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I use tanks in every single TvP I play. Early game, tanks rape face before high immortal counts, blink, high collsai counts, or charge.
Open gasless FE, go into cloakbanshee, then go to infantry/banshee/tank, push, take third behind push, drop more rax and double ebay and go about your standard play. Cloak banshees even the econ a vast majority of the time, and tanks make you safe from any kind of gateway/immortal pressure with bunkers.
TvP is my worst matchup, by far. Somehow I've raised my TvP to around 60-65% percent, and even taken a game on my smurf on ladder off a top 50 GM using a tank build.
You don't always have to play strictly to the late game, you can play for a strong 2 base push, with a fall back to standard play. It's VERY rare my push doesn't kill a fast third protoss completely, or trade armies and let me have my third up before theirs.
I win so much lately because every protoss and their mother sees a gasless FE, and plays SO FUCKING greedy that a 11-12 minute timing with 3-4 tanks, 4-6 banshees, and marine marauder stim cs shells and 2 medics just eats through their army.
Random few examples.
http://drop.sc/168800 vs 830 protoss
http://drop.sc/168801 vs top 40 GM protoss
It's very gimmicky, but if you scout correctly, and deny as much scouting as possible, you can do some insane damage that is almost impossible to lose from. Very very strong against parting style of fast third gateway armies, as many have said.
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United States8476 Posts
Tanks are extremely good versus gateway units without upgrades, but fair poorly versus chargelots, blink stalkers, immortals, and colossi. Thus, currently they're only used in 2 situations:
- As part of a 2 base push that requires a specific response from protoss.
- To defend against gateway pushes when the terran is doing something greedy, such as fast 2 base cloaked banshee, abnormally fast medivac drop, fast 3cc, or fast double eng bays. Usually tanks are employed when 2 of those greedy things are used.
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On May 03 2012 04:48 Willzzz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 04:37 SupLilSon wrote:
It's not super strong... Yea, tanks are great defensively but any smart Toss will reconsider a gateway push once they spot tanks. If Toss sees tanks it's a clear path to victory. Neither Naniwa nor Parting reconsidered their pushes against tanks, they were already commited to their choices they made earlier in the games. You could reconsider, but I think you'll still be in a tough spot. Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 04:39 crocodile wrote:
easy guide:
early tanks > 2 base aggression
> quick 3 base
< 2 base tech
< 1 base allins
Standard is weak to an all-in if you don't scout it, what's new? I have no idea why you think a tank opening is weak to 2 base tech which is basically standard toss. Why is it weak?
It has been explained multiple times in this thread.
On May 03 2012 03:48 crocodile wrote:
You're vulnerable to 1 base attacks because you only have 1-2 barracks producing units while you tech.
3 Gate Robo double forge will put you behind because Protoss will have the tech and upgrades to nullify the tanks that you've invested in and you will be on even economies, so you've essentially spend a bunch of money on useless tech and delayed your upgrades/medivacs while the Protoss has been spending money on things that are good against you regardless of whether you opened with 1 rax FE into tanks or your completely standard 1 rax FE into 3 rax stim medivac timing.
Also to elaborate: 1-2 Marines at a time while only getting 2nd rax after expanding is not enough to hold off 4 gateways worth of protoss units early on no matter how many bunkers you have.
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On May 03 2012 04:47 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 04:39 crocodile wrote:On May 03 2012 04:35 SupLilSon wrote:
There is no reemergence of tanks. They are just as bad as they have always been. They work in very specific situations on certain maps as part of a 2 base push. As seen by the game on Antiga between MVP and NaNi, the tank push is very iffy and relies a lot on your opponent being unprepared. Like someone mentioned earlier, tanks are good in the timing window before the Protoss starts opening up their tech paths but they are still horrid for any long term TvP plan. You're looking at the game in too simplistic of a way. It doesn't rely on your opponent being unprepared; it's a matter of being safe against 2 possible protoss mid game choices, while only slightly behind against the others. If you overextend as Mvp did, you can lose. If Nani had taken a 3rd that game, Mvp would've rolled over him. I honestly think MVP would have lost that game even if he hadn't overextended. Tank/marine is just not a good comp vs. Protoss. By the time MVP pushed, NaNi already had both charge and blink and was probably leading in upgrades. Tank/Marine just isn't a good comp vs. Protoss. MVP went ahead with his attack because he knew it was his only choice. NaNi harassed really well with the blink stalkers and mVP would have been very far behind if he didn't try to pressure. And realistically, we are only seeing tanks reemerge because Terran options vs Protoss have been limited to early - mid game timings, before tanks lose all value in TvP.
