 2012 01:47 vthree wrote: Tanks are great when tech is low... Once things like charge, blink, upgrades come into play, their effectiveness is drastically decreased. Also, bio rallies on kiting vs protoss. So you either kite and leave you tanks exposed or you don't kite and get killed by zealots and your own tank fire. I totally agree with this. They're great before upgrades come in or when they're low, but pretty useless later in the game because of how fast the battles end and their low rate of fire. That's not to say they're useless though, timing attacks are legitimate part of the game. I also want to point out MVP's decision making when he went tanks. Where he chose to engage and how he positioned the tanks was so smart, something most people don't do. | ||
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Supah
708 Posts
Tanks are extremely reactionary, the Toss expo always goes down before you even get gas (or even a second rax, for the most part). Doble Forge Robo is on 2 base until about 13-14 minutes, at the earliest for the most part. You're free to take your third, because Toss invests so much on tech rather than units, and pressure is possible, because Tanks will destroy Sentries just fine if you target fire. In addition, tanks punish poor positioning as well as make you safe against pretty much any Gateway all in variation. It's like saying getting Sentries early (more than 1) is bad, because eventually you'll want a limited amount of FFs so your Chargelots don't end up with only half the Terran army late game. They have their uses early, and in limited capacity as the game goes on. | ||
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
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Mowr
Sweden791 Posts
The cost will be your nice 10-11 min drops. | ||
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Baum
Germany1010 Posts
On May 03 2012 04:01 vBr wrote: I played around with the idea of opening with some tank build and following up with double upgrades, a third cc inbase and then like 7 rax. I found out however that it was troublesome to manage these things moderatly early. I didn't get to start upgrades until 8 min which from experience is way behind what a standard FE into 3 rax. The benefit of such an opening, I felt, was lost if the tanks ended up serving no purpose.. ohwell.. A standard FE into 3 rax will definitely have later upgrades and normally you can't afford to go double upgrades unless you delay the starport tech. The tanks allow you to delay the techlab upgrades which are absolutely key if you go 3 rax after CC. Sure if the Protoss plays greedy as well you will be even in upgrades and you don't have the possibility to pressure the Protoss third but you can still enter the late game in a good position because normally you will have to do damage against a 3 base Protoss with quick upgrades or you will have no way of winning but because you are even in upgrades and have access to six geysirs quickly you can get a good number of ghosts and vikings pretty easily without being vulnerable to upgrade timings. On May 03 2012 04:09 Supah wrote: Tanks are extremely reactionary, the Toss expo always goes down before you even get gas (or even a second rax, for the most part). Doble Forge Robo is on 2 base until about 13-14 minutes, at the earliest for the most part. You're free to take your third, because Toss invests so much on tech rather than units, and pressure is possible, because Tanks will destroy Sentries just fine if you target fire. In addition, tanks punish poor positioning as well as make you safe against pretty much any Gateway all in variation. It's like saying getting Sentries early (more than 1) is bad, because eventually you'll want a limited amount of FFs so your Chargelots don't end up with only half the Terran army late game. They have their uses early, and in limited capacity as the game goes on. I am not sure what your point is here. If you go for a tank push against the standard 2 base 3 gate robo double forge build you won't do any damage at all and are way behind. If you play the defensive version with a quick third and upgrades the game will be even because Protoss will scout you with an obs and get a quicker third as normal. | ||
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crocodile
United States615 Posts
On May 03 2012 04:09 Supah wrote: Tanks are extremely reactionary, the Toss expo always goes down before you even get gas (or even a second rax, for the most part). Doble Forge Robo is on 2 base until about 13-14 minutes, at the earliest for the most part. You're free to take your third, because Toss invests so much on tech rather than units, and pressure is possible, because Tanks will destroy Sentries just fine if you target fire. In addition, tanks punish poor positioning as well as make you safe against pretty much any Gateway all in variation. It's like saying getting Sentries early (more than 1) is bad, because eventually you'll want a limited amount of FFs so your Chargelots don't end up with only half the Terran army late game. They have their uses early, and in limited capacity as the game goes on. ...What? You basically just said a bunch of things that we've already established are true about tanks, but then failed to elaborate on them or draw a conclusion. You can't take a 3rd against double forge 3 gate robo openers if you've opened with tanks, because you won't be able to hold it against any kind of pressure. Tanks are great for defending 2 base pressure, but at your 3rd base it'll get a bit dicey trying to defend. Sentries are not like tanks. Sentries are useful for Protoss all game long. Tanks significantly decrease in utility as the game goes on, and they take up more supply. You're behind against a 2 base teching protoss, there's no doubt about that. This build is strong vs protoss who take a quick 3rd or who try to be aggressive, and Naniwa was the latter. In game 3 of Nani vs Mvp, he stayed on 2 bases and teched, which is why he won. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