This is why I think you're looking at the game too simplistically.
First of all, if Mvp's doing something, it's because he's practiced it and he knows it works. He's fucking Mvp. He knows what he's doing, and to assume you know better than him is silly.
Second of all, he's not using Marine/Tank as his unit composition. He's not making Marine/Tank all game long and hoping it works. That build is a 2 base Marine/Tank/Banshee contain followed by a 3rd base and a transition back into standard bio play. Much more complex than 'going Marine/Tank.'
Third of all, the first three sentences in your post do not support the conclusion that follows. Naniwa's harassment and upgrade lead would have translated to a victory against a bio player as well. It does not in any way reflect on the strength of Marine/Tank as a composition, my point a paragraph above notwithstanding.
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On May 03 2012 05:02 crocodile wrote:
Also to elaborate: 1-2 Marines at a time while only getting 2nd rax after expanding is not enough to hold off 4 gateways worth of protoss units early on no matter how many bunkers you have.
Standard is only 3 rax, surely a factory is as good as having a third rax?
If what you say is true why aren't these code S protoss players 4 gating for a free win? I mean I guess the major thing is that you can't scout it, because gas goes down way after the probe has left.
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On May 03 2012 05:02 crocodile wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 04:48 Willzzz wrote:On May 03 2012 04:37 SupLilSon wrote:
It's not super strong... Yea, tanks are great defensively but any smart Toss will reconsider a gateway push once they spot tanks. If Toss sees tanks it's a clear path to victory. Neither Naniwa nor Parting reconsidered their pushes against tanks, they were already commited to their choices they made earlier in the games. You could reconsider, but I think you'll still be in a tough spot. On May 03 2012 04:39 crocodile wrote:
easy guide:
early tanks > 2 base aggression
> quick 3 base
< 2 base tech
< 1 base allins
Standard is weak to an all-in if you don't scout it, what's new? I have no idea why you think a tank opening is weak to 2 base tech which is basically standard toss. Why is it weak? It has been explained multiple times in this thread. Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 03:48 crocodile wrote:
You're vulnerable to 1 base attacks because you only have 1-2 barracks producing units while you tech.
3 Gate Robo double forge will put you behind because Protoss will have the tech and upgrades to nullify the tanks that you've invested in and you will be on even economies, so you've essentially spend a bunch of money on useless tech and delayed your upgrades/medivacs while the Protoss has been spending money on things that are good against you regardless of whether you opened with 1 rax FE into tanks or your completely standard 1 rax FE into 3 rax stim medivac timing. Also to elaborate: 1-2 Marines at a time while only getting 2nd rax after expanding is not enough to hold off 4 gateways worth of protoss units early on no matter how many bunkers you have.
....that's wrong. I hold 3-4 gate pressure just fine with 2 bunkers and SCVs surrounding on repair.
From there I know I need to cut the fast banshee, and get 2 tanks and siege out then banshee. Simple.
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What I didn't understand in G3 was why MVP didn't mass up on 2 base to 14m+ like he did in G1.
Maybe he thought he was ahead because of holding the stalkers+killing a bunch? Maybe he thought he was behind? Maybe he was afraid that storm would be completed before 14m (since P went up citadel instead of support bay), and completely nullify the push?
I wish we knew what his understanding was.
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On May 03 2012 04:49 iAmJeffReY wrote:I use tanks in every single TvP I play. Early game, tanks rape face before high immortal counts, blink, high collsai counts, or charge. Open gasless FE, go into cloakbanshee, then go to infantry/banshee/tank, push, take third behind push, drop more rax and double ebay and go about your standard play. Cloak banshees even the econ a vast majority of the time, and tanks make you safe from any kind of gateway/immortal pressure with bunkers. TvP is my worst matchup, by far. Somehow I've raised my TvP to around 60-65% percent, and even taken a game on my smurf on ladder off a top 50 GM using a tank build. You don't always have to play strictly to the late game, you can play for a strong 2 base push, with a fall back to standard play. It's VERY rare my push doesn't kill a fast third protoss completely, or trade armies and let me have my third up before theirs. I win so much lately because every protoss and their mother sees a gasless FE, and plays SO FUCKING greedy that a 11-12 minute timing with 3-4 tanks, 4-6 banshees, and marine marauder stim cs shells and 2 medics just eats through their army. Random few examples. http://drop.sc/168800 vs 830 protoss http://drop.sc/168801 vs top 40 GM protoss It's very gimmicky, but if you scout correctly, and deny as much scouting as possible, you can do some insane damage that is almost impossible to lose from. Very very strong against parting style of fast third gateway armies, as many have said.