On May 03 2012 04:21 Baum wrote: I am not sure what your point is here. If you go for a tank push against the standard 2 base 3 gate robo double forge build you won't do any damage at all and are way behind. If you play the defensive version with a quick third and upgrades the game will be even because Protoss will scout you with an obs and get a quicker third as normal. So against the popular early gateway pressure builds this build is super strong, against standard the game is even. What's not to love? | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On May 03 2012 04:35 Willzzz wrote: So against the popular early gateway pressure builds this build is super strong, against standard the game is even. What's not to love? It's not super strong... Yea, tanks are great defensively but any smart Toss will reconsider a gateway push once they spot tanks. If Toss sees tanks it's a clear path to victory. | ||
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crocodile
United States615 Posts
On May 03 2012 04:35 SupLilSon wrote: There is no reemergence of tanks. They are just as bad as they have always been. They work in very specific situations on certain maps as part of a 2 base push. As seen by the game on Antiga between MVP and NaNi, the tank push is very iffy and relies a lot on your opponent being unprepared. Like someone mentioned earlier, tanks are good in the timing window before the Protoss starts opening up their tech paths but they are still horrid for any long term TvP plan. You're looking at the game in too simplistic of a way. It doesn't rely on your opponent being unprepared; it's a matter of being safe against 2 possible protoss mid game choices, while only slightly behind against the others. If you overextend as Mvp did, you can lose. If Nani had taken a 3rd that game, Mvp would've rolled over him. On May 03 2012 04:35 Willzzz wrote: So against the popular early gateway pressure builds this build is super strong, against standard the game is even. What's not to love? easy guide: early tanks > 2 base aggression > quick 3 base < 2 base tech < 1 base allins | ||
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vBr
Sweden193 Posts
On May 03 2012 04:35 SupLilSon wrote: There is no reemergence of tanks. They are just as bad as they have always been. They work in very specific situations on certain maps as part of a 2 base push. As seen by the game on Antiga between MVP and NaNi, the tank push is very iffy and relies a lot on your opponent being unprepared. Like someone mentioned earlier, tanks are good in the timing window before the Protoss starts opening up their tech paths but they are still horrid for any long term TvP plan. I don't think that game fully works as a barometer of the strength of his build. One has to remember that Naniwa dealt a serious blow to MVPs economy and I imagine that MVP hoped Naniwa had taken a greedy third when he moved out. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On May 03 2012 04:39 crocodile wrote: You're looking at the game in too simplistic of a way. It doesn't rely on your opponent being unprepared; it's a matter of being safe against 2 possible protoss mid game choices, while only slightly behind against the others. If you overextend as Mvp did, you can lose. If Nani had taken a 3rd that game, Mvp would've rolled over him. I honestly think MVP would have lost that game even if he hadn't overextended. Tank/marine is just not a good comp vs. Protoss. By the time MVP pushed, NaNi already had both charge and blink and was probably leading in upgrades. Tank/Marine just isn't a good comp vs. Protoss. MVP went ahead with his attack because he knew it was his only choice. NaNi harassed really well with the blink stalkers and mVP would have been very far behind if he didn't try to pressure. And realistically, we are only seeing tanks reemerge because Terran options vs Protoss have been limited to early - mid game timings, before tanks lose all value in TvP. | ||
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
On May 03 2012 04:37 SupLilSon wrote: It's not super strong... Yea, tanks are great defensively but any smart Toss will reconsider a gateway push once they spot tanks. If Toss sees tanks it's a clear path to victory. Neither Naniwa nor Parting reconsidered their pushes against tanks, they were already commited to their choices they made earlier in the games. You could reconsider, but I think you'll still be in a tough spot. On May 03 2012 04:39 crocodile wrote: easy guide: early tanks > 2 base aggression > quick 3 base < 2 base tech < 1 base allins Standard is weak to an all-in if you don't scout it, what's new? I have no idea why you think a tank opening is weak to 2 base tech which is basically standard toss. Why is it weak? | ||
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