Heh just saw Beastyqt do basically the same build to that same GM player. It seems a very solid build.
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United Kingdom20318 Posts
On May 03 2012 01:36 Viperbird wrote:
(Incoming brood war reference) In brood war, tanks did a lot more damage, and chargelots didn't exist. Dragoons were retarded at walking, and no blink of course. I think collosus/blink stalker is too mobile against a tank based army. Trying to defend your 3rd and 4th? Protoss just cliffwalks and blinks your main and kills all your factories and supply depots, gg. Also chargelots are extremely good against tanks. Other less common strats are good against tanks too, phoenix play, mothership (vortex the ball of tanks, win)
I would love to see tanks, but I don't think its very good
(Incoming brood war reference) In brood war, tanks did a lot more damage to light targets, and zealots only had a massive speed upgrade, not charge. Dragoons were retarded at walking and spread out automatically to avoid splash, and no blink of course. I think speedlot/goon/reaver is too mobile against a tank based army. Trying to defend your 3rd and 4th? Protoss just drops and recalls into your main and kills all your factories and supply depots, gg. Also stasis is extremely good against tanks. Other less common strats are good against tanks too, carrier play, bombing (drop a single unit on the ball of tanks, win)
I would love to see tanks, but I don't think its very good
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It's a good way to secure your fast expand while teching imo, it stops 2 base gateway all-ins very well at the very least. It also opens up a 2 base timing for Terran, (with medicacs, naked marines or with combat shield and/or stim, or even banshees) before both blink and charge are done, and before templars.
However it sacrifices bio upgrades speed. You get your stim much slower with this kind of build, and you most likely won't go for a double ebay straight away.
Eventually of course, you have to stop making siege tanks (no more than 4-5 I'd say), it's just an opening into at best a timing attack, not a stable midgame plan. Of course, lategame siege tanks are an even less used composition (like, never).
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Tanks seem to be a more map specific unit in TvP. They need the right terrain to be used effectively, otherwise you would probably be better off with just pure bio. At lower levels, I think a defensive or contain style might be better/ more viable than the amount of micro needed for pure bio though.
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On May 03 2012 06:33 Willzzz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 04:49 iAmJeffReY wrote:I use tanks in every single TvP I play. Early game, tanks rape face before high immortal counts, blink, high collsai counts, or charge. Open gasless FE, go into cloakbanshee, then go to infantry/banshee/tank, push, take third behind push, drop more rax and double ebay and go about your standard play. Cloak banshees even the econ a vast majority of the time, and tanks make you safe from any kind of gateway/immortal pressure with bunkers. TvP is my worst matchup, by far. Somehow I've raised my TvP to around 60-65% percent, and even taken a game on my smurf on ladder off a top 50 GM using a tank build. You don't always have to play strictly to the late game, you can play for a strong 2 base push, with a fall back to standard play. It's VERY rare my push doesn't kill a fast third protoss completely, or trade armies and let me have my third up before theirs. I win so much lately because every protoss and their mother sees a gasless FE, and plays SO FUCKING greedy that a 11-12 minute timing with 3-4 tanks, 4-6 banshees, and marine marauder stim cs shells and 2 medics just eats through their army. Random few examples. http://drop.sc/168800 vs 830 protoss http://drop.sc/168801 vs top 40 GM protoss It's very gimmicky, but if you scout correctly, and deny as much scouting as possible, you can do some insane damage that is almost impossible to lose from. Very very strong against parting style of fast third gateway armies, as many have said. Heh just saw Beastyqt do basically the same build to that same GM player. It seems a very solid build.
Aw wtf I thought I was original! God damnit. I get win after win of gateway 3/4 gate pressure protoss on certain maps where you can defend natural with double bunker. Like, cloud, daybreak, korhal, antiga, metropolis, and shakuras.
It's a great transition, if I could learn to get to standard play...but I either get crushed and lose there (greedy third, only 3 rax 1 fac 2 port, no way to reproduce fast) or straight up win with it.
There's nothing better than defending a gate pressure, barely, to have 2 banshees in their mineral line. They see them cross the map, and warp in stalkers thinkin hey, I'm fine now...and you cloak hahaha
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lots of terran have been doing this to me at diamond lvl.
pretty muc hpure marine/tank.
ive noticed that if i can survive his big pushes (especiall yif he allins me lol) i generally win lategame, but maybe its just me.
the big problem is if he can cross the map safely, and siege up near my natural, and just steamrol into my base.
if the terran tries to turtle, i can generally win with zealot drop harass, set up shop near his base, and blink into his main
if he unsieges to repel me, i win. if he doesnt, my stalkers slowly chew through his production and scvs
again, this is diamond level, so yea.
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They aren't meant for the long run. They're meant specifically for a timing to A) kill the 3rd base of the protoss while you take your own, B) kill the protoss if he's too greedy, or C) set up a big contain while you get up your 3rd
So it's not anymore significant than a 1-1-1 with tanks, it's just a really good build that can put you really far ahead in the long run. MKP does it a lot too.
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I think just a low amount of tanks (3 to 4) is really good for greedy plays. It let's you tech quicker while still being safe, other builds tend to be weak against mass gate attacks or fast colossi attacks (because you either tech too fast or too slow). Tanks are great for making you safe vs anything while playing very greedy if the map allows for some decent tank usage (natural a bit closed). Because you still have the option of fast drops or a 3-1-1 build you can pressure a quick third of toss quite well still which should be the norm against seeing tanks.
Lategame they aren't too good but a few tanks along with some smart walling and/or a planetary makes you quite safe against attacks, letting you drop at ease.
I think it's only logical tanks start seeing some use as you have the factory anyway and siege tech is relatively cheap.
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On May 03 2012 01:39 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 01:34 decaf wrote:
MKP used quite a few tank builds in the past, too.
I'm still not convinced that tank usage is solid play in TvP simply due to the fact that they have so low damage and nothing to really tank the damage. I think tank builds can be great for early pushes and contains but they don't stand a chance later on. Maybe with HotS and the battle hellion we will see a lot more tank usage, right now I'm just not convinced tank play offers a second playstyle. But we'll see. As a protoss player, tanks scare the crap out of me. They are so much one way damage and can take the wind out of any zealot push. I think they are under rated in the match up and suffer from the idea that the terran has to either go Mech or Bio, but cannot split the middle. I am not sure they can make it all the way to the end game, but they are scary as hell in the early and mid game.
The reason you don't really see bio/mech is because the upgrades only apply to one or the other.
We don't have a building that upgrades both our factory units, and our barracks units.. so it's either one or the other.
Unupgraded mech doesn't fair well at all vs 3/3 protoss chargelot/stalker/colossus/immortal/prettymuchanyunitprotossmakes
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Marine Tank has always been viable. In my opinion it is the best late game unit composition within reason that Terran can get against Protoss for a few reasons. Marines in high numbers melt gateway unit compositions and the effectiveness of the marines scales with the Terran players ability to micro. Tanks are good at just that, tanking, they're great to fall back pon as your medivacs heal your marines and they also deal with collosus quite well and support marines high dps cabilitys very well.
Marine/Ghost/Tank is way under used yet its better than standard MMMVG, once you get to the late game you can start sacking SCV's and replacing them with ghosts and Marine/Medivac/Tank/Ghost melts any Toss unit composition that I can think of as long as you have good marine control.
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Both of the Mvp games today @ gsl were 2base all-ins. You cannot take a third base with tanks. Sure Mvp was taking a third base in one of the games because he had killed naniwa's third and was unsure if he can end the game there (he did).
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You can definitly take a third CC with tanks......you dont need many tanks for them to be very effective. Actually I think that the sweet spot is around 4-6 tanks backed by marines/ a few ghosts for emps and medivacs.
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Tanks deal more damage unsieged than sieged if splash damage doesn't come into play. Unsieged, tanks deal more damage than unstinted marauders at longer range than marauders.
I like doing early tank pushes (no siege) and adding 1-2 tank into my late-game army just to up the dps potential by a tiny bit at no risk.
The real question (concerning mech) is when will Blizzard allow ground upgrades to improve assault mode Vikings to allow non-hellion mech support.
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EPT
